November 6, 2010
https://web.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/pfbid031QcomdjJr9SPqNZpV9eCXWpN2D6J8o16JxYmzsnye691oBNru3HDQgoHcqeL77D7l
"And
He gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some,
pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the
ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity
of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto
the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ..." Eph 4:11-13.
Any
hint on gospel regeneration?
------------
47
comments
Sing
F Lau
Christ
did say why He gave these teaching offices. The first three are extraordinary
for the apostolic time. The only office normative for the NT church is that of
pastors and teachers. They are to do the work of the evangelists too. 2Ti 4:5
"But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an
evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry."
So,
for what exact purpose did Christ give these men?
It
is for the perfecting of the saints.
Saints
are God's own production - saints are those elect whom God has called out of
their native state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation in Jesus
Christ by His own free and sovereign will. They have been separated from sin
and death unto grace and salvation in Christ.
These
saints need the gospel ministry to perfect them, i.e. to nurture those who are
spiritual babes to spiritual maturity.
Where
is the presumptuous idea of gospel regeneration... of preaching the gospel to
assist God in producing His children?
Why is the lie of gospel regeneration so addictive and pernicious?
Charles
Page
Sing,
I like this discussion! I have a special interest.
Sing
F Lau
Charles,
tell us about your special interest in the passage!
Charles
Page
@Sing,
I don't think the prophetic word is just for apostolic times. Perhaps I may
concede that the apostolic word or office has ceased yet not really ceased but
may continue through the succession of pastors/teachers. Apostles are primary and
foundational (though Prophets played a role in the foundation) and the
continuity of the perfect building of the body of elect saints till the end.
Charles
Page
I
am a non-cessationist and I am sure that has a bearing on my belief.
Sing
F Lau
@Charles,
thanks for raising the issue.
Consider
these:
1.
1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another
discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the
interpretation of tongues:
Please
note that the gift of prophecy belonged to this group of unique gifts for the
apostolic church!
2.
1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall
fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge,
it shall vanish away.
Prophecies
shall fail. Paul wrote in the future, but it is ALREADY PAST!
3.
NT gives us the qualification for ONE teaching office only: that of pastor-teacher, therefore the ONLY teaching office NORMATIVE for the NT.
There is NO overlap of office... they are distinct and separate, even though there is overlap of functions.
Sing
F Lau
@Charles,
tell us what you believe has ceased, and what still continue. Thanks.
Charles
Page
Sing,
I am an experiencialist and try not to venture beyond my experiences but on
this, I dare to tread (that is why I blocked Richie from this dialogue) I was
raised a Pentecostal and was a Pentecostal pastor for 25 years. I left that but
still have very devoted Pentecostal parents and a very spiritual mother. My
Pentecostal roots run deep and I am grateful for my heritage of folks with an
experiential knowledge of the Holy Spirit.
I
am not a trained scholar so I hope I follow your understanding correctly. I
have heard the cessationist arguments all my life and have been defensive as a
Pentecostal to defend non-cessationism. I never claimed to be a "later day
movement" " third wave" nor "charismatic" nor
"full gospel" nor did I ever "move in the gifts" I was a
Pentecostal pastor/teacher who in doctrinal weakness personally neglected
evangelism. I did believe that the gifts of the Spirit, I Cor 12-14 were for
the edification of the body and believed that my function was to oversee that
operation and ensure that the Bible was the basis of operation. Never did I
believe that any teaching came via the gifts of the Spirit nor did i believe
any gifts carried any weight toward directing the affairs of the preaching/
teaching office. They were for the comfort, edification and exhortation of the
body and not for discipline nor correction.
I am not emphatically able to say that any office has ceased but as I see it the "office" of apostleship does not exist (though perhaps we are in a time when we need one due to the extensive destruction that exegetical interpretations have done to the English speaking nations)
Sing
F Lau
You
don't have to be a trained scholar. All you need to do is to be a humble
student at the feet of Christ.
There
is no need to block anyone from expressing their thought... because each
thought should drive us closer to the Scriptures.
