'Go and Preach' - but why? what is the work?

To feed the living chick or to bring the dead pup to life?
Your gospel ministry: is it appointed to nourish the living,
or bringing the dead to life?

aWells quoted:
"But we are so gentle and quiet, we do not use strong language about other people’s opinions; but let men go to hell out of charity to them. We are not at all fanatical... We would not wish to save any sinner who does not particularly wish to be saved. If persons choose to attend our ministry, we shall be pleased to say a word to them in a mild way, but we do not speak with tears streaming down our cheeks, groaning and agonising with God for them; neither would we thrust our opinions upon them, though we know they are being lost for want of the knowledge of Christ crucified." C.H Spurgeon

Sing F Lau
Man can do nothing to save a man from hell UNLESS God Himself has first saved him.

God ALONE saves ETERNALLY, i.e. He purposed, accomplished, and applied eternal redemption to each of His elect, all by His FREE and SOVEREIGN grace.

Only such can be saved through the gospel ministry faithfully administered by man. The gospel ministry brings TEMPORAL salvation, i.e. deliverance that pertains to the life here and now. TEMPORAL salvation is something God's children (i.e. those whom God has bestowed eternal salvation, freely by His grace) must work out for themselves with fear and trembling.

Our spiritual BEING is all by the FREE grace of God. While we were under condemnation, dead and alienated, God freely justified, regenerated, and adopted us, giving us the gift of His Spirit to dwell in our hearts. The gospel ministry is relevant to, and intended for, such ALONE ONLY, and no one else. Food is relevant to, and intended for, the living ONLY.

Our spiritual WELL BEING is conditioned upon our obedient response to the will of our Father.

If we fail to distinguish the UNconditional salvation by free grace, and the conditional salvation by our obedience, then we have fail to rightly divide the word of truth, and end up with much confusion... mixing grace and works... deny monergism, and embracing synergism.

aWells
Sing - I am not sure of your point. I have had this conversation with you before and no one will disagree that God saves and man is helpless to save himself. However, a man is deceived who thinks that God does not use means. Jesus did not tell his disciples to sit and home and that he would send the sheep to them. They were commanded to GO and PREACH!

Sing F Lau
Adam, you still DON'T get the VERY SIMPLE and BASIC point.

God DOES use means. So, yes, a man who thinks that I deny God uses means is very obtuse indeed!

There is a eternal salvation (pertaining to being a child of God) that God DOES NOT use means, and there is a temporal salvation (pertaining to the life here and now, the well being of God's children) that God had not only ordained means but also commanded that those means be used!

GO and PREACH: but why go and preach, and to whom? Go and preach because these are means that will bring the condemned dead alien to eternal life, or go and preach because there are those whom God has effectually called to grace and salvation out there? Go and preach to whom - to those still dead in sins and trespasses that they may be brought to life, or to those whom God, by Himself, has effectually called out of the state of sins and death to that of grace and salvation?

The early particular baptists - the predecessors of C H Spurgeon like Benjamin Keach and John Gill, and host of others - were all very clear on the distinction between the two distinct salvation spoken of in the Bible. Those who came later became confused, and eventually rejected it entirely, thus ending up with the necessary SYNERGISTIC understanding of salvation.

Food and drink are very good. Have you ever try to feed and nourish a dead man so that he become alive? Many preachers sincerely believe that's what they are doing through the means of their gospel ministry - that they have God's appointed means to bring DEAD CONDEMNED ALIEN sinners to eternal life!

The apostles most certainly didn't believe so!

I think it is a great delight to have the means to feed a thirsty and hungry man... BUT only a LIVING man, made alive by the FREE and sovereign grace of God, can be a hungry and thirsty man! I have never met a physically dead man who can be thirsty and hungry! Those dead in sins an trespasses are adversed to spiritual things.

Get the point?

The gospel is spiritual milk and meat for the nourishment of God's children. It is NOT the means to bring eternal life to dead sinners! God DOES NOT need those means to give eternal life to the dead and condemned sinners.

I thought this is so simple. Children in my church can understand this. Goes to show the truth of this statement: "The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him." - Leo Tolstoy –

aWells
I have asked you before, what about the heathen in the Amazon rainforest or elsewhere? Your response is that the heathen would be eternally saved regardless of whether they ever had the gospel witness. You said that the only effect that the Gospel would have on them is in a temporal salvation. Did you or did you not say that?

Sing F Lau
Adam, any of God's elect [SIC] among the heathen in the Amazon or NY City or KL, He himself, at His approved and appointed time, shall effectually call out of their state of sin and death, which they are in by nature, to that of grace and salvation - by justifying them regenerating them, adopting them, and giving them the gift of His Spirit to dwell in them. This is eternal salvation by God's FREE - FREE - FREE grace - without any human means or instrumentality.

Salvation by God's FREE grace is the ONE and ONLY way to ensure that "to the end the promise [of eternal salvation] might be sure to ALL the seed" (Rm 4:16).

If you put means and instrumentality into the equation for the eternal salvation of God's elect, you necessarily introduce a human element that undermines the CERTAINTY of eternal salvation, that would exclude many elect who did not have the means brought to them, and those elect incapable of being reached with the means.

