March 6, 2015
Initial exchanges from this FB post here:
https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/10215852404558515
Initial exchanges from this FB post here:
https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/10215852404558515
Isa 1:18
Come now, and let us reason together... on
this question posed by an RB brother:
"When does the imputation of God's
righteousness occur for the elect?"
(This is a rhetorical question, the presumed answer is when the elect believe!)
Let me answer briefly
The question presupposes a few things:
- There is God, and He has an elect people.
- There is God's righteousness, i.e.
righteousness of God's own provision through the redemptive work of His Son
Jesus Christ, for His elect.
- That righteousness of God is imputed to His
elect.
- The question is framed in the simple
present tense, and thus, presupposes a DENIAL (at worst) or IGNORANCE (at best)
of the completed reality of that imputation. [If I were to ask the question, it
would be, "When DID ....?" So don't let the simple present tense of
the question MISLEAD or DECEIVE you!]
The question begs some questions if it is to
be answered rightly:
- What is meant by "imputation"?
- Did the imputation of God's righteousness
to the elect occur collectively, i.e. one-single Divine act of imputation to
all the elect together at a single point in time; or individually, i.e.
individual acts of imputation to each elect individually at different points of
time all throughout history? If you don't understand this question, please
inquire to understand. Rule 1: don't dispute when you don't yet understand.]
- How did God impute His righteousness to the
elect (apart from whether collectively or individually) , i.e. is it imputed
freely, or upon some conditions met by the elect?
And one related question you may wish to
consider:
When were your sins IMPUTED to Christ?
I assume you do believe that truth, i.e. the
imputation of your sins to Christ. Thanks.
Maybe these few thoughts can help us in
arriving at the truth without much ado. If you have the ability to reason,
come. Enjoy some Chinese pink tea, and we can reason, on this important matter.
Come now, and let us reason together!
Ante
I have trouble understanding vital and legal
justification. Eph 4:24 and Rom 5:18-19. As I see it justification was
accomplished at the cross but righteousness was imputed in the new birth. Adams
Sin was imputed at our conception. If we are righteous from eternity, then
that, In my opinion, renders regeneration redundant in a way.
Sing
You cannot have justification without the
imputation of righteousness! So once you concede that the justification took
place at the cross, the righteousness WAS also imputed. The imputed
righteousness was APPLIED at effectual calling out of the native state of sin
and death to that of grace and salvation in Christ Jesus.
Ante
I thought about that as well. What was
accomplished at the cross?
Sing
What was accomplished at the cross?
======
Ro 4:25 "Who was delivered for our
offences, and was raised again for our justification."
Ro 5:18 "Therefore as by the offence of
one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of
one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."
The hymn-writer of "One day when
heaven..." knew the truth:
Living, He loved me; dying, He saved me;
Buried, He carried my sins far away;
Rising, He justified freely forever:
One day He’s coming—O glorious day!
Rising, He JUSTIFIED FREELY forever!
Sing
What was accomplished at the cross?
=====
1. One thing is almost certain: ALL the sins
of ALL the elect of God were IMPUTED to Christ, YES, even including all the
sins of all the elect that were not even conceived yet.
2. Just as certain, Christ Jesus - the
redeemer of all those were given to Him by the Father - suffered and endured
the divine curse of all those sins in the place of His people, and made
complete satisfaction of the wages of sins owed by ALL of His elect.
Equally certain, there are misguided
Christian who believe that their sins were imputed to Christ ONLY when they
believed in Jesus Christ. They don't realize that any sin imputed to Christ
POST/AFTER the death-and-resurrection event would be tooooooooooooooooooooooo
late!
If a man's sins are not INCLUDED (by legal
imputation to Christ) in the one-offering of Christ of Himself for sin, there
is NO MORE atonement for those sins. He MISSED the one Sin-Ship! The Ship has
left the harbour, never to return for more sins! The one Train that carried
away sin has left the platform!
There is no more a second, or a third, or a
fourth offering of Christ for sins at the WHIM and FANCY of some stupid
(i.e.lacking common sense - not a derogatory term in any way, but an objective
adjective!) people.
Silly misguided children of God DOOOOOOOOO
believe fables that are so injurious to themselves! They think Christ is at
their beckoning! Not surprising at all because they the mighty ones ACCEPTED a
poor Jesus who begged at their doors for their ACCEPTANCE of Him! They have
been sold a poor and pathetic Jesus! So they end up with this fable that it is
they we who decide when to surrender their sins to be imputed to Christ when
they believe in Christ!
3. Just as certain, double imputations took
place at the cross, i.e.
- The sins of all His elect were imputed to
Christ, and Christ rendered full and perfect satisfaction for all of them. That
is why not one iota of sin was able to hold Him in the grave!
- The righteousness of Christ, from His life
of perfect and sinless obedience to God, was imputed to all His elect.
Ante
So what was imputed to elect on the cross and
what was imputed to the elect in regeneration?
Sing
The righteousness of Christ that was LEGALLY
IMPUTED to ALL Christ's elect is the same righteousness that is APPLIED to each
individual elect PERSONALLY at effectual calling out of his native state of sin
and death to that of grace and salvation.
