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| Parroting and regurgitation is easy. |
Read the exchanges here
August 12, 2010 Penang ·
One Mr.Trevor Christian Johnson (likely a Reformed Baptist) declares thus,
"You err greatly regarding this point, believing that it is possible for the Elect to be already regenerate or justified chronologically prior to exercising faith."
I have invited him to continue the discussion here. Perhaps we can learn something from him. Those who can stick to the issue at hand are welcome to leave their comments. Don't stray, please.
Mark Mull
Those that "received Him" (Jn. 1:12) were those "which WERE BORN, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, but of God:" v 13.
Those that "received Him" (Jn. 1:12) were those "which WERE BORN, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, but of God:" v 13.
Trevor Christian Johnson
[Trevor quoted [parroted] an RB theologian, Noel Espinosa, principal of a Ministerial Academy in the Philippines.]
The truth about faith and justification:
[Trevor quoted [parroted] an RB theologian, Noel Espinosa, principal of a Ministerial Academy in the Philippines.]
The truth about faith and justification:
The Elect are justified by or through faith (Rom. 1:17; 3:25, 28, 30; 5:1; Gal. 2:16; 3:11, 24; Eph. 2:8; Phil 3:9).
Faith is not the reason or ultimate grounds for the Elect’s justification. We are not saved because of our faith or on the grounds of their faith, as if we can produce a certain sufficient measure of this substance from within ourselves which God would then honor and allow us into heaven. This would be to make faith a meritorious act and our work of producing enough faith of sufficient quality to be a work of righteousness able to commend us before God. This would be yet another form of works-righteousness.
However, though we are not saved because of our faith, faith is the instrument through which God’s Elect are united to Christ. The expressions are thus—dia pisteos, ek pisteos, and pistei (dative). Dia pisteos can be translated as “by means of” or “through” faith.
Faith is the instrument which lays hold of Jesus. God, through free grace, enables a person to believe. It is a gift of grace, yet God does not believe for the man; the man must believe.
Ek pisteos (“from,” “out of” or “by faith”) describes faith as that which logically precedes a person’s justification. It “describes faith as the occasion of justification, though never as the efficient or ultimate cause of justification.
The dative use of the noun pistis is used in an instrumental sense (cf. Rom. 3:28). Faith is not an agent (i.e. an efficient cause), but it is an instrument (i.e. a means) of justification.
You err greatly regarding this point, believing that it is possible for the Elect to be already regenerate or justified chronologically prior to exercising faith.
Trevor Christian Johnson
There are not regenerated people walking around that lack faith. A logical priority does not necessarily entail a chronological gap between "the steps."
There are not regenerated people walking around that lack faith. A logical priority does not necessarily entail a chronological gap between "the steps."
Sing F Lau
Trevor@ "The truth about faith and justification..."
Trevor, you quoted the whole comment from Noel's critique of my view of justification. I have answered him as he deserved here: https://pruning-deformed-branches.blogspot.my/2008/01/response-to-...noels-critique.html
Take a look, and learn about the typical confusion and obtuseness of Calvinists who cannot distinguish between justification by God's free grace as the cause, and the justification that is by faith, the believing act of a child of God, as the effect. (See here for the many reasons to justify that kind charge - https://things-new-and-old.blogspot.my/2010/08/calvinists-are-confused-as-well-as.html
The Calvinists have mistaken the latter for the former, and do not have the slightest idea of the proper place of the former.
That's the gist of the dispute.
Sing F Lau
The Elect are justified by or through faith (Rom. 1:17; 3:25, 28, 30; 5:1; Gal. 2:16; 3:11, 24; Eph. 2:8; Phil 3:9).
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Could someone begin to exegete the above passages to show WHETHER they teach that the elect is justified BEFORE God by or through their faith, their act of believing?
I am off to bed. It is 1.16am. Happy commenting, exegeting and reading!
Keep to the subject, please. Strayers shall be shot - with a water pistol!
Sing F Lau
Trevor @ "You err greatly regarding this point, believing that it is possible for the Elect to be already regenerate or justified chronologically prior to exercising faith"
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Putting it another way, Trevor takes the as biblical truth that believing (exercising faith) is CHRONOLOGICALLY PRIOR to being regenerated by the Spirit of God as well as being justified before God.
Trevor, could you please affirm this if I have represented you correctly. I just want to make sure that I do understand you so that I know what the exact issue involved.
