Conversion, Regeneration, and Justification

Head on collision: failure to distinguish between regeneration without means and conversion through gospel means

A brother posted this quote: "We are not born again by repentance or faith or conversion: we repent and believe because we have been born again." John Murray Nips Amen. This is certainly the true doctrine of regeneration. Childers amen,amen,amen,amen! Taillefer John 3 Sing F Lau We are born again by the FREE - FREE - FREE grace of God, i.e. without us meeting any condition whatsoever. And one is born again BECAUSE he has been JUSTIFIED BY GOD, bacause justification of life has taken place by God's FREE - FREE - FREE grace while he was in the state of condemnation and death, i.e God has applied the righteousness of Christ, giving the Holy Spirit the warrant to regenerate the dead. The Holy Spirit has no warrant to regenerate any whose condemnation has not been removed by God's work of justification. John Murray did not know the distinction between legal justification APPLIED by God's free grace, and the experiential justification by believer's faith. He confused the latter with the former. The order set out in his 'Redemption: Accomplished and Applied' contradicts that of the Scriptures, and that which is summarized in his doctrinal standard WCF. God justifies the UNGODLY, those in the state of sin and death. Faith justifies the believers, certifies, demonstrates, evidences that they are in the state of righteousness and eternal life! Johnson This is a logical sequence, not a chronological one. Sing F Lau Whether logical or chronological, justification APPLIED by God's free grace is ALWAYS prior to justification EXPERIENCED by believers faith. Justification applied takes place when God effectually calls an elect out of his state of sin and death in which he is by nature, to that of righteousness and eternal life. The effectual calling out of the state of sin and death REQUIRES justification (to remove condemnation, and give righteousness), regeneration (to removed death and give life), and adoption (to remove alienation, and made member of God's family) and the bestowal of the gift of the Spirit to dwell in the child of God. All these are simultaneous in the effectual call to righteousness and life, but in that logical order, and all by the FREE - FREE - FREE grace of God. With all the above completed by free grace... faith become possible... leading to experiential justification by faith... as in Gen 15:1-6. There is imputation of Abraham's faith in Gen 15:1-6. There is NO legal imputation nor personal application of Christ's righteousness in Gen 15:16. Johnson A distinction needs to be made between a logical sequence and a chronological sequence. How many regenerated, but unbelieving folk, do you think there are walking around in this world? Regeneration is not the effect of conversion but the logical cause. However, should we suppose that one can be born again and not believe? Regeneration and faith/conversion happens as a "packet" and are not to be separated in time. When God turns the wheel, all the spokes turn at once. Taillefer They can upon regeneration look upon the cross with the eyes of faith and belief. At that moment, they receive the King whom they formerly rejected. God gives them power/ability to receive by the new birth, being born of God. Nips Amen, Trevor and Rick. The idea that God regenerates people and they do not believe and repent as an immediate fruit of that new life is simply HYPER-Calvinism and unbiblical. Johnson The John Murray quote IS technically correct, if applied logically and not temporally. But many Calvinists, in an effort to stress monergism and divine sovereignty, fall for this error. Another frequent error that some - in a zeal to promote God's sovereignty - fall into is the belief that God regenerates without the use of means. But the truth is that God uses means (i.e., the instrumentality of the Word of God): 'Ye are clean through the word I have spoken to you, John 15:3 Of his own will begot he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of first-fruits of his creatures.—James 1:18. ........But that is a topic for another time..... Sing F Lau I am trying to get something so simple and basic across... but I am not sure if I can. Can you imagine regeneration LOGICALLY prior to justification... eternal life is given PRIOR to the imputation of righteousness leading to justification unto life? "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." Sin brings the condemnation of death, and righteousness is necessary for the justification of life. The imputation of righteousness leading to justification of life is necessary for and LOGICALLY prior to regeneration. Justification by faith that follows regeneration is experiential in nature. Faith justifies a believer that heis indeed a child of God, possessing eternal life. God justifies a condemned dead sinner by forgiving him all his sins and applying to him personally the righteousness of Christ. The two aspect of justification are very different. Sing F Lau Trevor@ "Regeneration and faith/conversion happens as a "packet" and are not to be separated in time. " Does Abraham fit in? Does Cornelius fit in? Does Lydia fit in? And what about Ethiopian eunuch? And those devout God-fearing Jews who came to Jerusalem from and were CONVERTED on the day of Pentecost? Were they ALREADY regenerated, or were they still in their state of condemnation and death? Were their conversion and their regeneration separated with SOME substantial time in between? Were they regenerated through the means of the gospel ministry? Or were they regenerated long before the gospel ministry was brought to them for their CONVERSION? I am just inquiring to understand what you have said. Johnson Yes, they all fit in. There are no regenerated people walking around who are not yet converted. Sing F Lau You stated that regeneration and faith/conversion are not separated in time - therefore simultaneous. Was Cornelius regenerated before Apostle Peter came and converted him with the gospel ministry? Was the Ethiopian eunuch regenerated before Phillip was sent to convert him with the gospel ministry? Does a natural man fear God and worship Him? Sing F Lau Trevor @"Another frequent error that some - in a zeal to promote God's sovereignty - fall into is the belief that God regenerates without the use of means. But the truth is that God uses means (i.e., the instrumentality of the Word of God):' ======== Take this statement to heart and consider its implication if what you claim is true: "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." First, take note of the declaration: "so is EVERY ONE that is born of born." So, there is one same way of regeneration for EVERY ONE, and the one same way is true of every one that is born of God. (If means is requires, then some elect are beyond the reach of this means. So this idea is obviously ruled out! It is just that simple!) Second, take note of the fact the when, where and how strong the wind blows IS ABSOLUTELY independent of the activities of man. It is not conditioned upon anything man is or can contribute. Every farmer knows this fundamental fact... sadly only a few preachers do. Third, man can only observe the effect and evident that the wind has blown... preachers can observe the effect of the activities of the Spirit of God through the means of the gospel ministry, but he has no role whatsoever in the regenerating activity of the sovereign Spirit of God. Preachers observe the effects and evidence of the regenerating activity of God if the gospel ministry administered by him locates faith in the midst of his hearers. The gospel ministry is the means divinely appointed for bringing to light, make manifest, draws out the faith that is worked in the child of God by the indwelling Spirit. God does use means in the CONVERSION of His children. And please, only God's children can be converted to the truth through the means of the gospel. The dead can't be converted! God DOES NOT require or uses means in the regeneration of those dead in trespasses and sins. He does this immediately, and without means. This ALONE guarantees that EVERY ELECT will be regenerated and be made fit for eternal glory! Sing F Lau Trevor@ "There are no regenerated people walking around who are not yet converted." ===== This may sound very strange to you, but mull and chew over it slowly. It is precisely that there are regenerated people walking around who are NOT yet converted that need to be converted that the gospel ministry was instituted for such purpose. There was the regenerated devout God-fearing Jews on the day of Pentecost that needed to be converted, there was the regenerated Ethiopian eunuch riding around on his chariot that needed to be converted; there was the regenerated Italian Cornelius that needed to be converted. The gospel ministry is the means divinely instituted to MAKE DISCIPLES of God's children, whom He, by His free and sovereign grace and will, has begotten (John 1:13). As I said, it may sound strange to you... but mull and chew on it... Apostle Paul wrote to the Romans, whom he described as saints and beloved of God... yet the Apostle said that he has the great urgency and indebtedness to preach the gospel to them! Did you notice this simple fact? They have not heard the gospel, and they need to hear the gospel.... but they are already 'saints and beloved of God' even though they have not heard the gospel, and Apostle Paul was in great urgency to bring the gospel to them. Just mull and chew over this thought... please don't get choked over this grain of rice. Wiebe Sing, how long (time frame) do you believe it takes from being regenerated to being converted as you put it? correct me if I am wrong, but I get the impression that from your last comment that it could be or is an extended period of time between the two. Jesus is the ONLY begotten Son of God. John 3:16. does this not contradict your statement of Christians being "begotten"? I might be chewing, but I am not swallowing the explanation. Johnson Sing, you are getting election and regeneration confused. Election is from eternity past. Regeneration happens at a point in time. God ordained to regenerate the Elect from all eternity; but he did not due so until the appointed moment in time. Sing F Lau Elmer@ 'Jesus is the ONLY begotten Son of God. John 3:16. does this not contradict your statement of Christians being "begotten"?" ===== This will answer you adequately: 1Jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. Jesus is the only begotten Son of God in the sense described in Luke 1:35. He was the eternal Word made flesh - the ONLY begotten of God. The elect are begotten of God, born of Him in regeneration. Sing F Lau Wiebe@ Sing, how long (time frame) do you believe it takes from being regenerated to being converted as you put it? correct me if I am wrong, but I get the impression that from your last comment that it could be or is an extended period of time between the two. ======== We don't know how long... but it is certain from the narrative of those converted, they were regenerated before their conversion were recorded for us. Consider that of the devout god-fearing Jews "out of every nation under heaven" that were gathered at Jerusalem; the Ethiopian eunuch, the Italian Cornelius, etc, etc. How long was Cornelius a devout God-fearing man, prayed to God always" - before Apostle Peter was sent to convert him to the gospel truth? I don't know. If you need to know, do a research. I take it that ONLY a regenerated man can be a devout man, fearing God, and prays to God always. How long has Lydia gathered by the riverside to worship and pray to God before Apostle Paul was instrumental in her conversion? I don't know. I take it that Lydia must be a regenerated woman before she could worshipped and prayed to God. Sing F Lau Johnson@ "Sing, you are getting election and regeneration confused. Election is from eternity past. Regeneration happens at a point in time." What did I say that make you conclude that I confused them? Election is indeed from eternity - before the elect existed. Regeneration is indeed at God's approved and appointed time. I didn't talk about election. I talked about regeneration and conversion, both in time! It is more likely that you are confused about regeneration and conversion! Regeneration is ALWAYS logically and chronologically prior to conversion - even in the closest case possible. Just imagine the best scenario... A preacher is preaching. Preaching - reasoning, demonstrating and persuading the hearers of the gospel truth takes time, hearing takes time, understanding takes time... (and surely ONLY those who are ALREADY regenerated are able to hear and discern spiritual things... and hearing, understanding, being persuaded and turning around take time... these do not happen instantaneously, do they? ). There is a time frame between regeneration and conversion... some very long, others shorter. John@ "God ordained to regenerate the Elect from all eternity; but he did not due so until the appointed moment in time." I am talking about regeneration and conversion in time... that regeneration is always CHRONOLOGICALLY prior to regeneration. Just look at all those cases of conversion recorded in the Scriptures. Look at their lives before conversion - were they still dead in trespasses and sins, or they giae evidence of born again, and needed to be converted to the gospel truth? Wiebe @ Lau I am not disputing that regeneration takes place prior to faith, but I have been led to believe that the time factor is almost simultaneously while still keeping the order of salvation. Wiebe @ Sing in the 1 John 5:18, it is only the KJV that uses the "begotten" term. the rendering is "born of God", but we know Jesus was not born of God: He was not regenerated like us. Nipps @ Sing...In reference to John 3... Do you think that the wind blows and then days or months later the leaves or grass move??? The grass and leaves (elect) immediately are moved by the wind (spirit). Sing F Lau @Nipps... a valid rhetorical question, but quite misguided! Such a question misses the whole point of the illustration, beside taking the illustration in the wrong literal sense! The point of the illustration is that the wind blows INDEPENDENT of man's presence and activity, i.e. the Spirit's work of regeneration is FREE, SOVEREIGN and INDEPENDENT of human mean and activities. The wind DOES NOT wait until someone is there to observe the effects of its activities. (According to some, unless there are men standing under the tree, the wind can't and won't blow!) In spiritual term, the way appointed to discern the regenerating activity of the Spirit is to preach the gospel. If there are faith and repentance, then it is evidenced that the Holy Spirit has worked... then you are seeing 'the leaves or grass move' expect in your rhetorical question - a point which the illustration DOES NOT deal with. The effects of the Spirit's work of regeneration can ONLY BE OBSERVED or BROUGHT TO light through the gospel ministry. "But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel." The passage states plainly, that life and immortality - the effects of the regeneration work of the Spirit based on the finished work of Christ - are brought to light through the gospel. The gospel ministry is the means to bring to light life and immortality that ARE ALREADY there. The gospel ministry CANNOT bring to light what is NOT ALREADY there! It is not the means to bring life and immortality. That's a devil's lie! Imagine you turning the light in a dark room. Your turning on the light make manifest the furniture that are already there. Your turning on the light DID NOTHING to bring the furniture into the room! Sing F Lau Wiebe@"I am not disputing that regeneration takes place prior to faith, but I have been led to believe that the time factor is almost simultaneously..." The 'almost simultaneous' idea is due to the false idea that regeneration conditioned upon the instrumental means of gospel ministry... i.e gospel regeneration. That is a popular, and common error. Conversion of God's children (elect that are regenerated) is conditioned upon the instrumental means of gospel ministry. 'Faith comes by hearing.' I fear too many believe 'eternal life comes by hearing'! You can keep your 'simultaneous' belief. I will keep to the biblical examples that show regeneration is direct and immediate, without the gospel ministry, and the various substantial time laps between the regeneration and the conversion of an elect of God through the gospel means some time later. Sing F Lau Wiebe, I don't know what is the issue concerning 1Jn 5:18. Can you please explain? Here is 1John 5:18 "We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not." 'Born' and 'begotten' in the passage above have the same root word in Greek. Christ is the only begotten Son. Perhaps you draw the conclusion that, therefore there are no other begotten beside the one begotten Son. Then we have forgotten the one cardinal rule of interpretation: context. context. context. Christ is begotten in a different sense then the elect are begotten. We need to give attention to the SENSE, not SOUND.
  ===== The exchanges end abruptly here...