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| Ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God |
Heb 5
12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
Sing F Lau
17 February 2012 · Penang
It is this elementary
The salvation that ENABLES a man to believe and
the salvation that COMES from believing are
TWO different and distinct salvations.
They can't possibly be the same to any sound-minded men!
The life that one has had from the procreating activities of his parents and the life that he gets through his labour and effort are two different and distinct lives; the former has brought you into BEING, the latter ensure your WELL-BEING and usefulness.
The Salvation which is the CAUSE cannot be the same as the salvation which is an EFFECT! It is that elementary!
This is where some PBs and a few others got it right. The rest are completely confused and misguided.
Charles Page
Charles Page so elementary even a package handler can understand that but men with doctoral degrees are confounded!
Grant Peterson
So elementary that Billy Graham, Oral Roberts, T L Osborne, John Wesley, Kenneth E Hagin, Joseph Prince, C S Lewis et al. could not see it in the Bible- how could they have missed something so obvious?
Charles Page
God discloses it to the people he chooses to make it known!
Grant Peterson
Oh, a secret!
Sing F Lau
Good question, Grant. 'Big' names too!
Have you heard of Big names further back in history?
Pitting men against men is kid's stuff!
Get to the Scriptures.
Nicodemus and Gamaliel were pretty big names too!!! But they missed the elementary in far better circumstances.
Joh 3:10 "Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?"
Answer your own question and continue the way you love.
If you are willing to learn a few things, please stay!
Sing F Lau
How could they have missed something so obvious?
Nothing new under the sun.
Ezekiel 13
1 ¶ And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, Hear ye the word of the LORD;
3 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!
4 O Israel, thy prophets are like the foxes in the deserts.
5 Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the LORD.
6 They have seen vanity and lying divination, saying, The LORD saith: and the LORD hath not sent them: and they have made others to hope that they would confirm the word.
7 Have ye not seen a vain vision, and have ye not spoken a lying divination, whereas ye say, The LORD saith it; albeit I have not spoken?
8 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye have spoken vanity, and seen lies, therefore, behold, I am against you, saith the Lord GOD.
9 And mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of my people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the Lord GOD.
Sing F Lau
Oh, a secret!
======
Luke 10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.
Charles Page
Oral Roberts, T L Osborn, Kenneth E Hagin, Joseph Prince, ...are you serious??? LOL LOL
Sing F Lau
O should be so serious until one is dead! That's far too serious!
Honestly, when folks see grasshoppers as giants, they haven't seen much yet!
Yoel Rizo-Patron
Grant’s high view of mortals might be the root of his errors.
I heard of Apostle Paul and of Jesus the Christ; but who are those men in his comment above?
I click "like " on Grant comments because I'm convinced that he's being joking around pretending to be confused heretic
Grant Peterson
I see your point Sing F Lau.
Thank you for being honest and frank enough to say that ... Billy Graham,
Oral Roberts, T L Osborne, John Wesley, Kenneth E Hagin, Joseph Prince, C S Lewis, Smith Wigglesworth, C T Studd, et al., are 'foolish prophets', using 'lying divination', speaking 'vanity' and 'lies'.
Charles Page
the preachers that gives me pain are modern day preachers of the well-meant offer: Paul Washer, John Piper, John MacArthur, Ray Comfort and a host of other 'foolish prophets,' using 'lying divination,' speaking 'vanity' and 'lies.'
Sing F Lau
Grant Peterson, that's your conclusion! So, learn not to put words in my mouth. I can express my opinion well enough.
I am honest and frank to remind you the Scriptures that in every generation there are prophets teaching falsehood.
And if you think those mentioned by you fall into the same category, that's your conclusion, not mine.
Have you heard or read of these men: John Owen, George Whitefield, Jonathan Edwards, Augustus Toplady, Benjamin Keach, William Kiffin, Hanserd Knollys, and JOHN GILL?
Maybe you are too modern for these old school theologians!
These stand on the other side of the great gulf...
John Wesley and George Whitefield are contemporaries. Wesley said to Whitefield, "Your God is my devil.'
What a gulf is their understanding of theology... though both were children of God.
Sing F Lau
Charles Page, what gives you pain seem to give men like Grant Peterson joy.
Pj Walters
Grant, there are many in the broad way, but few in the narrow. Those you mentioned are/were in the broad way.
So elementary even a mechanic can understand it, but men with their doctoral degrees are confounded!
Sing F Lau
I am sure Grant Peterson will jump and rave that you are sending those men he so loved to eternal hell!!! That is the way he and his friends understand those verses in Mt 7!
They don't know any better!
Lot entered the wide gate and walked the broad way most of his life... Abraham chose the strait gate and narrow way... both are in heaven today!
