 | |
| See how the "sola fidei" heresy of Luther is intimately related to the perverse and twisted understanding of the place of faith (man's act of believing) in his justification before God. Believing, a fruit and effect of justification, becomes the instrument in the hand of the unjustified (i.e. still under the condemantion of death) man to obtain his justification before God! |
The popular religious shibboleth "justified by grace alone through faith alone" - "faith alone" refers to the believing act of man, and that's exactly what is popularly understood - is really a poisoned lollipop introduced into the Church of Jesus Christ through a popish monk Luther.
Why do I say that? Man act of believing is WORK! In that light, the popular shibboleth is really saying: "justified by grace alone through the WORK of believing alone."
Faith, believing in Jesus Christ, is WORK. W O R K, work. Christ himself said it. You don't believe it, do you?
Jhn 6:28-29
Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
They inquired what works [plural] does God want them to DOOOOOOO? DOOOOOOOing is work.
This is the work (singular, first and foremost and chief work; they inquired about PLURAL works, but Christ remind them "first thing first) God wants you to DOOOOOOO - believe on him whom God had sent.
See the exchnages here:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10205903373850335&set=a.1097736330473.2017731.1438576629&type=1&theater
Charles Page
Hasn't
Martin Luther done more harm to Western Christian theology than any
Pope dared to do? Teaching that an unregenerate man can exercise faith
and thereby be justified before God! He was a Roman Catholic priest at
the time and remained a Roman Catholic harlot daughter of the Church.
Sing
F Lau
The fact that Luther spoke so disparagingly against the
epistle of James is positive proof that whatever he has understood about faith
and justification is COMPLETELY not biblical.
Henry,
If an unsaved man exercises faith
before God could it mean he has become a believer - do you want to judge the
heart of any man?? i thought only God could do that.
Charles Page
it means he was already
regenerate/born again.
Sing
F Lau
Henry, what is an unsaved man in
your question above?
Henry
someone who does not acknowledge God
or who refuses to 'know' Him even if he admits His existence.
but this state can change in a nanosecond when a man submits to God.
but this state can change in a nanosecond when a man submits to God.
Henry
Charles I don't see it that way - he is unsaved
up to the point where his heart changes. that is not a process, it is a step
Sing
F Lau
Henry, he is UNSAVED in what sense?
My question implies that the Bible teaches several and various aspect of
salvation. Do you know that?
Henry
absolutely not interested in such
pointless hair splitting - God knows who is His and each of us needs to (and
does) know if we are His
Sing
F Lau
You should because Apostle Paul commanded, "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."
You should because Apostle Paul commanded, "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."
Charles Page
I would say the majority of the regenerate are regenerate and don't know and will never know they are regenerate.
I would say the majority of the regenerate are regenerate and don't know and will never know they are regenerate.
Sing
F Lau
Why do you say that? Thanks.
Charles Page
regeneration occurs immediately in a nanosecond by the invisible work of the Holy Spirit apart from human efforts. The elect are scattered over the face of the earth since the beginning till the final consummation and this is an innumerable number of people. They are all alike regenerate.
However the greatest reason I say this is because there are virtually (except for a very few) missionaries who are speaking about this. Most missionaries are adept at explaining how people are not regenerated and leaving the regenerate with false knowledge or no knowledge at all about the new birth.
regeneration occurs immediately in a nanosecond by the invisible work of the Holy Spirit apart from human efforts. The elect are scattered over the face of the earth since the beginning till the final consummation and this is an innumerable number of people. They are all alike regenerate.
However the greatest reason I say this is because there are virtually (except for a very few) missionaries who are speaking about this. Most missionaries are adept at explaining how people are not regenerated and leaving the regenerate with false knowledge or no knowledge at all about the new birth.
Sing
F Lau
Are you saying that unless a
regenerate is told about the truth of regeneration, he would not know the truth
of his regeneration?
It is like a man who is never told of his conception in his mother's womb, and the subsequent birth. Such a man would never know where he came from! He would likely think a stork dropped him down from thin air!!!
It is like a man who is never told of his conception in his mother's womb, and the subsequent birth. Such a man would never know where he came from! He would likely think a stork dropped him down from thin air!!!