Experience
has its proper place. But I have learned to say with Apostle Peter the
distinction between experience and the inspired Scriptures...
19
¶ We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take
heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the
day star arise in your hearts:
So,
with great respect, I say to you, despite all your precious experiences,
"We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye
take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn,
and the day star arise in your hearts..."
The function of the Apostles was to deliver to the Church everything that Christ had commanded them. Their specific job was done... the office ceased.
Ed
Elliott
Sing,
if prophecies and tongues, have ceased as you claim then knowledge must have
ceased as well b/c it is listed as "vanishing" as well. Since we know
that Knowledge hasn't ceased it is possible the others haven't stopped either.
Cessationists
argue that the moment the last Apostle died, or when the final sentence of the
last book of the Bible had been written, all miracles including speaking in
tongues ceased.
Are
they correct? Let's first establish the date that miracles supposedly ceased.
The Apostle Paul died somewhere between 64 AD and 69 AD, and the last Apostle,
the Apostle John, died in 110 AD. So let's compare the cut-off date, the year
of the last Apostle's death, with the timeline of events in the Early Church:
Justin Martyr (100 AD--165 AD) was only 10 years old when the Apostle John died.
He was an early Christian apologist. His works are the earliest Christian
apologies, of substantial size, to survive today.
Forty
years after the Apostle John's death, he wrote in 150 AD:
"For
the prophetical gifts remain with us, even to this present time."
(Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter 82).
And,
"Now, it is possible to see amongst us women and men who possess gifts of
the Spirit of God;" Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter 88.
It
is simply beyond dispute that the prophetic gifts continued until 150 AD.--40
years after the last Apostle died.
Justin
Martyr was no heretic. His writings are still accepted to this day by all
theologians I know of, as sound teachings.
Irenaeus
(c.130-202 AD) was born 20 years after the last Apostle died. He was bishop of
Lugdunum in Gaul, which is now Lyon, France. His writings were formative in the
early development of Christian theology. Like Justin Martyr, he was an early
Christian apologist. His writings carry significant weight because he was a
disciple of Polycarp, who had been a disciple of the Apostle John.
Irenaeus
writes of believers in his day:
"Wherefore,
also, those who are in truth His disciples, receiving grace from Him, do in His
name perform [miracles], so as to promote the welfare of other men, according
to the gift which each one has received from Him. For some do certainly and
truly drive out devils, so that those who have thus been cleansed from evil
spirits frequently both believe [in Christ] and join themselves to the Church.
Others have foreknowledge of things to come: they see visions, and utter
prophetic expressions. Others still, heal the sick by laying their hands upon
them, and they are made whole. Yea, moreover, as I have said, the dead even
have been raised up, and remained among us for many years. And what shall I
more say? It is not possible to name the number of gifts which the Church,
[scattered] throughout the whole world, has received from God, in the name of
Jesus Christ," Irenaeus Against Heresies, Book II, Chapter 32, section 4.
Additionally, Irenaeus writes:
"We
speak wisdom among them that are perfect, terming those persons
"perfect" who have received the Spirit of God, and who through the
Spirit of God do speak in all languages, as he used Himself also to speak. In
like manner we do also hear many brethren in the Church, who possess prophetic
gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to
light for the general benefit the hidden things of men, and declare the
mysteries of God," --Irenaeus Against Heresies, Book V. Chapter 6. section
1.
The
writings of Irenaeus carry significant weight, especially concerning spiritual
gifts considering:
Irenaeus
had learned directly from Polycarp who had sat under the instruction of the
Apostle John.
John
had travelled with Christ and had spoken in tongues at Pentecost.
Surely
the Apostle John knew genuine prophecy and genuine speaking in tongues when he
experienced them and heard them in others. It is only reasonable to assume that
John passed clear teachings on to Polycarp, who in turn, passed such teachings
and understandings on to Irenaeus. Had John given any warning that the gifts
would cease upon his death, both Polycarp and Iraneaus would have known of it.
Irenaeus
testifies, in writings that exist to this day, that "prophetic
expressions" and believers "who through the Spirit speak all kinds of
languages" were so common and widespread in his life (130 - 202 AD) that
"...it is not possible to name the number of gifts..."