It is a fact that the gospel ministry DID NOT reach many tribes and tongues and nations and people... YET as many of the ELECT people from among them are found in heaven.

Re 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Yes, I did say that, and I repeat it here so that there is absolutely no doubt. I did say that - you read me well. The gospel ministry is ordained and is instrumental for the instruction and edification of God's children for their TEMPORAL salvation here on earth, as they make their journey through this world to their eternal inheritance., bestowed upon them by God's FREE and sovereign grace.

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."

Read the above passage CAREFULLY. What is the Scriptures, of which the gospel message is a part of, profitable for? Does it have anything to do with imparting eternal life to the condemned dead man? Or it is wholly for the sanctification of a child of God? Do you use the means to furnish a dead man for good works, or do you use it to furnish a child of God for good works, to live soberly, righteously and godly?

Is the means for making a child of God MORE FIT for heaven, i.e. more saved for heaven, OR is it for his instruction and training so that he may save himself from the perverse and wicked generation in which he lives?

Or is it for the INSTRUCTION in BOTH doctrine and righteousness (practical godliness), and for reproof and correction of the LIVING...

Keep speaking, and move on.

aWells
1After these things the LORD appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, where he himself would come. 2 Therefore said he to them, The harvest truly is great, but the laborers are few: pray you therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth laborers into his harvest. 3 Go your ways.behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves. 4 Carry neither purse, nor money, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way. 5 And into whatever house you enter, first say, Peace be to this house. 6 And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest on it: if not, it shall turn to you again. 7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the laborer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house. 8 And into whatever city you enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you: 9 And heal the sick that are therein, and say to them, The kingdom of God is come near to you. 10 But into whatever city you enter, and they receive you not, go your ways out into the streets of the same, and say, 11 Even the very dust of your city, which sticks on us, we do wipe off against you: notwithstanding be you sure of this, that the kingdom of God is come near to you. 12 But I say to you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city. Luke 10:1-12

Jesus said say "the kingdom of God is come near to you." That if they reject the messengers with this message, it would be more bearable for Sodom on that day. Does this not mean that they were preaching to those who reject?

Sing F Lau
What is the point of your last rhetorical question? Are you implying that I am saying that the gospel is to be preached to those only who will receive the gospel? And how is that ever to be possible UNLESS you have the omniscience to know exactly those who have been made spiritually alive from those who remain spiritually dead? Even then, if you can distinguish those spiritually alive from those still spiritually dead, it just proves that your preaching has nothing to do with their being spiritually alive!

The gospel is to be preached to all in the audience. But only those who ARE SAVED (have been justified, regenerated, adopted, and indwelt by the Holy Spirit) will ever hear and believe the good news... BECAUSE the good news is ALREADY true of them.

Hey, 'ching beng' is here. Ah Wong brought some wholesome nutritious food to the cemetery... and calls out loud the good news that Mr Wells has given him some wholesome nutritious food and sent him out to announce the good news. Unto whom do you intend to send those wholesome and nutritious food through Ah Wong - those who are still DEAD in the graves (like many superstitious and deceived ancestor worshipers are doing) or do you have in mind specifically those that have been made alive supernaturally by Mr Wells from among the dead, and are capable of benefiting and profiting from the good food?

Or did you actually send Ah Wong with the intention that Ah Wong uses those food as instrument to raise the dead from their grave?

Sing F Lau
Adam@ 2 Therefore said he to them, The harvest truly is great, but the laborers are few: pray you therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth laborers into his harvest."

May I ask, and you please consider this simple question: what part did those laborers have to do in the production of the Lord's harvest? Isn't true that His harvest is ALREADY there... all ready to be gathered in, and the laborers are sent out to gather them into the NT church, into the safety of the barn here on earth. God's free grace alone has perfectly fitted them for heaven, and eternal glory.

Of course VERY MANY deluded preachers so sincerely believe that they are sent to gather souls into heaven!

Does this simple fact ever cross your mind?

The laborers are involved in the IN-GATHERING of the ALREADY EXISTING harvest. They play no part whatsoever in the PRODUCTION of the harvest.

This is so simple and obvious that I fear insulting a clever American! Insult is furthest from my mind. Enlightening and leading you to the simple truth is.

Children in my church do understand this pretty well. Many doctors of theology don't. Much easier to teach un-poisoned mind these self-evident truth.

Keep speaking!

Sing F Lau
Adam@ "6 And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest on it: if not, it shall turn to you again."

Who is there first - the son of peace, or your coming with the gospel? Did God produce the son of peace first before you came to the scene, and sent you to bring the glad tidings to such, or did your bringing of the glad tidings to the son of enmity became the instrument to turn that son of enmity into a son of peace?

Do you ever study and ask simple questions like these? Do people ever read and study the Bible, and let the Bible tell us what it says, or do we just make the Bible to say what we want ANY WAY?

Plurality in Unity - Trinity

Same essence, distinct entities.

Monergism:
"The heart of the Christian faith in God is the revealed mystery of the Trinity." - J.I. Packer

Marquette
Good evening all, my question in regards to the name trinity, where does it appear in Holy Writ? Yet I do see in Scripture that in Christ Jesus is the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Marty
The word "Trinity" may not appear in Scripture, but the concept does, see for example: Matthew 28:19 & 2 Corinthians 13:14

Monergism
God eternally exists as three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and each person is fully God, and there is one God. You may find the following biblical study helpful: http://www.irr.org/trinity-outline.html

Sing F Lau
God existed eternally as God, Word and Spirit.

