'Even So' and its implications - Romans 5:18

Romans 5
17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; EVEN SO by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Let me put verse 18 in another format to highlight the parallel:

THEREFORE AS // EVEN SO
by the offence of one // by the righteousness of one
judgment came // the free gift came
upon all men // upon all men
to condemnation // unto justification of life

The phrase 'EVEN SO' in verse 18 informs us that there is an exact and strict parallel in these points:
- Adam as the representative head of the human family // Christ as the representative head of His family.
- Adam's offence affected all those represented by him // Christ's righteousness affected all those represented by him
- Adam brought judgment of the condemnation [of death] // Christ brought the free gift of the justification of life
- The judgment that came upon all men in Adam // The free gift that came upon all men in Christ

Let us consider the strict and exact parallel between Adam, and Christ, the second/last Adam. And then note the mindless inconsistency of the beliefs of some reformed people!




1. One Representative Head of each Family

1a. Therefore as Adam was the one representative head of Adam's family;

Some people dismiss this biblical principle of federal headship in God's dealing with mankind. Of those who do believe this principle, they do so with lip service only. They fail to reflect it consistently in their understanding of the doctrines of imputation and justification.

1b. Even so, Christ is the one representative head of Christ's family!

A remnant of those who do believe this biblical principle and headship in God's dealing with mankind do so with integrity, rightly dividing the word of truth. They reflect this truth consistently in their understanding of the doctrines of imputation and justification.

Romans 5
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


2. The Action of the Representative Head Involved the Whole Family

2a. Therefore as by the offence of the ONE representative head, Adam, came the judgment of condemnation of death upon all men in Adam;

The offence of one alone brought the condemnation of death to all. This imputation of the condemnation of death DOES NOT need the offence of another one. The offence of one alone is all sufficient for this single legal imputation of the condemnation of death to all in Adam.

Many people reject this biblical doctrine of the legal imputation of Adam's sin to all of Adam's posterity at the fall in the garden of Eden. Of those who do believe this, many hold that this legal imputation is individual and personal, and takes place at a man's actual act of transgression.

2b. Even so, by the righteousness of the ONE representative head, Jesus Christ, came the free gift of justification of life upon all men in Christ!

The righteousness of one alone secured justification of life. This imputation of the justification of life DOES NOT need the righteous act of another one. The righteousness of one alone is all sufficient for this single legal imputation of the justification of life to ALL in Christ.

A remnant believes this biblical doctrine of the legal imputation of Christ's righteousness to all of Christ's people. This act of imputation happened once for all to all the people of Christ at the death and resurrection of Christ.

Many Calvinists reject this. They insist that legal imputation takes place ONLY at a man's actual act of faith!


3. The Imputations of the Condemnation of Death, and the Justification of Life

3a. Therefore as the condemnation of death by the offence of one, Adam, was imputed to the whole family of Adam at his act of offence in the garden of Eden:

This act of imputation happened once for all to all the posterity of Adam at the fall. This is LEGAL condemnation by the offence of Adam. This imputation of the condemnation of death is an accomplished LEGAL fact by divine fiat, without man's participation or cooperation in any sense. This imputation of the condemnation of death took place once for all by divine fiat without man's approval or acceptance. The imputation of this condemnation is a fact regardless of whether a man would believe it or not. This imputation is an accomplished legal fact... even though not a single descendant of Adam existed as a personal entity. Legal imputation of the condemnation of death does not require the existence of personal beings. Each member of Adam's family is a legal entity before existing as a personal entity before the foundation of the world. All of them were already legal entities in the mind and purpose of God from before the foundation of the world.

Many people who do believe in the imputation of the condemnation of death believe that it is imputed to a man at his first act of transgression against God's law. That can't possibly be because a man is conceived and born in sins, under the condemnation of death! A man sins because he is conceived and born in sin, under the condemnation of death. A man is not imputed with the condemnation of death because he sinned. Their mantra, "you sin, therefore you are imputed with the condemnation of death" plainly denies the meaning and significance of the 'even so' in the passage under consideration.

3b. Even so, the justification of life by the righteousness of one, Christ, was imputed to the whole family of Christ at His act of righteousness in His death and resurrection!

