Things New and Old

Ancient truths revealed in the Scriptures are often forgotten, disbelieved or distorted, and therefore lost in the passage of time. Such ancient truths when rediscovered and relearned are 'new' additions to the treasury of ancient truths.

Christ showed many new things to the disciples, things prophesied by the prophets of old but hijacked and perverted by the elders and their traditions, but which Christ reclaimed and returned to His people.

Many things taught by the Apostles of Christ have been perverted or substituted over the centuries. Such fundamental doctrines like salvation by grace and justification have been hijacked and perverted and repudiated by sincere Christians. These doctrines need to be reclaimed and restored to God's people.

There are things both new and old here. "Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things"
2Ti 2:7.

Wednesday, October 23, 2013

John 3:16 - conditional or declarative?

Rudyard Kipling wrote a short poem outlining a powerful set of questions:

I Keep Six Honest Serving-Men

I keep six honest serving-men
(They taught me all I knew);
Their names are What and Why and When
And How and Where and Who.
I send them over land and sea,
I send them east and west;
But after they have worked for me,
I give them all a rest.

I let them rest from nine till five,
For I am busy then,
As well as breakfast, lunch, and tea,
For they are hungry men.
But different folk have different views;
I know a person small-
She keeps ten million serving-men,
Who get no rest at all!

She sends'em abroad on her own affairs,
From the second she opens her eyes-
One million Hows, two million Wheres,
And seven million Whys!

I went to Gmail archive to search for something, and came across these interesting exchanges more than 10 years ago, in Aug 2003!  Enjoy yourself.


On August 2003, sing posted a mail
(This was the time I when I began to read and study the Bible for myself... when I began to ask a whole lots of questions... sending out Kipling's six honest serving men)

Dear brethren,
Someone who is proficient in Greek, could you please parse the various verbs used in John 3:16. I am also wondering, is John 3:16 a declarative statement about salvation, or a proposal or invitation or offer for salvation?

desiring to learn,
sing

post 2 ------- M W Fenison reply:
Dear Brother,
There are five Aorist verbs and one present tense participle in this verse. Among the verbs there are three indicative moods and two subjunctive moods. The active subject of the first two Aorist verbs is God. God loved, God gave His Son. God's love for the world is the cause for God giving. The subject of the third Aorist verb is the believer (the one believing HE shall not perish).

The indicative mood verbs state a completed act in the past by God - God loved, God gave. The Greek preposition "hina" indicates a purpose clause that grammatically defines the purpose for God's actions. Hence, what God did was for a stated purpose. The subjunctive mood verbs define the purposes "might not perish" but "might have eternal life." Grammatically, the present tense participle introduced by the "hina" preposition defines the single condition for obtaining the two subjunctive
verb purposes for God's action.

John 3:16 is a PROVISIONAL ACTION taken by God for the purpose to obtain one positive and one negative stated purposes CONDITIONED upon one action by man - believing.  If you think this is poor exegesis then consider the statement Jesus uses to introduce verse 16. Verse 15 is intended by Christ to be used as a basis for what he is saying in verse 16.  God PROVIDED Israel with the brazen serpent so that if anyone looked upon it they MIGHT NOT perish. Again this text indicates PROVISIONAL ACTION by God based upon one condition (LOOK) in order to possess life and avoid death.

 The following verses (vv. 17-21) list reasons why men will NEVER of their own accord partake of this provision.  This determined resistance is the reason Jesus opens up this section by the need of the NEW BIRTH (vv. 3-7) and the Sovereign work of the Holy Spirit (v. 8).

 I personally believe that John 3:16 states God's purpose for giving His Son as a PROVISION for the world conditioned upon believing IN ORDER to obtain life and avoid death. I use it as an invitation without reserve and yet at the same time I point out the fact that those listening will never partake of that provision due to their sinful nature which God must first deal with by the new birth according to His sovereign will.