The Son is the eternal Word made flesh at a specific time in history.
Before the Eternal Word was made flesh, there is no Son. There is the second person of the triune God as the Eternal Word, John 1:1-2.

The Son refers to that divine-human being that began to exist at a specific point in time. The Eternal Word existed from eternity, and is wholly divine. But the Eternal Word is not the Son, the DUAL natured person who is wholly divine and wholly human, one Person with two natures.

The usage of the term 'Son' began at a specific point in time, i.e. when the Eternal Word was made flesh, and took upon Himself humanity for the purpose of redemption.

Marquette
Jesus Christ, is the perfect manifestation and representation of God, thus He is fully God in every way. How can it possibly be 3 persons or personalities? Christ posseses the fulness of the divine nature and attributes. His going forth has been from everlasting to everlasting beloved.

Sing F Lau
"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he HIM; male and female created he THEM."

There is one man... but there are two distinct persons in the one man, with both the male person and the female person fully and completely human!

Man is HIM as well as THEM. What a living and vivid testimony of the mysterious truth of the PLURALITY in UNITY. This truth of the PLURALITY in UNITY is specifically stated as in the image of God! ... See More

He who rejects this simple truth in the Godhead is indeed without excuse!

God is ONE as well as THREE. Without the inerrant and infallible revelation, and the teaching of the Spirit, it would be impossible to believe this truth!

Rick
The common thread between every cult today is a denial of the Trinity.

Monergism
Marquette appears to take the poisition of the oneness pentecostals (like TD Jakes), which, like Modalism & Sabellianism, teaches that the three persons of the Trinity as different “modes... See More” of the Godhead. Adherants believe that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not distinct personalities, but different modes of God's self-revelation. A typical modalist approach is to regard God as the Father in creation, the Son in redemption, and the Spirit in sanctification. In other words, God exists as Father, Son and Spirit in different eras, but never as triune. Stemming from Modalism, Patripassianism believed that the Father suffered as the Son. This position is not historic Christianity and was, due to the overwhelming bibkical evidence to the contrary, declared heresy by the early church and affirmed as heresy by the vast majority of the history of the church as being unbiblical.

Monergism
For some reason Oneness folks have difficulty distinguishing between "essence" and "persons". The idea that God is one in essence but three persons is illogical to them, so they reject the Trinity based on unaided human logic rather than the plain Scriptural witness.

Martin
The Lord Jesus Christ himself said.
John 15:26, “But when the Comforter is come whom I will send unto you from the Father, He shall testify of me.” The 'He' is the Holy spirit, referred to as the 'comforter'. The 'Father' is God the father, and the 'Me' is Jesus Christ. 3 person's in that sentence clearly expressed.

Isaiah 48:16: “I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, there am I; and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me.”

Again the 'Lord God' refers to the father. 'His spirit' refers to the person of the Holy spirit and the 'hath sent me' is referencing the future Jesus Christ.

The speaker is God in Isaiah 48:16: talking of himself in 3 persons.

We meet here.

Dear Friends,

Sungai Dua Church meets at 6K Desa University Commercial Complex, Jalan Sungai Dua, 11700 Penang:

We meet each Wednesday 8.00pm for our weekly Bible Study.

We meet each Lord's Day services at 9.00am and 11.00am, with a break at 10.30-11.00am.

Baptist

We are Baptists, like John the Baptist, our Lord, His apostles, and many martyrs. We only baptize believers and only by immersion to show a picture of our Lord's burial and resurrection. We reject all infant sprinklings as abominations of the false church in Rome. (Matt 3:13-17; Mark 16:16; John 3:23; Romans 6:3-5; I Peter 3:21).

Predestinarian

We believe God chose to save some of rebellious mankind before the world began for the praise of His glorious grace and to leave the rest under condemnation for the praise of His wrath and power. Jesus died only for the elect, and the Spirit regenerates only them. The pure gospel is good news only for elect and regenerate hearers. (John 6:37-39; Rom 8:29-39; 9:10-24; Eph 1:3-12; II Tim 1:9-10).

KJV Bible

We are Bible Christians. Without Scripture, we cannot know Jesus Christ. God inspired and preserved His words perfectly. Each is vital to truth. Satan attacked God's words in Eden, and he attacks them today with many false versions and proud skeptical attitudes. (Psalm 12:6-7; 119:128; Pr 8:8-9; II Tim 3:16-17; II Pet 1:16-21).

Simple Services

We want our assemblies to copy the apostolic churches. We find no evidence for Sunday Schools, pianos, statues, flags, plays, or other inventions. We stress Bible reading and preaching, prayer, spiritual singing, thanksgiving, the Lord's Supper, and fellowship. (Acts 2:42-47; Eph 5:18-21; I Cor 11:1-2; II Tim 4:1-4; Heb 10:23-25).

Plain Preaching

We believe God sent ministers to preach the word to perfect His saints. Most Christians want entertainment today, but we exalt detailed teaching of God's word. We believe every word of God, and we want to hear it taught boldly on every subject it touches. (Neh 8:1-12; I Cor 2:1-5; I Timothy 4:13-15; II Tim 3:16-17; 4:1-4).