This act of imputation happened once for all for all the people of Christ at the death and resurrection of Christ. This imputation of the justification of life is an accomplished LEGAL fact by divine fiat, without man's participation or cooperation in any sense. This imputation of the justification of life took place once for all by divine fiat without man's approval or acceptance. The imputation of this justification is a fact regardless of whether a man would believe it or not. This imputation is an accomplished legal fact... even though many of Christ's family did not yet exist as personal entities and many who had personal existence were still dead in trespasses and sins. Legal imputation of justification of life does not require the existence of personal beings. Each member of Christ's family is a legal entity prior to existing as a personal entity before the foundation of the world. All the legal entities' names were entered in the book of life before the foundation of the world.

This is LEGAL justification by the righteousness and blood of Christ. All the sins of all Christ's people were also imputed to Him at the cross. Many people reject or are ignorant of this legal double imputation. Any sin not imputed to Christ and suffered at the cross, is not suffered, nor paid for, nor ever will be! They think that justification of life is imputed to a man at his first act of obedience to the gospel of Christ - those reformed baptists and their cousin Arminians who believe legal justification took place through their believing! Their mantra, "you believe, therefore you are imputed with the justification of life" plainly denies the meaning and significance of the 'even so' in the passage under consideration.

Ro 3:20 "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin." [Sin is transgression of the law, and brings the condemnation of death. Righteousness is obedience to the law and brings the justification of life. Justification in God's sight requires righteousness, even the righteousness of one. It is not your faith.]

Ro 3:22 "Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference." [The righteousness necessary for justification of life, provided by God Himself, is by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ in rendering perfect obedience to the law. God provided for His people a righteousness without them having to render perfect obedience to the law.]

Ro 3:28 "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." [by Christ's faith, His faithfulness in keeping the law, not by man's own faithfulness in keeping the law, nor by man's believing. It is by Christ's deeds of the law. Christ's alone fulfilled all the demands of the law.]

Ro 5:9 "Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him." [Legal justification is by the blood of Christ, His redemptive work, His living, dying and rising for His people.]

Ga 2:16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified." [Legal justification is by either man's own faithfulness in keeping the law, or Christ's faithfulness in keeping the law! It is not by man's act of believing]

Ga 5:4 "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace." [Legal justification is either by your obedience to the law or by Christ's obedience to the law. The alternatives are NOT between your obedience to the law or your faith in Jesus Christ. Sin brings condemnation of death. Righteousness is required for justification of life!]


4. The Applications of the Condemnation of Death, and the Justification of Life

4a. Therefore as this condemnation of death is personally applied at the natural conception of each member of Adam's family;

The personal application of this condemnation requires the actual existence of a personal entity, and that happens at biological conception. A member of Adam's family is conceived and born in sin, with the imputation of the condemnation of death upon him. The condemnation remains personally applied regardless of whether the person believes or accepts that condemnation or not. It was sovereignly applied without his participation, cooperation, approval or rejection. This is VITAL/PERSONAL condemnation by the justice of God. At conception, he is incapable of such acts. He is completely passive in his conception and birth. The reality of that condemnation personally applied remains a fact even if the person rejects or disbelieves it. A man sins because he IS already in the state of condemnation of death. Because of the state of condemnation of death, there is death and slavery to sin.

This is the VITAL/PERSONAL aspect of the condemnation of death. What was legal fact becomes a personal reality, what was legal is now applied personally. Of course many people think that condemnation of death is personally applied to a man at his first act of transgression against God's law. According to their understanding, BEFORE the condemnation of death has been applied, death already reigns in each man! What contradiction, and nonsense. The truth is, each act of sin is a manifestation and evidence of the condemnation of death that was already applied at conception, and actively operating in the person.

4b. Even so, this justification of life is personally applied at the regeneration/new birth of each member of Christ's family!

The personal application of this justification of life requires the actual existence of a personal entity, and that happens at regeneration. A member of Christ's race is regenerated in righteousness upon the imputation of the justification of life. The justification remains personally applied regardless of whether the person believes or accepts that justification or not. It was sovereignly applied without his participation, cooperation, approval or acceptance.

This is VITAL/PERSONAL justification by the grace of God. Being dead in trespasses and sins, he is incapable of any such acts. He is completely passive in his regeneration. The reality of that justification personally applied remains a fact even if the person disbelieves or is ignorant of it. A man believes because he IS in the state of justification of life. Because of the justification of life, there is life and ability to believe the gospel of Jesus Christ. This is VITAL/PERSONAL justification by the grace of God. What was a legal fact becomes a personal reality, what is legal is now applied personally.

