The Ministry of Congregational Singing

Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs,
singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord.

 

The Ministry of Congregational Singing

Eph 5: 18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

1. The Prerequisites for this Spiritual Work

a.  “… but be filled with the Spirit”:
- this will enable us to perform this spiritual work well

b.  “…let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom”:
- this will enable us to sing with grace in our hearts to the Lord with understanding

2. The Nature of this Spiritual Work
a. “… of making melody in our heart to the Lord”

b. “… singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord”

c. Singing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs is chiefly making melody in our hearts to the Lord and singing with grace in our hearts to the Lord
- It’s a service unto the Lord, a spiritual service to the Lord… so, sing spiritually, not just formally, mechanically, outward… without the mind and heart engaged in singing!
- The Lord seeks those who will worship Him in spirit and in truth.

3. Congregational singing is ministering to one another

a. We are not only making melody in our heart to the Lord but also speaking to ourselves…
- it is ALSO prophesying/preaching/proclaiming the truth being sung…
- it is ALSO teaching one another… through the truths being sung…
- it is ALSO admonishing one another… through the truths being sung…
- when we sing in this manner, we are ministering to one another.
- You want a ministry in the church? Sing the truth of God well, preach from the pews

b. The appointed means of speaking to one another, and teaching and admonishing one another:
- psalms, hymns and spiritual songs… all these are means of conveying God’s truth through songs.
- Hymns properly sung is like preaching on the subject being sung. They are designed for the edification and instruction of saints.

4. Sing with understanding:
a. We must sing with the spirit and understanding
- Psa 47:7 “ For God is the King of all the earth: sing ye praises with understanding.”
- 1Co 14:15 “What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.”

Let us consider carefully our congregational singing in the worship service.

The Popular Idea of Unattached, Nomadic Churchless Christians

Unattached Nomadic Churchless Christians

 

sing
What is meant by "unattached"?
What does it mean to be attached?

Dansa
sing - I can see that there might be some uncertainty about what is intended by "unattached." At a minimum, I would say that NT Christians were "attached" to a church through baptism. I believe this makes them a member of that church, though I recognize that this statement breeds some measure of controversy. Simply put, I believe that those who received the NT ordinance of baptism, received it from those who were members of the original church at Jerusalem and as such became members of that assembly. So I would say they were attached by both baptism and membership to the church.

I'll don my flame retardant suit in anticipation of those who support the doctrine of Nomadic Christianity (i.e., that baptism is one thing and church membership is another and the former does not of necessity imply the latter).

sing
Thanks.
Would it be right to say the following:
"The idea of a Christian who is not baptized is non-existent in the New Testament."
"The idea of a Christian who is baptized but is not a member of a church is non-existent in the New Testament."

Thanks.

Dansa
sing: Would it be right to say the following: "The idea of a Christian who is not baptized is non-existent in the New Testament."

Dansa: Yes. I believe that is correct.

sing: "The idea of a Christian who is baptized but is not a member of a church is non-existent in the New Testament."

Dansa: I recognize that this is not explicitly stated in scripture. It is an inference. It is what I currently believe on the matter.

Joeho
Acts 8:4, “Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word.”

This verse documents the dispersion of much of Jerusalem Church because of persecution. The apostles who ministered in the church remained. These people were members of the Jerusalem Church, not necessarily preachers.

Oh, so true, primary preaching of the gospel occurs with the “Feet.” Only speak it as necessary.

sing
Joeho: Did the scattering cause them to become "unattached" with their church?

Joeho
Brother Sing, from what you’ve recently posted, you and I are on the “Same page” on this question. I firmly believe that baptism in the New Testament joins a person to a local church. I fully reject the contemporary notion that baptism has no relationship to church membership. The people who believed and were baptized in Acts 2, were “Added” to the 120, the beginning of Jerusalem Church. In the case of the people in Acts 8:4, their being scattered away from Jerusalem Church didn’t sever their relationship or membership with that church. We read nothing more about them. However, if I allowed my thoughts to follow this, I believe, Biblical principle, it would be my view that, had they eventually influenced the formation of a new church where they were scattered, they would have been charter members of that church.

Dansa
Joeho - I agree. I have encountered the suggestion that "they that gladly received his word were baptized" and "there were added unto them about three thousand souls" are NOT, of necessity, numerically the same. In other words, since the text does not EXPLICITLY state that 3000 were baptized, there might have been 4000 baptized and only 3000 joined the church. I must admit that I had never given that idea any consideration, since it seems implicit that there is no disjunction between the two. How would you respond to the assertion that more were baptized than joined the church in Acts 2:41?

Joeho
Dansa, I’ve never heard that explanation. It strikes me as a classic example of eisegesis, taking your personal opinion to Scripture and trying to force (The Bible word is “Wrest”) Scripture to agree.

Joeho
In my “Journey,” I’ve encountered a number of quite sincere people who thought they could submit to baptism but then refused to submit to and serve their church. Every single person who chose the “I can do it alone” path ended up in one of two train wrecks. 1) They became prey to a smooth-talking false teacher. 2) They became prey to their own imaginations. 2 Corinthians 10:3-6 addresses this problem. It is the gospel warfare to confront and cast down imaginations, not idolize them. Warfare is never about one isolated soldier fighting a whole war by himself. It is about a well-trained army following the directions of its commander against the adversary. Only one war was ever fought by one lone “Soldier.” That war was fought by Jesus and won. The lone soldier who chooses his own strategy and tries to fight alone always becomes a quick and easy casualty to the adversary. Always.

Shaneh
Joeho: Samson fought alone. 

Dansa
Shaneh - Did Samson end up "prey to [his] own imaginations"?

