indicator |ˈindiˌkātər| - noun, a device providing specific information
on the state or condition of something.
generator |ˈjenəˌrātər| - noun, a thing that generates something.
Vellis
Hi Sing,
I was reading this today and it sounds like what you have been saying... forgive me for being a little slow :) Do let me know if I am reading it correctly.
"If God's decree be eternal and unchangeable, then God does not elect upon our faith foreseen, as the Arminians maintain. 'The children being not yet born, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, it was said, Jacob have I loved, Esau have I hated' (Rom. 9:11). We are not elected for holiness, but to holiness (Eph. 1:4). If we are not justified for our faith, much less are we elected for our faith; but we are not justified for it. We are said to be justified through faith as an instrument in Eph. 2:8, but not for faith as a cause; and, if not justified for faith, then much less elected. God's decree of election is eternal and unchangeable, and therefore depends not upon faith foreseen. 'As many as were ordained to eternal life, believed' (Acts 13:48). They were not elected because they believed, but they believed because they were elected. ~ Thomas Watson
September 24, 2010
Sing F Lau
Brother Vellis, I have read your message.
I will reply later.
Vellis
Thanks Bro Sing... I look forward to it.
Sing F Lau
Brother Vellis, I am not exactly sure what Thomas Watson is saying, and whether I have understood him correctly. He is not around for me to inquire and ascertain a bit more.
I will leave a few comments and may be a few questions.
The first sentence - "If God's decree be eternal and unchangeable, then God does not elect upon our faith foreseen, as the Arminians maintain" - is quite straight forward, and if I understand correctly, I completely agree with him. The decree of election is "according to the good pleasure of God's will... according to the riches of God's grace... according to God's good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself... according to the purpose of God who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will... according to the working of God mighty power..." Eph 1 --- it is as if God knew the lie that would be embraced by the Arminians would arise!
Thomas' logic for the first statement is questionable, however. Just because the decree of election was eternal and unchangeable DOES NOT logically preclude that decree from being based upon foreseen faith. However, the Scriptures simply repudiated foreseen faith as the ground of election... the FIVE 'accordings' in Eph 1 referenced above attribute every aspect of election to God ALONE and nothing of/in those elected.
"We are not elected for holiness, but to holiness (Eph. 1:4)."
- If he meant we are not elected because of our holiness, then he is correct and true.
- We are elected to holiness: I don't know what he meant by this. But this is how I understand it. We are elected to the holiness that is in Christ Jesus, and EVERY elect without exception is elected to the same STATE OF HOLINESS, and that is in Christ Jesus. This has nothing to do with a life of holiness. This is obvious because not all the elect grow up to live a normal life, much less a life of holiness. Please don't misunderstand: a child of God ought to live holy life... but that is not what is mentioned in Eph 1:4. Many misguided people conclude from Eph 1:4 that every child of God will live holy live, because they have been elected to live holy life! If that be true, I conclude that God's election to holy life failed miserable!
"We are said to be justified through faith as an instrument in Eph. 2:8..."
I say Thomas is muddled about the faith in Eph 2:8-9. I wrote this in answer to a certain Larry Sibley who wrote, "I think it is quite plain that man is justified by faith. Period. So how do we know when this faith is authentic? Why, when someone is saved by grace through faith."
My reply. Consider carefully and may the Lord bless you to recover the LOST truth.
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"Salvation is by grace through faith - every one is familiar with the SOUND of those words. Few understand their SENSE. Salvation is indeed by grace - this declares the manner that salvation is free bestowed to those who are under the just condemnation of their sins. But salvation is through WHOSE faith? Through man's act of believing? Why are people so easily carried away by their faith... a grace that the indwelling Spirit worked in them.
Through whose faith? Nearly everyone assume and insist that it is through thier act of believing... yes, they piously attribute their faith to the gift of God... how misguided! Please note these declaration carefully:
Romans 3:
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
v21 - declares the righteousness of God, i.e righteousness of God's provision, righteousness needed for our eternal salvation.
v22 - informs how the righteousness of God is provided... it is through the faith OF Jesus Christ... this righteousness is provided through the FAITHFULNESS of Jesus Christ rendering perfect obedience to the law of God. All modern translations translated that in "it is through the faith IN - IN -IN Jesus Christ."
Righteousness is through the obedience to the law.
Sin is the transgression of the law, and brings condemnation and death.
Justification unto life demands righteousness.
That righteousness is EITHER by a man's own faithful obedience to the law, or by Christ's obedience to the law.
It is NOT - NOT - NOT by your faith!
Sins brings condemnation of death.
Righteousness ALONE brings justification of life, i.e. eternal salvation.
Faith, man's act of believing, DOES NOT brings justification of life, i.e. eternal salvation.
"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation [of death]; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."
v23 - declares the fact that all have not faith, THAT IS - all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God... all have transgressed against the law of God... none of Adam's race excluded... thereore ALL under the condemnation of death. ONLY Christ Jesus did not fall short of the glory of God - through His FAITHFULNESS in obeying perfectly all the laws of God.
v24 - 'the faith OF - OF - OF Jesus Christ' in verse 22 is the same as "the redemption that is in Christ Jesus". Justification is by the free grace of God... bestowed upon the man in the state of condemnation and death WITHOUT him meeting any condition... and that free grace justification is based on the faith OF - OF - OF Christ Jesus, EVEN the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.
