See exchanges on Facebook here:
Robert
It is called "The Gospel of Jesus Christ". How does hearing about something make it actual? If I paid your mortgage and never told you would your mortgage be paid? The gospel does not make the work of Christ effective, it tells of the effective work of Christ to those whose sins are paid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mkmmVrqJyo&feature=shareThe Gospel - Elder James Oliphant
Much needed gospel truth from Primitive Baptist Elder James Oliphant.
Koh
If it is just a declaration, what good is it to the hearer? What is next?
Robert
just as good as the news that your debt has BEEN paid in full it frees the conscience from guilt and allows unhindered service in thanksgiving to God for His abundant Mercy. "Come unto me all that labor and are heavy laden and I will give you rest"
Robert.
Brother Koh Han Seow, if you had the dread of Cancer in your body and the Doctor told you that it was gone altogether would "proclamation" make your life more joyful? 2 Timothy 1:8-10. The payment was made at the cross and was promised before the world began, knowledge of that fact frees your mind and heart from the weight of the guilt of having offended God Hebrews 9:14
Sing
Koh asked, “If it is just a declaration, what good is it to the hearer? What is next?”
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That's a good question, Koh
I gave this illustration before.
Supposing you are laden with debt and a declared bankrupt.
A Benefactor has freely credited a $1b into your account in addition to paying off ALL your debts. NO, He didn't make an offer, He actually DID IT. And the truthfulness of what He has done is NOT dependent upon anything you do or don't do. No, it was entirely UNCONDITIONAL. Your debt has been canceled, and you have been credited $1b in your account. That's GOOD NEWS.
Having that news declared to you, and you believing it will make a great deal of difference to your well-being, even though your believing or not believing the good news does not in any way affect your status as a free and loaded man because of the gracious and free act of the Benefactor. Believing the good news, you will go to the bank of Jesus Christ to withdraw what HAS BEEN credited FREELY into your account, to purchase the good things of life.
The cancellation of your debts and the crediting of the $1b were not conditioned upon your believing. They were ALREADY DONE, freely by God long before the news of those gracious acts were brought to you, and long before you believe them.
I hope you understand the simple illustration.
I'm a village bumpkin, I speak of simple things.
Robert
I like this illustration better because it is more accurate than my own, because we have been blessed with all Spiritual blessings in Christ, We have been made heirs and joint heirs with Christ. How shall he not freely give us all things! Sing's is much better than mine. :)
Koh
That declaration is to everyone and their debts are cancelled?
Robert
Koh Han Seow, No sir the proclamation is to the regenerate elect only, the non-elect remains in the Adamic state, and will suffer justly. Only the regenerated (born again) elect can hear. See 1 Corinthians 2:11-14, Ephesians 2:1-5, John 10:11-15, Acts 13:46.
Koh
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. -1 Timothy 2:4
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. -2 Peter 3:9
How do you interpret the word All in these two verses?
Sing
That declaration is to everyone and their debts are cancelled?
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Always starts with the basic and fundamentals...
1. God chose a people to save. Can we agree?
Read John 6:39 "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day." And 17:2 "
As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to AS MANY AS thou hast given him."
2. God gave these chosen ones to Christ. These belongs to Christ. Christ came to save them. Can we agree?
Mat 1:21 "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins."
Christ came to save those whom the Father has gave Him; and only those whom Christ came to save have their sins paid for and cancelled.
The declaration of salvation has to do EXCLUSIVELY with the SAME GROUP OF PEOPLE... those chosen out of the fallen race of Adam.
[The "ALL" in the two passages above need to be understood in the CONTEXT of the Scriptures. ALL can only embrace those who Christ came to save. "ALL" sorts of people, all over the world, not just the Jews.
Rev
[The "ALL" in the two passages above need to be understood in the CONTEXT of the Scriptures. ALL can only embrace those who Christ came to save. "ALL" sorts of people, all over the world, not just the Jews.
Rev
Koh
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. -1 Timothy 1:15
For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost. -Luke 19:10
When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. -Mark 2:17
My point is, there are bible verses support different views.
All believers are called by God but are all called believe?
Sing
1Tim 1:15
Christ came into the world to save HIS PEOPLE, those whom God the Father has given to Him before the foundation of the world. (Hard to accept because such plain truth goes against all that we had been indoctrinated.)
Luke 19:10
Who are the lost? The word "lost" necessarily implies an owner. Those that are lost BELONGS to Christ. They are His because God the Father gave them to Him. Though they are His, yet they are separated by Christ, i.e. lost, because their sins have separated them from Christ.
Mark 2:17
All those whom Christ came to save are sinners; all those whom God gave to Christ are sinners. The elect whom God have regenerated, therefore God's children are STILL SINNERS, they need to be converted, call to repentance, to live righteously.