Sunnybon
Acts 11:26 “And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.” by this we know a Christian is a disciple of Christ the head of His Church. There are those who claim to be Christians but are not willing to be disciples ie follow Christ commandments.

Own what you say!

So, don't put your words into my mouth!

 

I am responsible for what I have said or written,
I'm not responsible for what you understand what I have said or written; words do have precise meanings in their context.
Let there be no misunderstanding.

Thank you.

A wise thing to do is, FIRST understand what a man has said before you express your disagreement.

A fair, wise, and apt counsel:

"People who make statements which they have not thought through themselves would be better keeping their mouths shut until light dawns."
~~ Dr George Ella.

I learned this basic truth when I first started on my journey of self-learning many years ago.

Let me give you a hilarious example:

It's so easy to hear someone wrongly. I'll give you two examples.

I have said something to this effect, "Being baptized and remaining unchurched (not a member of a local church of Jesus Christ) is a monstrosity not known in the NT."

Some kind souls think I am calling such believers in Jesus Christ monsters! 😢😢😢

I have said, "Zoom becomes a curse if people use it as a substitute for assembling with the saints for worship." Sincere folks thought I said Zoom itself is a curse thing and is evil, etc. 😢😢😢

Righteousness Imputed, Applied, and Experienced

Justification is A Multifaceted Gem

#Imputed_Legally
#Applied_Personally
#Experienced_Practically

Legal imputation is the basis of personal application; personal application enables practical experience through faith in Christ; faith in Christ EVIDENCES the justified state by God's free grace based upon the righteousness of Christ imputed legally, and applied personally.

A biblical distinction is the essence of sound theology.

"... All the elect of God, everyone that believes in Christ, as all do who are ordained to eternal life; Christ’s righteousness is imputed and applied to all these, and therefore they shall never enter into condemnation, but shall be acquitted and discharged from all things." ~~ Dr John Gill

Classic Gill.

Gill, an old-school Baptist, used two distinct words concerning justification:
righteousness 'IMPUTED' and righteousness 'APPLIED' to distinguish TWO DISTINCT aspects of justification.

How many new school baptists know the distinction between the two words in the context of justification?

When was Christ's righteousness IMPUTED to the elect?

When was Christ's righteousness APPLIED to an elect?

It seems the sum total of their understanding of justification is the experiential justification by their faith, spawned by the popular slogan 'sola fide'.

How subtle is the father of lies?

======

Christ's righteousness was legally imputed to all the elect at the cross;
Christ's righteousness is applied to each individual elect personally at effectual calling out of the native state of sin and condemnation to grace and salvation (This is vital justification, regeneration, adoption and the giving of the gift of the Spirit).

Even so, Adam's sin was imputed to all at the fall, the same sin was applied when we were brought into being by our parents.

Grace Alone

#GraceAlone

"Salvation by grace alone" - I hear your emphasis on the adverb "alone". But what do you mean?

"Salvation by grace alone" means this to us at Sungai Dua Church; does it mean the same to you? Probably not. We have been called nasty names for our beliefs.

Salvation by grace alone briefly summarized:
1. God purposed the eternal salvation of the elect in eternity.

2. Christ secured the eternal salvation for the same elect on the cross.

3. God, through the eternal Word and the Spirit, effectually calls each elect, personally, to eternal salvation when they were still in their native state of sin and death; in the effectual call, justification (vital), regeneration, and adoption occur; therefore bringing an elect out of his native state of sin and death into that state of grace and salvation. Adoption is accompanied by the gift of the Holy Spirit to dwell in the adopted.

The gospel ministry is divinely ordained to call out those whom God has already effectually called to grace and salvation to believe the truth of their eternal salvation freely bestowed by the grace of God in Jesus Christ.

All the elect shall be effectually called unto eternal salvation, each at the time appointed by God; many of these shall be reached by the gospel call and be gathered into the communities of the redeemed people of God, the churches of Jesus Christ. Others are not capable of being outwardly called by the gospel ministry.

Those called out by the gospel ministry are commanded to work out their own salvation with fear and trembling, teaching them that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, they should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world (Titus 2:12); to observe all things whatsoever the Lord has commanded (Mt 28:20).

All the effectually called unto eternal salvation shall be glorified at the return of Christ.

There shall be no literal 1000 year reign on earth after the second coming. That's a fable. Christ's return shall be the end of time and the dawn of the eternal state of blessedness.

Visit and like the SDC page. Thanks. https://www.facebook.com/sdcpenang

Feed My Sheep

Feed... Feed... Feed...
You feed the living,
You don't feed the dead to assist the Spirit to quicken them.

#Feed_My_Sheep
#Those_that_are_given_unto_him_by_his_Father

What the old-school Baptists affirmed:

The gospel ministry is ordained and intended for the gathering of God's children - those whom God the Father gave to His Son, and whom Jesus Christ has redeemed and effectually called - into local churches of Jesus Christ.

1689.26.5
"In the execution of this power wherewith he is so intrusted, the Lord Jesus calls out of the world unto himself, through the ministry of his word, by his Spirit, those that are given unto him by his Father, that they may walk before him in all the ways of obedience, which he prescribes to them in his word. Those thus called, he commands to walk together in particular societies, or churches, for their mutual edification, and the due performance of that public worship, which he requires of them in the world."

Note "those that are given unto him by his Father..." These are the specific and particular objects of the gospel ministry.

In the execution of the power entrusted to Christ as the Messianic King (Mt 28:18), He commissioned His Apostles to make disciples [if you haven't thought about it yet, learn and know this now;  disciples can only be made out of God's children, i.e. the elect whom God has effectually called out of their native state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation in Jesus Christ] through the gospel ministry, and gather them into local churches, for the specific purpose, and with specific duties.

