Monergism and Synergism

 

Monergistic in eternal salvation; 

Synergistic in the temporal salvation.

A biblical distinction is the essence of sound theology.

Initially posted here:
https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/10210090636477914

Mr. Spurgeon is loved by many and his words are often taken as the gospel truth. However, in the meme, his idea is erroneous and misleading.

All the activities by the mighty, efficacious and irresistible grace of God ALONE are apart from human activities, and they always accomplish their purposes perfectly, based on the exact same ground, and having the exact same effect upon each and every elect.

Let me explain.

When God justifies a condemned sinner, He does it freely by His mighty, efficacious and irresistible grace alone; each one is perfectly justified, based solely upon the righteousness of Christ, and with the exact same effect. No one is more, or less justified among the justified.

When the Spirit of God regenerates, He does it freely by His mighty, efficacious and irresistible grace alone; each one is perfectly regenerated, based solely upon the righteousness of Christ freely applied by God, and with the exact same effect. No one is more, or less regenerated among the born again.

Even so, in adoption. No one is more or less adopted than any other.

Also, in the definitive sanctification; all are equally set apart from their native state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation, by the exact same grace of God, based on the exact same ground, and with the exact same effect upon those acted upon.

And in glorification too.

However, these are not true once human activities are involved...
- In conversion, the human work of believing is involved. No believing, no conversion! More than that, the human activity of preaching is involved! God's children are converted to vastly different degrees; some strong, others weak, some even unbelieving; this can hardly be disputed. Why? Human works are involved.

- In practical sanctification, man's activities of working out his own temporal salvation (i.e. involving his spiritual well-being) are involved in his own sanctification.

It is the mighty, efficacious and irresistible grace of God ALONE that makes it possible for a man to do those things but doing those things REQUIRES the free will (already renewed by the saving activities of God) of God's children in performing them.

"Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."
Work requires exertion and time.

Election to salvation & Offer of salvation

 

Elect to save some but salvation offered to all?
Why offer to all? To make them without excuse, you say.
So, do those who missed the offer have an excuse?  

September 25, 2018 
https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/10212406572494867

Simple biblical truth:

- God purposed eternal salvation for His chosen people,

- Christ accomplished that eternal salvation for the same,

- The Holy Spirit freely and sovereignly applies that eternal salvation to each of the chosen people in God's own appointed time when they were still in their native state of sin and death, and in enmity against God.

The preaching of the gospel is God's ordained means of calling out His redeemed people, those to whom He has freely bestowed the eternal salvation, calling them to believe the truth of their salvation in Jesus Christ, make disciples of them, gathering them into the churches of Jesus Christ, teaching them that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, they should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world.

The free offer of salvation is just stupid (i.e. lacking common sense); in the offer, salvation is obviously and necessarily offered to those without salvation, even those dead in trespasses and sins; it is as superstitious as offering food to the dead.

There is no offer in the preaching of the gospel; there is the proclamation of the good news of what God has to save His people in Jesus Christ, calling the hearers to believe the truth of their salvation. Those that ARE SAVED among the hearers perceive the gospel as the good news of God's mighty power in saving them. To the rest, the same gospel is foolishness.

1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

The preaching of the gospel is brought to them that are saved, that have been saved - to whom the Holy Spirit has freely and sovereignly applied that eternal salvation when they were still in their native state of sin and death, and in enmity against God - calling them to believe the truth of their salvation by the free and sovereign grace of God.

Eph 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise.

Their salvation by God's free and sovereign grace is PRIOR and DISTINCT to their act hearing and believing the truth of their salvation; otherwise, there would be no truth of their salvation to believe.  They are called to believe what is ALREADY TRUE, not in order to make something come true. That's Arminianism as well as Calvinism.

This is simple and plain to minds that have not been poisoned by lies and soundbytes.

Two little but crucial words "even so"

 

Epic struggle, Incredible escape; even so, 
escape from the lies and fables. 
Watch the video of the struggle here:

https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/10217428930890688

Initially posted here:
https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/10212396971974860

EVEN SO...

Pay attention, close attention, to little words. 
"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;
EVEN SO,
by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." Romans 5:18

If sincere folks and their intelligent theologians had paid attention to those two small words 'EVEN SO' they wouldn't have ended up believing the fiction or fable of their legal justification by their faith!

Your legal condemnation was brought about by the act of your divinely appointed representative head, Adam;
EVEN SO,
you legal justification is brought about by the act of your divinely appointed representative head, Christ Jesus.

Your vital/personal condemnation was brought about when you were brought into being through your conception in the womb of your mother;
EVEN SO,
your vital/personal justification is brought about when God effectually called you out of your native state of condemnation and death to that of justification and life.

Your practical/experiential condemnation is brought about by your actual acts of sins; they evidence your state of condemnation, and defile and condemn your conscience;
EVEN SO,
your practical/experiential justification is brought about  by your acts of believing, they certify your justified state, your faith vindicates your justified state by God's free and sovereign grace.