His
comments were written probably 80 to 90 years after the last Apostle died.
If these gifts ceased 90 years previously, then to what was Irenaeus referring?
Charles
Page
@Sing,
I am an experientialist, but a true Pentecostal experience is not truth based
on experience (as most anti-pentecostalists assume) but a truth based on Word
and Spirit. My antithesis to you would be that you are a mere "humble
student at the feet of Christ" with an emphasis on your humility in exegetical
abilities.
My
"sure word of prophecy" is I have the author of the sacred scriptures
and have no want for any other to teach me. I am not humbled by my experience
but by His presence! A true Pentecostal is not experience-oriented but Spirit-oriented a humble servant sitting at Christ's feet today is experience-oriented dependant on his own and others' tested experiences.
Hopefully, I am not antithetical here to the point of alienation!
Jesus left this earth so that we would not sit at His feet but that we would be taught by the Spirit.
Sing
F Lau
Charles@
"Hopefully I am not antithetical here to the point of alienation! "
I
burst out laughing when I read this line!
I will nominate you to be an Apostle if you care to be one. We really need one in our perilous time... to give us an infallible interpretation of the Scriptures.
Sing
F Lau
Elliott@
"if prophecies and tongues, have ceased as you claim then knowledge must
have ceased as well b/c it is listed as "vanishing" as well. Since we
know that Knowledge hasn't ceased it is possible the others haven't stopped
either."
-------
I
expected that question every time this issue is discussed.
You
have written so much! I did not read beyond the first paragraph. That first
paragraph needs to be dealt with first so that there is common ground to carry
on sensible discussion.
Can
you please tell us what is the 'knowledge' in context?
In
the way you understand it, will 'knowledge' ever vanish away? If yes, when?
1Co
13:8 "Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall
fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge,
it shall vanish away."
What
knowledge is Paul speaking about?
Will it ever vanish away? If yes, when?
Adam
Wells
Bro
Sing - You mentioned in a previous post to give a simple test... "This is
a test... get a new believer who has never heard ..." Why not apply the
same test to the cessationist controversy? Would any new believer truly read
the New Testament and walk away saying that the gifts of the Spirit ended
with the death of the apostles? Is your test accurate then or should it only be
applied to escatology?
Sing
F Lau
Who
is saying the gifts of the Spirit ended with the apostles?
Why
are you so woolly <lol>
Just
what are you talking about? By 'the gifts of the Spirit', what do you mean - do
you mean those specific things mentioned in this passage?
1Co
13:8 "Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall
fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge,
it shall vanish away."
So,
be a bit more precise please... profitable discussion requires that.
All
have to agree that the passage plainly declares that these things shall
'fail... cease... vanish away' at some point, 'shall' is with respect to Paul's
time. Any who don't agree that those things mentioned shall 'fail... cease...
vanish away' at some point after Paul wrote his epistle, can leave the room.
Okay,
so apply that test here... now that the issue is very clear.
If
any wish to discuss when those things pass away after Paul wrote that epistle,
then please remain, and we shall discuss.
I
have no ready-made answers. If you have, let us hear from you. Have they
'failed... ceased... vanished away'? If yes, when?
If
not, then when shall they?
Or
shall these ever pass away?
Pick
your choice, and let us hear from you.
And please keep to the subject...
Charles
Page
They
will cease when we see through a clear glass and understand in whole not in parts.
That did not happen with the canonization of scripture. It is yet to happen
when we have no need for gifts and we all speak one language and we are all
fuzzy love balls not needing any interpretations. (as well as translators)
Adam
Wells
I
must conclude that those things that Paul was referring to will pass away, have
not yet passed away... for as Charles pointed out, we still only know in part.
Sing
F Lau
Adam,
this is a very interesting study... I hope you will stay on until I CHASE you
out... which I won't!
Very
well then... tell us what is the knowledge in that verse! I don't want to
assume to know.