Holy Living

We believe God's true children will live holy lives. God is holy, and He wants us holy. True Christians do not befriend the world, will not conform their standards to the world, and will defy and overcome the world. We teach, expect, and enforce godly living. (Romans 12:1-2; II Cor 7:1; James 4:4; I Pet 2:11; I John 2:15-17)

https://goo.gl/maps/kEJSVSEmns92

Link to Google map

Are Adam & Eve saved?

A mouse being pursued by a cat ...

Brendan pushing his anti-grace view:

Brendan B
Limited Atonement?

"...we have put our hope in the living God, who is the saviour of all men, and especially of those who believe." 1 Timothy 4:10b

"[Jesus] is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, but not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 John 2:2


Sing F Lau
There are those of the fallen and condemned human race that are given to Christ, and there are those who are sovereignly by-passed. Christ came to save His own... those that were given to Him, and are His own.

The passages you quoted need to be understood in light of this plain facts.

Jesus came to do His Father's will... and not the imagination of some men.

'All men' simply means that - not just the Jews, but men of all races, tongues, nations, and tribes.

'The sins of the whole world' - not just the sins of the Jews... but of the whole world.

If you want to make this to mean every sins of every man that ever lived... then what is it that explain the multitudes that are in hell?

There are wicked people who think that God demands double payment... Christ paid for all their sins, sinners must pay it still in hell...


Brendan B
Explaining the multitudes in hell is simple: they rejected the free grace offered unto them.

I believe as the scriptures are divinley inspired we cannot interpret them in such a cerebral manner. I beieve that "ALL" does in fact mean exactly every single person on the face of the planet.


Sing F Lau
Your "all" - does it also include those that were already in hell when Christ died on the cross?

Have you ever offered a Big Mac to a dead man? No? Try it when you have an opportunity. Observe carefully whether he reject your offer.

"Free grace offered unto them" - you insist that God does this! Only very confused and mad men would offer anything to those that are lifeless, and dead!

Only very deluded men would make God to offer anything to those dead in trespasses and sins, hoping that they may accept the offer, and receive life!

No, free grace was never offered! What is the point of offering anything to those dead in trespasses and sins. If free grace was offered, it is guaranteed that NO ONE, no NOT EVEN ONE would be able to accept the offer. Sinners dead in trespasses and sins are incapable of accepting the offer. Deluded men believe otherwise

Free grace ACCOMPLISHED eternal salvation for the elect, those chosen and given to Christ; free grace ALSO APPLIES the eternal salvation to each elect at God's own appointed and approved time. Free grace also APPOINTS the means - the gospel ministry - to call such to believe the truth of their salvation by God's free grace. They are call to believe what is ALREADY TRUE... they are not called to believe what is not yet true in order that their believing may make what is not yet true of them to become true of them!

To offer eternal salvation to those still dead in trespasses and sins is utter folly.

To offer eternal salvation to those who are able to believe (therefore already bestowed with, and possess eternal salvation) is equally foolish. The offer comes TOO LATE, and is redundant!

g'day mate!

Brendan B
You know perfectly well that those who fell into judgment before Christ's day and the promise of the New Covenant either had the Law of Moses OR their own conscience and creation itself (Romans 1-2).

So the Word of God's "All" is all people in the time of the New Covenant, the fulfillment of the Promise.

Are all men really dead in their trespasses as Calvinists interpret? The nature of deadness in sin is not annihilation but separation. Consider Adam and Eve. After they sinned (and thus became "dead" in sins), they were still able to hear and respond to God.

Consider Cornelius the Centurion (Acts 10). In order for Total Depravity the way Calvinists see it to be true, you have to prove that Cornelius was a regenerate Christian before he feared God, gave to the poor and even prayed!

Excuse me, I am not deluded. Yes, the "grace that brings salvation has appeared unto all men." as the Scriptures say. And also as they say in Romans 10:17, faith (which is necessary in order to respond to the drawing of God) comes through merely hearing the message of the Gospel, not being regenerated first! You respond in faith and then are regenerated/forgiven/transformed/born of the water and Spirit through God's power.

The grace of God accomplishes salvation for those elect in Christ - that is - those who put their trust in Him. It is only by this grace we are presented the opportunity and only by God's loving grace and drawing that we have the ability to do so. Again it is only by faith we are able to continue in faith, persevering unto the end.


Sing F Lau
So, did Jesus die for them that were BEFORE His day? And did Jesus also die for all those that came AFTER His day? Or did He die for ALL those that were on earth at the time of His death?

You say, "all people in the time of the New Covenant, the fulfillment of the Promise." So He didn't die for any outside the time of the New Covenant? How were those outside the time of the New Covenant saved then, if any were saved? Did Jesus die for Moses, a man in the Old Covenant?

O yes, consider Adam and Eve. In their sin, they fled and hid from God. Before they enjoyed the presence and communion with God. Now, they are in enmity against God... seeing God as a cruel tyrant - they learn that from the serpent. They were like Lazarus DEAD in the tomb! They heard and responded because of the life giving call of God, just like Jesus call forth Lazarus from his deadness in the tomb.