Charles Page
Yes, I believe that! Saul didn't know he was regenerate or not before the Damascus road experience.
The indication of regeneration is a pierced or cut heart upon hearing the gospel.
I was shocked when I learned about my birth!
Yes, I believe that! Saul didn't know he was regenerate or not before the Damascus road experience.
The indication of regeneration is a pierced or cut heart upon hearing the gospel.
I was shocked when I learned about my birth!
This deception of Luther is even
more shocking!!!
Cyrus
Lutheranism advocates a doctrine of justification "by grace alone through faith alone on the basis of Scripture alone", the doctrine that scripture is the final authority on all matters of faith,
Lutheranism advocates a doctrine of justification "by grace alone through faith alone on the basis of Scripture alone", the doctrine that scripture is the final authority on all matters of faith,
Walker
I do believe that is what John 3:16 is all about...
I do believe that is what John 3:16 is all about...
BTW...if I'm not mistaken, had it
not been for Luther and others like him, we'd all be going to Mass, praying to
Mary over some rosary beads, and eating fish on Fridays.
"....that whosoever
believes on Him...." translated...whoever exercises faith in Jesus...would
not perish but have everlasting life. I do believe that when John wrote that,
he said that it was for the WHOLE WORLD. Correct me if i'm wrong, but aren't
there quite a few unregenerate people in that mix? And if they choose to
exercise faith and believe in Jesus, does that not constitute salvation?
Sing
F Lau
Quite MISTAKEN then!
There were free churches outside of the establishment Roman Catholic Church... all through the long centuries of darkness in the harlot church!
Justification by grace through faith.... through WHOSE faith?
Luther's sola fidei is a devil's doctrine!
Quite MISTAKEN then!
There were free churches outside of the establishment Roman Catholic Church... all through the long centuries of darkness in the harlot church!
Justification by grace through faith.... through WHOSE faith?
Luther's sola fidei is a devil's doctrine!
Walker
And let us not forget Romans 10:9-10..."If we confess with our mouths the Lord Jesus, and believe in our hearts that God raised Him from the grave, we shall be saved. For it is with the mouth that confession is made, and with the heart that you believe and are justified."
And let us not forget Romans 10:9-10..."If we confess with our mouths the Lord Jesus, and believe in our hearts that God raised Him from the grave, we shall be saved. For it is with the mouth that confession is made, and with the heart that you believe and are justified."
Walker
Sing F Lau, so are you suggesting that you have to add works to your faith?
Sing F Lau, so are you suggesting that you have to add works to your faith?
Sing
F Lau
Think for a moment.
Is a man, NOT yet justified by God - thus still in his native state of sin and condemnation - able to confess to the truth of Jesus Christ?
Until you learn that the Scriptures teach distinct aspects of justification, you will not begin to understand the doctirne of justification adequately.
Think for a moment.
Is a man, NOT yet justified by God - thus still in his native state of sin and condemnation - able to confess to the truth of Jesus Christ?
Until you learn that the Scriptures teach distinct aspects of justification, you will not begin to understand the doctirne of justification adequately.
Walker
I will let the bible speak for itself...." 2And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect. 3For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.? Romans 12:2-3. So according to Paul, every man is given the ability by God through Jesus Christ to transform his thinking....In other words, Let this mind be in you that is also in Christ Jesus." And we are ALL given a measure of faith in order to make that faith commitment to Jesus...even in our unregenerate state.
I will let the bible speak for itself...." 2And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect. 3For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.? Romans 12:2-3. So according to Paul, every man is given the ability by God through Jesus Christ to transform his thinking....In other words, Let this mind be in you that is also in Christ Jesus." And we are ALL given a measure of faith in order to make that faith commitment to Jesus...even in our unregenerate state.
Walker
First and foremost sir...when Paul wrote these things...the scriptures as we know them did not even exist...so how would one have been taught from the scriptures?
First and foremost sir...when Paul wrote these things...the scriptures as we know them did not even exist...so how would one have been taught from the scriptures?
Walker
Many of the NT scriptures were written and delivered well after the churches were formed. John the Apostle wrote the book of Acts, and he did so in his old age, well after Paul had already been executed in Rome.
