And Piper got his idea of grace from the flea market too!What do you think of Conditional Grace?
"If a philanthropist pays $80,000 for your college education on the condition that you graduate from high school, you have not earned the gift, but you met a condition. It is possible to meet a condition for receiving grace and yet not earn the grace. Conditional grace does not mean earned grace." John Piper in Future Grace pg 78-79.
What sayest thou?
Harty
What does a gift or grace have to do with conditions & earnings? John boy the Piper, using ESV teaches verbose nonsense.
Thomast
Our choices, behaviour, and decisions here in time carry consequences. There are many 'graces', or 'salvations', or condemnations, or consequences, for each. IF we do thus, we may expect such, etc. Eternal grace is without condition, withou...t any merit or action on our part, and utterly according to the sovereign will of God.
toMorrow
goofy! goofy means dumb, against all reason. I think Piper's use of "conditional grace" is goofy...makes no sense to me at all...like saying sweet vinegar or cold, hot soup, or what the blind guy saw...etc. you get the picture.
Harline
Conditional Grace .. scratching my head .. never heard of it .. it certainly does not apply to eternal salvation .. no way ... :)
Sing F Lau
Pathetic example to illustrate grace, and a complete misunderstanding of grace too. And there are so many mesmerized by Piper Boy of Hamlin. They shall be led to be drown in big river!
Supposing the young man had been dead, and he was raised to life, and then encouraged to work hard so that he may go to college, all expenses paid, that would be a little closer to grace. Even then, there is no conditional grace.
Eternal salvation by free grace is accompanied with many promises of temporal blessings. 80 grand to college is one of the temporal blessings a child of God can experience in this life if he is obedient to the Father's will. Even the language of 80 grand exudes the stench of wealth and prosperity gospel - such nearly always speak of spiritual blessing in term of mighty dollar!
He will slide further into that lie before too long, if God spare his life!
Leisure
Grace is not earned, else it is no more grace. It is by God's grace that we have salvation through Christ's blood. We did nothing to earn that grace, and we could not, it is the free gift.
Sing F Lau
It will help if we remember that God deals with His creatures in the respective relationship He sustains to them, i.e. covenantly.
There is the relationship between the CREATOR and His creatures. His benevolent dealing with His all creatures is based on the covenant of CREATION - whereby He obligated Himself as Creator to provide for His creatures. And He does that abundantly to all. Any lack or poverty is solely and wholly to be attributed to the wickedness of men. Otherwise there would be plenty for everyone. There is PROVIDENCE here from the CREATOR.
There is the relationship between the REDEEMER and the redeemed. His GRACIOUS dealing with the elect is based on the covenant of REDEMPTION - whereby He entered in a covenant of grace, to deliver the condemned out of their state of sin and death, and to bring them to an estate of eternal salvation by a Redeemer. There is GRACE here from the REDEEMER.
God as Judge dealing with us when we were condemned criminal, and God as Father dealing with us when we are His children need to be understood too
Chapine
I don't find anything in the Scriptures about "conditional" Grace. Everything I read has to do with Grace, period! Why do men always insert something else into the Word that isn't there??
toMorrow
Dear Brother, What you described in the first part of your post above IS common grace. God was under no obligation to save noah or the human race. Even now, without the holding back of his wrath by pure grace this world would be consumed... in holy indignation. Without the common grace of God the world would have murdered itself long ago...but in mercy God sovereignly reigns over the lost world and restrains sin from having its full sway. That is common grace.
I stand by my statement on Piper's comment. Conditional grace is goofy. It is a confusion of terms.
Sing F Lau
5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 ¶ And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. 8 ¶ But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
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It was NO COMMON grace that that Noah was preserved... SO THAT the promised Seed of the woman, the Redeemer of the elect would eventually arrived.
It was special saving grace for the sake of the elect that prevented the world from being consumed by His holy indignation. When the last is gathered in, then wrath shall come upon the world.
Of course those who enjoy God's saving and special grace ALSO enjoy His providential care as His children. Deliverance from the destructive flood as an example of that providential care.
sMarty
If you must meet a condition, how can grace be considered unmerited favor? By graduating, you at least earned a merit toward the favor and though you may not have done something to earn the favor, the favor was given to you based on your personal merit.
I dislike Piper's statement, but then again, I dislike Piper's theology. I am sure that he dislikes mine, so I figure we are even.
Douglass
The illustration you quoted required meeting the condition of graduation. The benevolence in the story was based on the ability and willingness of the candidate to meet the stated condition. However, the grace in salvation is bestowed on those who by nature are unable to meet any conditions. By nature, all of Adam's race are said to be "dead in sin" and enemies toward God, rather than cooperating creatures. Grace finds and recovers men in this fallen state. Grace in action is stronger than the "strong man of the house."
The grace taught in the Bible "translated" us, "washed us," "enabled us" and "returned us" to the Bishop of our souls. These expressions are in the passive voice. See Greek in II Peter 2:25
Further, grace and mercy in our eternal salvation are said to be unconditional in Rom 9, "not of works" and "not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth" (as if to win a race). On the flip side of grace is mercy. Mercy is not getting what we deserve. Grace is getting what we do not deserve. Mercy/grace extended based on foreseen obedience is no mercy at all, because the obedient creature is deserving above those who are not obedient.