Apostle Paul knew the same truth:
2Ti 2:10 "Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory." It is for the elect's sake.

The Apostles were told the same truth - repeatedly so that it gets through the numbskull -  their ministry has to do with the SHEEP of Christ, those given to Him by the Father. Feeding has to do with the living, those ALREADY effectually called to salvation in Jesus Christ. Their ministry has nothing to do with helping God to bring the dead to life, unfortunately, many Calvinists are still diehard gospel regenerationists, who believe that their gospel ministry is the instrument the Spirit uses to bring the dead to life.

John 21
15 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.
16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

Feed... Feed... Feed... You feed the living, not the dead to assist the Spirit to quicken them.

Those elected and given to Christ are the same redeemed by Christ; those redeemed by Christ are each one effectually called to grace and salvation in Christ Jesus at God's appointed and approved time; the gospel ministry is ordained and intended for those thus called. Isn't this common sense?

The Effectual Calling - Salvation Applied

#The_Effectual_Call
#Salvation_Applied
#Salvation_by_Grace_101

Salvation Purposed - before time in eternity
Salvation Accomplished - at the cross
Salvation Applied - at the effectual call
Salvation Experience - at the initial conversion
Salvation Glorified - at the end of time, resurrection to eternal glory

Eternal salvation is applied when God, at His own approved and accepted time, effectually calls an elect out of his native state of condemnation, death, and alienation to that state of grace and salvation in Jesus Christ; God does this freely and sovereignly when the elect was dead in trespasses and sins.

The effectual call out of the state of sin & death into that of grace and salvation requires these sovereign and gracious activities of God -  in that number and logical order - justification, regeneration and adoption (along with the bestowal of the gift of the Holy Spirit).

The effectual call is often flippantly and erroneously equated with regeneration.

Justification deals with the state of condemnation; regeneration deals with the state of deadness; adoption deals with the state of alienation. These must be dealt with before a sinner is brought out of his native state and into the state of grace and salvation in Christ Jesus.

When the righteousness of Jesus Christ is applied to an elect personally, the justification of life happens (Rom 5:18); this is justification freely by the grace of God (Rom 3:24), NOT through your faith but through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. Too many confuse the two.

The justification of life by the Father, based on the righteousness of  Christ, logically precedes the impartation of spiritual life by the Spirit of God in regeneration. This is basic and elementary.

The born again, i.e. regenerated, are adopted into the family of God and are given the Spirit of adoption to dwell in them. Rom 8:15.

These three Divine activities are distinct and in that logical order, but chronologically, they are simultaneous in God's act of effectually calling an elect out of his native state of condemnation, death, and alienation to that state of grace and salvation in Jesus Christ.

Only one whom God has effectually called out of his native state of condemnation, death, and alienation to that state of grace and salvation is capable of perceiving and believing the truth concerning his salvation by the free and sovereign grace of God. The Spirit of adoption dwelling in him works in him all manner of saving graces, faith being one if them. This grace of faith worked by the indwelling Spirit enables him to believe the things of the Spirit of God.

Believing in the truth of the gospel, i.e. the good news of eternal salvation in Jesus Christ, a child of God experiences the blessedness of his salvation that God has freely and sovereignly bestowed upon him. His faith in Jesus Christ evidences his state of grace and salvation, just as breath evidence that life has been restored to a dead man.

The gospel ministry is ordained and appointed to make disciples of God's children, even those whom He has, by His grace and power, effectually called to grace and salvation in Christ Jesus.

Titus 2:11-12 KJV —
11 ¶For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Ask sensible questions if you don't understand any of the above. If you disagree with any of the above, state what it is and why. I'll give you a good hearing; we'll learn together if you wish.

Prophecies shall fail, Tongues shall cease, Knowledge shall vanish away.

Prophecies shall fail,

 Tongues shall cease, 

Knowledge shall vanish away. 

November 6, 2010
https://web.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/pfbid031QcomdjJr9SPqNZpV9eCXWpN2D6J8o16JxYmzsnye691oBNru3HDQgoHcqeL77D7l

"And He gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ..." Eph 4:11-13.

Any hint on gospel regeneration?
------------

47 comments

Sing F Lau
Christ did say why He gave these teaching offices. The first three are extraordinary for the apostolic time. The only office normative for the NT church is that of pastors and teachers. They are to do the work of the evangelists too. 2Ti 4:5 "But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry."

So, for what exact purpose did Christ give these men?

It is for the perfecting of the saints.

Saints are God's own production - saints are those elect whom God has called out of their native state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation in Jesus Christ by His own free and sovereign will. They have been separated from sin and death unto grace and salvation in Christ.

These saints need the gospel ministry to perfect them, i.e. to nurture those who are spiritual babes to spiritual maturity.

Where is the presumptuous idea of gospel regeneration... of preaching the gospel to assist God in producing His children?

Why is the lie of gospel regeneration so addictive and pernicious?

Charles Page
Sing, I like this discussion! I have a special interest.

Sing F Lau
Charles, tell us about your special interest in the passage!

Charles Page
@Sing, I don't think the prophetic word is just for apostolic times. Perhaps I may concede that the apostolic word or office has ceased yet not really ceased but may continue through the succession of pastors/teachers. Apostles are primary and foundational (though Prophets played a role in the foundation) and the continuity of the perfect building of the body of elect saints till the end.

Charles Page
I am a non-cessationist and I am sure that has a bearing on my belief.

Sing F Lau
@Charles, thanks for raising the issue.

Consider these:
1. 1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

Please note that the gift of prophecy belonged to this group of unique gifts for the apostolic church!