Michael Gowens
"A logical priority does not necessarily entail a chronological gap between 'the steps'." I would be interested in an example or illustration of this hypothesis.
Sing F Lau
The Elect are justified by or through faith (Rom. 1:17; 3:25, 28, 30; 5:1; Gal. 2:16; 3:11, 24; Eph. 2:8; Phil 3:9) - (Noel Espinosa, principal of the RB ministerial academy in the Philippines) quoted by Trevor to demonstrate his assertion ..."
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Let me take the first passage, Rom 1:17.
"16 ¶ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith."
Probably the part specifically intended is "The just shall live by faith." But we will look at the whole verse, as well as verse 16.
Why would anyone pick this passage to prove the notion "the elect are justified by or through faith" is a very bizarre thing. This passage proves the VERY opposite... that ONLY the justified are able to believe!
For verse 16 - why is apostle Paul not ashamed of the gospel of Christ? What is the gospel of Christ? The gospel of Christ is the good news of the glorious work of eternal redemption that Jesus Christ has secured for all those whom God the Father had given to Him. It is the news of what has happened, even the eternal redemption that HAS BEEN ACCOMPLISHED by the power of God through His Son Jesus Christ.
And why isn't he ashamed of the gospel? The simple answer is: the gospel is GUARANTEED of reception by some. Who are they?
"Every one that believeth" is a present active PARTICIPLE, meaning "every believing one." Therefore, what Paul is saying is this, "for the gospel is the message that speaks of the power of God to every believing ones." He is saying exactly what he is saying in 1Cor 1:18, "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."
And to those that ARE SAVED, they shall perceive and receive the gospel as the good news that declares the power of God in saving them.
Apostle Paul is not ashamed of the gospel, but all ready to preach it BECAUSE it is NOT ONLY a glorious message of the eternal redemption that has been accomplished, it is ALSO a message GUARANTEED of reception by those for which it is INTENDED. There are BELIEVING ONES out there, there are the SAVED ONES among the Jews as well as the Gentiles, who will perceive and receive the gospel as the message declaring the power of God in saving them.
Where do the believing ones come from? That's a separate question. Will continue later.
Trevor Christian Johnson
Verses against Spirit Alone Regeneration:
'Ye are clean through the word I have spoken to you, John 15:3
Of his own will begot he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of first-fruits of his creatures.—James 1:18.
"...we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you because our gospel came to you not only in word but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction." (1 Thess 1:4, 5)
Sing F Lau
Let me continue.
Where do the believing ones come from?
The simple answer is this: "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." (As an aside, it is obtuseness in the extreme, that preachers reading this plain declaration are OBLIVIOUS to the fact that they are ABSOLUTELY excluded in the work of regeneration. What do you call a farmer who insists that he must be on his farm in order for the wind to blow and do its work?)
Back to the question - these were elect, who were dead in their trespasses and sins, but were effectually called out of their state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation by God's free and sovereign grace at His appointed and approved time - without the aid of the gospel ministry nor the time determined by the preachers.
That is how they - the believing ones, them that are saved - came about, by the free and sovereign and direct activities of God. These are there first by the free and sovereign grace of God; then the gospel is brought to them. The gospel is intended and sent for them ALONE.
Them that are saved and the 'believing ones are there first, and the gospel is brought to them.
The gospel ministry was sent to make disciples out of God's children; it was never intended as a means to help God make His children! But so many deluded preachers believe so sincerely that their role is to help God make His children! They are just like the silly deluded midwives who insist that they were instrumental in the conception of lives that they helped delivered!
Sing F Lau
Trevor@" 'Ye are clean through the word I have spoken to you, John 15:3"
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You use this passage to refute Spirit alone regeneration??????
You use this passage for Gospel regeneration?
But there is no regeneration here! Regeneration is quickening the dead! But Jesus speaks of CLEANSING... cleansing out the dirt and dross that hinder fruit bearing.
We clean the dead for burial!
We cleanse the living by the words of instruction that they may stay healthy and fruitful. And that what Christ meant in the context!
I do expect a doctoral candidate to do better (please don't say I am getting personal, I am not). I hope this is a reasonable expectation. Whatever, continue in the discussion.
Trevor Christian Johnson
It is a Hardshell Baptist error to (1) separate regeneration and conversion as two chronologically distant events, and to (2) assert "spirit alone regeneration" without the instrumentality of the Word of God.