There is no such thing as unregenerated believers nor regenerated unbelievers. The Greek Grammar in I John 5:1 demands that the new birth and believing are simultaneous actions in regard to chronology but that new birth precedes belief in regard to logic.

Bro. Mark

==========

[sing: I may not be Greek proficient, but I do have some fair endowment of common sense. Consider this statement: John 3:16 is a PROVISIONAL ACTION taken by God for the purpose to obtain one positive and one negative stated purposes CONDITIONED upon one action by man - believing.
What is the use of God making such a great provision of eternal life in His Son Jesus Christ for those dead in trespasses and sins, who are in enmity against God, and completely incapable of believing? Didn't Christ state categorically, "Except a man be born again, he CANNOT...?" Life precedes the activities of that life; the giving of eternal life must precede the act of believing." You don't need any Koine Greek or Classical Chinese to know that, do you?

Common sense tells me that John 3:16 is a declaration of "God so loved..." that He gives eternal life to sinners dead in trespasses and sins, and the evidence/manifestation of God having "so loved" is the believing ones in Jesus Christ.

If God has only offered eternal life, OBVIOUSLY to those don't have eternal life yet, to those dead in trespasses and sins, calling them to believe in order to have eternal life, THEN God has NOT loved at all, much less "so loved." It is the reverse, offering life to the dead on the condition that the dead perform an act to get that life IS A WICKED DEED, it is mocking the dead, it is taunting the dead, it is not loving, it is cruel. 


What if I tell you, "whoever eats has life," will you take it as a statement of fact about the whoever eats, or will you take it as an offer of life to the dead on the condition that he, the dead, eats?


HOW STUPID [i.e. lacking common sense] CAN ONE GETS]



post 3 ------ T Anderson joined in
Greetings Brer Mark,
We have been discussing whether the Greek, behind 'whosoever believeth', indicate
1. an invitation/condition or
2. is it declaration/discription?

I presented a case for the latter to the 'GreekTheology' discussion group and received a very scholarly reply from a brother who is studying for his doctor's degree in Glasgow. He quotes from the famous Greek Theologian Daniel B. Wallace and from the Expositor's Greek NT. Interestingly enough, he is of the Arminian persuasion, and mistakenly assumes I am the same. So, I was certainly not seeking predjudicial support from those of my brethern of like faith. Below is his posting, and, below that is my original posting that he responded to.

From:   E Foster
Date:  Wed Aug 6, 2003  11:47 am
Subject:  Re: [greektheology] descriptive language of John 3:16

Greetings Toby,
You've done some nice research here and I am pretty much in agreement with what you type. "Whosoever believeth" (a substantive) is evidently descriptive and not, per se, a condition to be met. In other words, while I think we'd both agree that one must believe in ("exercise faith" NWT) in Christ Jesus in order to obtain eternal or everlasting life, I don't think that John is putting forth  a divine condition that has to be accepted in Jn 3:16.

The Expositor's Greek NT states:
"The thought of these verses [i.e. Jn 3:16-21] are explanatory rather than progressive" (1:717).

Notice that this source says that Jn 3:16ff is "explanatory," suggesting that it is, as you say, declarative or descriptive.

Daniel B. Wallace also writes:
"PAS hO PISTEUWN" - Everyone who believes

The idea seems to be both gnomic and continual:'everyone who continually believes.' This is not due
to the present tense only, but to the use of the present participle of PISTEUW, especially in soteriological contexts in the NT" (GGBB, 620-621).

Thanks for your post, my friend.

Pax tibi,
Edgar

--- kjvonly21 wrote:
Greetings All,
I would like to present a few of my thoughts by you in regards to  the 'whosever believeth' of John 3:16.

Some participles remind me of the movie, 'dance with wolves', wherein  the Indians dubbed Kevin Costner as 'he who dances with wolf' or  merely 'dance with wolves'. An example of such is Rom 4:5 where TW  ERGAZOMENW is translated 'him that worketh' and TON DIKAIOUNTA is translated 'him that justifieth'. The blueletter bible classifies both as participles.