And it is also important to note that so-called mercy and grace that ultimately avail nothing are not really mercy and grace at all. The mercy and grace of the Bible are not only sufficient, but efficient and effective.
The illustration you found falls short of illustrating Bible truth upon informed examination. The Bible sheds much light on commentaries and illustrative stories propagated by the "seven women" of false religion.
Jeremy
I appreciate very much what others have written and especially what Bro. Meeks wrote. I would also direct your attention to Romans 9.
I would also add a few thoughts. The quote seems to imply that the only condition to receiving the gift of a college education is the condition of graduating. If that was the only condition, then we could say that our depravity is that one condition. However, in more careful examination of the analogy, we find that many more conditions are actually required (forgive me for being verbose). In order for that gift to take place, it requires that the student accept the gift, it requires that the student apply to colleges and get accepted, it requires that the student go through the process of enrollment, it requires the student to attend classes, etc... I would assume the point is made by now. If we have to satisfy all of those requirements to receive the Grace of our Lord, then it is clear that we are no longer saved by Grace, but rather grace combined with works, which no longer is Grace.
Stephie
I don't see a whole lot of difference. Conditional or earned does not really matter, because it goes against his nature and he does not want it in any case. As when I was offered a trip to Hawaii as a gift on condition that I would graduate from a certain Catholic high school. Whether it was a gift, wage, or condition did not matter. I wanted no part of it.
upHolder
Very interesting that Piper would use this illustration. When I was a pup, growing up in north Mississippi, we'd typically come in from the fields for lunch. Dad would always turn on a local radio station to hear the news and a local Church of Christ (about as fully Arminian as a man can get) preacher. I can't tell you how many times this Arminian preacher used this identical argument to support his view and to make a pretense of reconciling his view with the Bible passages that discuss salvation by grace alone. You have to "work" for your new birth/eternal salvation, but, since God gives you far more than your works deserved, salvation is still by grace???
Piper's illustration is a colossal dodge of the obvious truth that Scripture teaches and far more compatible with the Arminian teaching that I heard from the C of C preacher in my youth. He just does a better job cloaking the idea to make it sound like grace, but it is not in any shape or form an explanation of Bible grace. To the extent that eternal salvation or new birth depend on our meeting conditions, to that precise extent, salvation is by works, call it conditions or call it works. It is all the same. Tom Constable and others at Dallas Theological Seminary, by no means Primitive Baptists, have actually seen this point to some extent and put John MacArthur's "lordship salvation" under a long-overdue magnifying glass with the point that MacArthur is teaching "backdoor" salvation by works in his "lordship salvation" teaching.
Neither of these men have a clear grasp of the Biblical distinction between regeneration and conversion, so they necessarily confuse the two in their teaching. Regeneration is wholly (not 99.99%) of God and is performed immediately/directly, not by either human means or by intermediate instrument or agent. Conversion is gradual, not immediate, and occurs over time by degrees, and it does not occur apart from our belief and Biblical works. Nothing new under the sun; it goes back to the rejection of "conditional time salvation" and the embracing of one of two major errors, either absolute predestination or they hybrid Fuller-esque absolute predestination/Arminian mix that our people rejected in 1832.
The more problematic issue for me is that a number, small but nonetheless alarming, of our preachers seem mesmerized by Piper and MacArthur and can't seem to recognize these teachings for the significant error that they contain. I increasingly agree with Elder Sun Pyle. These men need to spend more time with the Johns of the Bible and less time with contemporary Johns, such as MacArthur, Piper, etc.
Ronnie
I whole-heartedly agree with the comments that any condition placed on the alien sinner in order to be regenerated is not grace, but rather works. I would appreciate your thoughts on Heb. 4:16, in which God's people are exhorted to "come boldly to the throne of grace" and "find grace to help in time of need." Is this "found grace" conditional on our obedience to the commandment to pray? I am new to this group, so if this has already been addressed, I apologize.
Barrel
Never worry about asking questions or asking the same question that has already been discussed. However, I don't remember this one being raised before anyway. Since it has been 11 hours since you asked the question with no response, I will share a thought.
The grace of Eternal Salvation is bestowed upon those dead in sins with no desire or ability to seek God or ask for that grace. Life is truly a gift bestowed by an outside source Who has the ability to grant with much miraculous power. We are unworthy, uninterested and incapable, wretched sinners until God gives us Spiritual life. Therefore we cannot and will not even ask for such grace.
After regeneration, we are now precious children of God with a new relationship to God. We were always His elect and Sons by covenant and promise; but now we are Spiritually alive and love Him because He first loved us. We now have the ability to seek Him and please Him. We are still unworthy of His practical timely grace bestowed upon us for daily living. However, He is pleased to provide for us as a loving Father when His obedient children respectfully ask in His Son's name. We don't earn this grace either, but with the life and relationship already bestowed by God, we are now commanded to obey, trust, have faith in, believe, ask, worship and thank Him. When we obey, He is pleased and bestows more blessings and practical grace as it pleases Him. There are also rewards for (both obedience and disobedience) as it pleases Him to bestow. Perhaps others may want to comment further, especially on distinctions between rewards and the grace mentioned in this passage.
Ronnie
Very well said, Bro. Darrel. We should always have the attitude that when we have done what it is our duty to do, we are yet unprofitable servants, and unworthy of the least of God's mercies.