First, there are no already-regenerate folks walking around that only are yet to discover their Election. We are described as "children of wrath, even as others" in Ephesians before laying hold on Christ through faith.
---Where is there a case of regeneration without conversion in the Bible?
---Where is there a case in the Bible of an impenitent believer?
.....Or of a faithless believer?
[stupid: how can a believer be impenitent and faithless at the same time? You mean where is the case of a child of God, a regenerated elect, in the Bible who unbelieving?” sing]
[stupid: how can a believer be impenitent and faithless at the same time? You mean where is the case of a child of God, a regenerated elect, in the Bible who unbelieving?” sing]
Second, the Bible everywhere speaks of the instrumentality of the Word of God.
'Ye are clean through the word I have spoken to you, John 15:3
Of his own will begot he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of first-fruits of his creatures.—James 1:18.
"...we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you because our gospel came to you not only in word but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction." (1 Thess 1:4, 5)
Sing F Lau
Trevor@ It is a(n).... error to (1) separate regeneration and conversion as two chronologically distant events, and to (2) assert "spirit alone regeneration" without the instrumentality of the Word of God." (I deleted the 'Hardshell baptists' because it is not relevant here.)
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Trevor, please deal with these questions:
(1). You would agree that Abraham occupies a very central place in the Bible. Please tell me when was Abraham regenerated, and when was he converted.
- Was Abraham a regenerated (and justified of course, for it is absolutely immoral to say that an unjustified man, therefore under the condemnation of death, can be regenerated at the same the time) before his conversion experience in Gen 15:1-6.
2. You would agree that Cornelius, a Gentile occupies a very prominent place in the gospel dispensation:
- Was Cornelius a regenerated (and justified by God's free grace) man before his conversion experience through the preaching of Peter at his home?
- Please don't quote Acts 11:14, because I didn't ask whether Cornelius was 'saved'. You quoted that before, and I asked you further questions.
The salvation that comes through justification by God's free grace (in distinction from justification through the believing act of man) and regeneration is DISTINCT and DIFFERENT from the salvation that comes through hearing and believing the word of God.
The salvation given by God's free grace that ENABLES a man to hear and believe the gospel truth, and the salvation that comes by the hearing and believing the gospel are toe distinct and different salvation. The former is monergistic, entirely by God's free grace; the latter is synergistic, by the obedience responses of God's children to God's will for them.
I put it to you that both Abraham and Cornelius, and host of other examples in the Scriptures demolish the idea that
(1) regeneration and conversion are simultaneous, and that (2) regeneration is through the instrumentality of the gospel ministry.
Sing F Lau
Trevor, consider this.
Trevor, consider this.
Apostle Paul said, " For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which ARE SAVED it is the power of God."
The preaching of the gospel comes to two categories of people: those that are perishing, and those that ARE SAVED.
The gospel is brought to those that ARE SAVED - saved by God's free and sovereign grace with ETERNAL salvation. Them that ARE SAVED are there first, they EXISTED FIRST before the gospel arrive. The gospel comes to them that ARE SAVED. God has effectually called them out of the state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation. Get the point?
Hearing and believing the gospel ALSO saves - but saves in an ENTIRELY different sense... the gospel saves them that ARE SAVED (by God) from ignorance and error and darkness, and enlightens them and make them wise unto their eternal salvation by God's free and sovereign grace.
The gospel truth instructs them to live godly, soberly and righteously, saving them from the temporal effects of sins in this life. The gospel truth arms and equips THEM THAT ARE SAVED to work out their own salvation with fear and trembling.
That's the salvation spoken of in Acts 11:14.
Sing F Lau
Richard, you may be interested to know that some KJT-only folks that are HARDCORE free-willers and faith-based religion!
I embraced the KJT CHIEFLY because of "the faith OF - OF - OF Christ" faithfully translated.
Modern versions are centred on man's faith IN - IN - IN Christ!
[Richard has deleted some of is comments]
Sing F Lau
Here is Rom 1:17 -
"17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith."
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For in the gospel - the good news of what God has done to save for Himself a people through His Son Jesus Christ - is the righteousness of God revealed.
'The righteousness of God' is at the heart of the gospel, it refers God's provision of righteousness for the eternal redemption of His people, who do not have any righteousness of their own.
Sin brings condemnation. Salvation requires righteousness.