If I said: "Whoever dances with wolves, has a brave soul."; then it should be obvious that one must possess a brave soul before one dare dance with a wolf. The subject term 'whoever dances with  wolves', is not a condition to 'get' a brave soul; rather, it is a  descriptive or declarative term.

In light of this, consider the subject term:'whosoever believeth' in  John 3:16 which comes from the
Greek.

PAS hO PISTENWN
Friberg's 'Analytical Greek New Testament' classifies:
1. PISTENWN as VPPANM-S; -- The 'V' is for VERB, PP is present  participle.
2. PAS as AP-NM-S; -- the AP is for 'Pronominal Adjective'
3. hO as DNMS - APRNM-S; -- the AP is for 'Pronominal Adjective'

PISTENWN is a present participle and Robertson says that: 'usually  the present participle is merely descriptive.' (More on this in a  bit..).

Normally, a participle, is:
"a word having the characteristics of both verb and adjective;  especially : an English verbal form that has the function of an  adjective and at the same time shows such verbal features as tense  and voice and capacity to take an object"  -- Merriam-Webster Dict.

So, why do I say that 'whosoever believeth' is a 'subject term'?

Well, all 3 words are linked together with Friberg's 'M-S'  classification. The 'M-S', in all three words, means masculine and  singular. Masculine refers to people; while single indicates one person. However, when combined with the Greek word 'PAS', a  COLLECTIVE noun is implied, IMHO. Hence, the 'subject' is built into the participle word endings. So too with the pronominal adjectives.

A  pronominal adjective is an adjective which represents the pronoun as understood, hence, 'Blood? I gave some.' THe 'some' means 'some  blood.'

Another reason, that I believe 'whosoever believeth'is the subject  term, is that the 'hO' is being used as an ARTICLE and A.T. Robertson  says that a 'present participle..with the article ... loses much of  it's verbal force.' and that 'usually the present participle is  merely descriptive.'

This indicates that 'whosoever believeth' is 'merely descriptive',  i.e. a declaration, and NOT an invitation or a condition to be met.

Here is a fuller quote of the famous A.T.Robertson:

'A Grammar of the Greek New Testament', A.T.Robertson, 1934, Page 891, chapter 18, 'Tense':

-----------------------------------
"5. Participle. The present participle...
(a) The time of the present participle Relative. ...
(b) Futuristic. ...
(c) Descriptive. But usually the present participle is merely descriptive. Cf. Mk 1:4; Act 20:9; 2 Cor 3:18; 4:18....
(g) With the article. The present particel has often the iterative  (cf. present indicative) sense. So hO KLEPTWN (Eph 4:28)= 'the  rogue.' Cf. hO KATALUWN (Mt. 27:40); OI ZETOUNTES (2:20). The part.  with the article sometimes loses much of its verbal force (Moulton,  Prol., p. 127; ...). So in Gal 4:27, E OU TIKTOUSA, E OUK  WDINOUSA."
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for letting me share my thoughts.

Any comments of agreement or disagreement would be appreciated.

a zoe lithoi,
Toby

post 4 --------- Toby interacted with Mark's post
Mark: There are five Aorist verbs and one present tense participle in this verse. Among the verbs there are three indicative moods and two subjunctive moods.  The active subject of the first two Aorist verbs is God. God loved, God gave His Son. God's love for the world is the cause for God giving. The subject of the third Aorist verb is the believer (the one believing HE shall not perish).

Toby: No sir. It's SHOULD, not SHALL. Shall is future. 'Should' is the past tense of SHALL. The Greek tenses has:
'the one believing' - present active participle
'should not perish' - second aorist middle subjunctive.
'have everlasting life' - present active subjunctive

The second aorist comes before the present participle. The person was saved from perishing, and then he/she believed.