2. 1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

Prophecies shall fail. Paul wrote in the future, but it is ALREADY PAST!

3. NT gives us the qualification for ONE teaching office only: that of pastor-teacher, therefore the ONLY teaching office NORMATIVE for the NT.

There is NO overlap of office... they are distinct and separate, even though there is overlap of functions.

Sing F Lau
@Charles, tell us what you believe has ceased, and what still continue. Thanks.

Charles Page
Sing, I am an experiencialist and try not to venture beyond my experiences but on this, I dare to tread (that is why I blocked Richie from this dialogue) I was raised a Pentecostal and was a Pentecostal pastor for 25 years. I left that but still have very devoted Pentecostal parents and a very spiritual mother. My Pentecostal roots run deep and I am grateful for my heritage of folks with an experiential knowledge of the Holy Spirit.

I am not a trained scholar so I hope I follow your understanding correctly. I have heard the cessationist arguments all my life and have been defensive as a Pentecostal to defend non-cessationism. I never claimed to be a "later day movement" " third wave" nor "charismatic" nor "full gospel" nor did I ever "move in the gifts" I was a Pentecostal pastor/teacher who in doctrinal weakness personally neglected evangelism. I did believe that the gifts of the Spirit, I Cor 12-14 were for the edification of the body and believed that my function was to oversee that operation and ensure that the Bible was the basis of operation. Never did I believe that any teaching came via the gifts of the Spirit nor did i believe any gifts carried any weight toward directing the affairs of the preaching/ teaching office. They were for the comfort, edification and exhortation of the body and not for discipline nor correction.

I am not emphatically able to say that any office has ceased but as I see it the "office" of apostleship does not exist (though perhaps we are in a time when we need one due to the extensive destruction that exegetical interpretations have done to the English speaking nations)

Sing F Lau
You don't have to be a trained scholar. All you need to do is to be a humble student at the feet of Christ.

There is no need to block anyone from expressing their thought... because each thought should drive us closer to the Scriptures.

Experience has its proper place. But I have learned to say with Apostle Peter the distinction between experience and the inspired Scriptures...

19 ¶ We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

So, with great respect, I say to you, despite all your precious experiences, "We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts..."

The function of the Apostles was to deliver to the Church everything that Christ had commanded them. Their specific job was done... the office ceased.

Ed Elliott
Sing, if prophecies and tongues, have ceased as you claim then knowledge must have ceased as well b/c it is listed as "vanishing" as well. Since we know that Knowledge hasn't ceased it is possible the others haven't stopped either.

Cessationists argue that the moment the last Apostle died, or when the final sentence of the last book of the Bible had been written, all miracles including speaking in tongues ceased.

Are they correct? Let's first establish the date that miracles supposedly ceased. The Apostle Paul died somewhere between 64 AD and 69 AD, and the last Apostle, the Apostle John, died in 110 AD. So let's compare the cut-off date, the year of the last Apostle's death, with the timeline of events in the Early Church: Justin Martyr (100 AD--165 AD) was only 10 years old when the Apostle John died. He was an early Christian apologist. His works are the earliest Christian apologies, of substantial size, to survive today.

Forty years after the Apostle John's death, he wrote in 150 AD:

"For the prophetical gifts remain with us, even to this present time." (Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter 82).

And, "Now, it is possible to see amongst us women and men who possess gifts of the Spirit of God;" Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter 88.

It is simply beyond dispute that the prophetic gifts continued until 150 AD.--40 years after the last Apostle died.

Justin Martyr was no heretic. His writings are still accepted to this day by all theologians I know of, as sound teachings.

Irenaeus (c.130-202 AD) was born 20 years after the last Apostle died. He was bishop of Lugdunum in Gaul, which is now Lyon, France. His writings were formative in the early development of Christian theology. Like Justin Martyr, he was an early Christian apologist. His writings carry significant weight because he was a disciple of Polycarp, who had been a disciple of the Apostle John.

Irenaeus writes of believers in his day:

"Wherefore, also, those who are in truth His disciples, receiving grace from Him, do in His name perform [miracles], so as to promote the welfare of other men, according to the gift which each one has received from Him. For some do certainly and truly drive out devils, so that those who have thus been cleansed from evil spirits frequently both believe [in Christ] and join themselves to the Church. Others have foreknowledge of things to come: they see visions, and utter prophetic expressions. Others still, heal the sick by laying their hands upon them, and they are made whole. Yea, moreover, as I have said, the dead even have been raised up, and remained among us for many years. And what shall I more say? It is not possible to name the number of gifts which the Church, [scattered] throughout the whole world, has received from God, in the name of Jesus Christ," Irenaeus Against Heresies, Book II, Chapter 32, section 4.

Additionally, Irenaeus writes:

"We speak wisdom among them that are perfect, terming those persons "perfect" who have received the Spirit of God, and who through the Spirit of God do speak in all languages, as he used Himself also to speak. In like manner we do also hear many brethren in the Church, who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light for the general benefit the hidden things of men, and declare the mysteries of God," --Irenaeus Against Heresies, Book V. Chapter 6. section 1.

The writings of Irenaeus carry significant weight, especially concerning spiritual gifts considering:

Irenaeus had learned directly from Polycarp who had sat under the instruction of the Apostle John.

John had travelled with Christ and had spoken in tongues at Pentecost.

Surely the Apostle John knew genuine prophecy and genuine speaking in tongues when he experienced them and heard them in others. It is only reasonable to assume that John passed clear teachings on to Polycarp, who in turn, passed such teachings and understandings on to Irenaeus. Had John given any warning that the gifts would cease upon his death, both Polycarp and Iraneaus would have known of it.

