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In Socratic teaching we focus on
giving students questions, not answers.
As a tactic and approach,
Socratic questioning is a highly disciplined process.
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Learn from leading questions!
An Elder "inquired"
Jesus is in a physical, resurrected body now.
- Does he need a physical place to dwell? Doesn't the heaven in which we will dwell already exist? If we are going to where Jesus is, then why does there need to be a new earth and new heaven at the end?
A fellow Elder responded
You said: Jesus is in a physical, resurrected body now. Does he need a physical place to dwell?
My thoughts: I wouldn't say it is a need or necessity, but it is a possibility. Like Elijah and Enoch, I'm sure they are able to exist in paradise in bodily form. But my thoughts on this are not built on reasoning but on the specific texts of 2 Peter 3 and the language contained therein.
You said: Doesn't the heaven in which we will dwell already exist?
My thoughts: Where God dwells, paradise, certainly exists.
You said: If we are going to where Jesus is, then why does there need to be a new earth and new heaven at the end?
My thoughts: I would not consider it a thing of necessity, but more of God's determining purpose. We could really ask why concerning all of God's redemptive acts. How then is it new? It could just be new to us in way of experience. Existing in glorified bodies in the very presence of God would certainly be new to us. I personally lean towards it being a completely new existence as well as experience. I liken this principle to that of hell and the lake of fire. Hell seems to be the temporary place of punishment for the non-elect. After the resurrection and general judgement the non-elect, death, the devil, the devil's angels, and hell will all be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:14, Matthew 25:41). Like brother Invincible, I am not completely opposed to the idea that the elect will just be floating in the clouds, I just lean toward a different direction on this one because the language in certain portions of scripture say to much to be referring to something else.
It seems that the problem may arise in our minds because both Peter and Paul are using the finite to describe the infinite. This would be like be trying to describe airplanes, computers, tanks, etc. to people in the dark ages. I would have to use phenomenological language to describe what I saw and there would be some amount of a language gap. Likewise, there are certain incommunicable attributes of eternity that we cannot fully understand until we personally experience them. I am very thankful to know that whether my interpretation of 2 Peter 3 is correct or wrong, I will enjoy eternity no less because of those errors. And that is truly pleasing.
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My observation
As far as I can trace from all the exchanges on this particular thread "New heavens and new earth", that's the only response to the questions posed.
I have a gut feeling that despite the sincere attempt in responding to the questions, the Elder not only has failed (or has avoided) to answer the questions but has also entirely missed the obvious implication wisely intended by the inquirer!
Jesus is in a physical, resurrected body now. Does he need a physical place to dwell? Doesn't the heaven in which we will dwell already exist? If we are going to where Jesus is, then why does there need to be a new earth and new heaven at the end?
Do you see the implication of those questions on our understanding of the term "the new heavens and new earth"? Let me assist, if I may, to make it a wee bit plainer.
The man Christ Jesus (a), in His resurrected and glorified state, is now in heaven, and at the very right hand of God (b). Where the man Christ Jesus now is, is exactly the same place where all His redeemed people shall be when they are similarly resurrected and glorified.(c,d).
(a) 1Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
(b) 1Pet 3:22Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
(c) John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
(d) 1Th 5:9-10 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
With the plain truth stated above, let's answer the questions, and state the OBVIOUS point intended by those questions. I always insist that when questions are asked, people must actually answer the questions. But there is always a way to answer and yet avoiding the question at the same time.
Let me attempt to actually answer the questions.
Q. Does he need a physical place to dwell?
A. Where the glorified man Christ Jesus presently dwell is NOT a physical place. Therefore, the resurrected man Christ Jesus DOES NOT need a physical place to dwell.
Q. Doesn't the heaven in which we will dwell already exist?
A. The heaven in which we shall dwell and live together with Christ after the resurrection to glory is the heaven where Christ Jesus presently dwells. Therefore the heaven in which we shall dwell already exist.
Q. If we are going to where Jesus is, then why does there need to be a new earth and new heaven at the end?
A. We the redeemed are going to be with Jesus, where He now is. The heaven where the man Christ Jesus now is is already perfectly suited for the gloried man Christ Jesus. The same place is therefore perfectly suited for His glorified saints after their glorification at resurrection. Therefore, there is NO NEED of a new heaven and new earth at the end of the world.
I suspect that is the CONCLUSION those questions were intended by the astute inquirer for a student to draw and conclude. If that is the right conclusion, then how does that conclusion AFFECT our view and understanding on the meaning of the "new heavens and a new earth" (or its slight variations) used in the Scriptures?
How are we to understand them? May the Author of the Scriptures give each student of God's word grace to gird up the loin of his mind to understand, and know the truth.
I hope I have truly answered the questions. My true attempt DOES NOT mean the answers are necessarily correct. It does mean that I have honestly attempted to answer the questions.
I do hate it when my questions are avoided with platitudes and shibboleths! (I didn't ask the above questions). I fear that often shrewd folks avoid answering questions because they know that answering them will expose the inherent contradictions or inadequacy or fallacy in the views they believe and defend.
What do you think?
A. The heaven in which we shall dwell and live together with Christ after the resurrection to glory is the heaven where Christ Jesus presently dwells. Therefore the heaven in which we shall dwell already exist.
Q. If we are going to where Jesus is, then why does there need to be a new earth and new heaven at the end?
A. We the redeemed are going to be with Jesus, where He now is. The heaven where the man Christ Jesus now is is already perfectly suited for the gloried man Christ Jesus. The same place is therefore perfectly suited for His glorified saints after their glorification at resurrection. Therefore, there is NO NEED of a new heaven and new earth at the end of the world.
I suspect that is the CONCLUSION those questions were intended by the astute inquirer for a student to draw and conclude. If that is the right conclusion, then how does that conclusion AFFECT our view and understanding on the meaning of the "new heavens and a new earth" (or its slight variations) used in the Scriptures?
I hope I have truly answered the questions. My true attempt DOES NOT mean the answers are necessarily correct. It does mean that I have honestly attempted to answer the questions.
I do hate it when my questions are avoided with platitudes and shibboleths! (I didn't ask the above questions). I fear that often shrewd folks avoid answering questions because they know that answering them will expose the inherent contradictions or inadequacy or fallacy in the views they believe and defend.
What do you think?