Mark: The Greek preposition "hina" indicates a purpose clause that grammatically defines the purpose for God's actions. Hence, what God did was for a stated purpose.

Toby: yes..

Mark: The subjunctive mood verbs define the purposes "might not perish" but "might have eternal life."

Toby: It's 'should'. Both 'should' and 'might', grammatically can be used in subjunctive clauses. However, you could say: "Mike punched Sam that he might get a black eye.' ..and the meaning would still be purpose.

If one wanted a subjunctive clause of condition (and these do exist), then grammatically, the MAY word should be used. MAY shows condition, MIGHT and SHOULD show purpose.

Mark: Grammatically, the present tense participle introduced by the "hina" preposition defines the single condition for obtaining the two subjunctive verb purposes for God's action.

Toby: Why so? Are you saying that every time a present tense participle is used, that it means 'condition'? The 'hina' is occurs twice, and was translated as that twice. If the second subjunctive clause is conditional, then so be the first.

The 'should not perish' (second aorist) action come before the 'believe' (present participle). Hence, 'the believing' action can not be a condition, but rather, it can only be a result.

The blueletter bible says that 'should not perish' is also subjunctive; hence, God gave His son for the purpose that His people should not perish, and as a result, some believe. You can tell who God's people are because whosoever believeth have everlasting life, not get everlasting life.

John 3:16 is a declaration.

Toby

post 5 --------  R Angusray joined in
Hello Brother Toby,
I believe the context supports John 3:16 as a declaration. The Context starts at John 2:23 and is connected in the original to 3:1 by "and" or "now".  In John 2:23 we are told that many believed when they saw the miracles but in 2:24 it says that "Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men, and needed not that any should testify of man; for he knew what was in man."   They believe because they saw the miracles but the context implies that they were not regenerated.  This is reinforced in the context with "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." A work of God. John 3:16 must be interpreted by the context of the John 2:23."Now when he was in Jerusalem..."  Application is another thing altogether.

Bro. Ray

post 6 ------- Toby replied Ray

Greetings Brer Ray,
Nice to talk to you. Those were nice contextual points. The John 2:23 one was excellent. I was brought up in a Missionary Baptist church and school and every week I heard John 3:16; but very rarely was Nicodemus' every preached. They explained 'Ye must be born again' as meaning 'ye must' REPENT and BELIEVE. So, now, I ask my kids, before you were born the first time (physically), did you have to believe first?

John 3:8   The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Toby

post 7 ---------- Mark rebutted Toby

Dear Bro. Toby,
I believe that the present active participle acts as the subject of both the second aorist subjunctive and the present active subjunctive verb.  The subjunctives are in contrast to each other as descriptive culminations for every believing one. I believe the proper rule is that the action of the participle if present tense denotes simultaneous action with the action of the verb. I know this to be the case in I Jn. 5:1 where "believeth" occurs in the present tense and "born" occurs in the Aorist. The tense of the
participle if it was future would occur after the action of the verb, if aorist would occur prior to the action of the verb or if present would denote simultaneous action with the verb.
Bro. Mark

post 8 ------------ Toby responded

Greetings Brer Mark,
Mark: I believe that the present active participle acts as the subject of both the second aorist subjunctive and the present active subjunctive verb.

I agree. A.T. Robertson says that the present participle is 'usually the present participle is merely descriptive.'  (More on this in a bit..)

The English phrase: 'whosoever believeth' comes from the Greek PAS hO PISTENWN

Friberg's 'Analytical Greek New Testament' classifies:
1.  PISTENWN as VPPANM-S; -- The 'V' is for VERB, PP is present participle.
2.  PAS as AP-NM-S; -- the AP is for 'Pronominal Adjective'
3. hO as DNMS - APRNM-S; -- the AP is for 'Pronominal Adjective'

A pronominal adjective is an adjective which represents the pronoun as understood, hence, 'Blood? I gave some.' THe 'some' means 'some blood.'