Irenaeus testifies, in writings that exist to this day, that "prophetic expressions" and believers "who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages" were so common and widespread in his life (130 - 202 AD) that "...it is not possible to name the number of gifts..."

His comments were written probably 80 to 90 years after the last Apostle died.

If these gifts ceased 90 years previously, then to what was Irenaeus referring?

Charles Page
@Sing, I am an experientialist, but a true Pentecostal experience is not truth based on experience (as most anti-pentecostalists assume) but a truth based on Word and Spirit. My antithesis to you would be that you are a mere "humble student at the feet of Christ" with an emphasis on your humility in exegetical abilities.

My "sure word of prophecy" is I have the author of the sacred scriptures and have no want for any other to teach me. I am not humbled by my experience but by His presence! A true Pentecostal is not experience-oriented but Spirit-oriented a humble servant sitting at Christ's feet today is experience-oriented dependant on his own and others' tested experiences.

Hopefully, I am not antithetical here to the point of alienation!

Jesus left this earth so that we would not sit at His feet but that we would be taught by the Spirit.

Sing F Lau
Charles@ "Hopefully I am not antithetical here to the point of alienation! "

I burst out laughing when I read this line!

I will nominate you to be an Apostle if you care to be one. We really need one in our perilous time... to give us an infallible interpretation of the Scriptures.

Sing F Lau
Elliott@ "if prophecies and tongues, have ceased as you claim then knowledge must have ceased as well b/c it is listed as "vanishing" as well. Since we know that Knowledge hasn't ceased it is possible the others haven't stopped either."
-------

I expected that question every time this issue is discussed.

You have written so much! I did not read beyond the first paragraph. That first paragraph needs to be dealt with first so that there is common ground to carry on sensible discussion.

Can you please tell us what is the 'knowledge' in context?

In the way you understand it, will 'knowledge' ever vanish away? If yes, when?

1Co 13:8 "Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away."

What knowledge is Paul speaking about?

Will it ever vanish away? If yes, when?

Adam Wells
Bro Sing - You mentioned in a previous post to give a simple test... "This is a test... get a new believer who has never heard ..." Why not apply the same test to the cessationist controversy? Would any new believer truly read the New Testament and walk away saying that the gifts of the Spirit ended with the death of the apostles? Is your test accurate then or should it only be applied to escatology?

Sing F Lau
Who is saying the gifts of the Spirit ended with the apostles?
Why are you so woolly <lol>

Just what are you talking about? By 'the gifts of the Spirit', what do you mean - do you mean those specific things mentioned in this passage?

1Co 13:8 "Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away."

So, be a bit more precise please... profitable discussion requires that.

All have to agree that the passage plainly declares that these things shall 'fail... cease... vanish away' at some point, 'shall' is with respect to Paul's time. Any who don't agree that those things mentioned shall 'fail... cease... vanish away' at some point after Paul wrote his epistle, can leave the room.

Okay, so apply that test here... now that the issue is very clear.

If any wish to discuss when those things pass away after Paul wrote that epistle, then please remain, and we shall discuss.

I have no ready-made answers. If you have, let us hear from you. Have they 'failed... ceased... vanished away'? If yes, when?

If not, then when shall they?

Or shall these ever pass away?

Pick your choice, and let us hear from you.

And please keep to the subject...

Charles Page
They will cease when we see through a clear glass and understand in whole not in parts. That did not happen with the canonization of scripture. It is yet to happen when we have no need for gifts and we all speak one language and we are all fuzzy love balls not needing any interpretations. (as well as translators)

Adam Wells
I must conclude that those things that Paul was referring to will pass away, have not yet passed away... for as Charles pointed out, we still only know in part.

Sing F Lau
Adam, this is a very interesting study... I hope you will stay on until I CHASE you out... which I won't!

Very well then... tell us what is the knowledge in that verse! I don't want to assume to know.

Is the knowledge in that verse ABOUT believers' CAPACITY TO KNOW... like you have expressed... "we still only know in part" - is that what Apostle Paul meant? Could it be the SOURCE of their knowledge (hint.. hint.. hint...!)

Apostle Paul said,
"8 ¶ Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

Why did apostle Paul say that at that point in time they know in part... and prophesy in part?

He did say that 'knowing in part and prophesying in part will end... i.e. when that which is perfect IS COME... THEN that which is in part (knowing, and prophesying in part) shall be done away with.

The question then is: what is that thing which is perfect?

Has it come? Yes, when? No, when?

Apostle Paul spoke of becoming a man. Did he ever become a man with regard to the issue of 'knowing in part and prophesying in part? Did the NT church ever become a man with respect to the same subject? Or is the NT church still a child with respect to the subject under consideration? These are weighty questions, you would agree!

Some questions for your kind consideration, as we study this subject.

I give you full liberty to raise any question related to the topic... we will discuss and study with the open Bible... this will benefit all who want to learn the truth.

We will keep our experience in our respective wardrobe <lol>

Sing F Lau
Page@ "they will cease when we see thru a clear glass and understand in whole not in parts. That did not happen with the canonization of scripture."
========
Charles, supposing you are only able to know in part now, and sometime in the future you will know in whole.

Now, please tell me what is that which you WILL know and understand in whole? Please tell us what that is.

I know, your whole idea revolves around your capacity and ability to know and understand in part and in whole.

When you are glorified, will you be able to know in whole like God? Is that what you mean by 'understand in whole not in parts'?

Do you know that something MOST AMAZING happened when the Scriptures were fully given? Can you tell us what happened?

With the complete revelation of God's word, something astounding happened - what is it?

When you have only part of the Scriptures, how much can be known and understood? How much can be prophesied?

If I forget to answer some of my own questions, and if you want to know the answers, please goad me.