Lot entered the wide gate and walked the broad way most of his life... Abraham chose the strait gate and narrow way... both are in heaven today!
Pj Walters
To avoid strife, I should have clarified that only with much twisting can one make the verses in Matthew 7 to speak of eternal hell.
Sing F Lau
Mt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
So very many read these two verses, and they naively EQUATE the 'destruction' as eternal hell, and 'life' as heaven!
They believe that eternal hell is avoided, and eternal life gained by their life of entering the strait gate and walking the narrow way!
Well, I sure hope a few of the very many of them do manage to make it, get into heaven by their good works!
Their heaven would be very sparsely populated! Only a few will be there... the few that MADE IT!
So much for their raving and ranting of salvation by grace alone!
Grant Peterson
Sing F Lau
When I ask you how such men could be confused and misguided. In response, by way of explanation, YOU (not I) quote from Ezekiel 13, as 'foolish prophets,' using 'lying divination,' speaking 'vanity' and 'lies.'
I have not labeled any person as such. You made the association, to deny it a comment or two later is dishonest.
As for George Whitefield, I believe you also put words into his mouth, because in his most famous sermon he says,
'(there) ... will be no hindrance to your salvation; ..., IF you lay hold on him by faith'
And Whitefield on Hell,
'I shall resolve all I have to say, into this one general proposition, "That the torments reserved for the wicked hereafter, are eternal"'
Also, I would like to see your quote of Wesley to Whitefield in its context, given their fondness for each other made more real by their obvious differences on election and freewill- both seemed to have the utmost respect for each other.
Sing F Lau
Grant Peterson,
1. You draw the conclusion... it is all there in black and white comments! There is no need to deny.
- My purpose of quoting Eze 13 is just this: there are always prophets of falsehood among God's people. But you went further than that. That's your liberty, of course.
2. I didn't put any words into Whitefield's mouth.
I did quote some famous words of Wesley to him - "John Wesley and George Whitefield are contemporaries. Wesley said to Whitefield, "Your God is my devil.'"
Wesley hated the truth of election embrace by Whitefield.
Their fondness for each other didn't prevent them HATING each's doctrine!
They are on different side of a wide and deep gulf; just like the men you admire, and the men I quoted. They are vastly different in their understanding of the gospel truth.
Grant Peterson
I doubt that you know what I believe, Sing F Lau. If there is a gulf, I am on the same side as George Whitefield -'(there) ... will be no hindrance to your salvation; ..., IF you lay hold on him by faith'.
Also, I took your reference to Ezekiel no further than to quote directly from it: own it Sing, it's your reference.
What I don't do is call the men you quote, 'without sound mind, confused and misguided'.
I gratefully acknowledge God's abundant grace in every element of salvation, while somehow reconciling that He has given every person a free will to reject the drawing of the Holy Spirit for eternal life.
George Whitefield -'(there) ... will be no hindrance to your salvation; ..., IF you lay hold on him by faith.'
Sing F Lau
Grant Peterson, I do know what you believe in those things you have expressed... I don't need to presume. I go by what you have expressed in black and white, and we are FAR apart... on such fundamental issues like justification and regeneration.
You are addicted to sound-byte.
You would say an unregenerated man can lay hold on Christ by faith and be saved. Whitefield, being a typical Calvinist, insist that regeneration PRECEDES ability to believe.
Get what I mean that you are addicted to sound byte!
Your idea of free will and mine are far apart... no need to waste time discussing.
Your idea of IMPOTENT grace differs greatly from mine on EFFECTUAL grace in granting eternal life.
Your abundant grace is CRIPPLED by man's free and natural will to wallow and die and perish in sins.
So, please go elsewhere to rave and rant your ideas! If you spew them here, i have to clean up the mess. No need for us to waste time.
18 February 2012 at 12:22 · Like
Grant Peterson
I hope you don't mind me ignoring your insults.
Please answer: if regeneration proceeds the ability to believe:
1. Why are the unregenerate asked to believe?
2. Why are the unregenerate condemned for unbelief?
3. How does Satan believe in God?
4. How do the unregenerate believe in things to do with God other than salvation?
The ability to believe is part of the 'image of God' in all people.
18 February 2012 at 12:25 · Like
Sing F Lau
If you think I am insulting you, you are mistaken. I am saying your belief is irrational and contrary to Scriptures.
Your statement 'The ability to believe is part of the 'image of God' in all people' is a pure fiction and fable at best, and your imagination at best. Starting from this hallucination, you ended up with all the nonsense.
You have completely ignored the crippling effects the fall has done to that ability! The Scriptures declares in so many words and in so many places that man by nature is in enmity against God, are incapable of discerning spiritual things. This is so basic and elementary... but you insist otherwise. How to have profitable discussion.