Of course very many confused folks think that justification of life is personally applied to a man at his first act of believing the gospel of Jesus Christ. Therefore according to their teaching, BEFORE justification of life has been applied, spiritual life already animates a man; i.e. a man under the condemnation of death, dead in trespasses and sins, has spiritual life to believe in order to have that condemnation removed and the justification of life imputed to him! What contradiction, and nonsense! The truth is, each act of righteousness, like believing, is a manifestation and evidence of the justification of life already applied at effectual calling, and operating in the person. Believing is proof and evidence that justification of life has already been imputed.

Ro 3:24 "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:"
Ro 5:21 "That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord." [Grace reign through Christ's righteousness unto eternal life, through the justification of life by Jesus Christ our Lord.]

Ro 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. [All these divine acts embrace the complete number of God's elect. Not a single one is left out, even those who are completely INCAPABLE of believing are justified too. So it is not justification by your faith that is being spoken of here. It is justification by His grace at effectual calling to grace and eternal salvation.

Tit 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. [When justification of life is applied, an elect is regenerated a child of God, and made heir."

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [The salvation is the gift, through the faith of Jesus Christ, i.e. Christ's faithfulness , and applied to each elect by God's free grace. The grace of faith, which enables a man to believe, is a grace worked within the heart of a child of God.]


5. The Experiences and Evidences of the Condemnation of Death, and the Justification of Life

5a. Therefore as that condemnation of death is experienced (in himself) and evidenced (to others) in each act of transgression against the law of God throughout a man's earthly life;

A man's conscience condemns him for his every transgression against the law of God. His acts of transgression evidence his state of condemnation by God through the offence of Adam. Each actual transgression brings that pang of guilt and condemnation that assures a man that he is a transgressor, and a child of wrath!

This is the EXPERIENTIAL/PRACTICAL aspect of the condemnation of death. Of course many sincere folks mistake this experiential aspect of condemnation as the legal or vital/personal aspect of condemnation. They not only reject the distinction between the legal imputation, the personal application, and the practical experience of the same condemnation of death, they also confuse the practical experiential aspect as the legal aspect.

5b. Even so, that justification of life is experienced (in himself) and evidenced (to others) in each act of righteousness according to the gospel of Christ throughout a man's earthly life!

A man's faith justifies him for his every obedience to the gospel of Christ. His acts of righteousness evidence his state of justification by God through the righteousness of Christ. (Gen 15:6, Ps 10630,31) Each act of righteousness comforts and assures a man that he is a child of God.

This is EXPERIENTIAL/PRACTICAL aspect of the justification of life. The faith of a man justifies, vindicates and evidences his state of justification of life. Of course some folks cannot see the distinct difference between the legal imputation of justification of life by the blood of Christ; the personal application of the justification of life by the grace of God at effectual calling; and the practical experience of the same justification of life by faith. The sum total of their understanding on this subject is 'justification by their faith'. This is the one-fingered hand monstrosity I wrote about before.

Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. [Abraham was already justified by grace when God called him out of Ur in Gen 11. Very many misguided reformed people believe that Abraham prior to Gen 15:6 was still un-justified by God, that he was still under the condemnation of death... since they INSIST that only in Gen 15 that he was legally justified, and that by faith. What monumental and fundamental error! It is here that Abraham, by his faith, experienced the blessedness of his justification by God's grace. He was already justified by grace prior to God's calling him out of Ur.]

Ps 106: 30 Then stood up Phinehas, and executed judgment: and so the plague was stayed. 31 And that was counted unto him for righteousness unto all generations for evermore. [Phinehas experienced the blessedness of his justified state by God's grace through his work of faith. God blessed his work of faith to him to experience his righteous standing before God. Phinehas was justified by God's grace long before this!]

Ro 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. [Faith in Christ justifies a man to claim that he is a child of God through the finished work of Christ. His faith enables him to experience peace with God, his Father through our Lord. ]
Ga 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. [It is evident! It is the just, i.e. the justified ones, legally by the blood Christ, and vitally by the grace of God, who shall live by faith. It is irrational and perverse to twist this to mean, the unjustified ones (still under the condemnation of death) shall live by faith in order to be justified!]

Ga 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. [By faith in Jesus Christ, they can rightly claim and believe that they are God's children, since whoever believes has eternal life, has been born again of God. Because they are children of God, they are able to believe. ]

Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. [Clearly, a man's faith and works justify him in the same way - they both evidence and demonstrate the justified state of the man. His faith and good works inform and assure him that he has the justification of life applied to him by God's grace.]