Is
the knowledge in that verse ABOUT believers' CAPACITY TO KNOW... like you have
expressed... "we still only know in part" - is that what Apostle Paul
meant? Could it be the SOURCE of their knowledge (hint.. hint.. hint...!)
Apostle
Paul said,
"8 ¶ Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail;
whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it
shall vanish away.
9
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be
done away.
11
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a
child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
Why
did apostle Paul say that at that point in time they know in part... and
prophesy in part?
He
did say that 'knowing in part and prophesying in part will end... i.e. when
that which is perfect IS COME... THEN that which is in part (knowing, and
prophesying in part) shall be done away with.
The question then is: what is that thing which is perfect?
Has
it come? Yes, when? No, when?
Apostle
Paul spoke of becoming a man. Did he ever become a man with regard to the
issue of 'knowing in part and prophesying in part? Did the NT church ever
become a man with respect to the same subject? Or is the NT church still a
child with respect to the subject under consideration? These are weighty
questions, you would agree!
Some
questions for your kind consideration, as we study this subject.
I
give you full liberty to raise any question related to the topic... we will
discuss and study with the open Bible... this will benefit all who want to
learn the truth.
We will keep our experience in our respective wardrobe <lol>
Sing
F Lau
Page@
"they will cease when we see thru a clear glass and understand in whole
not in parts. That did not happen with the canonization of scripture."
========
Charles,
supposing you are only able to know in part now, and sometime in the future you
will know in whole.
Now,
please tell me what is that which you WILL know and understand in whole? Please
tell us what that is.
I
know, your whole idea revolves around your capacity and ability to know and
understand in part and in whole.
When
you are glorified, will you be able to know in whole like God? Is that what you
mean by 'understand in whole not in parts'?
Do
you know that something MOST AMAZING happened when the Scriptures were fully
given? Can you tell us what happened?
With
the complete revelation of God's word, something astounding happened - what is
it?
When
you have only part of the Scriptures, how much can be known and understood? How
much can be prophesied?
If I forget to answer some of my own questions, and if you want to know the answers, please goad me.
Charles
Page
1)
that which is perfect. "in heaven" - a state of absolute
perfection"
2)
I shall know even as I am known. I will not know in whole like God but will
know myself as God knows me. Something none of us experience in part.
3)
No I don't know what you know about something MOST AMAZING that happened when the
Scriptures were fully given? I know the Inspirator who knows in whole but
reveals in parts to me. What is MOST AMAZING is the presence of the inspirator
who indwells me and guides me to the end till I reach perfection.
4)
I believe we have the whole (completed) of scripture but we see it through opaque
glass, dimly, darkly. Scripture is complete but our interpretation is
imperfect.
Adam
Wells
Sing
- "Do you know that something MOST AMAZING happened when the Scriptures
were fully given? Can you tell us what happened?
With
the complete revelation of God's word, something astounding happened - what is
it?"
Please do explain, as I am curious as to how you connect this passage to the canonization or completion of scripture.
Sing
F Lau
Charles,
please peruse this short bible study note on the passage under consideration. I
have just uploaded it here:
https://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2010/11/what-is-that-which-is-perfect-1cor-138.html It
was done years ago, 1996.
I welcome any constructive objections... these will only help each one of us to study the Scriptures.
Charles
Page
It
helps me to understand your reason for such a study. What is your connection to
the Charismatic/pentecostal movement? Have you had bad encounters with them? Is
it a matter of extremes you have personally observed?
Sing
F Lau
I
lived in a time when the charismatic and pentecostal movement was sweeping over
this nation, splitting up churches in so many places. So the storm was raging
around us, I told the 3-year-old church then that we had better study through
the Scriptures on the subject, and be settled in our own mind.
My
only personal encounter was when I was visiting a friend in another city while
on college vacation... he brought me along to his church... and it was weird as
well as wild, and that was in the year 1987, in Geelong, Australia. And that
was a typical Pentecostal church then.
As I said, I would rather leave my experiences in the wardrobe.
Sing
F Lau
Does
anyone marvel at those apostolic preachers who were so knowledgeable concerning
the gospel of Jesus Christ, and preaching it powerfully EVEN THOUGH they only
had the OT Scriptures with them?