It is like you insisting that a dead man has the ability to eat, and I say a dead has no ability to eat whatsoever. So how to proceed in the discussion?
[Christ repeated, “EXCEPT a man be born again, he CANNOT…” Isn’t this elementary? And you still want to argue!]
Grant Peterson
In Exodus 4:31, the people believed, were they regenerate?
1 Sam 27:12, Achish believed, was he regenerate?
1 Kings 10. the Queen of Sheba believed, was she regenerate?
Jonah 3:5, Ninevah believed, were they regenerate?
Sing F Lau
“Please answer: if regeneration proceeds the ability to believe.”
Gladly. Only your rhetorical questions are all mistaken based on erroneous ideas.
1. Why are the unregenerate asked to believe?
Ans: that's your imagination that the unregenerated are asked to believe. It is like asking a dead man to believe that he is alive because Grant loves him, and has invited him. It is asking him to believe what is not true so that it may become true!!! That's worse than wombat's talk. Sorry to insult the wombat!
The truth is, it is God's children among the hearers that are called to believe the truth of the gospel... because the gospel truth is ALREADY true of them. You ask people to believe what is ALREADY true. The gospel ministry is not calling people to believe what is not yet true of them so that it may become true of them!!! If that be the case, then there is magical power in the act of believing, believing make it come true.
2. Why are the unregenerate condemned for unbelief?
- The regenerate are condemned for their unbelief. They are obligated to believe the truth of their salvation by God's free grace.
- The unregenerate are condemned for their sins. There is no duty for any one to believe what is untrue, a lie.
3. How does Satan believe in God?
- you are confusing believing in Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour with Satan's acknowledgment that God IS.
4. How do the unregenerate believe in things to do with God other than salvation?
- All men, as CREATURES, innately know something about their Creator... that is why ALL ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE!
- But all men by nature are DEAD IN TRESPASSES AND SINS with regard to saving truth.
If you are learning, I will spend more time with you.
If you wish to debate, I am done. My time is precious.
Grant Peterson
'All men, as CREATURES, innately know something about their Creator... that is why ALL ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE! '
Do they believe what they know about their creator?
If they believe what they know (which, may I suggest, is synonymous) then the unregenerate have faith.
Sing F Lau
O what's the matter with you, Grant!
The unregenerate have faith indeed.
They have faith in Grant; they have faith in themselves, they have faith in kangaroos, they have faith in their belly, in the Sydney Harbour Bridge, etc.
But they are dead the things of the Spirit of God!!! Spiritual things are spiritually discerned, none seeks after God, etc. Have you not read?
[Saving faith, NOT faith that saves, i.e. faith that flows out of the salvation that God has freely bestowed on a man dead in sin, receives and rests in Jesus Christ for righteousness. Saving faith is distinguished from historical faith which acknowledges the bare historical of Jesus]
[Saving faith, NOT faith that saves, i.e. faith that flows out of the salvation that God has freely bestowed on a man dead in sin, receives and rests in Jesus Christ for righteousness. Saving faith is distinguished from historical faith which acknowledges the bare historical of Jesus]
Grant Peterson
Arhh, so faith and believing are part of the God-given nature of unregenerate man- what you are saying is that they can choose to believe in anything- except God.
They can be 'almost persuaded' but not 'fully persuaded'.
And of course, only the ones who are already regenerate have the Gospel preached to then and are admonished to believe?
Sing F Lau
No, no, no! You are quite mistaken what I am saying...
As natural man they are able to choose what they want to believe in natural things.
As natural man they are AS DEAD AS COULD BE in their choice concerning spiritual things. In fact natural man is very averse and hostile and antagonistic towards the things of God. Their choice is determined by their nature - flesh, and it is death.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
They have no freedom to believe spiritual things when they are spiritually dead, until they are regenerated. You reject this basic truth thus far.
Ro 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
But you insist that the natural man can mind the spiritual thing WITHOUT prior regeneration!
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
But you insist the natural man CAN - can discern, know and receive spiritual things!!!
To you, even a wombat can fly like a kangaroo!
I love Qantas nevertheless!
Grant Peterson
Acts 13 - Paul believed people had a choice to believe or not, because he warned the unsaved to TAKE CARE ... or else they will hear and not believe.
People can hear the gospel, and unless they deliberately choose to believe, they will fulfill the prophetic warning of 'hearing but not believing'.
Ergo, spiritually dead people can 'take care' and believe or not 'take care' and not believe.
Sing F Lau
Grant Peterson, you still don't get it. Dead people don't have a choice... whether dead physically or dead spiritually.
Until you deal with that basic and fundamental truth of Scriptures, you will forever be confused.
No point quoting this scripture and that scripture when you have not even settled a basic point.
Go, ask a dead Ossie of his choice about being cremated or being cast into Sydney Harbor!