EVEN SO, i.e. in the exact parallel manner...

Membership and Churchmanship Issues

Jalan Sungai Dua, Sungai Dua, 11700 Penang

https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/10214628920252172
September 23, 2019

#membership #churchmanship

Some brief thoughts on the two matters; I hope they are coherent; I'm a poor communicator.

1. I believe that resident membership is not a prerequisite for a believer's baptism.

Many, who were baptized and added to the church in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost, soon after dispersed and returned to their homes in the various far-flung places throughout the vast Roman empire, Acts 2:5.

They, as devout Jews, would likely return to Jerusalem a few times a year initially until churches were established in their far-flung cities by the itinerant Apostles.

However, non-resident membership is not the normal or ideal state of discipleship.

 2. I believe that baptism and membership are co-extensive. The Apostles established the pattern in Acts 2. Everyone baptized on that day is added to the church as a member, regardless of whether they can be residents or non-residents. The Apostles certainly knew that many of them were non-residents.

3. I believe that members of a church MUST practice good churchmanship, regardless of whether they are residents or non-residents for the time being, just as good citizenry is expected of each citizen whether they are at home or abroad.

4. Good churchmanship is a duty each Christian - a baptized member of a church - OWES to Christ, his Lord; and it's a reasonable duty, and a befitting adorning of our profession of Christ's blessed name, whether we are resident members or non-resident members.

Therefore, non-resident members are to be a part of a church as much as their conviction and conscience permit them in their circumstances. Be regular, be punctual, be alert, sing well, hear well, minister to others when opportunities arise, practice hospitality, support the work appropriately, etc, etc.

This way, you adorn the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ; you bear a good testimony for your home church where you still maintain your membership.

5. More importantly,  you are doing all these unto the Lord and for His sake; these good works are owed to Him, wherever His providence has put you now. Do the same as if you are in your home church.

- And if and when you are *DOCTRINALLY* comfortable with that church, cast your lot with it; be a member of that church.

However, remember, "Buy the truth, and sell it not." Don't trade the truth for a morsel of convenience or a bowl of red bean soup. Don't be a red pottage, Esau.

6. If you still have a sense of belonging to the church of your membership because of the truth, at least keep in touch with home, pray for your home church, and come home whenever you can scheme (we are all good at that, aren't we?) an opportunity in the meanwhile.

Have a long-term plan... *plot and scheme* to return home... if the Lord so lead you. The location of your home church (Penang is a beautiful place...) is not too bad a place; any place is a lovely place where the Lord is loved and served.

7. If the gospel truth is of enough value to you, pray that the Lord will give you the opportunities to convert others (God's children), one by one, and gather them under your wings and start a church work; the Lord will raise you up to meet the herculean task. Perhaps that's the reason the Lord's providence directed you to your present place.

Surely, those at home will do their utmost to assist, unless they have become so self-obsessed and inward-looking.

p/s a Christian has confessed faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as the Son of God AND has been baptized upon a credible confession of faith in Christ Jesus.

To Be Established Requires Labourious Pounding

Are you a concrete pile or a rotten stick?
Are you willing to be pounded firmly into the word of God?

1Ti 5:17
Let the elders that rule well... especially they who LABOUR in the word and doctrine.

Labour (verb) - kopiaō (G2872)... sounds like coffee but far from it.
- κοπιάω kopiáō, kop-ee-ah'-o; from a derivative of G2873.
- to feel fatigued; by implication, to work hard.
- (bestow) labour, toil, be wearied.

The KJV translates kopiaō in the following manner: labour (16x), bestow labour (3x), toil (3x), be wearied (1x).

Biblical usage:
- to grow weary, tired, exhausted (with toil or burdens or grief)
- to labour with wearisome effort, to toil
- of bodily labour
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2872

Driving the piles (of the Lord's own making) firmly into the holy ground of the word and doctrine is HARD LABOUR.

#To Be Established Requires Labourious Pounding
To the end, ye may be established.

Rom 1:11
For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established.

Apostle Paul said these words to those he described as " the called of Jesus Christ, the beloved of God, and called to be saints." (v6,7a). These need to be established by the faithful ministry of the word.

to establish (stērizō):
i. to make stable, place firmly, set fast, fix
ii. to strengthen, make firm
iii. to render constant, confirm, one's mind

Gill's commentary:
"... to the end that saints may be established; for such who are called by grace, need establishing. They are indeed in a safe state and condition; they are encircled in the arms of everlasting love, they are fixed in the hands of Christ, secured in an everlasting covenant, established on the rock of ages, and settled in a state from whence they can never fall: [sing: this describes the state of grace they have been brought into, with respect to their eternal salvation.] yet, notwithstanding this, they are sometimes very unstable in their hearts, in their frames, in the exercise of grace, and the discharge of duty, and in professing and adhering to the doctrines of the Gospel; wherefore they need establishing, as to a more firm persuasion of interest in the love of God, and in the covenant of grace, as to a more stable exercise of grace in Christ, and as to a more constant discharge of duty, and steady profession of adherence to the truths of the Gospel; to all which the ministration of the word has a tendency, with a divine blessing." [sing: Did you notice, Gill distinguishes the eternal salvation from the temporal salvation; the former needs no establishing for it is as firm as possibly can be by the free grace of God when we are rotten decaying sticks; His grace has turned us into those hardened concrete piles; those piles need to be pounded into the solid ground of the word of grace. Apostle deals with the latter.]