Many of the NT scriptures were written and delivered well after the churches were formed. John the Apostle wrote the book of Acts, and he did so in his old age, well after Paul had already been executed in Rome.
Walker
So I ask YOU...What did John mean in
John 3:16?
Walker
BTW...EVERY saint was at one point
an unregenerate sinner until they heard the gospel and exercised faith to
believe.....including you.
Charles Page
Pastor Walker, is that a 'hail Mary' argument? didn't do Miss St
much good!
Pastor Walker, is that a 'hail Mary' argument?
Walker
Not a hail mary...hopefully some
common sense. I get frustrated when people try to apply today's thinking to
what happened in the days of the bible. They did not HAVE bibles when John,
Paul, Peter, etc., walked the Earth. They did not have seminaries. All they had
was the old testament scrolls and some preachers who talked about the goodness
and mercy of Jesus Christ. Some believed and were saved, others did not and
were lost.
Walker
So if Brother Sing F Lau says they had to be taught in order to believe...then I ask ANOTHER question....explain what happened on the day of Pentecost?
So if Brother Sing F Lau says they had to be taught in order to believe...then I ask ANOTHER question....explain what happened on the day of Pentecost?
3,000 believed THAT DAY and were
saved.
Walker
They didn't go to seminaries or bible colleges. They weren't assigned to pastors who put them through New Member classes....they heard a word from God, they exercised FAITH, and they were transformed from unregenerate to regenerate.
They didn't go to seminaries or bible colleges. They weren't assigned to pastors who put them through New Member classes....they heard a word from God, they exercised FAITH, and they were transformed from unregenerate to regenerate.
sorry i'm taking all the space...lol
Walker
And as for a man being in his native
state of sin...well, the cure for that was the Atoning blood of Jesus that was
shed on ton the cross at Calvary for the SINS OF THE WORLD. In other words,
because Jesus shed His blood, and that blood covers sin, then EVERY man, woman
and child now has the ability to exercise faith and receive salvation
immediately...true THEY have to make the choice, but there is no hindrance to
them except themselves.
Now why would anyone feel the
need to add any layers, filters or conditions to that, except to control
others...such as what is done through certain churches?
Charles Page
They were regenerate, then they
heard a word from God and exercised faith and went from unbelief to belief.
Regeneration is not a work of man but a work of the Spirit. The subsequent work
(as COGIC you understand as sanctification) You went from new birth to growing
in Christ and that growth is faith at work from gospel preaching/teaching.
Sing
F Lau
It is truth of Christ alone that
sets man free.
The statement "by grace alone through faith alone..." is so plainly CONTRAADICTORY that only very wilfully prejudiced man won't admit to its plain and obvious error.
"By grace alone" by simple definition EXCLUDES every thing else. Is it by grace alone, or is it not? If it is by grace alone, then HOW is it through faith? And if through faith, through WHOSE faith?
The statement "by grace alone through faith alone..." is so plainly CONTRAADICTORY that only very wilfully prejudiced man won't admit to its plain and obvious error.
"By grace alone" by simple definition EXCLUDES every thing else. Is it by grace alone, or is it not? If it is by grace alone, then HOW is it through faith? And if through faith, through WHOSE faith?
Sing
F Lau
"....then EVERY man, woman and
child now has the ability to exercise faith and receive salvation
immediately...true THEY have to make the choice, but there is no hindrance to
them except themselves..."
======================
Is there any good news in this for man in his native state of sin and death?
Getting a dead man to choose to eat and receive life is easier!
======================
Is there any good news in this for man in his native state of sin and death?
Getting a dead man to choose to eat and receive life is easier!
Ronaldo
KJV
Walker
Sing F Lau, if you are suggesting
that anything other than the grace of God through OUR faith in Jesus Christ is
necessary for salvation, then you preach a false gospel.
Sing
F Lau
Clayton, if you are suggesting that
anything other than the grace of God ALONE in Jesus Christ ALONE, and - THROUGH
NOTHING - is necessary for salvation, then you preach a false gospel.