In the effectual calling an elect out of his
native state of sin and death, the righteousness that HAS BEEN LEGALLY IMPUTED
is now VITALLY APPLIED to him - thus vital/personal justification (what was
merely LEGAL is now become PERSONAL), thus giving divine warrant for the Holy
Spirit's work of regeneration the one to whom righteousness HAS BEEN APPLIED.
The regenerated is ADOPTED into the family, bestowed with the gift of the
SPirit of adoption.
All the above DIVINE activities are NECESSARY
to bring an elect out of his native state of sin and death to that of grace and
salvation in Christ Jesus.
DO I make sense? Is your good question
answered?
Ante
What is the difference between application
and imputation? They both sound personal. One could even interchange these
terms. The only way I can reconcile the two is that in legal justification we
are declared righteous on account of Jesus life and death and forgiven, but we
haven's been given righteous nature fit for heaven yet. In regeneration, we
become actually and truly righteous in reality, not just viewed as such.
Sing
What is the difference between application
and imputation?
=============
That's a good question, and if this had been
understood from the very beginning, it would have obviated much confusion.
Imputation of righteousness is an act of
legal accounting and does not require or involve the personal existence of the
persons involved in the execution of imputation. Application of righteousness
requires the personal existence of the persons involved as the personal
recipient of the same.
Adam's sin was imputed to the account of all
represented by him at the fall. All represented by him did not have personal
existence yet; but they existed as legal entities in the mind of God,
represented by Adam, by virtue of the decree of creation.
Rom 5:12
¶Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into
the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all
have sinned:
Rom 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment
came upon all men to condemnation; EVEN SO by the righteousness of one, the
free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
By Adam, the judgment of condemnation unto
death CAME upon all men, i.e. all men represented by Adam, the whole human
race!
By one man Adam:
- sin ENTERED the world, the whole world
represented by him.
- sin brings death, and that death PASSED
upon all men.
- How is that possible? BY LEGAL IMPUTATION.
- On what ground? Adam was appointed the
representative head.
- The sin of Adam was IMPUTED, LEGALLY
accounted to all represented by Adam, even though none of them personally
existed yet.
EVEN SO... EVEN SO... EVEN SO...Rom 5:18...
in the exact same manner was the imputation of Christ's righteousness to all
represented by Him.
The imputed sin of Adam takes effect
IMMEDIATELY, is APPLIED to each of all he represented, at their coming into
being, i.e at their conception, whether in the womb or in a test-tube. Each is
conceived in sin, under the condemnation of sin and death; on account of the
imputed sin of Adam.
The imputed righteousness of Christ takes
effect IMMEDIATELY, i.e., is APPLIED to each Christ represented, at their
coming into a spiritual being, i.e. at their effectual calling unto grace and
salvation in Jesus Christ, at God's own appointed and accepted time.
A man conceived and born in sin will soon
experience the condemnation of that sin when he commits acts of sin.
A man regenerated in Christ will soon
experience the justification of righteousness through his acts of obedience to
the gospel.
Does this help?
Ante
So what is the relationship between God and
unregenerated elect? Are they righteous?
Sing
I assume you have understood the previous comment
on what is the difference between the imputation and application of
righteousness.
Let me add this:
By the act of the imputation of
righteousness, righteousness becomes legally yours.
By the act of the application of
righteousness to your personally, righteousness which was only LEGALLY yours
become yours PERSONALLY.
The former is legal justification by the
cross, the blood, and the faith, of Jesus Christ.
The latter is vital justification by the free
grace of God.
The former speaks of the GROUND of legal
justification, the basis of Christ's righteousness.
The latter speaks of the manner of
justification, the manner righteousness was applied.
Faith in Jesus Christ is the means to
manifest and experience the blessedness of that justified state.
Sing
So what is the relationship between God and
unregenerated elect? Are they righteous?
=========
Understanding the 5 distinct phases of
salvation will help us to give an adequate answer to this question.
Each facet defines the relationship in its
own context.
Is the unregenerated elect righteous?
- Decretally, YES. God has purposed their
justification.
- Legally, YES. Christ's righteousness
already imputed to all the elect.
- Vitally/personally, YES, if already
effectually called out of the state of sin and death. Otherwise, NO.
- Yes, practically if already converted
gospelly; justified by faith.
- Yes, perfectly and wholly, when resurrected
onto glorification.
Ante
I will ruminate on what you wrote but I still
have trouble understanding the real difference between legal and vital
justification and their relationship to each other as well as our relationship
to God, especially of those who are legally justified but not yet vitally
justified. Why is vital justification even necessary?
Sing
Maybe a simple illustration will help.
A huge sum of redemption money was imputed to
your account.
You are sitting in jail, a bankrupt criminal.
That imputed money in your account is of NO
USE to you unless it is withdrawn, and applied to you personally, for your
redemption from the prison by clearing all your debts.
And when the price has been applied, your
sentence in jail has been cancelled.
Then a messenger was sent to bring the good news
for you.
If you believe the good news, you will walk
out of prison.
If you don't believe you will continue to sit
in prison, EVEN though the price of release has been APPLIED to you personally.
Does it help?
Leaving for evening service.