Rightly divided, there is ONLY ONE consistent teaching of Scriptures. When two views are contradictory, BOTH views may be completely wrong, two contradictory views CANNOT be correct at the same time.
Sing
Koh said, "All believers are called by God but are all called believe?"
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Nice rhetorical question. The answer you expect is No.
But the question is filled with confusion about calling.
There are various callings spoken of in the Scriptures...
There is the effectual calling out of the state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation.
There is the gospel calling to repentance and faith.
There is a calling to service...calling to special offices...
Called to eternal life, and called to believe the truth are distinct. God ALONE has called you to eternal life; many preachers, I included, are calling you to conversion to the truth. The former is the once-for-all complete act of God; the latter is a life-long process.
Let me be more precise with your question above:
1. All God's elect, who are by nature, dead in trespasses and sins, are effectually called out of their native state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation in Christ Jesus.
ONLY the elect are effectually called out of their native state of sin and death, and that called is executed by the Triune God alone, it's always effectual, always accomplishing its purpose, bringing an elect out of the state of sin and death to grace and salvation in Christ Jesus, and at God's own appointed and approved time.
2. God's children, still in their ignorance of the gospel, are called by the gospel ministry to believe the truth of their salvation that the Triune God has PURPOSED, ACCOMPLISHED, and APPLIED to them.
- Because they have been regenerated, and their mind enlightened, they are capable of discerning spiritual things; they are capable of believing the gospel, the truth of their salvation by the free and sovereign grace of God.
Not believers but sinners dead in trespasses and sin are summoned by God out of their native state of sin and death to grace and salvation in Jesus Christ, like dead putrefying Lazarus was summoned out of his death by Christ. All you and other disciples can do for Lazarus is to loose the grave-clothes of him.
The gospel preaching may be heard by many others apart from the children of God in the audience BUT the gospel news is INTENDED SPECIFICALLY whom God has SAVED. It is no good news to anyone else.
Sing
Koh, take a look here, a short and brief article.
When you have understood, and by God's grace receive them, teach it to the dear folks in our hometown.
Sola fide is a great and injurious lie of the devil!
THINGS-NEW-AND-OLD.BLOGSPOT.COM
Koh
I can provide another example. I am a bankrupt and owe a lot of money to a bank. The bank write me a check or cheque to pay my debt in full. I have to take it and bank into my account if not this free gift or salvation is no good to me. Just like God has provided salvation in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world, Whoever believes in Jesus Christ will receive salvation He freely gives. He is omniscient and He has pre-knowledge on who will believe or not. By using this example, whoever believes can be a declaration or an act and we can interpret the Bible literally because people tends to interpret bible according to theological background and not the historical background of the Bible.
Robert
will your current understanding correlate with 2 Corinthians 5:19, Romans 3:11, 1 Corinthians 2:14, 1 John 5:1, Acts 13:48?
Robert Cook Sr. I would ask you also to consider that your current understanding is condemning people to hell whose sin debt has been paid in full, they have no sin because Christ suffered for them in vain? Understanding the Gospel message ( the Bible as a whole) necessitates an understanding of the Holiness of God His hatred of sin, and why Jesus Cried out "my God, my God why hast thou forsaken me?" The old testament sacrifices were they for the whole world or just for the Nation of Israel? The ultimate sacrifice was also for only the elect (spiritual Israel ) Matthew 1:21, John 10:11, Hebrews 2:11, Hebrews 10:14.
Sing
Koh, keep thinking. I'm very afraid of man who keeps silent. A man who speaks can be understood, and maybe helped too if he is opened to learning.
I like your illustration, EXCEPT that it does not conform to biblical reality about the man's spiritual condition.
The Scriptures describes a man who is bankrupt and in lots of debts as one who is SPIRITUALLY DEAD in sins, i.e. not only hostile towards God but completely incapable of any spiritual activity to God-ward.
His bankruptcy speaks of his ZERO ability of any spiritual activity towards God.... so your idea of him taking the cheque to the bank to cash it is a delusion and fable not in accord with the Scriptures description about the man.
The blessings represented by the cheque must be applied to the bankrupt man first, i.e. eternal life must be given to him first.... back to point 1, REGENERATION must precede believing... taking the cheque to the bank. NO life, no activities of that life.
Chinese offers roast pigs to the dead at the cemetery, and the delicious roast pork ends up in their own belly. If they leave the roast pig at the cemetery, I will collect it and have a good party.
Robert
"Chinese offers roast pigs to the dead at the cemetery, and the delicious roast pork ends up in their own belly." Is this like ancestor worship they do in Africa?
Sing
Robert Cook Sr. I don't know. Never been to Africa. I live among Chinese, and I am acquainted with their practices.
Koh
I don't understand your first question. How my understanding is condemning people to hell?
Koh
Salvation is absolutely of God and in Christ.
Can a regenerated man refuse to believe? If I am regenerated or all debts had been cancelled, whether I believe or not I am already been regenerated and out of bankruptcy. So believing (act of God) and regeneration can actually happen at the same time.
Sing
"Can a regenerated man refuse to believe?"
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A child of God (i.e. a regenerated man, born of God, therefore a child of God) needs to brought to believe the truth of his salvation. That's the whole purpose of the gospel ministry.
A child of God is capable of refusing to believe the truth of his salvation. His mind may be prejudiced by lots of falsehood...
A child is capable of refusing to believe a man as his REAL father because of many prejudices.
Having said that, a man who refuses to believe Jesus Christ, there is no ground whatsoever to hope or claim that he is a child of God.
Sing
If I am regenerated or all debts had been cancelled, whether I believe or not I am already been regenerated and out of bankruptcy.
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That's is true as far as your legal status is concerned.
Not believing it affects your subjective experience of what has objectively happened, freely by God's grace.
Sing
Koh stated, "So believing (act of God) and regeneration can actually happen at the same time.
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Let's assume you are asking "So believing and regeneration can actually happen at the same time."
(Believing is an act of man, it is a WORK of man, a man believes, it is his activity, his work. Christ said it - read John 6:28-29)
IMPOSSIBLE. For these reasons:
But first, let me state the basics again.
- Regeneration is solely by the free and sovereign activity of the Spirit of God, at His own approved and appointed time.
- Regeneration is INSTANTANEOUS, immutable and complete. Once regenerated, forever regenerated.
The gospel ministry is sent to CONVERT a child of God to the truth of his salvation by God's free grace. Only a child of God can be converted, brought to the truth of his salvation by God's free grace.
Preaching takes time... hearing takes times... understanding the things preached takes time...
Therefore believing CANNOT happen at the same time with regeneration.
Regeneration ALWAYS precedes conversion, both LOGICALLY and CHRONOLOGICALLY.
Abraham was regenerated way back in Gen 11. He was converted in Gen 15, MANY years in between.
Keep asking, if you desire to learn.
Koh
So when is regeneration taking place?
Sing
Koh asked, “So when is regeneration taking place?”
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I hope you and I are agreed that ONLY the elect, those whom God has chosen and given to Christ, and those whom Christ came to save are regenerated.
So, when does regeneration take place in an elect?
An elect, though existing in the mind of God before the foundation of the world, does not have personal existence until his conception in the womb of his earthly mother.
Answer:
His regeneration can be any time between his conception and shortly before his last breath.
Sing
Koh said, "He is omniscient and He has pre-knowledge on who will believe or not."
I fear your idea of God's foreknowledge (your pre-knowledge) is just a fable; a common and popular misconception of what the Scriptures say.
Take a look at this short article.
Foreknowledge, not the same as Omniscience
THINGS-NEW-AND-OLD.BLOGSPOT.COM
Sing
Koh said, "Salvation is absolutely of God and in Christ."
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Most can agree with this BROAD statement... but when specifics are spelled out, serious disagreement arise.
This is how I understand that statement. Do you?
1. God purposed eternal salvation for His elect people.
2. Christ secured eternal salvation for exactly the same people at the cross.
3. The Holy Spirit applies the eternal salvation to each elect personally, at God's own appointed and approved time.
No eternal salvation is ever OFFERED by God to anyone. If He had done so, no one would have accepted it. The dead in trespasses and sins have no ability to accept the offer. They are in positive and active enmity against God. God knows this. However, many preachers are ignorant of this basic elementary truth, and go about offering eternal salvation, with all sincerity and passion.
God Himself actively, sovereignly, and freely APPLIES the eternal salvation by His Spirit, at His own approved and appointed time, to each of His elect when they are still in their native state of sin and death. With the application of the eternal salvation, each elect is entirely and perfectly fitted for eternal glory... nothing else is lacking. 'Who He justified, He also glorified.'
The Lord sends forth His servants to proclaim the good news of what the Triune God has done for His elect by His free and sovereign grace, calling them to believe the gospel, that they may know the truth of their eternal salvation by free and sovereign grace, and experience personally the blessedness of that salvation.
The gospel is intended specifically for them that ARE SAVED: "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." 1Co 1:18. When the gospel comes to them that ARE SAVED, it is received as the message declaring God's power of saving them in Christ Jesus.
The gospel ministry is very important... but NOT what many imagined, i.e. as an instrument of conveying eternal salvation. The gospel ministry is appointed for the benefit of God's children, those ALREADY in possession of eternal salvation by God's free grace. The gospel ministry is very important for the temporal salvation, the spiritual well-being, of God's children. It is the spiritual food to nourish those who already have eternal life. Food is for the nourishment of the living, it is not the means to bring life to the dead!
I have said too much.
I will leave the matter here.
Koh
Thank you!
