Huge fig tree - see any fruit?Luke 13 "
6 ¶ He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.
======
Sing F Lau
Does Christ seek fruit from those who are not His?
Does he expect fruit from those dead in trespasses and sins?
Just asking!
He most certainly seek fruit from His people.
And it seems there are among His people who bear no fruit, and suffer just consequences.
Rich
Pruning live branches often results in a greater fruit.
Deadwood bears no fruit.
Abuliot
The unregenerate are duty bound only to the law of works and the duties commanded to them from that law. ie. love God and your neighbor as yourself.
No God did not expect the flesh to do good (as it is carnal and sold under sin)... but, he does command the them to do what they ought.
All of God's children bear fruit in differing degrees. There is no such thing as a regenerate child of God that has become utterly estranged from fruit bearing.
Rich
Abu, How much 'fruit' must you observe to believe that God is sovereign in his choices?
Sing F Lau
Abu, is the parable dealing with fig trees or people? If people, what kind of people? What kind of fruit is Jesus expecting from what kind of people?
In the parable, is there a real possibility that the fig tree remain barren? What does it mean to be cut down in the parable?
If the fig tree in the parable is cut down, has it become totally estranged from fruit bearing?
What do you mean by 'become totally estranged from fruit bearing? Did Lot become become totally estranged from fruit bearing? Did they that made a shipwreck of their faith become totally estranged from fruit bearing?
I am just inquiring to understand your position better.
Abuliot
@Abu, How much 'fruit' must you observe to believe that God is sovereign in his choices?
>>I'm not sure I understand the question? I don't believe you have to bear fruit to believe that god is sovereign in choices. One can be an unregenerate heathen and believe that God is sovereign in choices.
Rich
Believeth is a spiritual state of being. Man is put into this spiritual state by the power of Christ, plus nothing. What a child of God believes is foften determined by books vs. Bible.
Eternity doesn't begin by man's determinate will to start believing something, nor is man obligated to bearing fruit as a condition of eternal relationship with God.
Fellowship & relationship are distinctly different.
Conversion & regeneration are distinctly different.
A daily dosage of seminary books so often confuses the hearts and minds of the simple.
Thanks
Abuliot
It's dealing with the entire national people of Israel (not regenerate children). Jesus is seeking or looking for fruit among them... specifically the fruit of owning him as the true messiah and destroying their idolatrous traditions of men (taught in the nation). These were in their power to perform in the outward sense... and upon their rejection of him, and their increasing practices of idolatry... destruction came upon them.
Read Peter's account of Lot. His soul was righteous (though vexed)... That is experiential righteousness, not merely imputed righteousness. The account of his entire life is lacking. One can only assume to know the degree of fruit he bore.
I understand shipwreck to be referring to a shipwreck of the profession of faith which is common among false converts. God is the author and finisher of true faith and what He began he will finish. I'm not a freewill-sovereignty of man-synergist when it comes to the believers growth in grace. Such a doctrine destroys all my confidence and hope in my present walk and puts me under the legal conditionalism of the law again. "Do this and you be blessed, don't do this and I'll destroy you, cast you into a hell on earth, curse you with a timely destruction.. etc." That's all legal religion and it has nothing to do with the covenant of grace.
Abuliot
I don't read seminary books Richard. Nor, am I seminary trained. Much of the authors I read are rejected and mocked by the modern puritan and reformed movements. If it's wrong to read from the thoughts of other men, then how is it right for me to ever read your thoughts. Certainly, there is a place fro reading books and being edified by gifted ministers. My convictions are based on the authority of scripture. I've rejected many paragraphs from some of my favorite authors when the differ from scripture. I'm not a seminary student. thanks
Abuliot
"A daily dosage of seminary books so often confuses the hearts and minds of the simple."
But, A daily dosage of reading Richard and Sing is ever so healthy for the hearts and minds of the simple. Right? That's what I'm getting here.
I love you guys, but I disagree with the conditional (freewill-sovereignty of man) time-salvation view.
Rich
Abraham, I enjoy reading your posts!
Why do you identify yourself with 'REFORM' theologies?
Must your parentage be derived from Rome?
I'm not opposed to automotive repairs.
I wonder why anyone would hope to fix (reform) the Roman church.
Although you don't quote the Pope, you often quote men descended from Romish reforms.
Jude 3,4 is an appropriate model for our true and spiritual worship.