Go your way, and God bless you.
Grant Peterson
Perhaps a scripture or ten to base your 'basic and fundamental point' may help- then I might get it. Because Paul was preaching to the unregenerate and he told them to 'take care' lest they don't believe… waiting for wave of scriptures to show the unsaved being preached to but Paul saying -"don't worry, you can't believe anyway."
Sing F Lau
Grant Peterson, your basic premise is completely wrong.... 'Paul was preaching to the unregenerate...'
That is fundamentally contrary to what Paul states everywhere in his epistles. Do you now understand?
Do you want Scriptures?
And will you consider and believe the truth, and repent of your grievous ERROR and LIE when Scriptures?
Otherwise, I am wasting my time.
Some have even given up wasting time with you.
And I am about to also!
Grant Peterson
Sorry Sing F Lau, you are mistaken. Paul just arrived in Antioch on his first missionary journey, as was his custom he went straight to the synagogue, he preached to the unsaved Jews who had never heard the gospel. He warned them to 'take care' lest they did not believe.
Sing F Lau
OK, just assume that I am mistaken, and you are right.
There are serious errors in your ideas in your last post but I will leave it. I have no time to waste with you.
So, go your way, and God bless you.
Thank you for your time here.
Sing F Lau
2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect’s sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
This is the motto of Paul's ministry, and sums up his OWN understanding of his OWN ministry no matter what dick, mary, or wombat may wish to imagine about theirs!
And just in case those afflicted with the disease called sound-byte-itis get distracted by the sound of what they read, let me state the obvious:
1. Paul is very conscious that his whole ministry is for the ELECT's sake, and no one else.
- God's redemptive purpose has the elect in view; it has nothing to do with the non-elect.
- Christ came to save those whom God has elected and given to Christ, not one more and not one less.
- The Holy Spirit freely and sovereignly applies the redemption accomplished by Jesus Christ to each individual elect; they are bestowed with eternal glory in Christ Jesus.
- God saves His own elect by bestowing upon them freely and sovereign eternal salvation... i.e eternal glory in Christ.
2. The gospel ministry is ordained so that God's children [those whom God ALREADY SAVED by His free and sovereign grace] may obtain the salvation which is in Jesus Christ... i.e. so that they come into a conscious knowledge of what the Triune God HAVE DONE to save them.
By God's saving work, they have ETERNAL GLORY.
By the gospel ministry, they may ALSO... ALSO... ALSO... i.e. in addition to... in addition to... in addition to eternal glory... obtain the salvation which in Christ Jesus. There is a salvation through the gospel ministry but that salvation is entirely different from the salvation already bestowed by God's free grace.
All these bring us right back to what was stated at the beginning:
=============
It is this elementary
The salvation that ENABLES a man to believe, and
The salvation that COMES from believing are TWO different and distinct salvation. They can't possibly be the same to any sound minded men!
The salvation which is the CAUSE cannot be the same as the salvation which is an EFFECT! It is that elementary!
=============
But so few understand this elementary truth.
Sad and tragic for 'masters of Israel' who are STILL ignorant of this basic stuff, and PERSIST in such willful ignorance... willfully ignoring what is plainly stated in Scriptures.
Grant Peterson
The gentleman ... 'doth protest too much, me thinks'.
Hamlet Act III, Scene II
Sing F Lau
Grant Peterson, that's quite an impressive quote!
Paul just arrived in Antioch on his first missionary journey, as was his custom he went straight to the synagogue, he preached to the unsaved Jews who had never heard the gospel. He warned them to 'take care' lest they did not believe.
============
1. Error one: He went straight to the synagogue to preach to the unsaved Jews.
Truth: He went straight to the synagogue to preach to the SAVED Jews in order to CONVERT them to the truth... NOT to bring the spiritually dead to eternal life. God's children among the Jews are most likely to be found gathered in the synagogue.
2. Error two: Salvation is conditioned on hearing and believing the gospel. This lie damned all God's children who are incapable of hearing or incapable of being reached with the gospel. Thank God this is a lie of the devil!
Truth: Salvation is by God's free and sovereign grace... conditioned on nothing man can or ought to do. Believing is the duty of the SAVED, not the duty of the dead in order to be SAVED! The SAVED are under the duty to believe the truth of their salvation. None other is under the same duty... none is obligated to believe that which is not true of them.
3. Error three: "He warned then to 'take care' lest they did not believe..." Paul asked those not saved, still dead in dead in trespasses and sins to believe that that they may be saved.
Truth: Paul warned the regenerated among them to believe the truth of their salvation by God's free grace in Jesus Christ is the promised Messiah, their Redeemer.
Three GRIEVOUS errors in two short sentences are not little!
No further comment needed.
Read the above exchanges here:
