Some doctrines are like these stranded boats"We both believe in regeneration, but you believe that eternal life is granted at regeneration, thus, the gospel is not essential to his salvation/eternal life; while I believe that eternal life is granted when the sinner comes to faith in Christ, thus the gospel is essential to his receiving of eternal life/salvation. Please let me know whether I have correctly understood your understanding."
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Dear brother Sing,
My comments on these two paragraphs of yours:
sing said,
"Preaching and the ministry of the word is necessary and needed to gather into the visible church those whom Christ has saved for Himself and whom His Spirit will regenerate. Some are very mistaken to think that the gospel preaching brings eternal salvation to sinners. The gospel preaching announces the glorious salvation that has taken place... and those who are regenerated will believe such good news... because the good news is already true of them! Conversion is important. That's why the risen Lord instituted the GC. As a father, I am not only interested in fathering lives. I am also interested in nurturing life that have been conceived. The Triune God ordains the ministry of the word for the nurturing of the elect whom he has saved by His and regenerated by His Spirit. And He has committed this means into the hands of the church in the GC. Therefore the number of God's redeemed elect (already eternally saved by the finished work of Christ) gathered into the visible NT church depends upon the faithfulness of the NT church in obeying and carrying out the GC. That is why the church must take the GC seriously because the temporal spiritual well-being of God's elects on this earth, here and now depends greatly upon whether they receive the benefits of the ministry of the word. The temporal well beings of the immortal souls conceived by me depends very much upon my wife's faithfulness in bringing to them the benefits in this temporal life."
My comments:
Is preaching the gospel merely to gather the elect of God and for nurturing the elect? I believe it is more than just that. Without the gospel sinners cannot be saved because God has appointed the preaching of the gospel as the means to save sinner. Even in the case of Cornelius, the gospel is necessary to bring him to eternal life.
Acts 10:14, who will tell you words by which you and all your household will be saved. ----- Peter must preach the words of God so that Cornelius and his household will be saved.
Acts 10:18, when they these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, 'Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life." ----- repentance leads to eternal life. Repentance comes through the hearing of God's words.(as preached by Peter.)
Acts 13:46, then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, 'It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles. ----- the rejection of the preached word leads to the rejection of everlasting life.
Gee
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Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 00:08:27 +0800
Dear Gee,
Thank you for your few comments. I do understand them. Please continue believing what you believe: that one believes IN ORDER to have eternal life.
I hope you understand my position too - that one believes because he has been bestowed eternal life by God's free and sovereign grace when he was spiritually dead in sins and trespasses. It is alright that we disagree. One can only believes what one presently understands what the Scripture teaches.
See my comments, marked ##
Gee = Is preaching the gospel merely to gather the elect of God and for nuturing the elect? I believe it is more than just that. Without the gospel sinners cannot be saved because God has appointed the preaching of the gospel as the means to save sinner. Even in the case of Cornelius, the gospel is necessary to bring him to eternal life.==
## First, your word 'merely' is mischievous. Do I take it that you do agree that the gospel IS INDEED for the gathering into the visible church those whom Christ has saved for Himself and whom His Spirit has regenerated, BUT NOT MERELY THAT?
You also said, 'I believe it is more than that.' Do I take it that you do agree that the gospel IS INDEED for the gathering into the visible church those whom Christ has saved for Himself and whom His Spirit has regenerated, BUT MORE THAN THAT? (I very much doubt this is what you mean... since your 'more than that' is diametrically opposed to and repudiates completely the major premise!).
So please clarify for me. I need to know precisely whether what you are actually saying. I don't want to misunderstand you.
You said, Acts 10:14, "who will tell you words by which you and all your household will be saved." ----- Peter must preach the words of God so that Cornelius and his household will be saved.
## Asking questions is a wonderful way to learn. I am only asking to simulate some thinking. You may consider to provide your answers.
- Was Cornelius a regenerated man before Peter came to preach the gospel to him, when the angel spoke these words to him?
- If he was, how did this regeneration come about? Was it by something he did, like hearing the gospel preached, etc?
- If he was, what kind of life was birthed in him? Is it spiritual and eternal life?
- If he wasn't, how would you explain the descriptions of Cornelius before he met Peter to hear the gospel for the first time.
Consider the descriptions such as ... he was a devout man, one who feared God... prayed to God always... whose works of righteousness have come up for a memorial before God.....
Are these descriptions of an unregenerated or a regenerated man? Compare these descriptions with the description of ALL natural man in Romans 3:10-18. May the Lord grant you light.
You also said, "Peter must preach the words of God so that Cornelius and his household will be saved."
I want to ask, 'Will be saved' in what sense?
Do you agree that there are several aspects of salvation spoken of in the Scriptures?
Only those who
- HAVE BEEN SAVED (by the finished work of Christ from the eternal condemnation upon sins, and applied personally at effectual calling) are among those who
- ARE BEING SAVED (through the ministry of the gospel from the consequences of sins in this life here and now), and
- SHALL BE SAVED (through the glorification at the second coming of Christ.)
I have said this several times... perhaps you don't agree. or perhaps it has not registered in your mind. Or perhaps you don't understand. Whatever... I apologize for repeating.
When you are exhorted to work out your own salvation (Phi 2:12), what salvation is spoken of? What kind of salvation are God's regenerated people to work out in their lives? Eternal salvation? Or temporal salvation to those who HAVE BEEN GIVEN ETERNAL SALVATION?
When apostle Paul told Timothy these words, "Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you,' what salvation is spoken of? Eternal salvation? Or temporal salvation to those who HAVE BEEN SAVED, bestowed eternal salvation at regeneration, the birthing of eternal life? A faithful ministry will save the pastor and his believing hearers from the great evils of ignorance and darkness, false doctrines and false practices (with all the evil consequences) in this life. Could a preacher save (temporal deliverances though the ministry of the word) himself and his believing hearers unless they HAVE BEEN SAVED eternally by the finished work of Christ applied to them at regeneration?