Such who are called to grace, NEED ESTABLISHING. Such who are conceived and born, need nurturing so that they may be established, i.e.,  reach adulthood, wise and filled with knowledge, and of service to God, and fellow men.

Hebrews 5:12
"For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat."

Ephesians 4:14
"That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive..."

Those that are called by grace into the state of grace and eternal salvation need establishing. To be established they need some pounding! What needs to be done in order to be established in our most holy faith? We need some hard pounding from the piling machine (the ministry of the word) to drive us firmly into the word of grace. Are we willing and ready for such pounding?

Piles not pounded firmly into the ground are eyesores and pose grave dangers.

"Without debate, NO one will be saved!"

 

People go to debate with an 

entirely different mindset - WAR!

A brother made these astounding statements to me, persuading me to join one of his many Debate groups. I thought I have heard much... but I'm wrong!

He stated,
Everyone is won to Christ by debate.
Without debate, NO one will be saved!
Witnessing IS debate (AND prayer).

===========

I responded,
I beg to differ. Those who engage in debate on doctrinal points are already in Christ even though their understanding of the truth of their salvation in Christ may differ widely. Those who engage in debates are ALREADY SET and ENTRENCHED in their beliefs... the Calvinists trying to prove Arminians wrong, and vice versa.

Witnessing is heralding the truth of the gospel to God's children who are ignorant of the truth of their salvation in Christ Jesus.

I can see now why you are so zealously promoting various pages of DEBATES. Well, I wish you well.

Bill Taylor
I have never seen a lot of value in debates. 

Sing F Lau
Those who desire to learn the truth will go around INQUIRING HUMBLY... till their questions are answered satisfactorily from the Scriptures, with the contradictions and inconsistencies resolved and harmonized.

People go to debate with an entirely different mindset - WAR!

Bill Taylor
Amen.

Sing F Lau
My own experience: between 2000-2003, I began to have increasing questions about the glaring inconsistencies and contradictions in the Calvinistic doctrines popularly embraced by the RBs... but I have no where to get over my nightmare! When I eventually broached the subject with the RBs here, I got the first blow of the RB's magisterial pronouncement "Sing, you have departed from the standard reformed position." It was only downhill from then on... until the 7 RB churches wrote officially to the church I pastor to lodge their formal complaints against my "heresies" and the declaration of non-fellowship.

By the Lord's wonderful providence, "by chance" I came across a little article "When was Paul saved?" [http://www.letgodbetrue.com/questions/paul-salvation.php] someone posted on an email forum. It was the key that unlocked so many of my questions and enabled me to rightly divide the word of truth. It was such a relief and deliverance from the nightmare of inconsistencies and contradictions I had suffered quietly with no help in sight. 

I asked endless questions... to clear all the contradictions and inconsistencies. I was greatly helped by those who responded to my endless questions - among them some like Gene Thomas, and Jonathan Crosby. I debated no one but I did ask a whole lot of questions to learn the truth. Thank God for their faithful teaching.

Sing F Lau
He said, "We only have one life. I want mine to count for the truth."
=====
I have one life only, and I don't want to waste it debating those who have no desire to learn the truth. I dedicate a whole lot of my life teaching those who come inquiring for the truth. In debate EGO and PRIDE prevent men from learning the truth. 

Charles Page
"Ego and pride prevent men from learning the truth." ego and pride in regenerate hearts = stiff-necked, uncircumcised of hearts and ears, always resisting the Holy Ghost.

Sing F Lau
Act 7:51 "Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."
====
And so many think these words were addressed at sinners dead in their trespasses and sins, implying that Stephen expected such to be capable of, and responsible for receiving and believing the things of the Spirit of God. It is like a man rebuking and chastising the dead for refusing to eat the food he so sincerely offered to them!

So many of God's children among the Jews were so unbelieving. See Apostle Paul dealing with that issue in Rom 9-11. 

Charles Page
Elder Hulan Bass!

Bill Taylor
Amen, brother Sing! God's word is written to his children - believers and unbelievers.

What way? Make up your mind, please!

 
Which way exactly?

1Kings 18:21
And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.

Initially posted here:
September 18, 2013
https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/10200641997827853

Read this statement of faith below carefully, and give your thoughts.
Can you rightly divide the several things expressed? Thanks.