How
did they understand the OT so well WITHOUT the light of the NT?
How
does that 'knowledge' mentioned in 1Cor 13:8 jive in with that unique
phenomenon?
1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
Charles
Page
They
were well versed in the OT - however, they had the Holy Spirit as the teacher to
guide them into proper understanding.
Sing
F Lau
We
are absolutely foreign to the idea of having the OT as the only available
Scriptures. We are so used to having the complete Scriptures, with the NT
shedding dazzling light upon the OT... that we don't appreciate the situation
when there were only OT Scriptures.
Supposing
we were living in the days of the Apostles, how much would we be able to
understand the OT and preach Christ out of it? But the Apostles were able to do
that with amazing ease!
How
did they understand the OT so well WITHOUT the light of the NT?
They
were given the special gift of 'knowledge' mentioned in 1Cor 13:8.
That
'special knowledge' has ceased! Why? The way to understand the OT has been
permanently inscripturated - NT Scriptures!
Now
it is:
"2Ti
2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be
ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."
Ed
Elliott
Sing,
you are the one making the claim that Tongues and prophecies and done away
with. I just pointed out that the passage mentioned "knowledge" and I
don't believe it is the gift of knowledge or wisdom. To suggest that these
gifts were going to cease makes no sense b/c in the 14th chapter Paul begins to
explain their function and purpose. Now why would God give such detailed
instruction for something that wasn't going to continue? If just the apostles
operated in these gifts why write the church and tell them how to function and
to desire them? Why would Paul say, "be eager to prophesy, and do not
forbid speaking in tongues." if these gifts were to cease? Look how much
instruction is given on something that some believe would stop even b/4 the New
Testament was compiled.
Sing
F Lau
Elliot,
it is not just the gift of knowledge or wisdom in a general sense. It is the
gift of knowledge in the revelatory sense... those three gifts were all
revelatory gifts... special ability to know the truth of the gospel with the NT
Scriptures.
"To
suggest that these gifts were going to cease makes no sense..."
It
makes no sense ONLY because you fail to see that it makes plenty of sense
because these gifts were STILL in operation when Apostle Paul wrote that
epistle. Since they were in operation, it was necessary that he gave the
instructions on the exercise and purpose of those gifts. Those good gifts were
capable of being abused by some of God's children!
But
you conclude that since he gave instruction on the exercise and purpose of
those gifts, they, therefore, will continue to the end of the gospel age!
You
said, "If just the apostles operated in these gifts why write the church
and tell them how to function and to desire them?"
Whoever
claims that those gifts were restricted to the apostles only?????????????????
When they are described as apostolic gifts, it is meant that they were gifts
restricted to the apostolic time. With the passing away of the apostles, and
divine revelation having been completed... those gifts fizzled away... as stated by
Paul.
The difficulty is imagined!
Ed
Elliott
Where
does it say that those gifts are just for the apostolic age? And where are they
described as apostolic gifts? I see no evidence for it and in my first post
that you claim you didn't read I supply historical evidence from respected early
church fathers some trained by the apostles themselves that say those gifts
continued on after the apostles died.
Why wouldn't those gifts continue to the end of the apostolic age? People still need miracles, healing, etc. The early church fathers proved those gifts continued and didn't cease as you suggest.
Sing
F Lau
The
explanation is quite simple why those special gifts went beyond the apostles
for a while... though the inspired Scriptures had all been given through the
apostles, the NT Scriptures were not available to the NT churches for quite a
while... those gifts fizzled away... instead of abiding to the end of the
gospel age.
No
one suggests that the moment the last apostle past away, revelatory gifts
passed away instantaneously with them.
Another
difficulty imagined <lol>.
Miracles, healing, etc... these SIGN gifts are distinct from the three revelatory gifts under consideration. You can start a separate post and we can discuss there.
Ed
Elliott
Sing,
why don't we have any of the early church fathers many whom were trained and
taught by the apostles support the idea that only "gifts" were for a
certain time period? This type of teaching that these gifts were only for the
"apostolic age" didn't happen until more modern times.