How could faith, a fruit and effect of salvation bestowed freely by God's grace at the SAME TIME be the instrument to obtain that same salvation???
============
Faith is NOT an instrument to OBTAIN/RECEIVE justification.
Faith is an instrument to EVIDENCE justification that has taken place by God's free grace.
Faith is ALSO an instrument to EXPERIENCED the blessedness of the justified state by God's free grace.
Breath is an instrument to EVIDENCE that the resuscitation of the dead has taken place place. Breath cannot be an instrument to obtain resuscitation. Insane and misguide men may believe such non-sense. Even so in the matter of justification.
I wrote an article on Eph 2:8-9 here: http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2008/01/saved-by-grace-through-faith-whose.html
Let me continue: Thomas wrote:
'As many as were ordained to eternal life, believed' (Acts 13:48).
What does he mean? I don't know. Does he mean that every elect ordained to eternal life will hear the gospel and profess faith? If he does, that is OBVIOUSLY a plain error that needs no further refutation. Of course he can't possibly mean that... but many modern calvinists will insist believing on that... because of their perversion of this statement.
Acts 13:48 is not a general statement of truth, but a statement describing a particular situation where the gospel was preached. Context, context, and context. As many of the hearers - as many as were ordained to eternal life - there in that PARTICULAR context that heard the gospel did believe... that's all is said.
I have probably written more than you wish to read!
But I don't want to be misunderstood.
Thanks for asking. We are fellow students.
sing
Vellis
Bro. Sing – Thanks for the reply. Your detail is appreciated.
You have been consistently saying that man is justified by grace alone and it does not depend upon faith. Perhaps I misunderstood Watson, but it seems he was driving at the same point. “If we are not justified for our faith, much less are we elected for our faith; but we are not justified for it. We are said to be justified through faith as an instrument in Eph. 2:8, but not for faith as a cause; and, if not justified for faith, then much less elected.” His chief point was concerning the error of arminianism, however it seems he is saying the same thing concerning justification. Otherwise, what would “but not for faith as a cause” mean? It just seems to me that he is driving at the same point of what you are saying… which of course is radically different than what is commonly taught today.
Sing F Lau
Brother Vellis, I believe I appreciate a little more what you are getting at.
You are right, I have been consistently saying that an unjustified man, therefore in the state of condemnation and death, is justified by God freely, i.e. by grace. The UN-justified CANNOT possibly meet any condition, not even faith. A man in the state of condemnation and death can't possibly has faith. But a justified person is able to believe, and his believing is the INSTRUMENT to EVIDENCE his justified state.
This is the STANDARD understanding of the old school calvinists. They made clear distinction between the justification of the condemned that is by the free grace of God (therefore without faith at all), and the justification that is by the believing act of a child of God. They made clear distinction between forensic justification by God's free grace and evidential justification by faith, the believing act of man. [The new school calvinists, being ignorant of this distinction by the old school calvinists, so often misread and misunderstand their writings on justification. Their minds are obsessed with, and poisoned by "justification by faith alone"!]
Believing justifies, certifies, evidences, demonstrates a man that he is a man ALREADY justified freely by God's grace, have eternal life and is a child of God.
That is what he meant by "we are said to be justified through faith as a instrument." I believe, to Watson and the old school Calvinists, an instrument is to indicate or reveal or manifest something, even the JUSTIFIED STATE of a person. This is confirmed by the simple fact that Watson argued, "... we are not justified for our faith."
However, a very subtle and SATANIC perversion has taken place. An instrument which was supposed to indicate or reveal or manifest something is now PERVERTED into an instrument to obtain, secure and get something, even JUSTIFICATION before God.
Let me give an illustration: a volt-meter is an instrument to indicate or reveal or manifest the voltage in a circuit. That's common sense. The new school calvinists has perverted and turned a volt-meter into an instrument to obtain, secure and get voltage into the circuit.
So you see, whenever a new school calvinists read something like that... "justified through faith as an instrument" - they see their faith as the instrument to obtain, secure and get justification before God... and not faith as the instrument to indicate or reveal or manifest the justified state by God's free grace. There is a VAST difference between the two. In the former, the voltmeter functions as the voltage generator in the circuit; in the latter the voltmeter function as a voltage indicator in the circuit.
This statement reflects the STANDARD belief of the OLD school calvinists:
"The reason why any are justified IS NOT because they have faith; but the reason why they have faith IS because they are justified." - in a Circular Letter issued by the old school Philadelphia Baptists Associate in October 4, 1785.
But every new school Calvinist rave and foam madly against this truth when I tell them this.
I was amongst the new school calvinists for 15 years... I know the system inside out! Until I read and studied the Bible for myself... driven to it because I saw too many contradictions and inconsistencies in the new school calvinism.
I have said too much.
May the Lord grant you understanding.
sing