When apostle Paul said these words, 'Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control' (1Ti 2:15), what salvation is spoken of? Eternal salvation? Or temporal salvation to those who HAVE BEEN SAVED? Temporal salvation when believing women obey the gospel commands and play their biblical roles and save themselves from all sorts of miseries... and enjoy the blessings of God?
Do you believe that it is only those who HAVE BEEN SAVED by the finished work of Christ and applied at regeneration that are capable of BEING SAVED by the ministry of the word (including the preaching of the gospel), and only those who HAVE BEEN SAVED shall BE SAVED at glorification?
May the Lord grant us to see yet more light.
I have rambled on too much
sing
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Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 01:21:32 +0800
Dear Gee,
See my comments ## on the rest of the verses quoted:
Gee: "Acts 11:18, when they these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, 'Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life." ----- repentance leads to eternal life. Repentance comes through the hearing of God's words.(as preached by Peter.)"
## It is very easy just to hear the sound of the words... and fail to catch the sense of the words.
I think you have made a VERY BIG JUMP from God granting to them the 'repentance to life' to 'man's repentance leads to eternal life.' However you bridged the two, I know not.
I would make a few observations for your kind consideration:
1. 'Repentance to life' is a spiritual grace granted by God, i.e. worked in the heart by the Spirit of God. This is VERY different from saying that a person's act of repentance leads to eternal life. A person dead in sins and trespasses cannot possibly believe or repent. Read John 3:3-6.
2. The Jews, who had always believed that 'repentance to life' was granted solely to them only, were constrained to acknowledge that the same grace HAS ALSO been granted by God to the Gentiles.
3. Repenting and believing are the manifestation and evidence that the grace of 'repentance to life' has been granted. The graces of repentance and faith are worked in the hearts of those who have been regenerated unto eternal life. With the grace of repentance to life, those who hear the outward gospel call will respond. Their response manifests the granting of the repentance to life. There is spiritual life to animate the spiritual activity of repentance and faith.
4. Repentance indeed comes through the hearing of God's words... but repentance is IMPOSSIBLE without the prior regeneration by the Holy Spirit unto eternal life.
Gee: "Acts 13:46, then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, 'It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles. ----- the rejection of the preached word leads to the rejection of everlasting life."
## The idea that 'rejection of the preached word leads to the rejection of everlasting life' FLOWS from the erroneous and illogical idea that the worthiness unto everlasting life is dependent upon some acts of men, e.g. the reception of the word of God." Basic truth is: spiritually dead man must first be given eternal life before he can perform spiritual acts like believing the gospel!
It makes me tremble to think that such idea is even entertained!!! Whatever has happened to the settled and non-negotiable doctrine of salvation by grace, that eternal life is a free gift of God in Christ Jesus... totally and completely unmerited, independent of any acts of man; and without which MAN CANNOT see nor enter the kingdom of God!
If we are led to understand the passage above to teach in the slightest manner that 'worthiness unto everlasting life is dependent upon some acts of men' we have repudiated the most fundamental tenet of the Christian faith, that eternal life is the free gift of God... with absolutely no one worthy of it!
I believe apostle is simply declaring that the rejection of the preached word EVIDENCES or DEMONSTRATES the absence of eternal life in them. Therefore there is no further purpose labouring among them. He is declaring that he is moving on.
That's my two-cents comments.
brother sing
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Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 10:05:06 +0800
Dear brother Sing,
I think it becomes clear to me that our main difference lies here.
Your understanding:
You believe that at regeneration, eternal life is granted, and then faith (repentance and believe) comes later depends on whether the regenerated person hears the gospel or not. If he does, then he will repent and believes, thus, to you, faith is the evidence of eternal life. The Gospel is not essential to salvation/eternal life. Chronologically, regeneration and faith need not take place at the same time. (Do correct me if I have misrepresented you.)
My understanding is this:
When a sinner is regenerated by the Holy Spirit, he is given the ability to understand God's truth, at the same time without fail, he will be led to hear the gospel and thus, have faith and be saved. To me, the gospel is essential because faith comes by hearing of the gospel.
Chronologically, all these take place at the same time (it is a package). Personally, I will not want to try to figure out what exactly takes place at regeneration because this is a mysterious work of the Holy Spirit, as the Lord says to Nicodemus (Jn 3) and I don't think the Bible tells us exactly what happens either (unless I am mistaken). To me, faith is the evidence of regeneration, and faith is the instrument to receive salvation. Gospel preaching is essential to salvation. And I believe this is consistent with Acts 11:14, and 11:18; 13:46.
Does man contribute to his salvation? Not at all, all of God's free grace. Regeneration is God's sovereign work, and faith is God's free gift (Eph 2:8). The hearing of Gospel? God is sovereign and faithful, He will make sure the gospel is preached/shared/communicated to the regenerated person. Our God is great!
I think this explains why we understand Cornelius's conversion differently. The issue we need to look at is this: Can we separate regeneration from faith, or are they chronological one?
We both believe in regeneration, but you believe that eternal life is granted at regeneration, thus, the gospel is not essential to his salvation/eternal life; while I believe that eternal life is granted when the sinner comes to faith in Christ, thus the gospel is essential to his receiving of eternal life/salvation. Please let me know whether I have correctly understood your understanding.
Gee
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Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:57:22 +0800
Dear Gee,
Thanks for your comments. I will reply your post in parts in order to keep them short. Please read them patiently. I believe you may yet learn something fresh from the Scriptures. It took me several years of rigorous examination... to move to where I am now. I may still be wrong... then I need to be shown a more consistent way.