Sin is the transgression of God's law. Righteousness is obedience to God's law.
The righteousness that is prerequisite to eternal salvation is EITHER by man's own obedience to God's law or by Christ's obedience to the same law.
The righteousness of God's provision is through Christ's faithful obedient to the law. The righteousness of God's provision is through the faith OF - OF - OF Christ, i.e. His faithfulness in rendering perfect and complete obedience to the law of God. It is not through man's faith IN - IN - IN Christ.
Here is the plain declaration of the truth just stated:
" 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of [ OF - OF - OF - OF - OF] Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference."
Justification requires righteousness - either by man's deeds of keeping the law or by Christ deeds of keeping the law. It is through Christ's FAITHFULNESS of keeping the law that the righteousness necessary for the salvation of the elect is provided.
Sing F Lau
This righteousness of God's provision through the faith OF Christ is revealed in the preaching of the gospel from faith to faith... THAT IS, from the believing preacher to those whom God the Spirit has worked the saving grace of faith in their heart...
From the believing preacher of the gospel to them that are the believing ones.
It is from faith to FAITH - to those already justified and regenerated and adopted, indwelt with the Spirit of God, who worked the grace of faith in them.
ONLY to such is the righteousness of God capable of being revealed to. The spiritual things of the gospel is INCAPABLE of being revealed to those still dead in trespasses and sins!
It is 'from faith to faith.'
It is NOT - NOT - NOT 'from faith to them that are perishing.'
It is 'from faith to them that are saved, the believing ones.'
Is there anything plainer than this!
So many think the preaching of the gospel is the believing preaching revealing the righteousness of God's provision to those who are DEAD in their trespasses and sins, and God blesses their preaching as the means to regenerate the dead, and bring them to conversion. How deluded!
Paul declares of his ministry as 'from faith to faith.'
Sing F Lau
Ok, now those few words that are most twisted and perverted by those who hold on to the lies of 'justification before God by or through faith.'
Why? Just look at these few words: "The just shall live by faith."
Who are the 'just'? 'Just' is an adjectival noun, those that are justified, i.e. the justified ones, justified by the free and sovereign grace of when they were in the state of condemnation and death.
Who is able to live by faith? Who is able to believe the gospel? The JUSTIFIED ones, of course! Who else? Those that are not justified by God are still under the condemnation of death! How could such ever hear and believe the gospel and live by faith? How, pray tell!
The glorious declaration "the just shall live by faith" - declaring a truth about the justified, that they shall live by faith HAS BEEN TWISTED and PERVERTED into an offer of what man must do in order to get justified and live! What monumental DISASTER!
They HAVE perverted and twisted 'the just shall live by faith' into 'the condemned (unjustified) who believe shall be justified and live.'
And the tragedy is, they are OBLIVIOUS of the perversion and twisting that they have committed! Just as they have perverted and twist a wonderful declaration of fact into an conditional offer - i.e 'whoever believes has eternal life' into 'whoever will believe shall have eternal life.'
Sing F Lau
How is 'the just shall live by faith' related to Paul's declaration that he is not ashamed of the gospel?
The gospel he preaches shall be believed and received by the justified ones, them that are saved. "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which ARE SAVED it is the power of God."
The justified ones - by the free and sovereign grace of God - are out there. They need the gospel to instruct and inform and enlighten and educate them in the glorious truth of their salvation.
The gospel is GUARANTEED of its RECEPTION by its divinely intended recipient!
The just shall live by faith, I.E. hear and believe the gospel of Jesus Christ! To them that ARE SAVED, the gospel will be received as a message informing them of the power of God that has SAVED them by FREE grace.
In believing the gospel, they will EXPERIENCE the great blessedness of their justification by God's free grace.
Why should anyone be ashamed as a gospel preacher!
Sing F Lau
Trevor Christian Johnson, with regard to Rom 1:17, I conclude for now that it lends no support whatsoever to the popular idea that the elect are justified before God by or through faith, their act of believing.
It teaches the EXACT opposite - only the justified ones shall live by faith, I.E. believe the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.
That is why the Old Baptists declared in this manner, "The reason why any are justified IS NOT because they have faith; but the reason why they have faith IS because they are justified."
Their true children continue to believe the same.
The bastards, pretenders to be their descendants, reject this truth, and believe the opposite!
How the world has changed!
Sing F Lau
Trevor @ "Second, the Bible everywhere speaks of the instrumentality of the Word of God.