Charles Page
1) that which is perfect. "in heaven" - a state of absolute perfection"
2) I shall know even as I am known. I will not know in whole like God but will know myself as God knows me. Something none of us experience in part.
3) No I don't know what you know about something MOST AMAZING that happened when the Scriptures were fully given? I know the Inspirator who knows in whole but reveals in parts to me. What is MOST AMAZING is the presence of the inspirator who indwells me and guides me to the end till I reach perfection.
4) I believe we have the whole (completed) of scripture but we see it through opaque glass, dimly, darkly. Scripture is complete but our interpretation is imperfect.

Adam Wells
Sing - "Do you know that something MOST AMAZING happened when the Scriptures were fully given? Can you tell us what happened?

With the complete revelation of God's word, something astounding happened - what is it?"

Please do explain, as I am curious as to how you connect this passage to the canonization or completion of scripture.

Sing F Lau
Charles, please peruse this short bible study note on the passage under consideration. I have just uploaded it here:
https://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2010/11/what-is-that-which-is-perfect-1cor-138.html It was done years ago, 1996.

I welcome any constructive objections... these will only help each one of us to study the Scriptures.

Charles Page
It helps me to understand your reason for such a study. What is your connection to the Charismatic/pentecostal movement? Have you had bad encounters with them? Is it a matter of extremes you have personally observed?

Sing F Lau
I lived in a time when the charismatic and pentecostal movement was sweeping over this nation, splitting up churches in so many places. So the storm was raging around us, I told the 3-year-old church then that we had better study through the Scriptures on the subject, and be settled in our own mind.

My only personal encounter was when I was visiting a friend in another city while on college vacation... he brought me along to his church... and it was weird as well as wild, and that was in the year 1987, in Geelong, Australia. And that was a typical Pentecostal church then.

As I said, I would rather leave my experiences in the wardrobe.

Sing F Lau
Does anyone marvel at those apostolic preachers who were so knowledgeable concerning the gospel of Jesus Christ, and preaching it powerfully EVEN THOUGH they only had the OT Scriptures with them?

How did they understand the OT so well WITHOUT the light of the NT?

How does that 'knowledge' mentioned in 1Cor 13:8 jive in with that unique phenomenon?

1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

Charles Page
They were well versed in the OT - however, they had the Holy Spirit as the teacher to guide them into proper understanding.

Sing F Lau
We are absolutely foreign to the idea of having the OT as the only available Scriptures. We are so used to having the complete Scriptures, with the NT shedding dazzling light upon the OT... that we don't appreciate the situation when there were only OT Scriptures.

Supposing we were living in the days of the Apostles, how much would we be able to understand the OT and preach Christ out of it? But the Apostles were able to do that with amazing ease!

How did they understand the OT so well WITHOUT the light of the NT?

They were given the special gift of 'knowledge' mentioned in 1Cor 13:8.

That 'special knowledge' has ceased! Why? The way to understand the OT has been permanently inscripturated - NT Scriptures!

Now it is:
"2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

Ed Elliott
Sing, you are the one making the claim that Tongues and prophecies and done away with. I just pointed out that the passage mentioned "knowledge" and I don't believe it is the gift of knowledge or wisdom. To suggest that these gifts were going to cease makes no sense b/c in the 14th chapter Paul begins to explain their function and purpose. Now why would God give such detailed instruction for something that wasn't going to continue? If just the apostles operated in these gifts why write the church and tell them how to function and to desire them? Why would Paul say, "be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues." if these gifts were to cease? Look how much instruction is given on something that some believe would stop even b/4 the New Testament was compiled.

Sing F Lau
Elliot, it is not just the gift of knowledge or wisdom in a general sense. It is the gift of knowledge in the revelatory sense... those three gifts were all revelatory gifts... special ability to know the truth of the gospel with the NT Scriptures.

"To suggest that these gifts were going to cease makes no sense..."

It makes no sense ONLY because you fail to see that it makes plenty of sense because these gifts were STILL in operation when Apostle Paul wrote that epistle. Since they were in operation, it was necessary that he gave the instructions on the exercise and purpose of those gifts. Those good gifts were capable of being abused by some of God's children!

But you conclude that since he gave instruction on the exercise and purpose of those gifts, they, therefore, will continue to the end of the gospel age!

You said, "If just the apostles operated in these gifts why write the church and tell them how to function and to desire them?"

Whoever claims that those gifts were restricted to the apostles only????????????????? When they are described as apostolic gifts, it is meant that they were gifts restricted to the apostolic time. With the passing away of the apostles, and divine revelation having been completed... those gifts fizzled away... as stated by Paul.

The difficulty is imagined!

Ed Elliott
Where does it say that those gifts are just for the apostolic age? And where are they described as apostolic gifts? I see no evidence for it and in my first post that you claim you didn't read I supply historical evidence from respected early church fathers some trained by the apostles themselves that say those gifts continued on after the apostles died.

Why wouldn't those gifts continue to the end of the apostolic age? People still need miracles, healing, etc. The early church fathers proved those gifts continued and didn't cease as you suggest.

Sing F Lau
The explanation is quite simple why those special gifts went beyond the apostles for a while... though the inspired Scriptures had all been given through the apostles, the NT Scriptures were not available to the NT churches for quite a while... those gifts fizzled away... instead of abiding to the end of the gospel age.

No one suggests that the moment the last apostle past away, revelatory gifts passed away instantaneously with them.

Another difficulty imagined <lol>.

Miracles, healing, etc... these SIGN gifts are distinct from the three revelatory gifts under consideration. You can start a separate post and we can discuss there.