Ed
Elliott
So
the NT scriptures tell us how to function in the gifts but when the NT is
complete we don't need the gifts that it teaches we should desire and covet b/c
the NT is complete. That makes no sense at all. You are saying that the bible
is teaching believers to not do what the bible says. So we should not covet
spiritual gifts as the bible says b/c we now have the bible.
Although
in his early years, Augustine believed that all miracles had ceased by the end
of the lives of the apostles, his view was transformed by the compelling
evidence of many well-attested miracles that occurred during a powerful revival
that occurred throughout the churches of North Africa that were under his
supervision. In the last section of his epic work The City of God, Augustine
wrote about numerous miracles that he had personally witnessed and
investigated, including remarkable miraculous healings involving breast cancer,
paralysis, blindness, and even people who were resurrected from the dead.
Have you ever wondered why the Book of Acts has no ending? Is it b/c it is still being written by the church today?
Sing
F Lau
What
need was there for those early church fathers to say those revelatory gifts
were only for a certain time... when such a fact was so obvious to all...
those revelatory gifts were fast fizzling away, and eventually failed, ceased,
and vanished away???????
The
teaching that those revelatory gifts were only for the apostolic age had to
be stated in modern times because of the modern phenomenon where claims of
apostleship, special prophecies and knowledge, and tongues are claimed by all
sorts of charlatans and religious quacks!
The 'trinitarian' truth did not need to be formulated in fire until such perverse men arose to attack that point of truth.
Ed
Elliott
The
fact is those gifts were still in operation long after the apostles went home
to glory. A close study of church history one can see that speaking in tongues
never ceased.
Charles
Page
Sing,
we will probably agree to disagree to a certain extent but you have inspired me
with a new dimension. Brother, you are an inspired teacher and your congregation
is blessed to have you as their pastor.
I look forward to much more dialogue with you on this subject.
Sing
F Lau
Elliot@ So
the NT scriptures tell us how to function in the gifts but when the NT is
complete we don't need the gifts that it teaches we should desire and covet b/c
the NT is complete. That makes no sense at all. You are saying that the bible
is teaching believers to not do what the bible says. So we should not covet
spiritual gifts as the bible says b/c we now have the bible...
=======
There
is much-muddled reasoning here because context is ignored. Those gifts were in
operation in the infant churches... and they were abused, therefore calling
forth the needed instructions on the purpose and orderly manifestations of
those revelatory gifts.
Those
revelatory gifts (prophecies, knowledge and tongues) shall fail, cease, and
vanish away. But while still present and operating in the infant churches, the
instruction regarding them was needed.
Those
revelatory gifts (prophecies, knowledge and tongues) shall fail, cease, and
vanish away. This is in sharp contrast to what shall ABIDE...
1Cor
13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of
these is charity.
And
these are the BEST GIFTS spoken of in
1Cor
12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more
excellent way.
The
best gifts are the gifts the ENDURE and ABIDE, throughout the gospel age... not
AFTER the gospel age!!!
You
are making Apostle Paul told to tell the Corinthian believers to desire and covet
the showy and impressive gifts that shall fail, cease, and vanish away.
I
say Apostle Paul exhorts them to covet earnestly the best gifts, i.e. faith,
hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
"Charity
never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there
be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish
away."
These gifts ABIDE throughout the gospel age... while revelatory gifts of prophecies, knowledge and tongues lasted a while.
Sing
F Lau
"The
fact is those gifts were still in operation long after the apostles went home
to glory. A close study of church history one can see that speaking in tongues
never ceased."
======
'Speaking
in tongues' of course, never ceased - I witnessed in temples where mediums fall
into trance and speak gibberish... and this is a common phenomenon in many
cultures...
But
the biblical gift of tongues (one singular gift with the plurality of tongues) enabled a man to miraculously speak many languages
that are entirely foreign to him... for him to declare the wonderful work of
God in redemption.
Anything else DOES NOT meet the revelatory gift of tongues!
Ed
Elliott
Could
you please explain why you think that the gifts were "abused"?