'Ye are clean through the word I have spoken to you, John 15:3
Of his own will begot he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of first-fruits of his creatures. —James 1:18."
===============
Trevor, I am in hearty agreement with your statement above, i.e. the Bible everywhere speaks of the instrumentality of the Word of God.
Where we differ GREATLY is this: you believe the instrumentality of the word of God (written and preached word) in REGENERATION, instrumental in quickening the dead.
I believe the Bible everywhere speaks of the instrumentality of the word of God of in CONVERSION, in enlightening God's children and turn them to the truth.
We all know that pure milk and meat are very important, Many say they are an instrumentality for quickening the dead. I say they are an instrumentality for nurturing the living.
You and I believe in the instrumentality of the preached word - but what is it instrumentality for?
Apostle Paul said in Rom 10
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?... 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Paul's rhetorical questions presuppose those who are spiritually alive, i.e. regenerated... capable of calling upon the name of the Lord, capable of believing, capable of discerning spiritual things. The grace of faith that is worked in them by the Spirit dwelling in them CAN ONLY BE DRAWN OUT by the instrumentality of the gospel - because FAITH COMETH BY HEARING.
But hearing cometh by the Word of God... the ability to hear, comes through the Word of God, the Life-giving Logos who gives eternal life, enabling the one to discern spiritual things.
The gospel ministry is the means appointed by God to bring forth the grace of faith already worked in a child of God.
The gospel is meant for those that have spiritual life to call upon the name of the Lord, even those that ARE SAVED. But for them to call upon the name of the Lord, they must need to hear the gospel... for the gospel instructs and enlightens them of the truth of their salvation that has been bestowed upon them.
The gospel ministry is the instrumentality unto CONVERSION... not regeneration.
Kate Richardson
Go ahead Trevor--preach those babies in hell. Now what we need to do is figure out how to get the gospel message to them in utero in case they don't survive. Or perhaps teach them to read while still nursing so they can be converted before having a fatal childhood accident.
I know that I have not properly seasoned this post with grace, but your arguements are flatly illogical and unreasonable. And don't tell me there is another salvation for babies, and one for children, and one for mentally deficient and so on because it just is not in the Scripture.
Many of you would do well to spend less time studying and debating religion and so-called religious characters and more time praying for wisdom and studying the word of God.
Sing F Lau
Kate, you raise a legitimate issue. Maybe it is not even an issue with Trevor. To folks like him, eternal salvation is inextricably tied up with hearing and believing the gospel. Without it, there is simply no salvation, whatsoever. Their premise is this: an elect will surely hear and believe the gospel, there is no such thing as an elect not hearing and believing the gospel of Jesus Christ. Pretty consistent... but I fear consistently wrong.
Well, what is flatly illogical and unreasonable to you may be plainly logical and very reasonable to Trevor! So, maybe he will explain.
Sing F Lau
"The Elect are justified by or through faith (Rom. 1:17; 3:25, 28, 30; 5:1; Gal. 2:16; 3:11, 24; Eph. 2:8; Phil 3:9) - (Noel Espinosa, principal of the RB ministerial academy in the Philippines) quoted by Trevor to demonstrate his assertion"
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Let's take a look at the second passage quoted to support the idea that "the elect are justified by or through faith, their act of believing." Is there such a notion in this passage of Holy Scriptures? Or is it a poisonous lie wrung out of this passage by unholy defiled hands?
Here's the Rom 3:25 with its surrounding context.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by the faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
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v22: Apostle Paul speaks of the manifestation or revelation of the righteousness of God's provision, a righteousness that is WITHOUT man's obedience to the law of God. This fact is being witnessed and testified both by the law and the prophets.
v23: How did that righteousness of God's provision come about? It came about through Christ's obedience to the law. Sin is the transgression of the law. Righteousness is obedience to the same law. Sin brings condemnation of death, righteousness brings justification of life (Rom 5:18).
The righteousness of God's provision came through the obedience of Christ to the law of God... what His people cannot do, Christ did for His people. He rendered the perfect and complete obedience to the whole law of God that they are incapable of rendering.
This truth Apostle Paul declares it in these words, "Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ..." This righteousness of God's provision for justly condemned sinners (what the elect are by nature!) because of their sins is by faith OF - OF - OF Jesus Christ. All the modern PERVERSIONS have twisted this passage to read "... by faith in Jesus Christ."
