Rightly dividing the truth on regeneration and conversion is necessary to rightly understand the popular religious jargon "salvation by grace alone." Vastly different things are meant by that cliché by different people.
Many, when they see the distinctions made in the chart below, repudiate the truth on regeneration and conversion rightly divided.
Many, when they see the distinctions made in the chart below, repudiate the truth on regeneration and conversion rightly divided.
The chart is copied from here:
I posted the above; the following exchanges took place.
Yanad
If some humans are regenerated apart from hearing the Gospel, can one say that all humans are totally depraved then, Pr Sing? (hoping for a friendly discussion, listening ears here)
Just FYI, I don't fully embrace the 1689 Confession. at this present moment, I ain't a 1689 Federalist.
Sing
Thanks. We will leave that historical document aside.
What is a 1689 Federalist? Thanks.
I notice you admire John Gill and AW Pink (whom I personally categorize as HyperC), correct me if I'm wrong, John Gill falls under the right hand side circle based on 1689 Federalist's definition. Benjamin Keach is considered to be a 1689 Federalist by them.
[sing - "Denunciation is the last resort of a defeated foe," said A. Pink when people attacked and dismissed his book "The Sovereignty of God" as hypercalvinistic!]
[sing - "Denunciation is the last resort of a defeated foe," said A. Pink when people attacked and dismissed his book "The Sovereignty of God" as hypercalvinistic!]
Sing
Three men are standing side by side; the man in the centre calls the shorter man on his left an Arminian, and the much taller man on his right he slanders as a hyper-Calvinist. What if I remind you of the historical fact that John Gill was the epitome of Calvinism of his days? The degenerated men who came after calling him name!
Explain in a few sentences what a 1689 federalist is. Thanks.
(You have called out a few names already, e.g. Federalist, HyperC. I inquired about 'federalist'; what is a HyperC? You label John Gill as HyperC; what's that?)
(You have called out a few names already, e.g. Federalist, HyperC. I inquired about 'federalist'; what is a HyperC? You label John Gill as HyperC; what's that?)
Yanad
I try to avoid calling names. We can agree to disagree about John Gill, doesn't matter to me really. I can't explain 1689 federalism as I ain't one.
the one on top right hand side corner is 1689 Federalism.
Sing
You aren't supposed to throw around terms that you can't explain. It doesn't help in a discussion.
You aren't supposed to throw around terms that you can't explain. It doesn't help in a discussion.
Yanad
Sure, just sharing. I'll stop sharing the terms if they don't help. Appreciate the input.
Sing
You don't know what a 1689 Federalist is but you know you are not a 1689 Federalist. How interesting.
Yanad
Thank you for the sarcasm. That's very friendly of you to say that. Just to share with you, I know why I am not one, but I don't have enough knowledge to share at an acceptable intellectual level to you. Hope this helps.
Sing
It helps immensely. (It was no sarcasm, just confusion).
Sing
1. Of all that are regenerated, they are ALL, without exception, either regenerated apart from hearing the gospel or conditioned upon hearing the gospel.
Source of this simple and plain statement of truth:
John 3:8 "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."
"So is EVERY ONE that is born of the Spirit."
Thus, there are ONLY two choices, so it is easy. Choose one, and live with the necessary implications of that choice. The "exception" idea is concocted by sincere folks who won't receive the plain statement.
2. Can one say that all humans are totally depraved then?
This is the first time I have ever heard the two issues are connected by "If... then."? Please show how are they related by your "if... then..." logic.
Total depravity is a biblical doctrine stating the native state of the fallen race of Adam.
Yanad
I don't hear any answer. Is it a yes or no?
Sing
Answer to what specific question?
Yanad
Are all non-converted humans totally depraved?
Sing
That depends on who is included in your "non-converted human"?
[Demanding a yes or no answer is often (not always) simplistic and naive!]
[Demanding a yes or no answer is often (not always) simplistic and naive!]