Thanks
Abuliot
Why do you identify yourself with 'REFORM' theologies?
I don't.
Abuliot
If your trying to be funny and slick, it comes across as ignorance. You know I don't follow Rome.
Rich
Abraham, I rest. I tell you what I believe and we exercise choices in this time world. Peter's counsel to save yourselves from this untoward generation is one such time salvation. He was addressing those already heaven bound.
Rich
No, I'm not joking. Reform is repair work intended to bring the the mother harlot into peace with God. Leave it, my friend!
Rich
Timely salvations are biblical. Believers are not robots!
Choices are made in this time world, for better or for worse.
Sing F Lau
Abu, there is a salvation which is of the Lord, and Him alone. In this salvation, which is wholly and completely and solely by the free and sovereign grace of God, each and every elect are absolutely EQUALLY SAVED in absolutely every aspect. Get it?
There is ALSO a salvation which is CONDITIONED upon your working out for yourself as God's children. In this salvation, which is conditioned upon the obedient response of God's children to the grace of God working in them, each attains his own salvation to a vastly different degree... like Lot and Abraham, and like Paul and those who make shipwreck of their faith. Get the point?
Both are taught, and PLAINLY taught in the Holy Scriptures. If you can't accept that basic premise, then no further profitable exchanges is possible... we are reading different Bible, or reading the same but perceiving it VERY differently!
Abuliot
I'm not following reformers. Brine, Gill, Hakwer, Huntington and others were accused of being Hyper Calvinist by the reformed strict Calvinists like Fuller. Primitives descended out of the Particular Baptists. Everyone has their roots. Your arguments go right back at yourself.
Abuliot
Sing I understand your view... as it leaves Sovereignty out of the picture when it comes to the believers growth in grace. Paul was who he was, and did what he did because of Sovereign grace.... not because of sovereign Paul.
Rich
Perseverance by man vs. Preservation by God
Sing F Lau
Abu@ "I understand shipwreck to be referring to a shipwreck of the profession of faith which is common among false converts."
=====
Such interpretation is making apostle Paul warning Timothy AGAINST something which CAN NEVER happen to Timothy, a spiritual son of Paul. Or Paul might be concerned about the possibility that Timothy might be a false convert, and needed such a warning! Pick your choice!
What a waste of words, and Paul's hypocritical concern for Timothy, his spiritual son!
Why exhort and warn Timothy of something that can happen only to false converts?
Many preachers and their followers may be that STEW-PIG and ILLOGICAL, not so with Apostle Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ!
Abuliot
@Perseverance by man vs. Preservation by God
>>preservation by God in an experiential life of hope in Christ vs. preservation by God in a life of utter backsliding shame from the hope of Christ. Let's keep things clear here.
Abuliot
A brother once wrote (and I agree), "Either God is sovereign over all things or there is no God. Either ALL who trust Christ will persevere or NONE will."
Have a good day gentleman.
Sing F Lau
Abu, you are so capable of misrepresenting.
You said, "Paul was who he was, and did what he did because of Sovereign grace.... not because of sovereign Paul."
You have not only misrepresented Paul, you have also misrepresented me.
A man who responds to God's grace working in him is NOT sovereign. (Your twisted logic led you to conclude that he is!) He is NEVERTHELESS accountable.
His responses to God's grace working in him determines the degrees and extents of his sanctification.
The human responsibility in sanctification explain why there is such a vast difference between Abe and many Arminians!
It is MOST CERTAINLY NOT God's sovereignty that left many of His children as misguided Arminians. It is their disobedience and unbelief to the word of God.
Each is commanded to grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Sing F Lau
1Co 15:10 "But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me."
God's grace that was bestowed upon Paul was NOT IN VAIN.
Why? He responded obediently to the grace working in him... thus he - he - he laboured more abundantly than the rest.
Yet, it was God's grace working in him.
The same grace works in every child of God... each turn out vastly different in their discipleship... because each responds to the SAME grace working in them in different measure.
It seems to me that you have jettisoned the human responsibility in sanctification, the only proper place for human responsibility.
Divine sovereign deals with our eternal salvation.
Human responsibility is restricted to the context of timely salvation. And God holds each of His children responsible for their won salvation that they must work out for themselves with fear and trembling.
And don't attribute to God's sovereignty when some one mess up his life, like Lot!
Thanks for the opportunity to discuss the things of God.