My response marked ##
Gee: "Your understanding: "You believe that at regeneration, eternal life is granted, and then faith (repentance and believe) comes later depends on whether the regenerated person hears the gospel or not. If he does, then he will repent and believes, thus, to you, faith is the evidence of eternal life. The Gospel is not essential to salvation/eternal life. Chronologically, regeneration and faith need not take place at the same time. (Do correct me if I have misrepresented you.)"
## You are close enough. Logically and chronologically, regeneration must precedes the initial conversion [repentance and faith in Christ]. Regeneration is independent of any human means. Conversion is dependent entirely upon the ministry of the word. Faith comes by hearing.
However, I would need to add that the ministry of the word is NECESSARY ONLY for timely/temporal salvation... much like the nappies, milk, clothes are necessary for the baby's temporal well being. They have nothing to do with the conception of the immortal soul of the baby, and they are utterly irrelevant when the life does not exist! I hope you understand the illustration. But your statement that the gospel is not essential to salvation (understood in its eternal sense, in contrast to temporal sense) is a fair representation of my understanding.
So, you must always quote that I believe that the gospel is not necessary for the eternal salvation, but necessary for the temporal salvation of an elect. Eternal salvation must be bestowed first by free grace ALONE before an elect can be brought into temporal salvation by the ministry of the word.
Eternal salvation results from the DIVINE act alone, and it is instantaneous, complete, and unrepeatable. This is pure grace rightly understood.
Temporal salvation comes through the HUMAN acts in response to the DIVINE grace that has worked in that human heart. IF YOU GET THIS POINT CORRECTLY, YOU HAVE UNDERSTOOD WHERE I AM NOW.
I would be very pleased for you to show me where this understanding is inconsistent or inadequate with the teaching of Scriptures.
seeking and learning with you,
sing
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Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:59:01 +0800
Dear Gee,
Let me continue in my comments:
Gee: "Personally, I will not want to try to figure out what exactly takes place at regeneration because this is a mysterious work of the Holy Spirit, as the Lord says to Nicodemus (Jn 3) and I don't think the Bible tells us exactly what happens either (unless I am mistaken). To me, faith is the evidence of regeneration, and faith is the instrument to receive salvation. Gospel preaching is essential to salvation. And I believe this is consistent with Acts 11:14, and 11:18; 13:46."
## Deut 29:29 'The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.'
There is indeed a mysterious element in the regeneration. However, it is always good to embrace what the Scriptures does say PLAINLY - for what is revealed DO BELONG US, to be believed and preached!
The Scriptures has revealed VERY PLAINLY AND EXPLICITLY about these few things:
- Regeneration precedes faith. (I think you do agree). 'Unless one is born again, he CANNOT...' He CANNOT what? Why does he CANNOT? Surely there are plain answers to these simple Qs.
- Regeneration is NEW birth by God's sovereign effectual grace. What is begotten in the new birth? A life? What kind of a life? - What is the biblical adjective describing this life birthed by the Holy Spirit?
You may be interested to know that the term 'spiritual life' is NOT FOUND even once in the whole of the Bible (KJ and NKJ translation, at least).
- Here are some HARD DATA for your consideration. In the KJ version, 'everlasting life' is used 11 times, 'eternal life' is used 26 times, life eternal and life everlasting are used 4 times each. All these occur in the NT except 'everlasting life' once in the OT. (If you want the software for this exercise, you can download from my 'Online Bible' CD).
Eternal life is spiritual life... birth at regeneration... It is this eternal life birthed at regeneration that enables a child of God to believe.
- Are you afraid to give plain answers to these questions, because your answers MAY show forth the errors of your beliefs? Are we reluctant to be converted to the plain teaching of the Bible?
- May I suggest that you abandon the utterly unbiblical idea of a spiritual life birthed at regeneration, and then eternal life at faith in Jesus Christ. This idea CANNOT be supported by Scriptures. Period.
- The life birthed at regeneration is eternal life. The non-biblical phrase 'spiritual life' is an adjective explicative of that eternal life.
Faith and eternal life are put side by side in the Scriptures (I have shown you many such passages from John's Gospel). What is your answer to the question I posed there? There are only two positions:
- It is either that faith in the gospel enables a person to obtain eternal life, or.
- It is that eternal life birthed at regeneration that enables a person to believe the gospel.
There is nothing mysterious about this matter - the chronological and logical order of things - is plain and simple for all who would humbly want to know and embrace the truth.
Why shut your eyes to the plain and obvious truth?
Gee: "To me, faith is the evidence of regeneration, and faith is the instrument to receive salvation. Gospel preaching is essential to salvation. And I believe this is consistent with Acts 11:14, and 11:18; 13:46."
## Very well said, faith is indeed evidence of regeneration... because without the prior regeneration, there is no possibility of believing the good news of the glorious salvation already accomplished by Jesus Christ.
Major premise: Faith is the evidence of regeneration.
Minor premise: Regeneration is the bestowal of eternal life.
Conclusion: Faith is the evidence of eternal life ALREADY bestowed at regeneration.
Delusion: Faith is in order to obtain eternal life.
You hold to the major premise but reject the necessary conclusion. Instead you hold on to a lie.
I fear that I am repeating myself here. The difficulty boils down to how we view regeneration. How do you see regeneration? I see regeneration as the gracious application of the eternal salvation upon an elect. Regeneration speaks of God's sovereign and gracious act in applying unto an elect of God the eternal salvation that Christ has secured. Because I see it this way, faith, which is the fruit of regeneration, evidences the eternal salvation which has been applied at regeneration.
How can faith, which is the OUTCOME, the EFFECT of the application of the eternal salvation at regeneration be the instrument to receive eternal salvation? This is plain nonsensical! HOW CAN AN EFFECT OF SALVATION BESTOWED BE THE MEANS TO RECEIVE THAT SAME SALVATION? Please explain the logic and rationality of this who idea. Don't you see any problem with such idea? It is the same as saying, breathing is necessary to receive life!!! Breathing is an effect of life, an evidence of life. Breathing is necessary to receive and enjoy the temporal blessings of life... but not to receive life.