Ed Elliott
Sing, why don't we have any of the early church fathers many whom were trained and taught by the apostles support the idea that only "gifts" were for a certain time period? This type of teaching that these gifts were only for the "apostolic age" didn't happen until more modern times.

Ed Elliott
So the NT scriptures tell us how to function in the gifts but when the NT is complete we don't need the gifts that it teaches we should desire and covet b/c the NT is complete. That makes no sense at all. You are saying that the bible is teaching believers to not do what the bible says. So we should not covet spiritual gifts as the bible says b/c we now have the bible.

Although in his early years, Augustine believed that all miracles had ceased by the end of the lives of the apostles, his view was transformed by the compelling evidence of many well-attested miracles that occurred during a powerful revival that occurred throughout the churches of North Africa that were under his supervision. In the last section of his epic work The City of God, Augustine wrote about numerous miracles that he had personally witnessed and investigated, including remarkable miraculous healings involving breast cancer, paralysis, blindness, and even people who were resurrected from the dead.

Have you ever wondered why the Book of Acts has no ending? Is it b/c it is still being written by the church today?

Sing F Lau
What need was there for those early church fathers to say those revelatory gifts were only for a certain time... when such a fact was so obvious to all... those revelatory gifts were fast fizzling away, and eventually failed, ceased, and vanished away???????

The teaching that those revelatory gifts were only for the apostolic age had to be stated in modern times because of the modern phenomenon where claims of apostleship, special prophecies and knowledge, and tongues are claimed by all sorts of charlatans and religious quacks!

The 'trinitarian' truth did not need to be formulated in fire until such perverse men arose to attack that point of truth.

Ed Elliott
The fact is those gifts were still in operation long after the apostles went home to glory. A close study of church history one can see that speaking in tongues never ceased.

Charles Page
Sing, we will probably agree to disagree to a certain extent but you have inspired me with a new dimension. Brother, you are an inspired teacher and your congregation is blessed to have you as their pastor.

I look forward to much more dialogue with you on this subject.

Sing F Lau
Elliot@ So the NT scriptures tell us how to function in the gifts but when the NT is complete we don't need the gifts that it teaches we should desire and covet b/c the NT is complete. That makes no sense at all. You are saying that the bible is teaching believers to not do what the bible says. So we should not covet spiritual gifts as the bible says b/c we now have the bible...

=======

There is much-muddled reasoning here because context is ignored. Those gifts were in operation in the infant churches... and they were abused, therefore calling forth the needed instructions on the purpose and orderly manifestations of those revelatory gifts.

Those revelatory gifts (prophecies, knowledge and tongues) shall fail, cease, and vanish away. But while still present and operating in the infant churches, the instruction regarding them was needed.

Those revelatory gifts (prophecies, knowledge and tongues) shall fail, cease, and vanish away. This is in sharp contrast to what shall ABIDE...

1Cor 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

And these are the BEST GIFTS spoken of in

1Cor 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

The best gifts are the gifts the ENDURE and ABIDE, throughout the gospel age... not AFTER the gospel age!!!

You are making Apostle Paul told to tell the Corinthian believers to desire and covet the showy and impressive gifts that shall fail, cease, and vanish away.

I say Apostle Paul exhorts them to covet earnestly the best gifts, i.e. faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

"Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away."

These gifts ABIDE throughout the gospel age... while revelatory gifts of prophecies, knowledge and tongues lasted a while.

Sing F Lau
"The fact is those gifts were still in operation long after the apostles went home to glory. A close study of church history one can see that speaking in tongues never ceased."
======

'Speaking in tongues' of course, never ceased - I witnessed in temples where mediums fall into trance and speak gibberish... and this is a common phenomenon in many cultures...

But the biblical gift of tongues (one singular gift with the plurality of tongues) enabled a man to miraculously speak many languages that are entirely foreign to him... for him to declare the wonderful work of God in redemption.

Anything else DOES NOT meet the revelatory gift of tongues!

Ed Elliott
Could you please explain why you think that the gifts were "abused"?
Paul said "grace" was abused but he didn't stop preaching it.

The best gifts were the gifts needed at that time it is why we are told to desire the best gifts. If the sick need healing then the gifts of healing would be the best gifts for that situation etc..

All gifts should be tempered with love, one could have great faith, miracles etc. but not love they be making noise. They themselves would not profit from their use.

Again I explained that those early church fathers never taught or expected the gifts to cease and their writings show that they didn't.

For the sake of argument, I am talking about the biblical use of tongues not some counterfeit but again for their to be a counterfeit you have to have the real or their wouldn't be a counterfeit. So to bring up what the pagans do is silly and an intellectual dodge, pagans preach as well to so does that mean all preaching today is false of course not but your comparison is just as ludicrous. Lets keep this discussion on biblical issues not fake or false cultist activity.

Paul said he prayed in tongues more than you all, the idea that tongues is just languages is not accurate at all and to ignore that their is a private and personal use of tongues in one's prayer life and a public ministerial use is to confuse the issue and not properly divide the word of truth.

Sing F Lau
Elliot@ 'Could you please explain why you think that the gifts were "abused"? Paul said "grace" was abused but he didn't stop preaching it."
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For gratifying & parading self instead of edifying the church.
"12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful."

@ Grace was abused, and that abuse must be corrected. He didn't stop preaching grace because he didn't say grace will fail, cease or vanish away!

It was precisely that those gifts were ABUSED that called forth the needed REBUKE and instructions.

He didn't stop the exercise of those gifts because they were still in operation. But he did say they shall fail, cease or vanish away!