The 'M-S' is in all three words, means masculine and singular. Masculine refers to people; while single indicates one person. Hence, the 'subject' is built into the Verb word ending.

The 'hO' is being used as an ARTICLE.

Normally, a participle, is: "a word having the characteristics of both verb and adjective; especially : an English verbal form that has the function of an adjective and at the same time shows such verbal features as tense and voice and capacity to take an object" -- Merriam-Webster Dict.

However, A.T. Robertson says that a 'present participle..with the article ... loses much of it's verbal force.' and that 'usually the present participle is merely descriptive.'

This indicates that 'whosoever believeth' is 'merely descriptive', i.e. a declaration, and NOT an invitation.

Here is a fuller quote of the famous A.T.Robertson:

'A Grammar of the Greek New Testament', A.T.Robertson, 1934, Page 891, chapter 18, 'Tense':
------------------------------------------------------------------
"5. Participle. The present participle...
(a) The time of the present participle Relative.  ...
(b) Futuristic.  ...
(c) Descriptive.  But usually the present participle is merely descriptive. Cf. Mk 1:4; Act 20:9; 2 Cor 3:18; 4:18....
(g) With the article. The present particel has often the iterative (cf. present indicative) sense. So hO KLEPTWN (Eph 4:28)= 'the rogue.' Cf. hO KATALUWN (Mt. 27:40); OI ZETOUNTES (2:20). The part.with the article sometimes loses much of its verbal force (Moulton, Prol., p. 127; ...).  ..So in Gal 4:27, E OU  TIKTOUSA, E OUK WDINOUSA."
------------------------------------------------------------------

Toby

post 10 ------------ Mark responded

Dear Bro. Toby,
What I was getting out was the rule concerning participles with primary verbs. My fifth year Greek Professor taught me that in such cases the action of the participle, in this case "whosoever believeth (Present active) occurs simultaneous with the action of the verb, in this case "should not perish" (Aorist subjunctive). For example, IF the tense of the participle were past tense then the action of the participle would precede the action of the verb REGARDLESS what tense the verb is found in. If the tense of the participle is future then the action of the participle would occur AFTER the action of the verb REGARDLESS of the tense of the verb. Since the participle in question is found in the
 present tense, then the action of the participle occurs SIMULTANEOUS with the action of the verb REGARDLESS of the tense the verb is found in.  Hence, the correct idea here is that the action of believing does not occur AFTER the action of "should not perish" but simultaneous with it.  The point John would be making is that simultaneous with the action of believing eternal life began and eternal perishing was settled once and for all - punctiliar action in the Aorist. Bro. Toby how much formal Greek training have you had? Where and under who if you don't mind me asking?

Bro. Mark

post 11 --------- Toby replied

Greetings Brer Mark,
Mark: The action of the participle, in this case "whosoever believeth"  (Present active) occurs simultaneous with the action of the verb

Toby: This point applies to many 'present participles', however, I don't believe it applies to this case because the greek participle in this case, is preceeded by the article 'hO'.

Your point is covered in subpoint (a.) in the A.T. Robertson section I gave in my last posting (I did not type it out in full). however, inasmuch as the present participle' in John 3:16, is accompanied with the article, then your point does not apply, rather my point under subpoint (g) applies. That is, when the present participle is used 'with the article sometimes loses much of its verbal force'. 2 examples used, in this subpoint, use the 'hO' article before the present participle.

Further, I must restate my point, that subpoint (c) makes:

'(c) Descriptive. But usually the present participle is merely  descriptive. Cf. Mk 1:4; Act 20:9; 2 Cor 3:18; 4:18.'