Isn't this something SO VERY SIMPLE. There must be a severe theological prejudice or willful ignorance somewhere... perhaps a very serious confusion between life itself and the acts and benefits that accompany that life. Faith is necessary to the conscious enjoyment of the temporal benefits of that eternal salvation... but not necessary to receive eternal salvation, because faith is a blessing of that very eternal salvation.
I agree that faith (believing the gospel message of the accomplished eternal salvation by Christ) is the means to enter into a conscious and subjective knowledge and enjoyment of the gospel benefits. That is salvation here and now - i.e. temporal salvation.
sing
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Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:57:24 +0800
Dear Gee,
Let me continue to comments on your comments. It is my desire to search the Scriptures together with you, to RIGHTLY divide the Word of God.
Gee: "My understanding is this: "When a sinner is regenerated by the Holy Spirit, he is given the ability to understand God's truth, at the same time without fail, he will be led to hear the gospel and thus, have faith and be saved. To me, the gospel is essential because faith comes by hearing of the gospel. Chronologically, all these take place at the same time (it is a package)."
## Thank you for stating your present position.
I think I do understand your position completely. I WAS there and struggled for several years. I can no longer remain there because this position is not true to biblical data. That position is wholly inadequate, and inconsistent to plain biblical data. There are many... but I will just endeavour to point out just a few glaring inconsistencies and deficiencies, just based on what you have written above.
I CONCLUDE from your statement the following:
(Please correct me if I conclude incorrectly or unfairly! If I do conclude correctly, would you kindly acknowledge whether you accept those conclusions are representing your position)
Some deficiencies:
1. Your 'at the same time without fail' is at best INADEQUATE, for there are God's regenerated elect who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the word.
- You may solve this inadequacy by resorting to the 'exception' clause. However, once you employ your 'exception clause' you explicitly introduce another bigger problem - there are different ways of eternal salvation for God's elect - one way by hearing and believing the gospel, and another way without hearing and believing the gospel. This is the inevitable conclusion even though it may be strenuously denied.
- What is it that guarantees 'at the same time without fail'? Divine sovereignty? Is divine sovereign subject to failure? Has divine sovereignty failed, since we can't deny the fact that there are God's elect who did not hear the gospel nor are capable to express faith (this fact is at least acknowledged by the Particular Baptists who framed of the 1689 LCoF).
2. Eternal salvation is purely and solely by the regenerating work of God unto eternal life. Gospel ministry is to inform and announce the good news of that eternal salvation which God Himself has purposed, Christ Himself has accomplished and the Holy Spirit Himself has applied to each elect individually at God's approved and appointed time. The gospel ministry is UTTER foolishness to all except those to whom the eternal salvation has been applied by the Holy Spirit.
3. Your 'at the same time without fail' is at worst a PLAIN DENIAL of the IMPARTIALITY of God in accepting sinners.
Please study Acts 10:34-35: This verse is very significant. It will be a good exercise to print out this section and use it for a bible study session in your church. Let the people actually STUDY the Bible!!!!!
"Then Peter opened his mouth and said: 'In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.'"
When Peter was inspired to utter those momentous words (these are momentous words indeed!):
- What glorious truth dawned upon him?
- What momentous truth was revealed to and understood by him?
- What was his deficient thought/belief until then (i.e. did not perceive until then)?
- In what sense does God show no partiality? (the same phrase is used in Romans 2:11.)
- In what context is the impartiality of God spoken of here?
- On what basis does God accept people?
- On the basis of whether they hear and believe the gospel?
- Or on the basis of their fear of God and the works of righteousness ?
- What explains the fear of God and works of righteousness of such people who have not heard the gospel? Something done to them, e.g. gospel preached to them? Something they do, e.g. like believing the gospel? Or something God sovereignly done to them - the divine and sovereign (i.e. without man's playing a part) work of regeneration?
- Concerning the 'whoever fears God and works righteousness' found in every nation who are accepted (present tense... ) by God - has the gospel been communicated to them? have they heard and believe the gospel?
- What is the explanation that there are men like Cornelius in every nation who fear God (simple present tense) and work righteousness (simple present tense) BUT who have not had the gospel brought to them?
- IS IT NOT GOD'S SOVEREIGN WORK OF REGENERATION? And is not the GC to bring the gospel to such that they may be informed of the great work of salvation already accomplished by Christ and applied to them by the work of the Holy Spirit?
- Those who do believe the gospel, is it not because eternal salvation has been applied to them at regeneration, PRIOR to their believing? If so, isn't faith an EVIDENCE of that eternal salvation ALREADY applied at regeneration?
- Yes, faith is necessary... necessary for what? That's a different subject altogether... dealt with quite sufficiently in the past.
[Bee, KY and LKM, if you are still listening and following, please give some time to study and answer those questions on Acts 10:34-35. I would be interested in your answers, and your conclusion. My advice, DO NOT FEAR to go where the Scriptures lead you.]
4. GOSPEL PREACHING and BELIEVING THE GOSPEL IS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY - we both agree on that. So, please never misrepresent me on this. HOWEVER, the question is: absolutely necessary for what? (It is like saying and asking: nappies, milks and clothes are absolutely necessary... but necessary for what? For the life that already exists, or to bring life into existence?) To whom is the gospel message relevant to? Whom among the human race will receive and believe the gospel?
You believe it is necessary for eternal salvation. I believe this is INCONSISTENT AND DEFICIENT.
The simple reason is that only those who have the eternal salvation applied to them already at regeneration (like Cornelius) is able to benefit from the gospel ministry... will believe the good news of their eternal salvation already accomplished and applied to them. The gospel ministry will bring much temporal salvation to them in this brief life as their await for their final redemption at glorification.