Sing F Lau
Elliot@ Paul said he prayed in tongues more than you all, the idea that tongues are just languages is not accurate at all and to ignore that there is a private and personal use of tongues in one's prayer life and a public ministerial use is to confuse the issue and not properly divide the word of truth.
--------

Paul DIDN'T say he PRAYED in tongues more than them all. He did say HE SPEAK with tongues more than them all. " 18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:"

There is a great difference between speaking in tongues and praying in tongues, and there is a difference between praying in tongues in public and in private.

What constitutes biblical tongues must be determined by the Scriptures alone. All through 1Cor 12-14, it is taken for granted that TONGUES can be interpreted and understood. And if you think that tongues are some gibberish incoherent sound, I won't waste time disputing.

Having said that, let it be noted that when Apostle Paul spoke of praying in tongues, he was being SARCASTIC and REBUKING the FOOLISH and VAIN practice. It is weird that so many folks are SO OBTUSE and slow... they take his statement of rebuke and sarcasm as a statement of compliment and approval of such practice! Here:

13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
(This rule must be observed, otherwise foolishness and vanity!)

14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
(If you pray in an unknown tongue... your understanding is unfruitful!!!)

And the mockery here:
9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
(A foolish man speaking into thin air if he does not utter words easy to understand! Ha ha ha!...)

11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.
(A man who wants to parade himself with his gift, instead of impressing, is seen as a barbarian... wasting his breath saying things no one understands.

17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.
(And people think Paul is commending them for well doing... but this is a rebuke for this abuse of the gifts...

Ed Elliott
Sing, Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual [gifts], seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

Paul is presenting the proper motive for going to church. It is to bless others. We should look forward to church as an opportunity to share what God has given us with others. Too often people's motive for going to church is to pay a debt to God or to get blessed personally. Of course, there are times when we need the help of our brothers and sisters in Christ, but it really is more blessed to give than to receive (Acts 20:35).

With this in mind, every member of the body of Christ should be prepared to give of himself when he goes to church, just as he would expect the minister to be prepared. It wouldn't be right for the minister to just "show up" and not have anything to give. Likewise, it's not right for members of the church to just show up and warm a pew. We should pray and be expectant that the Lord will use us to show love to someone.

This was the meaning of what he wrote it had nothing to do with the abuse of the gifts.
else, or minister through the gifts, as Paul is presenting here.

Ed Elliott
Sing, one must speak to pray or can you pray and not speak. You are splitting hairs and not looking at the context of the scripture.

Wherefore let him that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue pray that he may interpret.

Based on his statement in the previous verse, Paul is encouraging these believers to put ministry to the body ahead of personal ministry. "He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself, but he that prophesieth edifieth the church

In context, Paul is speaking about interpreting a message in tongues in the church assembly, we can also pray and receive interpretation of our tongue in our private prayer life too.

For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

1 Cor. 14:14: This is one of the great advantages of speaking in tongues. Our born-again spirit is perfect (Heb. 10:10,14; 12:23). Our born-again spirit has the mind of Christ. It has all the power of Christ (Eph. 1:18-20). It is complete (Col. 2:9-10). Therefore, when we are praying from our spirit, we are praying with the mind of Christ, using our most holy faith (Jude 20).

Too often our mind, with all its wrong thinking and unbelief, gets in the way. Praying in tongues bypasses our mind and allows our spirit to have unhindered communion with the Father.

What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. 1 Cor. 14:15: Four different times in this verse, Paul said "I will." Once we have received this gift, speaking in tongues and interpreting that tongue is a decision of the will. Some people have mistakenly thought, "We do not have control over this gift. We can't speak in tongues when we want. We can't turn the Holy Spirit on and off." That's not the case. It's not that we turn the Holy Spirit on and off at our will. He is always "on." We are the ones who are on and off. Anytime we will to do so, the Holy Spirit will give us the utterance to speak in tongues and the ability to interpret.

"Praying with the spirit" and "singing with the spirit" are describing praying and singing in tongues. That is clear from the context. In the previous verse, Paul said when we pray in an unknown tongue, our spirit is praying. Notice also the use of the lowercase "s" in the word spirit. That is identifying our spirit, not the Holy Spirit.

Paul wouldn't mock or be sarcastic about something so holy and precious to Jesus as His gifts to the church. I really don't know how you come up with something like that it is almost heretical to mock God's gifts like that.

Sing F Lau
Sing, one must speak to pray or can you pray and not speak. You are splitting hairs and not looking at the context of the scripture.
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Not true Elliot.
Though both activities use spoken words, when you speak, it implies that you are addressing people. When you pray, you are addressing God... whether in public or in private.

Apostle Paul was obviously rebuking these Corinthians who were abusing those gifts - and pointing out the ridiculous situation when the gifts were abused!

So many think that Paul is approving and commending them!

You said this: "Too often our mind, with all its wrong thinking and unbelief, gets in the way. Praying in tongues bypasses our mind and allows our spirit to have unhindered communion with the Father. "

Apostle Paul said this: "For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful."

I believe that is a statement of REBUKE, not approval and commendation. You take it as a commendation...

You take this as Paul's approving praying in an unknown tongue for personal edification! Do you ever wonder why and how praying in unknown tongues (not nonsensical gibberish) actually promotes unhindered communion with the Father? Isn't praying in one's mother tongue the most natural thing to do?

And didn't Apostle Paul say those gifts were for the EDIFICATION of the church.... and rebuke those who abused them for their own gratification?

You said, "Paul wouldn't mock or be sarcastic about something so holy and precious to Jesus was His gifts to the church."

No, he was not mocking at the gifts. He was mocking their claim that their abuse is for self-edification. Paul said that the idea was just nonsense... and mock at such an idea.

People say, 'self-edification'.

Paul said, 'Unfruitful... speaking into the air... barbarian...'!

They are surely on two different wavelengths!