" We believe that the work of regeneration, conversion, sanctification, and faith, is not an act of man's free will and power, but of the mighty, efficacious, and irresistible grace of God, through the preaching of the Gospel and the inner work of the Almighty Holy Spirit of God." 
=======

Bill Taylor
The sign says it all. Error is almost always found wearing a thin cloak of truth. In this case, the cloak is too thin to cover! That phrase, "through the preaching of the Gospel" takes the truth expressed in the rest of the statement and completely turns it around to be a non-truth.

Linda Lancaster
Faith has nothing to do with man. It is ALL of God. Faith is a gift. Given by God to us at our point of salvation, which also has nothing to do with man. WHY? Because then it would be credited to man instead of GOD. We have nothing to do with the wonderful gifts of salvation, justification, sanctification. It is ALL BY GOD'S ENABLING POWER IN OUR LIVES CALL GRACE.

Jerry Chapin
I agree, Bro. Bill...the cart is before the horse in this case. If he would have said. "the inner work of the Almighty Holy Spirit of God" first, it would have been correct. The work of God comes first [regeneration], then, the works of man [conversation] through the preaching of the gospel...

Sing F Lau
How if we rightly divide the confused mess???

"We believe that the work of regeneration... is not an act of man's free will and power, but of the mighty, efficacious, and irresistible grace of God alone."

"We believe that the work of conversion, sanctification, and faith is through the preaching of the gospel and the inner work of the Almighty Holy Spirit of God." 

Sing F Lau
The big problem with the reformed folks, who love to call themselves Calvinists, and even the sovereign grace people is basically very simple: they are either incapable of or wilfully refuse to distinguish the eternal salvation by the monergistic activities of the triune God, and the temporal salvation through the synergistic activities of God's children in obedience to their Father's will.

The article of faith above, from a sovereign grace church is a classic example of the confusion.

Chase Harrison
Sounds like they have simply mistaken the gospel call for the effectual call. Replace the phrase "through the preaching of the gospel" with the phrase "through the voice of the Son of God", and then I don't have much of a problem with it anymore.

Joe Chin
so they are saying without preaching, irresistible grace is not so irresistible after all...

Sing F Lau
It is not so much that they mistake the gospel call for the effectual call. They condition the effectual call upon the gospel call!

Chase Harrison
Ah, yes, good point!
They believe the effectual call is always through the gospel call!

Sing F Lau
Just as the sign indicates, the big clockwise turn (of the mighty, efficacious, and irresistible grace of God) is conditioned/dependent upon the little anti-clockwise turn (through the preaching of the gospel AND the inner work of the Almighty Holy Spirit of God.)

Mark Thomas
They utterly fail to understand the simple. Grace and works do not mix. When forced to mix they cannot retain their original meanings and power and are no longer what they once were. Thank God the dilution (delusion) is only in the minds of men and cannot affect the grace of our Sovereign God.

Linda Lancaster
God will use whatever means He likes. He is sovereign. What about those Muslims/anyone for that matter, who have never heard the Word of God through preaching and had divine meetings with our God in their closet? We are trying to box the Sovereign Lord, who does as He pleases. Not as we want Him to.

Sing F Lau
God will use whatsoever means He wills. He is indeed sovereign, and He has sovereignly determined NOT to use any means in the work of regenerating His elect from their state of sin and death. Tooooo many preachers are very unhappy about that. God has sovereignly determined that it is foolish to involve fickle and feeble men in the work of regenerating His elect found in every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.

Foolish and stupid preachers think God needs them and their ministry as means to father His children. I have never seen or heard of a mid-wife who insisted in helping the man father the child she helps to deliver! <LOL> The midwives know their place, deluded preachers don't!

Linda Lancaster
However, God also chooses to use us, infallible people, to further His Kingdom down here on earth. He chooses the 'foolish things of this world' the scripture says.

Linda Lancaster
I agree that He is determined NOT to use man in regeneration. Because then it would be of 'works' again.

Sing F Lau
Oh yes, we need midwives to deliver the lives that has been fathered, the well being of the new lives is dependent upon many means - parenting, etc, etc.

Dellis Layne Worsham Sr.
Some people like to make the preacher look soooo valuable. In one of the churches I attended years ago, every member was judged on how many souls they had won to Christ. I often wondered if God was ever counted as a member.

Sing F Lau
James, YES, I'm saying that God saves His elect apart from the preaching of the gospel.

The preaching of the gospel INFORMS the ALREADY SAVED what the Triune God has done to save them, and calling such to believe the truth of their salvation.

http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2012/09/is-it-alone-or-is-it-alone-some_8280.html

 [James has deleted his several comments!]

Sing F Lau
James, read and consider this short article:   http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2013/08/is-it-freely-by-his-grace-alone-or-is.html

Robert Cook Sr.
Saves his elect?? The (save) under consideration must be defined before a teaching can be put upon it. God does save the elect by the preaching of the Gospel, but this salvation can not be eternal since Christ hath, HATH, hath, reconciled us unto God Having been made sin for us, that we might be made the righteousness in him. So then, this (save) must be something other than eternal, so what could that be? Let's reconnoiter and define. The Gospel is the good NEWS that Christ HATH finished the work, therefore there is now NO condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, Good news does not pay for our sins in the court room of God, at His holy throne, but believing the Gospel does remove the guilt of sin from our consciences and we then have been reconciled to God in our understanding as to where we stand by grace alone. We can only believe if we have ALREADY been born again. natural man receives not the things of the spirit of God.

Robert Cook Sr.
All salvation is of God but all of God's redeemed will not have knowledge of all that God accomplished in Christ here in time. Most men declare a false Gospel and a perversion of the knowledge of God I do not think God sent them to SAVE His elect with a lie! The Gospel pays for no ones sin but it does bring the knowledge of eternal life to all those who believe. Calvinism is a lie just as Arminianism is.

Robert Cook Sr.
Let the bible speak thru the Holy Spirit not John Calvin's Commentary! 

Josiah Lau
Just to interject briefly, I agree with Mr Robert Cook's answer that Mr James Farley's words 'saves the elect' should be first defined before an answer is attempted. Remember our own past confusion about the different phases of salvation. 🙂 (addressed to my dad) 

Sing F Lau
You are right, Josiah.

However, it is certain that Mr Farley's question meant eternal salvation is bestowed through the preaching of the gospel.
(I'm leaving for KL soon... so won't be around till Sat even. I pray that you will have a good meeting tomorrow morning.) 

Josiah Lau
Okay. I'm sure you're more familiar with him and understand his background/current position far better than I do. If you're certain about that then alright. 

Robert Cook Sr.
I think for the edification of all and a reminder as to rightly dividing it is good to always reiterate for those who have been lied to the differences between all words in context not just saved

Robert Cook Sr.
Many ignorant and timid folks read but are afraid to post but can glean from careful explanations. It took me years of study and weeping decades ago to reject the heresy of Arminian theology. 

Robert Cook Sr.
Sing sometimes a man can only see his error when he writes it out or speaks it audibly, I know a preacher who was born and raised in the Arminian teaching and was ordained as such, was preaching a sermon on the same topic 2 Corinthians 5: 18-21 and as he spoke he realized his error, so sometimes patiently drawing out what a man says he believes will help him see the error, after all my goal in my feeble way is to edify not destroy a brother.

Perseverance of the Saints - what it is, and is not

"by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness."

Initially posted here:

September 15, 2014
https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/10202822304654161

It takes just a slight sleight to pervert a biblical truth into a fable...

"by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness."

Paul warns of this reality:

"That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive..."

A man said, “The Calvinist belief in perseverance is not supported by the tenets of TULIP rather a modification of the tenets.”

++++++

My comment:

The above charge is most certainly true:

Under TULIP, the P states and declares the IMMUTABILITY of the effectually called REMAINING in the state of grace to which they have been once effectually called. That is, the divine grace that effectually called them out of their native state of sin and death unto that of grace and salvation is a grace that accomplishes it immutably... the called ones SHALL FOREVER and IMMUTABLY remain in that state of grace... absolutely nothing can undo that!

It says NOTHING about the children of God doing anything, or remaining in a life of faith and holiness, much less anything about the degrees of doing so.

Sing F Lau
"Those whom God hath accepted in the beloved, effectually called and sanctified by His Spirit, and given the precious faith of His elect unto [i.e. the state of grace], can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere THEREIN to the end, and be eternally saved....."

THEREIN refers to the STATE OF GRACE into which they have been called.

It declares the permanency and immutability of remaining in that state of grace - as a result of the divine effectual calling.

Bill Taylor
Amen!

Robert Cook Sr.
excellent picture to tell the story!! 🙂 

Richard-Carol Schilling
Are we saying that Christians don't commit suicide? Psychology in the Church these days gives professing Christians a pass in the case of deep depression! Something doesn't match...

Sing F Lau
R-C S, how is your question related to the subject? What happens when Christians commit suicide?

Richard-Carol Schilling
You say, "His elect unto [i.e. the state of grace], can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere THEREIN to the end" If Perseverance of the saints is true, what position do current day Christians hold with regards suicide? Do we give professing Christians a pass and say, as psychology would interpret, they were suffering a severe depression?

Robert Cook Sr.
Not only can the commit Suicide they can become idolators and fornicators and murders liars etc. etc. etc the old man still has a life also.

Sing F Lau
R-C S, so do you believe a man whom God has effectually called out of his native state of sin and death into that state of grace and salvation, CAN by some foolish acts of his, fall out of that state of grace and salvation back into his native state of sin and death? I'm just asking to know what you do believe. I'm not assuming anything. So, if you are so kind, please answer my simple question. Thanks.

Richard-Carol Schilling
Sir, we asked your opinion first. I am firmly grounded in what I believe the Scriptures teach and will share it with you after you share your point of view.

Sing F Lau
You want my opinion? LOL - what for? My opinion is of no value to you!Every Tom , Hick, and Mary claims he/she is firmly grounded in what he/she believes the Scriptures teach!