There is a VAST range of temporal salvation brought by the ministry of the word to God's regenerated elect. It ranges from those who never hear the gospel, to those who sit under faithful ministry of the word. And among those who sit under the faithful ministry of the word, those regenerated elect who respond better to the means of grace will experience greater temporal salvation - quantitatively and qualitatively.
The eternal salvation of each elect is as sealed and as certain and as complete when God sovereignly, at His approved and appointed time, bestowed eternal life to them at regeneration.
b. I will continue if you are still interested to hear... some glaring inconsistencies and deficiencies of your position... as I see it. Please remember that I am OUT-fallible, and not IN-fallible. :-)
seeking and learning with you,
sing
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Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 08:59:29 +0800
Dear brother Sing,
My comments in marked 'Gee'.
sing: I CONCLUDE from your statement the following: (Please correct me if I conclude incorrectly or unfairly! If I do conclude correctly, would you kindly acknowledge whether you accept those conclusions are representing your position)
Gee: I do believe that 'all elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word' (1689 LCoF, ch 10, art. 3) is indeed an exception to the norm. God is sovereign in His ways of saving sinners, it is all grace whether it is through the normal way or the exceptional way. For the normal people who are capable of being called by the ministry of the Word, God's sovereignty will ensure they will hear the gospel.
There are many exceptions to God's way of dealing with us. Eg. i.] the Bible says the wages of sin is death. Yet not all sinners die, there were exceptions to this: Elijah and Enoch. ii]. it is appointed for men to die once, but after this, judgment. Yet Lazarus died and then was resurrected, and there are others who died and was resurrected.
Obviously God is free to act above the norm as and when He chooses. After all, He is God. But at the same time, we cannot draw/formulate our doctrines from the exceptions, because they are the exceptions.
sing : Please study Acts 10:34-35: This verse is very significance. It will be a good exercise to print out this section and use it for a bible study session in your church. Let the people actually STUDY the Bible!!!!!
"Then Peter opened his mouth and said: ³In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him."
Gee: What was Peter's problem (in fact the Jewish Christians as well)? Acts 11:1-2.
Their problem is one of race and culture. The Jews have always look upon themselves as a special people of God, the Gentiles are 'dogs'. They have always believed that if the Gentile should enjoy God's blessing, they should be converted to "Jews" first, that is, be circumcised and embrace their Jewish traditions. That is why eventually the Council at Jerusalem wrote the letter to clarify this (Acts 15:24)
Through the vision given to Peter at Acts 10, he was fully convinced that whoever God will save, nobody must reject just because they are not Jews. In Acts 10:34-35, shows that Peter was fully convinced about this matter when he heard that God had also prepared Cornelius for this great event, that is God's saving mercy will dawn on the Gentiles by His grace and nothing else. So in these two verses, it shows that Peter realize that what God is able to save in one race, He is able to do the same in another race. What is acceptable to God? It is the fear of God and the works of righteousness.
Is Peter saying that Cornelius is saved at this point before he preaches the gospel to him? There is no evidence to indicate that. 10:4, merely indicates what kind of man Cornelius was. He was sincere and religious. And God knows that. Are all God-fearers saved people? There is nothing to indicate that.
In fact, the evidences indicate otherwise, look at Acts 13:16, 26. Paul warned them (the Jews and the God fearers) not to despise the glad tidings (13:40-41) that was sent to them (13:26, the word of this salvation has been sent; 13:32, we declare to you glad tidings...)
What is this glad tidings about? It is about the forgiveness of sin, v38; it is about 'by Him everyone who believes is justified......,' v39. Obviously, their sins need to be forgiven, they are not yet justified before God unless they believe. They need to hear the gospel and believe in order to be saved, that is, have their sin forgiven and be justified before God.
Was Cornelius an exception to this? Again, there is nothing to indicate that. In fact he needs to hear the words by which he and all his household will be saved. (Acts 11:14). He need to believe in Christ in order to receive the remission of sins (Acts 10:43).
Is there any evidence in the Scripture to indicate that the Gospel is necessary for temporal salvation and not for eternal salvation? Is there such a thing as temporal salvation (this is new to me)?
How do you explain the following two verses:
i.] Jn 3:36, He who believes in the has everlasting life, and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
ii.] James 1:18, Of his own will He brought us forth by the word of truth.......
All these verses (in fact many more) indicate that believing the truth (the gospel) is essential to receive eternal life, otherwise God's wrath is still upon us. This is against what you believe, that is, a person can be regenerated and may not have faith because he has not heard the gospel, and yet has everlasting life! But Jn 3:36, says a person who does not believe has no everlasting life, shall not see life, and God's wrath is still upon him.
Gee
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Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 19:27:43 +0800
Brother Gee
I hope to be brief this time. My new comment marked ## Yours in colour.
Gee: " I do believe that 'all elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word' (1689 LCoF, ch 10, art. 3) is indeed an exception to the norm… Obviously God is free to act above the norm as and when He chooses. After all, He is God. But at the same time, we cannot draw/formulate our doctrines from the exceptions, because they are the exceptions.
## I do understand what you are saying. You can see it as an exception (with its attendant inconsistencies) or you can see it in another way, which I believe is perfectly biblical.
In term of eternal salvation, there is no exception or norm. The examples you pointed out are interesting but hardly applicable. In all these exception, the way they are saved is still EXACTLY THE SAME, even though the external circumstances attending each of them may vary greatly
Romans 8:29-30 says, "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
Sadly, this glorious passage is so often understood as though it says this [note all the additions]
"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called [effectual call to grace and salvation, but so many take this as gospel call to conversion] and whom he called, THEM HE ALSO CONVERTED: AND WHOM HE CONVERTED, them he also justified: and whom he justified, HE ALSO SANCTIFIED: AND WHOM HE SANCTIFIED, them he also glorified."
I feel that many have have conveniently and UNCONSCIOUSLY added and demanded more things as necessary for the ETERNAL SALVATION [sic] of God's elect that God Himself DOES NOT require.