They were dead in the sense that their sin separated them from God... that's the nature of their deadness... they fled and hid from God. And if not for the free and sovereign life-giving call of God, they would NEVER have come to God. They would be in a state of ENMITY. And unless that state of enmity has been removed by God's sovereign grace BASED on the finished worked of Jesus Christ for His OWN PEOPLE, there would be no coming to Christ.

"Are all men really dead in their trespasses as Calvinists interpret? " you asked.
God's word reads, "There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

Perhaps you and some of your friends were exception!

You don't have to agree with Calvinists. There are lots of inconsistencies and contradictions in the Calvinism that is propagated today.

But do give heed to God's word. His word is plain enough in lots of things.


Brendan B
Jesus' death heralded the coming of the new covenant and this began I believe at His resurrection. Previously, as I said, the people of the old covenant had the Law and the Prophets, and even gentiles without it had what God had put within them, that is, their conscience and self-evident knowledge of God (see Roamns 2:12-15).

Adam and Eve fled - yes. And God called - hey, they could respond! Then God did call them - they responded - and then God called them to account for their actions, but they tried to hide with the old "The devil made me do it!" trick, at which God was not impressed (sin-curse 'n' all...)

The thing to realize was even in their sin, A&E could HEAR and PERCEIVE God.

Sing F Lau, I find you to be becoming quite rude. I do not consider "[myself] and some of [my] friends" to be exceptions to the fact that we're all sinners. However, as I have clearly stated, deadness in sin I believe does not mean complete annihilation to the things of God, but separation from them. Even Romans 1:18-19 states clearly that even the wicked can clearly SEE the truth of God, yet in their evil hearts supress it.

Sing F Lau
Before God's call, they fled and hid, separated from God. They were incapable of coming to God to seek for forgiveness. They trusted in their own futile and vain effort to cover themselves.

If God had left them to themselves, they would have died and perished in their sins... even if God had waited for an eternity for them to come in repentance, they would never come. They were incapable of such spiritual activity, for they were spiritually dead!

LIFE MUST PRECEDE THE ACTIVITIES OF THAT LIFE.

God's effectual call imparts life... enable them to respond.

Jesus' call brought Lazarus out of death, and as a result he responded.

Brendan B
Yes, but you've failed to see something very important about God's call in the Garden: even after the call of God, Adam and Eve were not regenerated unto eternal life, were they? They were condemned and cast out. God came to them and gave them the opportunity to confess their sin: "Have you eaten from the tree I commanded you not to eat from?" However they, instead of confessing and repenting, tried the 'blame game' and God was not impressed.

The miracle of Lazarus has no indication about person, individual salvation; it was a display of Jesus' divine power to express to the people (effectively calling them) to who He is - namely - God (although een after this blatant display of power and truth, some people slipped away and told the Pharisees and then planned to kill Jesus!! Romans 1:18-19).
Sing F Lau
To say that they were condemned is a BLASPHEMY? God clothed them in coats of skin... from the animals that were sacrificed!

They were indeed condemned and cast out of the earthly garden... they were deprived of earthly and temporal blessings of the earthly paradisee!

And you believe they can confess their sins without God giving them the life that make such activity possible!

Brother, even the kangaroos know that LIFE MUST PRECEDE the activity of that life! Why is there this wilful ignorance or rejection???

Brendan B
From the time Adam and Eve sinned they fell under the condemnation of the sin curse. Yes God was still gracious to them (letting them live in the body), yet remember what chilling thing God said to Adam?

"For dust you are and to dust you will return." (Genesis 3:19)

God clearly told Adam that he would die beforehand if he disobeyed, and here he is telling them that, since they disobeyed, they will certainly die in their sin! The same message is being sent out to all the world today.

Well God was with them in the garden - they may very well have confessed their sins. Yet the scripture just tells us plainly: they tried to hide their sin instead. Certainly a foolish, wicked mistake on their part.
Sing F Lau
Brendan, stick the point!
Adam's sin did condemn him... he did die, i.e. became separated from God, spiritually, evidenced by his fleeing and hiding from God.

God effectually called them out of that DEATH, and Adam was able to respond. He restored them, and clothed them before they were sacked from the garden.

Every sin has temporal consequences, AS WELL AS eternal consequences.

God dealt with the eternal consequences of their sins - redeeming them, shown by the coats of skin.

God dealt with the temporal consequences of their sins - KICKING them out of the garden of Eden!

Sing F Lau
"God clearly told Adam that he would die beforehand if he disobeyed, and here he is telling them that, sionce they disobeyed, they will certainly die in their sin!"

And they DID DIE - became separated from God.

And God DID NOT LEAVE them in that state of sin and misery.

God effectually called them out of their state of sin and death (spiritual separation from God). That enabled them to respond. God rebuke them, restored them, clothed them in the blood and righteousness of the Seed of the woman... before sacking them from the garden of Eden! God chastises them that are His.

It seems it is needful to point out ELEMENTARY things to you.

Brendan B
So do you believe that Adam and Eve - those who damned the entire human race (unless of course you believe God predetermined the damning of the human race...) - we saved? THEY DID NOT REPENT. So is God the unjust God who justifies the wicked who do not repent of their crimes? No. rather, he is the God of holiness and righteousness, who rewards those who earnestly seek Him.