There are God's children, i.e. elect that HAS BEEN regenerated but are not converted yet. Such are no longer totally depraved.
All men, whether elect or non-elect, who are not yet regenerated are in their NATIVE state of total depravity (i.e. the complete extent of his being, his every faculty has been poisoned by sin; rendering him complete and total inability towards his own salvation.)
Ask further if I have not answered your question.
Yanad
Interesting, so in your opinion, there are Spirit-regenerated non-Christians out there? and these non-Christians are not totally depraved?
Interesting, so in your opinion, there are Spirit-regenerated non-Christians out there? and these non-Christians are not totally depraved?
Do I understand you correctly? I don't want to misunderstand your view.
Sing
"Interesting, so in your opinion, there are Spirit-regenerated non-Christians out there?
"Interesting, so in your opinion, there are Spirit-regenerated non-Christians out there?
And these non-Christians are not totally depraved?
Do I understand you correctly?
I don't want to misunderstand your view.
I don't want to misunderstand your view.
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I'm so glad you don't want to misunderstand my view. Thank you for your kindness.
Good questions, except misguided. No, you didn't understand me incorrectly.
Good questions, except misguided. No, you didn't understand me incorrectly.
But to help you, let me paint a simple picture of an elect in stages in time:
1. He is conceived and born in sin, and grows up in sin.
He is in a state of total depravity.
2. At some point between his conception and death, he is freely and sovereignly regenerated by the Spirit of God based solely on the works and merits of Christ, without and apart from any gospel preaching. He is now a CHILD of God, perfectly fitted for eternal glory.
- Once regenerated, he is NO LONGER totally depraved; he has been quickened, indwelled by the Holy Spirit, ENABLED and made capable of believing the spiritual truth. Some of God's children are not converted yet. They are God's children, but not Christian yet.
- ONLY God's children can be converted to Christ through the gospel ministry. Words have their specific meaning, so use them correctly.
- These are your "Spirit-regenerated non-Christians out there." But your gospel-regeneration (twin idea) has blinded you to this plain truth in the Scriptures. Think Cornelius, think Lydia, think devout Jews who came for the Pentecost, and were CONVERTED through Peter's preaching... think Abraham in Gen 12-14!
3. At some point between his regeneration and physical death, he may be called out by the gospel ministry to faith and repentance in Christ. When he repents and believes in the Lord Jesus Christ, he becomes a CHRISTIAN.
- As a Christian, he is now a disciple; he can be a good or poor disciple; a faithful or unfaithful disciple; a fruitful or a barren disciple.
4. His appointed death, body to dust, his spirit received into the intermediate state.
5. His appointed resurrection to eternal glory.
If you have more questions, ask.
Yanad
I am not going to continue this discussion as you start to name-call. But I appreciate this discussion. I learned something today. Have a blessed day, Pr.
Sing
If describing your position as gospel-regeneration is name-calling, then I have. My position is immediate regeneration. You can describe my position as such. I won't whine that you are name-calling. ;-)
[Labels like Arminian and Calvinist are useful shorthand, as long as the meaning is mutually understood. So, I'm neither an Arminian nor a Calvinist. I'm not a gospel regenerationist. You call John Gill as hypercalvinist from the start!]
'Obert
Yanad, For me the strongest verse for the necessity of immediate Holy Spirit regeneration is 1 Corinthians 2:14, and its sister verse Romans 3:11. If a man is not born of the Spirit he can not hear or believe the Gospel. Throw away confessions and look at Scripture.
'Obert
"the flesh gets some credit" but not before God! :) Great post thanks I am sharing.
Sing
Rom 4:16 "Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all..."
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What is said of the justification before God by the faith OF Christ [sic, not by your faith IN Christ], the exact same may be said of the immediate/direct regeneration:
- that it might be by grace (without human activities like preaching, and hearing and believing)
- to the end that the promise might be sure TO ALL THE SEED.