[As I demonstrated before, the justification spoken of here CANNOT be justification by personal faith in Christ. It is the personal application of legal justification at regeneration... because this aspect of justification is absolutely true of every elect.
There is NO EXCEPTION in God saving sinners eternally. When He bestows eternal life at regeneration, that regenerated person is destined for eternal glory... no ifs, no buts, regardless of the degree and amounts of gospel blessings he may experience and enjoy in this life before entering glory.
However the gospel blessings and benefits, quantitatively and qualitatively, a regenerated elect may enjoy in this brief life is dependent upon many human factors. Some enjoy none... others to a greatly varying measures, depending on such factors as the purity of the gospel preached to them, availability of the various means of grace, the quality of the ministry of the word, the quality of pastoral oversight and care, etc, etc.
Only those who have been eternally saved IS CAPABLE OF BEING SAVED in the temporal sense... of benefiting from the means of grace.
I hope you begin to see a vast and distinct difference between eternal salvation which is wholly God's work, and the temporal salvation which is dependent upon the responses of those who HAVE BBEN SAVED to the means of grace that they may be saved here and now.
Eternal salvation is purely and solely by the regenerating work of God unto eternal life. Gospel ministry is to inform and announce the good news of that eternal salvation which God Himself has purposed, Christ Himself has accomplished and the Holy Spirit Himself has applied to the elect individually at God's approved and appointed time. The gospel ministry is UTTER foolishness to all except those to whom the eternal salvation has been applied by the Holy Spirit.
Gee== What was Peter's problem (in fact the Jewish Christians as well)? Acts 11:1-2. Their problem is one of race and culture. The Jews have always look upon themselves as a special people of God, the Gentiles are 'dogs'. They have always believed that if the Gentile should enjoy God's blessing, they should be converted to "Jews" first, that is, be circumcised and embrace their Jewish traditions. That is why eventually the Council at Jerusalem wrote the letter to clarify this (Acts 15:24) Through the vision given to Peter at Acts 10, he was fully convinced that whoever God will save, nobody must reject just because they are not Jews. In Acts 10:34-35, shows that Peter was fully convinced about this matter when he heard that God had also prepared Cornelius for this great event, that is God's saving mercy will dawn on the Gentiles by His grace and nothing else. So in these two verses, it shows that Peter realize that what God is able to save in one race, He is able to do the same in another race. What is acceptable to God? It is the fear of God and the works of righteousness.
## Intimately connected with the prejudice of race and culture is the matter of salvation.
Up to this point, Peter the Jew had always thought that salvation is confined and limited to those who have the oracles of God, i.e. the Jewish nation. His mindset is very much like the mindset of many reformed people... eternal salvation is IMPOSSIBLE WITH THOSE, who by God's providence, have never had the gospel message brought to them. His mindset is very much like the mindset of the many reformed people who think that God is PARTIAL in that eternal salvation is only possible with those who have the privilege of having the gospel communicated to them.
What was revealed to Peter is that God is IMPARTIAL in His acceptance of sinners... through His own sovereign work of regeneration and bestowing upon them eternal life. And this eternal life birthed in them WITHOUT the hearing of the gospel manifests itself in the fear of God and the works of righteousness. The GROUND of God accepting them is His own free and gracious act of regenerating them and bestowing them eternal life.
So there ARE persons in every nation that ARE saved by God with eternal salvation... EVEN THOUGH they ARE still in ignorance and darkness about many things. The preaching of the gospel and the ministry of the word is DESIGNED AND ORDAINED to bring them out of darkness and ignorance... to instruct them in sound doctrine, to reproof them, to correct them, to train them in all righteousness.
'GO AND MAKE DISCIPLES.....' How often we forget to ask the question, a very basic question, 'Just who do we hope to make disciples out of'? Do we hope to make disciples out of those who God the Spirit has NOT regenerated, still dead in sins and trespasses? I surely hope not. I firmly believe disciples can only be made out of those whom God the Spirit HAS ALREADY regenerated.
Gee: "Is Peter saying that Cornelius is saved at this point before he preaches the gospel to him? There is no evidence to indicate that. 10:4, merely indicates what kind of man Cornelius was. He was sincere and religious. And God knows that. Are all God-fearers saved people? There is nothing to indicate that. In fact, the evidences indicate otherwise, look at Acts 13:16, 26. Paul warned them (the Jews and the God fearers) not to despise the glad tidings (13:40-41) that was sent to them (13:26, the word of this salvation has been sent; 13:32, we declare to you glad tidings...) What is this glad tidings about? It is about the forgiveness of sin, v38; it is about 'by Him everyone who believes is justified......,' v39. Obviously, their sins need to be forgiven, they are not yet justified before God unless they believe. They need to hear the gospel and believe in order to be saved, that is, have their sin forgiven and be justified before God. Was Cornelius an exception to this? Again, there is nothing to indicate that. In fact he needs to hear the words by which he and all his household will be saved. (Acts 11:14). He need to believe in Christ in order to receive the remission of sins (Acts 10:43).
## There are so many issues involved in what you have written above.
- There is the issue of eternal salvation by the regenerating work of the eternal Spirit, and the temporal salvation which comes through the gospel ministry by men. Only those eternally saved by the DIVINE ACTS of God can benefits from the gospel blessings here and now ministered by and through God's appointed means. If you understand this distinction, perfects answers are readily available for all your rhetorical questions above.
- There is the issue of various phases of forgiveness: legal/objective forgiveness when all our sins were imputed to Christ when He died on the cross. There is also the vital forgiveness when the Holy Spirit apply personally that legal and objective forgiveness to us by His work of regeneration. Through the Spirit's work of regeneration, an elect is personally and vitally forgiven and justified. The purpose of the gospel is to announce to such a person of the forgiveness of sins that HAS taken place by divine grace.