Elementary or not, I will listen to the Word of God, but I think your interpretation is sickenly twisted.

Sing F Lau
@ "THEY DID NOT REPENT" - this statement has broken a few commandments:
- 3rd commandment: you have taken the name of God in vain.
- 9th commandment: you have bore false witness against Adam and Eve.

You are BLIND to the evidences that they repented.

The Scriptures bore a powerful witness in these words,
"And Adam called his wife’s name Eve; because she was the mother of all living." Gen 3:20.

Why did Adam call his wife's name Eve? Because he believed the gospel of the Seed of the Woman announced by God. Believing the gospel itself is repentance from sin of unbelief and falsehood of the devil. So, you have ignorantly breached the 9th commandment.

Also, the Scriptures declare: "Unto Adam ALSO and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them."

Please note the simple word ALSO, i.e. IN ADDITION TO. The question is, in addition to what? In addition to what God has already done for them... in addition to having effectually called them out of their state of sin and death (spiritual separation from God), which enabled them to respond and come before God to be rebuked and restored.

In ADDITION to eternal salvation (effectually calling them out of their state of sin and death), the LORD God ALSO took care of their temporal salvation... by visibly clothing them with coats of skins.

The LORD God ALSO clothed them with coats of skins, AS a visible token of what He has done to save them with the righteousness of the Lamb of God.

The LORD God clothing them with the coats of skins is proof that they did repent. So, you have ignorantly breached the 3rd commandment.

Sing F Lau
@"No. rather, he is the God of holiness and righteousness, who rewards those who earnestly seek Him."

This is a true statement... BUT you have perverted and twisted it to mean something else... that eternal salvation is a reward to sinners who earnestly seek God.

You refuse to accept the TRUTH that only those whom God has effectually called out of their state of sin and condemnation would ever seek the Lord. Man by nature is in ENMITY against God. By nature, there is NONE, no, not one, that seeks after God. (Rom 3:11).

Let God be true, but every man a LIAR.

Among God's children there are some that seek Him, a remnant seek Him earnestly. Many others enter the wide gate and walk the broad way, like their cousin Lot, who made shipwreck of their faith.

"Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."

The Book of Hebrews was written to God's children among the Jews (Jewish believers in Jesus Christ) who were tempted to return to the old covenant worship... It was NOT addressed at sinners dead in trespasses and sins to urge them to seek the Lord and be rewarded with salvation.

Please go and find a good teacher to help you to rightly divide the word of truth... Pleaseeeeeeeeeee! Don't continue to make a mess of yourself!

A fire inferno - a plea for help

Dear Brethren,
I want to thank each and everyone who responded to the call for help.

Sister Esther, the daughter of Alice's sister has written to acknowledge the gifts from the following that have been forwarded to her. I paste below her acknowledgment to the donors.

sing
=======

On Apr 27, 2010, at 9:37 AM, Esther Ling Hoong Hoong wrote:

Dear Brethen,

Greeting in the blessed name of our lord and saviour Jesus Christ.

I write to thank you from the bottom of my heart for responding to the appeal put out by Pastor Lau on behalf of my mother, Alice's 4th sister.

Pastor Lau has remitted to me the gift that were contributed from the following :

KES - RM1000.00
LKM - RM1000.00
ML - RM1144.80 ( S$500.00)
LWM -RM5672.75 ( S$2500.00 )
ScUsa -RM3188.29 (US1000.00)
SDC - RM800.00
Sydney - RM1448 (AUD 500.00) (June 1)
__________________
Total - RM14253.84
==================

Regards,
Esther Ling
on behalf of my mother

========================

The timber house completely burnt to the ground.

The timber tops of the next two houses completely gone!

Taken from the front. Scrap metal scavengers have arrived...
like vultures descending upon dead carcass!

The 4th house saved in the nick of time!

Dear Brethren out there,

I am writing this to ask for help.

On Wednesday (March 17) around noon time, some children were seen burning some rubbish behind a timber house, with thatch roof covered over with TARpaulin canvas. It was a school holiday week (Mar 14-21). To the right of this timber house is the house belonging to my wife's (Alice) sister. This house and the next few houses are double storey, with brick walls on the ground floor, while the first floor is completely timber. The house immediately to the left is a single storey brick house (the shell of this house was intact but the contents were burnt too when the glass windows melted away under the intense heat).

The weather has been extremely dry for several months now. Somehow, the timber house caught fire, and the inferno produced by the thatch roof, TARpaulin and timber spread to the next two houses in no time... despite the great effort by some neighbors to douse out the initial fire. The neighbor behind the timber house was the first to notice the timber house on fire, and set off the warning. By the time the fire men came, from a bigger town nearby, they could only prevent the fire from consuming the 4th house.

Alice's sister is a widow. The husband passed away a few years ago because of cancer. She survives on the proceeds from a small plot of palm oil plantation. She has a few sons, but they are the irresponsible type. She has a daughter (Esther Ling) who is a fine Christian, who were together with us in the same church in KL before we came to Penang. In this terrible accident, nothing was saved except the life of her grandchild whom she was baby-sitting. Everything else is consumed by the fire! Several other grand children were not home because of school holiday - away visiting their parents who work in far away.