Re-Look at Robertson's quote, but this time I'll type out (a) in full. 'A Grammar of the Greek New Testament', A.T.Robertson, 1934, Page  891, chapter 18, 'Tense':
------------------------------------------------------------------
"5. Participle. The present participle...
(a) The time of the present participle Relative. The time comes from the principal verb. Thus in PWLOUNTES EPHERON (Ac. 4.34. CF. PWLESAS ENEGKEN in verse 37) the time is past; in MEREMNWN DUNATAI (Mt 6:27) the time is present; in ESESTHE MISOUMENOI (Mt. 10:22), O BLEPWN APODWSEI (Mt. 6:18), OPHONTAI TON UION TOU ANTHRWPOU ERCHOMENON (24:30) it is future. Cf. Mt. 24:46; Lu 5:4; 12:43. Further examples of the pres. part. of conincident action are seen in Mt. 27:41; Mk. 16:20; Jo 6:6; 21:19; Ac 9:22; 10:44; 19:9.
(b) Futuristic. ...
(c) Descriptive. But usually the present participle is merely  descriptive. Cf. Mk 1:4; Act 20:9; 2 Cor 3:18; 4:18. ...
(g) With the article. The present particel has often the iterative (cf. present indicative) sense. So hO KLEPTWN (Eph 4:28)= 'the  rogue.' Cf. hO KATALUWN (Mt. 27:40); OI ZETOUNTES (2:20). The part. with the article sometimes loses much of its verbal force (Moulton,  Prol.,
p. 127; ...). ..So in Gal 4:27, E OU TIKTOUSA, E OUK  WDINOUSA."
------------------------------------------------------------------

Mark: Bro. Tobby, how much formal Greek training have you had?  Where and under who if you don't mind me asking?

Toby: I am self-taught, and hopefully, Holy-Spirit taught. I wish I would have taken the opportunity to have been taught. I do have a couple greek discussion groups which I, from time to time, run my ideas by, and I am doing so on this subject. I will let you know the result.

I'll be gone on vacation, so I won't be able to respond for the next week. But I look forward to your reply.

May Jesus bless us lively stones,
Toby

post 12 ------------

1.The Aorist Tense is used for simple, undefined action. In the indicative mood, the aorist tense can indicate punctiliar action (action that happens at a specific point in time) in the past. It must be distinguished from the Imperfect Tense  which denotes continuous action in the past. With few exceptions, whenever the aorist tense is used in any mood other than the indicative, the verb does not have any temporal significance. In other words, it refers only to the reality of an event or action, not to the time when it took place.

2. The Indicative Mood makes an assertion of fact and is used with all six Greek tenses. It is the only mood in which distinctions can regularly be made about the time when an action occurs: all' egenemtheMmen épioi en mésoM humón,  "But we were gentle among you" (1 Thess. 2:7).

3. The Participle is a verbal adjective. As such, the participle may function as a verb, noun, or adjective in thesentence. It has a wide range of possible meanings, some of which can only be inferred from the context: ho agathopoiomn ek toú theoú estín, "He that doeth good is of God" (3 John 1:11).

4. The Subjunctive Mood makes an assertion about which there is some doubt, uncertainty, or indefiniteness: eán eípoMmen hóti hamartían ouk échomen, heautoús planommen, "If we say that
we have no sin, we deceive ourselves" (1 John 1:8). It is closely related to the future tense, which helps to explain the fact that often the uncertainty arises only because the action has not yet occurred:
hína lutromseMtai heM más apó páseMs anomías, "that he might redeem us from all iniquity" (Titus 2:14).

5. The Active Voice represents the action as being accomplished by the subject of the verb: árti ginomskoM ek mérous, tóte dé epignomsomai, kathoms kaí epegnomstheMn, "now I know in
part; but then shall I know even as also I am known" (1 Cor. 13:12). In Greek it is to be distinguished from the Middle Voice  and Passive Voice.




Ask questions, and begin to learn!
http://steve-wheeler.blogspot.com/2011/10/always-asking-questions.html
http://thepicturebookteachersedition.blogspot.com/2012/09/the-importance-of-asking-questions.html