- GOOD NEWS is NEWS of WHAT HAS HAPPENED BY GOD'S GRACE!!! GOOD NEWS is not what will happen if the hearers will do something!!!!!
- When a regenerated person hears the gospel, he is brought to a experiential knowledge and subjective enjoyment of the forgiveness of sin that HAS TAKEN place by God's grace.
- You are speaking about forgiveness in the last sense... and you are correct that the gospel message is needed to bring about this experimental knowledge and subject experience of the forgiveness of sin that HAS TAKEN place by God's grace.
The gospel message HAS NOT, DOES NOT, WILL NOT bring about forgiveness of sins. It announces the forgiveness of sins that has already taken place... and those regenerated elect who do hear such glad tidings WILL have experimental knowledge and subjective enjoyment of the forgiveness of sins in Christ.
-There is the issue of the different phases of justification: forensic/legal justification by the righteousness of Christ at the cross, the vital justification when the Holy Spirit apply that justification at our regeneration, and the experiential justification which is by faith in Jesus Christ. You are speaking of justification in the third sense.
- God the Son secured the right to eternal life for all the elect. God the Father imputed that right to eternal life to all the elect. The Spirit bestows that actual eternal life to each elect at God's appointed and approved time. Personal faith that follows EVIDENCES all the former actions of the Triune God.
- IT IS MOST UNFORTUNATE that the word 'justify' is not rightly understood in its various and different context. In light of what God has done, faith in Christ justifies in that sense that it VINDICATES that the believing person is indeed redeemed, justified and regenerated by the divine grace.
- By my faith in Jesus Christ, my faith justifies (evidentially) me that I am indeed am elect child of God, redeemed by Christ, justified (legally and forensically) by God on Christ righteousness imputed to me, regenerated by the Holy Spirit of God... born with eternal life... which enable me to repent and believe when the gospel is communicated to me. What the gospel message declares to me is ALREADY true of me because of the work of grace ALREADY begun in me, therefore I believe the gospel.
Gee: "Is there any evidence in the Scripture to indicate that the Gospel is necessary for temporal salvation and not for eternal salvation? Is there such a thing as temporal salvation (this is new to me)?"
## Any evidence? I believe the whole Scriptures is written upon that foundation. The revelation of God is chiefly intended for those whom He has chosen from before the foundation of the world, and the same for whom Christ died, and whom the Holy Spirit will regenerate at God's approved and appointed time. The gospel message which announces the great work of salvation God has accomplished is GOOD NEWS ONLY to such, and no one else. May be, this is simpler: spiritual food is only intended for, and will, benefit those ALREADY divinely born with spiritual life. Even so, physical food is only intended for, and will, benefit those ALREADY humanly born with physical life.
Is there such a thing as temporal salvation (this is new to me)? you asked. I AM SO glad you ask. I believe this is really where the chief obstacle lies - this thing about temporal salvation. Let me give another try at explaining. I grapple with this matter myself for a long time. I asked all the same questions you are asking... because I was also in your present position... seeing things in a limited and narrow scope. That is why I said that salvation is a multi-faceted jewel. I mentioned about the article which answered and untangled many knots I was wrestling with. I recommend that you give it another careful reading... some have rejected it out of hand to their own poverty.
Let me use an illustration. Now, all the good things we shower upon our children (from the day they were conceived with that immortal soul) are all of temporal value only... providing them nurture and comforts and assurance for the time here and now. It has no eternal significance. All the good things of life shower upon them enhance the temporal well being of the life (immortal in nature) already conceived. Conversely, all the deprivation of the good things of life adverse affect the temporal well being of the life already conceived. The abundance or the deprivation of temporal blessing does not affect in anyway the immortal nature of the the live already conceived. Remember the good things of life can only be enjoyed by the life that already exist. The good things of life - say for example... nappies, milk, warm clothes, etc - are not needed for the begetting of that immortal life... but these good things will nurture, comfort and enhance that immortal life in time, here and now (i.e. temporal) before it enters into the eternal realm.
EVEN SO, in the spiritual realm. When by the sovereign grace of God, the Holy Spirit regenerates and beget eternal life in an elect, that elect is already eternally saved... in the absolute sense of the word, in that such a person is destined for eternal glory. (Please consider Romans 8:29-30 again, without man's addition please.)
However it is God's good purpose that such as are regenerated with eternal life and bestowed eternal salvation and destined for eternal glory should be nourished, nurtured, comforted and assured as they journey through this perverse and wicked world. The church is commissioned to preach the gospel of eternal salvation by grace to the world... because God's regenerated elect are among sinners in every nation of the world. The gospel blessings (like the good material things of life) is relevant ONLY to those who have life to profit from it. Disciples can only be made out of those whom the God had chose, Christ has redeemed and justified, and the Spirit has regenerated. To be taught to obey all that the Lord has commanded bring untold temporal salvation to those who are already eternally saved when they are regenerated with eternal life.
Gee: "How do you explain the following two verses: i. Jn 3:36, He who believes in the Son has everlasting life, and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him. ii.] James 1:18, Of his own will He brought us forth by the word of truth.......
## The answer is quite simple if you have understood in any measure what I have said above.
i. John 3:36. There are several things here you may wish to note.
- You may still continue to hold to an indefensible position that everlasting life is the result, the consequence, the effect of believing. You do agree that regeneration must precede faith. You may still disagree that eternal life is the product of divine birth by the eternal Spirit of God. That's ok with me.
- The text plainly say that he who believes in the Son has everlasting life... possesses life as a present reality, not as a future potentiality. He who believes SHOWS, EVIDENCES, DEMONSTRATES, JUSTIFIES that he POSSESSES eternal life, life which is spiritual and everlasting.
- One who hears and does not believe shows that he DOES NOT POSSESS eternal life, therefore shall not see life, with the wrath of God abiding on him.