Your faith in Jesus Christ is a fruit and evidence of salvation by God's free grace alone in Jesus Christ alone, and thus your faith cannot be in any instrumental sense whatsoever.
Even as breath is evidence and manifestation that your have been quicken from death.
That's the simple elementary layer!
Your faith in Jesus Christ is a fruit and evidence of salvation by God's free grace alone in Jesus Christ alone, and thus your faith cannot be in any instrumental sense whatsoever.
Even as breath is evidence and manifestation that your have been quicken from death.
That's the simple elementary layer!
Charles Page
You do not live because you believe
but you believe because you live. "I live by the faith of the Son of
God" not by faith in the son of God. Gal 2:20
Walker
On this fundamental point we will
have to disagree...JESUS Christ is the object of our faith. Why would the son
of God need to exercise faith if He in fact IS God?
Charles Page
The KJV translators believed that
the faith exchange was within the God head. Sinful man did not participate in
the exchange. In fact man may not be considered the subjects of this faith.
There was not an exchange between God and man. The propitiation served God's
good pleasure. His wrath was appeased and the Godhead in trinity fulfilled that
purpose.
This ancient message of the KJV translators went against the grain of European enlightenment that was on a course of humanism, religious and secular and Martin Luther was at the helm of this ship. "Jesus Christ is the object of OUR faith" is a humanistic exaltation.
This ancient message of the KJV translators went against the grain of European enlightenment that was on a course of humanism, religious and secular and Martin Luther was at the helm of this ship. "Jesus Christ is the object of OUR faith" is a humanistic exaltation.
Walker
John 3:16 is as clear as looking
through a piece of glass..."that whosoever BELIEVES in Him (Jesus Christ)
would not perish but have everlasting life." So what you all are saying
is...regardless of that word BELIEVE being there...Jesus' grace alone is what
saves us whether we believe or not. Then I ask this question, if that is true
then why would anyone need to believe in Him to begin with? They are saved even
though they don't want to be, or don't even know they are. That then negates
the entire bible if that is your point.
Sing
F Lau
People's idea about John 3:16 always
makes chuckle!|||
Clayton, if you are willing to learn a bit, I would tell you a little bit about John 3:16.
VERY many take John 3:16 as making an offer of salvation to those (necessarily without salvation yet, thus dead in trespasses and sins) who will believe.
A few believe John 3:16 is making a declaration about those who believe - they POSSESS everlasting life. Such have been given eternal life FREELY by God's grace which explains why they are believing. The believing ones HAVE eternal life.
John 3:16 is an offer of salvation to whosoever (without salvation, i.e. the dead in trespasses and sins) will believe.
John 3;16 is a declaration about the believing ones - such HAVE, POSSESS everlasting life. How? God so loved them in His Son that He FREELY gives them eternal life, and that eternal life manifests itself in believing Jesus Christ.
The different between the two views can be reduced to these:
An offer of life to the dead: whoever eat will have life.
A declaration about those who eats: they HAVE life.
Clayton, with that, I will leave you alone now.
May the Spirit of Christ give you understanding.
Clayton, if you are willing to learn a bit, I would tell you a little bit about John 3:16.
VERY many take John 3:16 as making an offer of salvation to those (necessarily without salvation yet, thus dead in trespasses and sins) who will believe.
A few believe John 3:16 is making a declaration about those who believe - they POSSESS everlasting life. Such have been given eternal life FREELY by God's grace which explains why they are believing. The believing ones HAVE eternal life.
John 3:16 is an offer of salvation to whosoever (without salvation, i.e. the dead in trespasses and sins) will believe.
John 3;16 is a declaration about the believing ones - such HAVE, POSSESS everlasting life. How? God so loved them in His Son that He FREELY gives them eternal life, and that eternal life manifests itself in believing Jesus Christ.
The different between the two views can be reduced to these:
An offer of life to the dead: whoever eat will have life.
A declaration about those who eats: they HAVE life.
Clayton, with that, I will leave you alone now.
May the Spirit of Christ give you understanding.
Sing
F Lau
Those already saved by the grace of
God in Jesus Christ are called to believe the truth of their salvation...
Eph 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise...