 Ante Zivkovic
In Calvinism regeneration is best described through Borg analogy. These are not born again but rather assimilated by Holy spirit and then they grow in holiness , always in an upward spiral and in the process make the bible redundant since the warnings to not apply to them.

Richard-Carol Schilling
Robert Cook, how does your statement: "Not only can the commit Suicide they can become idolators and fornicators and murders liars etc." coincide with " DO NOT BE DECEIVED. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners WILL INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD. And such WERE some of you. But you WERE washed, but you WERE sanctified, but you WERE justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God." (1 Cor. 6:9-11)? What do you say to: " For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God" (Colossians 3:3) We understand it to mean that we are still in the flesh, though a new nature is imparted to the true believer and the old man is dead, not dying, not hanging on to us.

Sing F Lau--we were just curious to know what others on this page thought about the application of a doctrinal point to which you made reference. Our opinion is no better than yours, so what does the Bible teach about the suicide?

Sing F Lau
R-C S @ "" DO NOT BE DECEIVED. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners WILL INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD."
============
THE KINGDOM OF GOD - many read those words to mean THE HEAVEN!!! Paying attention to the distinction between the kingdom of God and the heaven may help in rightly dividing the word of truth.

The application of the doctrinal point to which I made reference is this: nothing a child of God - a man whom God has called out of his native state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation - does or fails to do can ever dislodge him from that state of grace and salvation into which God has called him. Period.

And here is the statement of truth:
3 ¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Ro 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

And yes, it is completely possible for a child of God to foolishly take his own life. And no, a child of God CANNOT undo the work of eternal salvation God has accomplished in/for him. That doesn't mean he can't foolishly mess up his life big time - the Scriptures constantly warn God's children against such.

That's my opinion if it is worth anything to you.

Richard-Carol Schilling
Thank you for sharing your thoughts, Sing F Lau.
It is our turn to share our thoughts on the recent post and comment on suicide among Christians. It has become popular in a day and age of psychology, but the Scriptures should rather be our source of authority on this matter, so I will share a few Scriptures to back our position.

"By which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you BELIEVED IN VAIN." (1 Corinthians 15:2)

"For we have become partakers of Christ IF we hold the beginning of our CONFIDENCE STEDFAST TO THE END," (Hebrews 3:14)

 "who are kept by the power of God THROUGH FAITH for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1 Peter 1:5)

 "These all died IN FAITH, not having received the promises..." (Hebrews 11:13)

WITHOUT FAITH it is impossible to please Him... (hebrews 11:6)

“But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? ALL THE RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH HE HAS DONE SHALL NOT BE REMEMBERED; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die...When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies." (Ezekiel 18:24, 26)

Suicide is not only selfish, but for one professing to be a Christian, it is the ultimate despairing of FAITH in God's veracity and His unfailing promises. Can anyone see perseverance t o the end here? What does perseverance of the saints mean? Are we just intellectualizing or pontificating on this page? What is the application of that doctrine to the Christian walk or life?

"No temptation (not even suicide) has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but (FIRST) God is faithful, who WILL NOT ALLOW YOU TO BE TEMPTED ABOVE WHAT YOU ARE ABLE, but (SECOND) with the temptation WILL ALSO MAKE THE WAY OF ESCAPE, that you may be able to bear it." (1 Corinthians 10:13)

There are multitudes of false professors out there. This is the background from which we both have come and are grieved at the lowering of the standards in the church to make everyone feel good about themselves while they live in sin!

For this you know, that NO fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. (Ephesians 5:5)

Richard-Carol Schilling
Thank you for the opportunity to share...

 Sing F Lau
No thanks to your RANTING!
The devil can quote Scriptures quite well too but he can hardly rightly divide the word of truth.

Richard-Carol Schilling
Gad, can weigh in on this?

Charles Church
I've had to think about this quite a bit, mainly because I'm not sure what Mr. Lau is saying. So I'll approach it this way if I may.... Mr. Lau, IF you are saying that sanctification is not something guaranteed to the children of God, if you are saying that it cannot be a necessary consequence of justification, and may be there or may not be, then IF you are saying that, I would aver that that is a wicked heresy of the highest order.

 The salvation which the Scriptures reveal is a salvation not just from the judgment of sin, but from the power of sin. The former by justification, and the latter by sanctification, and both of those departments of "subjective soteriology" are things overtly and expressly guranteed to each believer in Jesus. "Of HIM are ye in Christ Jesus, who OF GOD is made unto us wisdom, righteousness, SANCTIFICATION and redemption, that no flesh should glory in his presence, but as it is written, he that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord". ICor.1:30-31.

So IF I understand you rightly you are saying that these blessings of salvation which this verse of inspired scripture teach us are dependent only upon the purpose of God given to EACH believer, are in fact dependent upon men. True believers may certainly sin, and their sin will not condemn them when they do. But how does this translate into no sanctification? No deliverance from the POWER of sin? True Complete deliverance comes in the resurrection. But none of that changes this verse. Nor does it change a great host of others, such as ...