Paul
said "grace" was abused but he didn't stop preaching it.
The
best gifts were the gifts needed at that time it is why we are told to desire
the best gifts. If the sick need healing then the gifts of healing would be the
best gifts for that situation etc..
All
gifts should be tempered with love, one could have great faith, miracles etc.
but not love they be making noise. They themselves would not profit from their
use.
Again
I explained that those early church fathers never taught or expected the gifts
to cease and their writings show that they didn't.
For
the sake of argument, I am talking about the biblical use of tongues not some
counterfeit but again for their to be a counterfeit you have to have the real
or their wouldn't be a counterfeit. So to bring up what the pagans do is silly
and an intellectual dodge, pagans preach as well to so does that mean all
preaching today is false of course not but your comparison is just as
ludicrous. Lets keep this discussion on biblical issues not fake or false cultist
activity.
Paul said he prayed in tongues more than you all, the idea that tongues is just languages is not accurate at all and to ignore that their is a private and personal use of tongues in one's prayer life and a public ministerial use is to confuse the issue and not properly divide the word of truth.
Sing
F Lau
Elliot@
'Could you please explain why you think that the gifts were "abused"?
Paul said "grace" was abused but he didn't stop preaching it."
--------
For
gratifying & parading self instead of edifying the church.
"12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may
excel to the edifying of the church.
13
Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may
interpret.
14
For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is
unfruitful."
@ Grace
was abused, and that abuse must be corrected. He didn't stop preaching grace
because he didn't say grace will fail, cease or vanish away!
It
was precisely that those gifts were ABUSED that called forth the needed REBUKE
and instructions.
He didn't stop the exercise of those gifts because they were still in operation. But he did say they shall fail, cease or vanish away!
Sing
F Lau
Elliot@
Paul said he prayed in tongues more than you all, the idea that tongues are just
languages is not accurate at all and to ignore that there is a private and
personal use of tongues in one's prayer life and a public ministerial use is to
confuse the issue and not properly divide the word of truth.
--------
Paul
DIDN'T say he PRAYED in tongues more than them all. He did say HE SPEAK with
tongues more than them all. " 18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more
than ye all:"
There
is a great difference between speaking in tongues and praying in tongues, and there is a difference between praying in tongues in public and in private.
What
constitutes biblical tongues must be determined by the Scriptures alone. All
through 1Cor 12-14, it is taken for granted that TONGUES can be interpreted and
understood. And if you think that tongues are some gibberish incoherent sound,
I won't waste time disputing.
Having
said that, let it be noted that when Apostle Paul spoke of praying in tongues,
he was being SARCASTIC and REBUKING the FOOLISH and VAIN practice. It is weird
that so many folks are SO OBTUSE and slow... they take his statement of rebuke
and sarcasm as a statement of compliment and approval of such practice! Here:
13
Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may
interpret.
(This
rule must be observed, otherwise foolishness and vanity!)
14
For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is
unfruitful.
(If you pray in an unknown tongue... your understanding is unfruitful!!!)
And the mockery here:
9
So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how
shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
(A foolish man speaking into thin air if he does not utter words easy to understand! Ha ha ha!...)
11
Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that
speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.
(A
man who wants to parade himself with his gift, instead of impressing, is seen as
a barbarian... wasting his breath saying things no one understands.
17
For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.
(And
people think Paul is commending them for well doing... but this is a rebuke for
this abuse of the gifts...
Ed
Elliott
Sing, Even
so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual [gifts], seek that ye may excel
to the edifying of the church.
Paul
is presenting the proper motive for going to church. It is to bless others. We
should look forward to church as an opportunity to share what God has given us
with others. Too often people's motive for going to church is to pay a debt to
God or to get blessed personally. Of course, there are times when we need the
help of our brothers and sisters in Christ, but it really is more blessed to
give than to receive (Acts 20:35).
With
this in mind, every member of the body of Christ should be prepared to give of
himself when he goes to church, just as he would expect the minister to be
prepared. It wouldn't be right for the minister to just "show up" and
not have anything to give. Likewise, it's not right for members of the church
to just show up and warm a pew. We should pray and be expectant that the Lord
will use us to show love to someone.