Why would anyone to believe in Jesus Christ to begin with? Good question Clayton, if it is not a belligerent rhetorical question.
Such need to believe in Jesus Christ because (those already saved by the free grace of God) it is their duty to believe the truth of their salvation.
Why would a child need to believe that man as his father? Because he is his father. And believing in the truth will bring much blessings to the child. Believing did not cause the child to be conceive and born - i.e. SAVED like you IMAGINED!
Eph 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise...
Why would anyone to believe in Jesus Christ to begin with? Good question Clayton, if it is not a belligerent rhetorical question.
Such need to believe in Jesus Christ because (those already saved by the free grace of God) it is their duty to believe the truth of their salvation.
Why would a child need to believe that man as his father? Because he is his father. And believing in the truth will bring much blessings to the child. Believing did not cause the child to be conceive and born - i.e. SAVED like you IMAGINED!
Sing
F Lau
A man is called to believe what is
already true. He is not called to believe something which is not yet true to
make it come true!
Sing
F Lau
Clayton asked:
"Sing F Lau, so are you suggesting that you have to add works to your faith?"
=======
Sorry I overlooked the question. No, I'm not suggesting any such thing. But since you asked, let me tell you this very plainly.
Faith, believing in Jesus Christ, is WORK. W O R K, work. Christ himself said it. You don't believe it, do you?
Jhn 6:28-29
Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
They inquired what works does God want them to DOOOOOOOOOOOO? DOOOOOOOOOOing is work.
This is the work (singular, first and foremost and chief, they inquired about PLURAL works, but Christ remind them "first thing first) God wants you to DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO - believe on him whom God had sent.
Is it any clearer?
So to answer you question - it is Clayton Walker who ADDS works to God's grace in salvation.
"Sing F Lau, so are you suggesting that you have to add works to your faith?"
=======
Sorry I overlooked the question. No, I'm not suggesting any such thing. But since you asked, let me tell you this very plainly.
Faith, believing in Jesus Christ, is WORK. W O R K, work. Christ himself said it. You don't believe it, do you?
Jhn 6:28-29
Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
They inquired what works does God want them to DOOOOOOOOOOOO? DOOOOOOOOOOing is work.
This is the work (singular, first and foremost and chief, they inquired about PLURAL works, but Christ remind them "first thing first) God wants you to DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO - believe on him whom God had sent.
Is it any clearer?
So to answer you question - it is Clayton Walker who ADDS works to God's grace in salvation.
Sing F Lau
Clayton asked "So if Brother
Sing F Lau says they had to be taught in order to believe...then I ask ANOTHER
question....explain what happened on the day of Pentecost? 3,000 believed THAT
DAY and were saved.”
Who were they? Act 2:5 "And
there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under
heaven." These are God's children - Jews whom God has SAVED, i.e.
regenerated. That's what brought them to Jerusalem to worship God. There were
SPIRITUAL Jews. They heard the truth of their salvation in Jesus Christ, that
Jesus Christ is their Messiah God had provided. They believed the truth of
their salvation. But their salvation HAD TAKEN PLACED before they believed. It
is their PRIOR salvation by God's free grace that make their believing possible.
Hey, Mr Clayton Walker, a dead man must be quickened and given life first before he can be a walker. Otherwise he remains a lifeless ton of clay! You understand this simple truth or not???????????? Do I need to explain further? "
Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?"
Hey, Mr Clayton Walker, a dead man must be quickened and given life first before he can be a walker. Otherwise he remains a lifeless ton of clay! You understand this simple truth or not???????????? Do I need to explain further? "
Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?"
Walker
Brother Sing...as you said....I am
going to leave you alone sir. You quoted scriptures that contradicted your very
comment that faith is not implied or even necessary for salvation, even though,
as you quoted Ephesians 1:13...which says the word of truth was preached, and
at that point the people trusted...which is synonymous with the word
faith...the very thing you are saying is not necessary.
It is clear that we are not going to come to an agreement on this topic, so sir you continue to believe what you will, and I will do the same.
You have a blessed day.
It is clear that we are not going to come to an agreement on this topic, so sir you continue to believe what you will, and I will do the same.
You have a blessed day.