ICor.6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Eph. 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

Gal.5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Charles Church
I would hasten to add, however, that I guess I am going to have to dissent from your view, Richard, that suicide necessarily means that one is lost. I do believe there is such a thing as actions for which people are not responsible. Like if someone gets an infection in his brain and starts raving and commits some sin in the process who was never known for such behavior ever. I have been around enough depression to have the opinion that depression is a disease of the brain, and is a malfunction no different than having a broken leg, and that accordingly we would not more ascribe the blame to such a person's failures as equal to those of others, than we would say a man was at falut for not helping an imperiled friend when he was paralyzed. Now.... that appeals to experience, and that is certainly no safe measure. And there IS this scripture: "We know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him". But as we know from a hundred other instances, not all killing is murder, and a host of factors have to be present in order for it to constitute this criminal character. I hope this will not grieve you, but I'm just trying to be transparent. The principle you defend I could not agree with more, as I'm sure you will see from above.

Sing F Lau
hello Gad, if you cannot distinguish the kingdom of God from the eternal heaven, it is best to speak cautiously. Thanks.

Charles Church
Well..... I'm not even sure I've properly understood you yet, Sing, and that may just be my own dullness, or perhaps your commentary is a bit unclear. And again... I don't really understand what you mean by distinguishing between the kingdom of God and the "eternal heavens". One thing that I know for sure... those who won't repent go to hell. "Except ye repent, ye shall ALL likewise perish".

Sing F Lau
Charles Church, "Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish..."
------
Soundbytitis is a dread disease. It cripples men's ability of rightly dividing the word of truth to get the sense.

13:1 ¶ There were present at that season some that told him of the Galileans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galileans were sinners above all the Galileans, because they suffered such things? 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Did you note the word LIKEWISE... LIKEWISE... LIKEWISE. How did the Galileans perish? They perish by suffering BLOODY and CRUEL death. That's the destruction spoken of. It has nothing about gaining eternal life or perishing to hell. And it is pretty plain that only that who are ALREADY BEEN GIVEN eternal life that are able to believe.

But almost every one believes that this passage speaks about eternal salvation or eternal destruction! All blind leading the blind!

 Luke 13:1-5 speaks of perishing in calamities, not about perishing in eternal hell. People perished in disasters. The Jews were warned that they would LIKEWISE perish if they repent not. Christ was warning them that they would LIKEWISE - LIKEWISE - LIKEWISE perish under the hands of the Romans in the coming destruction of Jerusalem. If they do believe, then they would take heed of Christ's warning about the impending destruction coming upon Jerusalem in 70AD!

Effectual Call is NOT Regeneration

September 3, 2012
https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/3674767583274

VERY many equate effectual call as regeneration. That's a BIG mistake.
And it is so hard for them to see the difference. The exchanges below is an example.

"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him." ~~ Leo Tolstoy ~~

 The old school baptists summarized the Scriptures teaching on the effectual call in this manner:
"Those whom God hath predestined unto life, He is pleased in His appointed and accepted time, effectually to call, by His Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh: renewing their wills, and by His almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by His grace." 1689.10.1 CoF

 To call a man out of his native state of SIN and DEATH to that state of GRACE and SALVATION requires FAR more than regeneration. If you don't get this point, then there is a big problem indeed!

A biblical distinction is the essence of sound theology. Think about it.

Edmund Lau Kok Ming
So true, Bro Sing. So true. 🙂

Ce'Phas Lee
Agree!

Cheri Thomas
you know, it makes me think of prickly pears. is this a cactus? does it have thorns? surely it is at the very least a succulent....

Sing F Lau
The effectual call needs very succulent grace SISTAH!!!

Cheri Thomas
(I was all distracted and absorbed by the picture... LOL!!)

Sing F Lau
"The dragon fruit the scientific name is Hylocereus from the family cactaceae."
It is a cactus.

Cheri Thomas
I KNEW IT! heehee! Thank you Sing!

Jorge Quierrez Jr.
Far more than? so what is that?

Sing F Lau
Jorge Quierrez Jr.,
What divine activities are required to bring an elect OUT OF his native state of sin and death INTO that state of grace and salvation?

If you answer that adequately, you will answer your own question. I learn by asking questions. Once in a while I also teach by asking questions. Interested students will learn better that way.

Jorge Quierrez Jr.
So what is the difference between effectual call and regeneration?
Or the distinction of the term?

Sing F Lau
The effectual call is the divine activity that brings an elect out of his native state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation.

What divine activities are needed to accomplish that?
Regeneration is the divine activity of quickening an elect out of his spiritual death to that of spiritual life.

Jorge Quierrez Jr.
In your explanation that two terms are different?
Effectual call first then regeneration?

Sing F Lau
No, it is not effectual call first and then regeneration.
Regeneration is subsumed in the effectual calling.