I heard of the bad news on Thursday late morning. Alice and I made a trip to the little town (Ayer Tawar in Perak state) later in the afternoon. The sight was heartbreaking. We took the four pictures below... We spoke to some of the neighbors who are still in shock and terrified!

I write to seek your help for my sister in law. There is an effort to raise fund among her siblings. I want to do my part to show the love and care of Christian for her. I am making this need known to the Christians I am in fellowship with here and elsewhere.

I know needs are everywhere. But if the Lord move your heart to help this situation, I would be most grateful. Please contact me and I will let you have the details of the church account for this purpose.

a brother in Christ,
sing
====

Monergism or Synergism, Pure grace or Prostituted grace

Monergism of SOUND-BYTE and FURY only,

or Monergism of SENSE and FACT?

Do you really believe in Salvation by grace alone?

Is your grace really grace, or is it a mixture of grace and works?
Examine it. Purge out the adulteration!

Monergism began with this quote:
"A man is opposed to Christ, he hates his gospel, does not understand it and will not receive it-- the Holy Spirit comes, puts light into his darkened understanding, takes the chain from his bondaged will, gives liberty to his conscience, gives life to his dead soul, ... and the man becomes a new creature in Christ Jesus." - C.H. Spurgeon

Sing F Lau
Let me inquire: does the Holy Spirit do those things BEFORE or AFTER (i.e. logically, not chronologically) the Father has removed the condemnation of death through the imputation of the righteousness of life?

Does the Holy Spirit do such things to one who is still under the condemnation of death, or does He do such thing to one whom the Father has already justified, i.e. removed the condemnation of death, and applied the righteousness of life?

Which must happen first logically: justification by God the Father, or regeneration by God the Spirit?

Are any immorality and lawlessness involved for the Spirit to give life to one who is still under a condemnation of death whom God the Father has not freely justified by His grace?

Monergism
Sing, you are thinking in temporal terms. There is no time sequence which takes place here. Regeneration and Justification occur simultaneously, concurrently. Like heat and fire. One has causal priority though. If you hit a pool ball it rolls and strikes another. Which one hits first? Neither. They both strike at the same time YET one causes the other to move. Likewise, regeneration of the Spirit works faith in a man, he believes and is justified. 1 John 5:1 says all who believe "HAVE BEEN born of God" (past tense with continual action). As Packer said, "The saving power of the cross does not depend on faith being added to it; its saving power is such that faith flows from it." Salvation is a whole package. All these blessings flow from the cross ... but the Spirit takes these blessings and applies them to those the Father has given the Son (John 6:37, 63,65).

Sing F Lau
You state it correctly: 'regeneration and justification occur simultaneously.' I would insist that LOGICALLY and CAUSALLY, it is justification precedes regeneration.

Granted that 'regeneration and justification occur simultaneously', and that regeneration precedes faith (most certainly chronologically in this case... it always takes time for a regenerated to hear and understand, and then believe) - then the popular notion that justification is by faith alone is obviously and plainly an error! Justification PRECEDES faith.

"The reason why any are justified IS NOT because they have faith; but the reason why they have faith IS because they are justified." A Circular Letter on JUSTIFICATION issued by Philadelphia Baptist Association on October 4th, 1785.

Justification by God involves the imputation of Christ's righteousness to the ungodly condemned man; God declaring a guilty condemned man not guilty but righteous. A guilty condemned man is incapable of believing in order to be justified by God.

Justification by faith involves the imputation of believer's faith to the believer (as in Gen 15), i.e. God blessing the faith of the believer unto the believer such that he EXPERIENCES the blessedness of his justified stated by God's free grace. Believing, he EVIDENCES that he is a justified man by God's free grace.

God justifies the UNGODLY: God declares a guilty condemned sinner not guilty but righteous by imputing the righteousness of Christ to the guilty condemned sinners.

Faith justifies the believing ones: faith declares that the believing ones are the justified AND regenerated of God!

The two aspects of justification are VERY difference.

Read this article here to note the vast difference!
http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2009/09/therefore-as-arminians-reject-doctrine.html

Biblical distinction is the essence of sound theology!


Monergism
Sing, you said, "it always takes time for a regenerated to hear and understand" ... I would revise this statement simply because the Scripture declares that we are born through the word of truth. These things do not happen in a void. The gospel which we cast indiscriminately is like a seed to which the Holy Spirit germinates, so to speak, where He wills. When spoken in the power of the Holy Spirit, the word of God has the power to graciously open people's eyes, unplug their uncircumcised ears, change the disposition of their hearts, draw them to faith, and save them (James 1:18, 1 Peter 1:23, 25). 1 Thes 1:4, 5 shows word and Spirit cannot be separated: "For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction..." Calvin said, "the Lord has so knit together the certainty of his word and his Spirit, that our minds are duly imbued with reverence for the word when the Spirit shining upon it enables us there to behold the face of God; and, on the other hand, we embrace the Spirit with no danger of delusion when we recognize him in his image, that is, in his word."

Sing F Lau
You do believe in gospel regeneration (the gospel is the necessary means in regeneration), don't you? I don't. However, I do believe in gospel CONVERSION!

Was Abraham a justified and regenerated man in Gen 12-14?