The righteousness of God's provision for the condemned sinners is through the faithfulness OF OF - OF Christ's in rendering perfect obedience to God's whole law.
The righteousness of God's provision for the condemned sinners is NOT through the faith of the condemned sinners IN - IN - IN Christ.
Righteousness must either come from the condemned sinners' own faithful obedience to God's law, or it must be through the faithful obedience to God's law by a Substitute!
So, the faith spoken of here in this passage has NOTHING to do with the believing act of the condemned unjustified man in order to get justified.
The faith OF - OF - OF Christ in securing righteousness for His people is VASTLY and DISTINCTLY different from the faith of God's children (only regenerated children can believe!) IN - IN - IN Christ Jesus.
A man who can't distinguish the two HAS NOT begun to rightly divide the word of truth - but still confused!
Kate Richardson
Amen and amen.
Sing F Lau
Trevor declares, "You err greatly regarding this point, believing that it is possible for the Elect to be already regenerate or justified chronologically prior to exercising faith."
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Let us take a few biblical examples...
Take Abraham for example:
- Abraham was most certainly JUSTIFIED by God's free grace as well as regenerated when God called him out of the Ur of the Chaldean.
- Abraham had been an UNGODLY idolatrous man, dead in trespasses and sins in Ur. But God effectually called him out of his state of sin and condemnation to that of grace and salvation.
- To call an ungodly man out of his state of sin and condemnation to that of grace and salvation REQUIRES these activities of God (1) justification by His free grace to remove the condemnation and apply the righteousness of Christ; (2) regeneration by the sovereign act of the Spirit to give eternal life, based on the righteousness applied personally, (3) adoption into the family of God, to remove the alienation (4) and the giving of the Spirit of adoption to dwell in Abraham.
- All these acts of God by His free and sovereign grace are NECESSARILY executed in the effectual calling of a man out of his state of sin and death.
The effectual calling of Abraham produced the Abraham we see in Gen 12-14. What kind of man do we see in Abraham?
- He was an obedient man. "And so Abraham departed, as the Lord had spoken unto him." Gen 12:1,
- He often built altars unto the Lord, and called upon the name of the Lord, Gen 12:8; 13:4,
- He was a man that the Lord has intimate dealings... 13:14,
- He was a man who feared and honored the Lord... 14:22
But so many Calvinists, not to mention the Arminians they despise, in their obtuseness, insist that Abraham was a condemned (i,e un-justified) man before God in Gen 12-14, and he was only justified by God in Gen 15:1-6.
And according to Trevor's declaration, Abraham was both a condemned (i.e un-justified by God's free grace) and dead in trespasses and sins in Gen 12-14. And he was NOT justified, nor regenerated, by God through UNTIL Abraham exercised his faith in Gen 15:1-6.
I do believe these misguided folks deserve some sharp slaps from father Abraham for so grievously maligning him!
Let God be true, and every Calvinist and Arminian A LIAR who slander Abraham as unjustified and unregenerated before his conversion in Gen 15:1-6.
Abraham alone is enough to expose the lies and falsehood of this Calvinistic notion "You err greatly regarding this point, believing that it is possible for the Elect to be already regenerate or justified chronologically prior to exercising faith."
Sing F Lau
Abraham is just one... but that one is enough to deal a deadly blow to that vain Calvinistic notion that it is a great error "believing that it is possible for the Elect to be already regenerate or justified chronologically prior to exercising faith."
Look at the hosts of others?
What about Cornelius?
What about the Ethiopian eunuch?
What about the devout god-fearing Jews who came to worship God in Jerusalem during Pentecost, and were CONVERTED by the preaching of Apostles?
What about Lydia?
If these do not remove the WILFUL choice to believe otherwise, let me plead with you a more shattering example.
Those to whom Apostle Paul was writing to in Rome, Apostle Paul emphatically said that he was filled with great urgency and indebtedness to preach the gospel to them. Apostle Paul had also stated emphatically that he did not build on other man's foundation, 15:20.
"I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise. So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also."
All these indicate that the Romans to whom Paul was writing had not heard the gospel before. If they have heard the gospel, the Apostle Paul was gravely mistaken and his zeal misplaced!
No, the Romans to whom Apostle Paul addressed his epistle had not heard the gospel before. Though they were in urgent need of hearing the gospel... they were designated in these terms:
- the CALLED of Jesus Christ...