The effectual call BRINGS an elect OUT OF his native state of sin and death INTO the state of grace and salvation. To bring an elect OUT OF his native state of sins and death INTO the state of grace and salvation REQUIRES these distinct divine activities:
- justification: the righteousness of Christ is applied to an elect personally; this deals with the native state of condemnation.
- regeneration, this deals with the state of spiritual death.
- adoption: that which is regenerated is adopted and sealed with the Spirit of adoption.

Without these distinct divine activities - which happen simultaneously but in that logical order - an elect is NOT brought out of his native state of sin and death to that state of grace and salvation.

Jorge Quierrez Jr.
Ummm let me think and study. Let me ask again a question.
Effectual call and regeneration are the work of the Spirit alone?

Jorge Quierrez Jr.
In your explanation, is the same, for me in my understanding.

Sing F Lau
Variously attributed to ALL the three Persons of the Triune God.
Born of God... John 1:13.
The Spirit regenerates... John 3
Jesus gives life... John 10

Jorge Quierrez Jr.
Where is the effectual call?

Jorge Quierrez Jr.
Here is ur point? God calls (effectual call) to regenerates (born from above, giving life?)

Sing F Lau
Jorge, you asked, “where is the effectual call?”
In the Scriptures!
My point - the effectual call to grace and salvation REQUIRES more than regeneration. Do you get that simple point?

It seems you are too fixated at the popular idea that effectual call EQUALS regeneration, that called of God equals born of God.
So, it is hard for you to see beyond that.

Jorge Quierrez Jr.
I ask u a legit question, there is a question mark.
U always said "effectual call is FAR MORE THAN REGENERATION, so what is that? Where in the Scriptures?

Jorge Quierrez Jr.
If it is not equal, who said that? Old Baptist? Where? PB?

Sing F Lau
Q. Where is the effectual call?
A. In the Scriptures.
Q. Here is ur point?
A. My point - the effectual call to grace and salvation REQUIRES more than regeneration.

Ask further if I have missed your questions. I did sincerely answer them.

Sing F Lau
Does regeneration alone bring an elect out of his native state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation in Jesus Christ?

Jorge Quierrez Jr.
How a man or elect be born again? 

Jorge Quierrez Jr.
In Regeneration, needs A Divine life and divine Voice to call the dead elect sinners

Jorge Quierrez Jr.
If Regeneration is not enough to bring an elect out of his native state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation, what is that? Effectual call and Regeneration?

Jorge Quierrez Jr.
That's only a term problem, i think

Sing F Lau
A man in his native state of sin and death is a man under condemnation, death, and alienation. To bring him out of that state, those issues must be dealt with. Get the point?

Jorge Quierrez Jr.
Yea i got ur point. thanks for ur time

Jorge Quierrez Jr.
… them He also called Rom.8:30

Sing F Lau
A term problem? Then you haven't understood the vast difference!
Like many dismiss the vast difference between justification by the faith of Christ Jesus and justification by the faith in Christ Jesus as a term problem too?
"Mere semantic" is always a convenient way to dismiss an issue.  

Jorge Quierrez Jr.
In Regeneration, God calls the elect sinners, what Far more than that?

Sing F Lau
Do you know why in Rom 8:30 nothing is said about regeneration and adoption?

Jorge Quierrez Jr.
I think u split the hair, have a nice convo

Sing F Lau
🙂. That's a great way to dismiss a matter.
Have a good day.

Jorge Quierrez Jr.
Thanks, brother Sing F Lau for ur time

Jorge Quierrez Jr.
U are not Far in the kingdom. Lol

Aaron Milyard
Lazarus comes forth. Effectual call, then regeneration. Both were necessary. Lazarus could not regenerate himself nor could he tell himself to be made alive.

Sing F Lau
U are not Far in the kingdom. Lol
-----------
Not far from your Primitive Baptist Kingdom; BUT already in the kingdom of Christ.

Sing F Lau
The Old School Baptists declared the distinction between the effectual call and regeneration in their Confession of Faith...

"They who are united to Christ, effectually called, and regenerated, having a new heart and a new spirit created in them through the virtue of Christ's death and resurrection..." 1689.13.1

"... effectually called, AND regenerated..."

Jorge Quierrez Jr.
Where in the scriptures?

Sing F Lau
You have made up your mind, so waste not your time. Go your way. May the Lord bless you. You are a great PB convert.

Sing F Lau
Here is ur point? God calls (effectual call) to regenerates (born from above, giving life?)
----------
God calls to EFFECTUALLY BRING an elect out of his native state of condemnation, death, and alienation into that state of grace and salvation in Jesus Christ. Get the point?

 p/s Your regeneration deals with the native state of death ONLY. Regeneration quickens the dead, dealing with the native state of death.

The biblical effectual call deals with the native state of condemnation, death, and alienation; NOT ONLY the native state of death BUT ALSO the state of condemnation and alienation. Condemnation is dealt with in vital justification by God’s free grace, and alienation is dealt with by the adoption into the family of God.