Was Cornelius a regenerated man before he ever heard the gospel from Peter?

Monergism
Sing, Thank you for your thoughts. Imho, logic must always submit to the Scripture.

1 Pet 23 since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God
18 Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Cornelius heard the old testament and was justified through it well before Peter came along. This did not happen in some void.

Appreciate your comments but this is not the forum to get into a further long discussion about this. We definitely have different understandings of this issue.

Sing F Lau
The whole Scriptures is logical. God communicates LOGICALLY with RATIONAL creatures, especially those with a SOUND mind!

I believe the living and abiding word in 1Pet 1:23 refers to the eternal life-giving Word, the eternal life-giving Logos, and not the preached or written word.

Cornelius was enough to dismiss the popular errors that regeneration, justification, and faith are simultaneous.


Sing F Lau
I am pretty certain that you understand that legal Justification by and before God requires the imputation of Christ's righteousness (for there is none other available) to a condemned criminal. Imputation of faith, the act of believing, HAS NOTHING to do with the justification of a guilty condemned man before God - even though nearly everyone thinks so. There is near wholesale delusion and deception in modern time!

Read this simple definition of Justification from an old confession of faith, and say what you think:

"Those whom God effectually calleth, He also freely justifieth,(1) not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous;(2) not for anything wrought in them, or done by them, but for Christ's sake alone;(3) not by imputing faith itself, the act of believing, or any other evangelical obedience to them, as their righteousness; but by imputing Christ's active obedience unto the whole law, and passive obedience in His death for their whole and sole righteousness,(4) they receiving and resting on Him and His righteousness by faith, which faith they have not of themselves; it is the gift of God.(5)"

And please remember that justification by God's grace is a distinct act, separate, and prior to the reception of the justification through faith.

Did you read those words, "NOT BY IMPUTING FAITH ITSELF..." but nearly everyone mutter 'justification by faith alone.'

Did you read those words, NOT BY "ANY OTHER EVANGELICAL OBEDIENCE TO THEM" - faith, the act of believing is an evangelical obedience!

Did you read those words, "NOT FOR ANYTHING DONE IN THEM..." - faith is something worked and done in them!

Did you notice those words, "... He also FREELY justifieth..."

If justification is by faith in any way or sense, then justification is conditioned on faith in some way or manner, THEN justification is no longer by God's free grace!

Why are those who claim themselves to be the descendants of those who frame those doctrinal confessions are SO BLINDED to the plain and simple truth summarized by their forefathers, and insisted on the mantra of justification by faith alone, while the Scriptures declares, "... and NOT by faith only."

Read more here: http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2008/01/by-faith-alone-vs-not-by-faith-alone.html

Monergism
Yes, no one disagrees with you on this Sing. Salvation is by grace ALONE. Faith being a product of that grace. That is the whole focus of Monergism.com. Justification through faith was important to the Reformers because it helped to express and to safeguard their answer to another, MORE vital, question, namely, whether sinners are wholly helpless in their sin, and whether God is to be thought of as saving them by free, unconditional, invincible grace, not only justifying them for Christ's sake when they come to faith, but also raising them from the death of sin by His quickening Spirit in order to bring them to faith.


Sing F Lau
"...not only justifying them for Christ's sake WHEN they come to faith..."
On moment you say, 'no one disagrees with you on this, "salvation is by grace ALONE" and in the next breath, your statement shows that you are still in deep disagreement against the truth summarized in the Confession of faith. You affirmed your agreement with the heresy of legal justification by faith alone. In these words, you have just stated the SERIOUS ERROR again - justification by their faith!

They come to faith BECAUSE they HAVE BEEN JUSTIFIED! Not IN ORDER to be justified!

Along the way, some monumental and subtle error took place. The crafty devil caused the careless and unthinking children to exchange pure gold the fathers left to them for a lump of gold looking dung!

Let me explain.

The Scriptures teach that God FREELY justifies an ungodly condemned dead man by His grace, by imputing the righteousness of life to him and forgiving him all his sins. This gives divine warrant for the Spirit to regenerate this justified man.

Thus FREELY justified and regenerated by grace, this man is able to believe when the gospel ministry is brought to him. In believing, his faith justifies him, i.e. his faith certifies, demonstrates, evidences, and vindicates that he is ALREADY justified and regenerated by God's FREE grace, his believing gives him the authority to claim that he is a child of God, since 'whoever believes HAS eternal life' - believing EVIDENCES eternal life.

This is where the disaster took place.

The LEGAL justification by God's FREE grace is not distinguished from the EXPERIENTIAL justification by believer's faith.

WORSE STILL, the experiential justification by believer's faith is CONFUSED AS, and FUSED WITH the legal justification by God's free grace.

Thus they end up with the damnable heresy of legal justification by believer's faith, and by believer's faith only!

How the devil has succeeded in deceiving so many to embrace a lie as though it is the truth!

You said, "Salvation is by grace ALONE. Faith being a product of that grace. "

My simple questions,
- How could faith, a product (fruit and effect) of the grace that freely bestows the salvation become the INSTRUMENT to obtain that same salvation?
- How could faith, a product of the salvation wrought by grace alone, become the instrumental means of receiving that salvation?

What a mess of confusion and irrationalism brought about by sound-bytes!