- the BELOVED of GOD, and
- CALLED to be saints!
Granted, because these have not yet heard the gospel, and stand in urgent need to hear the gospel, Calvinists insist that these are still un-justified (i.e. still under the condemnation of death) and un-regenerated! And they remain un-justified and un-regenerated until they believe through the gospel ministry.
I believe that these terms can only be true of those whom God has justified and regenerated, and adopted and indwelt with the Spirit of adoption.
1Co 14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
Sing F Lau
Trevor @ "Verses against Spirit Alone Regeneration"...
"Of his own will begot he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of first-fruits of his creatures. —James 1:18."
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There is a begetting by God through His Spirit that brings a man dead in trespasses and sins to eternal life.
There is a begetting by the word of truth communicated through the gospel ministry that converts a child of God in ignorant and darkness to knowledge and light.
There is NO REGENERATION BY THE PREACHED WORD here!
The begetting Peter is speaking of is NOT the begetting of the dead by the Holy Spirit in regeneration, but a gospel conversion brought about by the power of God in the preaching of the gospel.
Apostle Paul was a spiritual father to many in the sense that he was instrumental in their CONVERSION through the ministry of the word of truth.
Regeneration by the immediate activity of the Holy Spirit WITHOUT gospel means REMAINS the gospel truth.
It is the truth which GUARANTEES that the promised salvation is SURE to all the elect!
Sing F Lau
Trevor @ "Verses against Spirit Alone Regeneration:...
"...we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction." (1 Thess 1:4, 5).
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The gospel came to them "not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction" BECAUSE the gospel came to them that ARE SAVED, the gospel didn't come to them as those dead in trespasses and sins.
See Apostle Paul's own words here - why the gospel is received any one: "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."
When the gospel come to them that are saved, it will be received as a message declaring the power of God THAT HAS SAVED them.
the Bible everywhere speaks of the instrumentality of the Word of God - yes, an instrumentality of CONVERTING God's children... not instrumentality to MAKE children for God.
The biblical distinction is the essence of sound theology!
Sing F Lau
Trevor,
The Old Baptists declared in this manner,
"The reason why any are justified IS NOT because they have faith; but the reason why they have faith IS because they are justified."
BUT the New Baptists declare thus:
"The reason why any are justified IS because they have faith; but the reason why they have faith IS NOT because they are justified."
Actually, they both use the the exactly same sounding words, and even the same number of words too. But they are world apart, are they not?
And yet, horror of horror, you insist that they are both saying the same thing! May be the same in SOUND only, most certainly vastly different in SENSE!
It is plain that the Scriptures teaches three distinct aspect of justification. THREE distinct aspect of justification are spoken of:
- the LEGAL justification accomplished by Christ at the cross for all His people,
- the VITAL justification when legal justification is applied personally to each individual elect.
- the EXPERIENTIAL justification by or through believing in Christ.
1. The Calvinists are oblivious of the LEGAL aspect on the cross, and the VITAL aspect applied by God's free grace, that then enables a man to believe.
2. The Calvinists confuse the EXPERIENTIAL aspect for the VITAL aspect, and have CROSSBRED them, and produce the MONSTROSITY called 'faith as the instrument to OBTAIN justification by God."
3. The truth is, faith, believing and resting in Christ Jesus and His righteousness, is the instrument to EXPERIENCE the blessedness of, and MANIFEST the justification that has TAKEN PLACE by God's free grace, WITHOUT and APART FROM faith, for the unjustified man is still under the condemnation of death and is utterly incapable of faith.
Sing F Lau
You quoted this as evidence of your doctrine that your justification before God is by or through your faith.
"Therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" - yes, have peace in the heart is the experiential aspect of justification, justification by faith.
Justification by your faith, and justification by the free grace of God are certainly very distinct and different altogether.
God justifies the UNGODLY freely by His grace - declaring the guilty condemned righteous by applying Christ's righteousness to and forgiving the sins of, the ungodly. You understand the word 'freely'?
Faith justifies the BELIEVERS - their believing declares/justifies/vindicates something about them, EVEN their justified state by the free grace of God. It is like your breathing justifies that you are alive!
Justification which is FREELY by God's grace, and justification which is by your faith... are two distinct and different justification altogether.
Calvinists marry them and produce a monster call, "God justifies the believers through the instrumentality of their act of believing'!
Read the exchanges here
Read the exchanges here