If regeneration is conditioned on the preaching (and of necessity, the hearing) of the gospel, then it is no longer by grace but conditioned upon some human activities; then the promise CANNOT be sure to all the elect. There are elect who have no ability to hear/comprehend the gospel, and there are others who have no opportunity to hear the same.
Immediate regeneration, without any human activity, is the only guarantee that the promise might be sure to all the seed.
Immediate regeneration, without any human activity, is the only guarantee that the promise might be sure to all the seed.
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Brother Timo shared the meme above on another page, and the following exchanges took place.
Timo
this was shared by a friend...so, I have a question for the sake of discussion. eternal salvation and regeneration, do they occur at the same time?
so the question stands: is regeneration the same as eternal salvation, and if not, will it be safe to say that the elect's eternal salvation happened or occurred in eternity when their names were written in the Lamb's Book of life and the lamb of glory was slain before the foundation of the earth with the cross here in time and the blood shed here in time being an affirmation of the work that the triune God finished in eternity (Hebrews 4:3, d).
Sing
The elect's eternal salvation:
- was purposed in eternity
- was accomplished in time at the cross
- was accomplished in time at the cross
- is applied to each elect at God's appointed and approved time, based soly upon the eternal redemption accomplished by Jesus Christ.
The lamb was slain in time, and the names of the elect were written in the Lamb's book of life before the foundation of the world.
Eternal salvation is APPLIED when the Triune God effectually call an elect out of his native state of sin and condemnation to grace and salvation in Christ Jesus.
In the effectual call, the righteousness of Christ is APPLIED to an elect (justification took place), he is simultaneously regenerated and adopted into the family of God.
Timo
Brother Lau: you said - The lamb was slain in time, the names of the elect were written in the Lamb's book of life before the foundation of the world. But I believe Revelation 13:8 and Revelation 17:8 are speaking of two events all done simultaneously...the Lamb was slain FROM the foundation of the world (which supposes blood was shed) and the names of God's saints were written from the foundation of the world....now, this may all be, as far as God's mind is concerned, events that are still to happen in time, but, to God have already happened...to my finite mind however, I am convinced that every elect child of God has been redeemed in eternity by the blood of the lamb slain from the foundation of the world, with that redemption sealed in time at the cross, by the blood shed therein by Christ, therefore, what remains, is the work of the Holy Spirit in time of regenerating each and every elect child of God, the effectual call having been sounded out in eternity (Romans 8:29-30)....now, I don't mind being called out on this and corrected because that is what I am looking for....you see, reading your chart of comparison of regeneration vs conversion, I naturally asked myself, well, regeneration comes after eternal salvation...so, when did eternal salvation happen ?
Sing
A few thoughts:
The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, and the Lamb appointed to be slain from the foundation of the world are two very different things.
The eternal redemption has been purposed for every elect in eternity and every elect has been redeemed from eternity are two different things.
I am not good at juggling words; English is my third language.
Regeneration happens when eternal redemption is applied to an elect personally.
Eternal salvation was PURPOSED for the elect in eternity.
Eternal salvation was SECURED for the elect at the cross.
Eternal salvation is APPLIED to an elect personally at God's appointed and approved time, i.e. at effectual calling out of the native state of sin and condemnation.
Eternal salvation is EXPERIENCED (consciousness is involved) by an elect at conversion to Jesus Christ.
Effectual calling happens in time, whether it was sounded (perhaps among the Three Persons of the Godhead?) out in eternity.
Rev 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Rev 17:8
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
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It is quite simple to me, there are two separate matters:
1. From before the foundation of the word is associated with the names written in the Book of Life. It answers the question, WHEN were the names written? From before the foundation of the world.
2. The Lamb that was slain is related to the Book of Life. It answers the question, WHOSE book of life? The Book of Life of the Lamb slain.
3. To associate the Lamb slain with from before the foundation of the world is to do violence to what is plainly stated in Rev 13:8.