- The text applies ONLY to those who have had the gospel preached to them but continues unbelieving and unrepentant. I ask you a simple question, I don't know whether you have ever asked, 'Does the BIBLE ever label a person to whom the gospel message had never been communicated as one who is UN-believing and UN-repentant?'
ii. James 1:18. There is just one very major point here.
- You need to make a very clear distinction between regeneration which is entirely MONERGISTIC, without any human agency; and conversion which is always SYNERGISTIC, the regenerated elect's response to the gospel means through the agency of man.
Gee: "All these verses (in fact many more) indicate that believing the truth (the gospel) is essential to receive eternal life, otherwise God's wrath is still upon us."
All these verses DECLARES that believing the truth evidences POSSESSION of eternal life. All those verses are INDICATIVE STATEMENTS OF FACT... not subjunctive statement of potentiality.
I am puzzled, very honestly puzzled, that one the one hand, you are very sure that regeneration must precedes believing. Why regeneration must precedes believing I wonder? Why is it impossible to believe without regeneration. On the other hand, you believe that believing is necessary to obtain eternal life.
I would to God that you can sit down and reconcile these two beliefs. You have given your answer - that regeneration enables a person to believe so that he may obtain eternal life. If you do believe that, I fear that you believe in a 'regeneration' of man's imagination, VOID of all the significance vested with it by the Scriptures.
Gee: This is against what you believe, that is, a person can be regenerated and may not have faith because he has not heard the gospel, and yet has everlasting life! But Jn 3:36, says a person who does not believe has no everlasting life, shall not see life, and God's wrath is still upon him.
## John 3:36 deals with those who do hear but reject the gospel. Often we think this is the only aspect of salvation the Scriptures speaks of. I do agree that it is the MAIN aspect addressed, but not the ONLY aspect. Half the wondrous story is not told, the lesser known half.
The Scriptures also speaks of God's elect in every nation whom He regenerated and bestowed eternal life, which then manifest itself in the fear of God and work of righteousness, even in the absence of the gospel. You insist that God is partial - bestowing eternal life/salvation ONLY to those who do hear and believe the gospel, who do have the gospel brought to them. The Scriptures declare that God is impartial... and accepts sinners PURELY on the basis of His sovereign work of regeneration APART from gospel message. The GC is to reach out to such with the glorious gospel... the gospel preaching is necessary... not that sinners dead in sins and trespasses may secure eternal life by it, but that those ALREADY bestowed with eternal life may have joy, comfort, assurance of hope, etc... before they are glorified.
Your present restricted view does not encompass the full scope of God's redemptive purpose. You believe that there is NO elect among all those multitudes of the world in those countless generations who did not hear the gospel, the gospel was never brought to them! I fear that that view does not square with ALL the fact of Scriptures. I have abandoned it.
A simple question: for whom are the nappies, milk, warm clothes, etc? For whom is the glorious gospel message - pure milk and meat - for? Is it a means to bring eternal life... or it is for the nourishment of those who have eternal life?
I have rambled on for too long. Please, consider the things I have said, and see whether you understand. I don't expect you to agree, unless God give you further light. All I seek is understanding, so that one day when I am gone, I trust you are able to represent me correctly to those who have slandered me in public and in private.
Thank you for your patience. I have written enough. I will burden you no more.
your brother in Christ,
sing
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Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 12:17:24 +0800
Dear Gee,
A few more questions to stimulate thinking and learning:
Acts 11:14 "... who will tell you words by which you and all your household will be saved. ----- Peter must preach the words of God so that Cornelius and his household will be saved.
We have noted some descriptions of Cornelius before he ever heard the gospel.
The Scriptures described Cornelius in this manner:
- He is a devout man... Acts 10:2
- He is one who feared God with all his household... Acts 10:2
- He gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always... Acts 10:2
- Whose prayers and alms have come up for a memorial before God..." Acts 10:4
- He was ready to hear all the things commanded by God... "Now therefore, we are all present before God, to hear all the things commanded you by God.² Acts 10:33.
- Of whom God said, "What God has cleansed you must not call common" - and this repeated three times.
- Of whom the angel said, "your prayer has been heard, and your alms are remembered in the sight of God."
I highlight all the above to ask you to consider some simple related questions.
Was Cornelius 'saved' in any way before he ever heard the gospel?
Can a non 'saved' man behaves like Cornelius had been?
In what sense is the preaching of the gospel necessary for a person to be saved - to be saved in what sense?
Acts 10:34-35: "Then Peter opened his mouth and said: "In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him."
When Peter was inspired to utter those momentous words, what glorious truths dawned upon him?
- In what sense God shows no partiality?
- On what basis does God accept people? On the basis of their having the privilege to hear the gospel? Or on the basis of the fear of God and the works of righteousness - the EVIDENCE of His grace of sovereign work of regeneration?
- These 'whoever fears God and works righteousness' found in every nation who are nonetheless accepted by God - have they heard the gospel?
- What is the explanation that there are men like Cornelius in every nation who fear (simple present tense) and work righteousness (simple present tense) BUT who have not had the gospel brought to them?
-- Can you now solemnly declare with Peter, 'IN TRUTH I perceive that...'?
Brother Gee, I am not interrogating you. I am only asking to stimulate the study of Scriptures. That is my manner of studying Scriptures... asking questions.
Even a man like Apollos needed to be instructed more accurately in the Scriptures. "Now a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man and mighty in the Scriptures, came to Ephesus. This man had been instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, he spoke and taught accurately the things of the Lord though he knew only the baptism of John. So he began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Aquila and Priscilla heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately." Acts 18:24-26.
We are probably a 1000 miles behind Apollos... and a long way to go. Glad to have your company still... others have part company in studying. They have arrived :-)
Take all the time you need to ponder what I have mused.
seeking and learning,
brother sing