This
was the meaning of what he wrote it had nothing to do with the abuse of the
gifts.
else,
or minister through the gifts, as Paul is presenting here.
Ed
Elliott
Sing,
one must speak to pray or can you pray and not speak. You are splitting hairs
and not looking at the context of the scripture.
Wherefore
let him that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue pray that he may interpret.
Based
on his statement in the previous verse, Paul is encouraging these believers to
put ministry to the body ahead of personal ministry. "He that speaketh in
an unknown tongue edifieth himself, but he that prophesieth edifieth the church
In
context, Paul is speaking about interpreting a message in tongues in the church
assembly, we can also pray and receive interpretation of our tongue in our
private prayer life too.
For
if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is
unfruitful.
1
Cor. 14:14: This is one of the great advantages of speaking in tongues. Our
born-again spirit is perfect (Heb. 10:10,14; 12:23). Our born-again spirit has
the mind of Christ. It has all the power of Christ (Eph. 1:18-20). It is
complete (Col. 2:9-10). Therefore, when we are praying from our spirit, we are
praying with the mind of Christ, using our most holy faith (Jude 20).
Too
often our mind, with all its wrong thinking and unbelief, gets in the way.
Praying in tongues bypasses our mind and allows our spirit to have unhindered
communion with the Father.
What
is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding
also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
1 Cor. 14:15: Four different times in this verse, Paul said "I will."
Once we have received this gift, speaking in tongues and interpreting that
tongue is a decision of the will. Some people have mistakenly thought, "We
do not have control over this gift. We can't speak in tongues when we want. We
can't turn the Holy Spirit on and off." That's not the case. It's not that
we turn the Holy Spirit on and off at our will. He is always "on." We
are the ones who are on and off. Anytime we will to do so, the Holy Spirit will
give us the utterance to speak in tongues and the ability to interpret.
"Praying
with the spirit" and "singing with the spirit" are describing
praying and singing in tongues. That is clear from the context. In the previous
verse, Paul said when we pray in an unknown tongue, our spirit is praying.
Notice also the use of the lowercase "s" in the word spirit. That is
identifying our spirit, not the Holy Spirit.
Paul wouldn't mock or be sarcastic about something so holy and precious to Jesus as His gifts to the church. I really don't know how you come up with something like that it is almost heretical to mock God's gifts like that.
Sing
F Lau
Sing,
one must speak to pray or can you pray and not speak. You are splitting hairs
and not looking at the context of the scripture.
=======
Not
true Elliot.
Though
both activities use spoken words, when you speak, it implies that you are
addressing people. When you pray, you are addressing God... whether in public or in private.
Apostle
Paul was obviously rebuking these Corinthians who were abusing those gifts -
and pointing out the ridiculous situation when the gifts were abused!
So
many think that Paul is approving and commending them!
You
said this: "Too often our mind, with all its wrong thinking and unbelief,
gets in the way. Praying in tongues bypasses our mind and allows our spirit to
have unhindered communion with the Father. "
Apostle
Paul said this: "For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth,
but my understanding is unfruitful."
I
believe that is a statement of REBUKE, not approval and commendation. You take
it as a commendation...
You
take this as Paul's approving praying in an unknown tongue for personal
edification! Do you ever wonder why and how praying in unknown tongues (not
nonsensical gibberish) actually promotes unhindered communion with the Father?
Isn't praying in one's mother tongue the most natural thing to do?
And
didn't Apostle Paul say those gifts were for the EDIFICATION of the church....
and rebuke those who abused them for their own gratification?
You
said, "Paul wouldn't mock or be sarcastic about something so holy and
precious to Jesus was His gifts to the church."
No,
he was not mocking at the gifts. He was mocking their claim that their abuse
is for self-edification. Paul said that the idea was just nonsense... and mock
at such an idea.
People
say, 'self-edification'.
Paul
said, 'Unfruitful... speaking into the air... barbarian...'!
They are surely on two different wavelengths!