Mt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. [These words are addressed to disciples, about discipleship. It is not about eternal salvation, which is wholly by grace. The destruction and the life spoken of here are the consequence the disciples will experience depending upon their discipleship. It is PLAIN OBVIOUS that only those possessing eternal life are able to enter through the strait gate and walk the narrow way. It is EQUALLY OBVIOUS that only few of them would choose to enter through the strait gate and walk the narrow way. Many of them often enter the wide gate and walk the broad way. ]


6. The Final Vindications of the Condemnation of Death, and the Justification of Life.

6a. That condemnation of death is finally and completely vindicated on the judgment day.

6b. That justification of life is finally and completely vindicated on the judgment day.

Mt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. [Everlasting fire is the final vindication of their being under the condemnation of death, evidenced by their actual acts of transgression against the law of God. Everlasting fire was prepared before the foundation of the world.]

Rev 20:14-15 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. [Those not written in the book of life were already excluded from it from before the foundation of the world, but now finally vindicated, evidenced by their acts of transgression.]

Mt 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: [The everlasting kingdom was prepared for them from the foundation of the world - was secured by Christ for all His elect in time, was applied personally to each elect at God's appointed and approved time, and experienced when brought to faith through the gospel ministry.]

Mt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


Conclusion: what the Old Baptists said

Let me refer you to this plain statement in the old baptist confession (1689.11.4):

“God did from all eternity decree to justify all the elect, and Christ did in the fullness of time die for their sins, and rise again for their justification; nevertheless, they are not justified personally, until the Holy Spirit doth in time due actually apply Christ unto them."

We have three aspects of the jewel of justification stated here:
1. The justification decreed by God for all the elect from all eternity.
2. The justification accomplished/secured by Christ for all elect in time - i.e. justification accomplished by Christ's blood.
3. The justification applied to each elect personally - i.e. justification applied by God's grace.

When justification is applied to an elect personally, the personal condemnation of death is removed by God, giving warrant for the Holy Spirit to regenerate that elect, and adoption by the Father. These divine acts produce the grace of faith (and many others) in this child of God, enabling him to believe. This leads to the fourth aspect of justification - justification by believer's faith.

I believe it is sound and self-evident that justification applied by grace must precede, and is prior to the justification experienced, and evidenced by faith. A person still under the state of condemnation, i.e. in an un-justified state, can't possibly believe in order for the justification to be applied to him. That is putting the carriage before the engine. I don't see how a person, to whom justification has NOT been personally applied, has the ability to believe. A man still under the condemnation of death, i.e. justification not personally applied, doesn't have the ability to believe. In fact he is in enmity against God!

Also, the justification applied must precede regeneration. Removal of condemnation of death by the justification of life applied by God's free grace gives the ground for the Holy Spirit to regenerate and give eternal life. Eternal life is prerequisite, and must precede, spiritual activities like believing. Believing is an activity of eternal life given at regeneration.

The same old baptist document says this:
"Faith thus receiving and resting on Christ and His righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification; yet it is not alone in the person justified, but ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but worketh by love."

This statement speaks of the fourth aspect of the wholesome justification of life, i.e.

4. The justification experienced, and evidenced by the believer's faith - i.e justification by believer's faith.

The justification spoken of here is the justification by the faith of the believer. It is entirely different from the justification by the grace of God. It says that faith is NOT ALONE in the person justified. This clearly implies that faith is accompanied by other graces in the person justified (simple past tense pointing to simple past action of the justification applied by grace). Faith justifies (simple present tense) the believer. Faith is (simple present tense) the alone instrument to experience the justified state (justification applied, once for all) by God's grace. By faith in Jesus Christ, a believer experience the blessedness of his justified state. By faith, as well as works of righteousness, he also evidences, gives proof to, his justified state.

To fail to distinguish justification applied by grace, and justification experienced, and evidenced by faith has one serious difficulty. It is teaching that a sinner under condemnation (unjustified state, justification not applied) is capable of faith in order to have justification applied to him. Nearly all the churches in the world believe this idea - the Arminians as well as the Calvinists!

The New Baptists who claim to embrace the same old confession, not only are confused with the truth that are plainly stated in this chapter of the Old Baptists' confession, but they also deny so much of what is declared there.

Therefore as the Arminians deny the doctrine of grace, even so the Calvinists deny justification by grace.

Therefore just as the Arminians believe justification by [their] faith, even so the Calvinists also believe the same.

Therefore as the Arminians are in the left ditch of the Justification Freeway, even so the Calvinists are in the right ditch of the same broad Freeway.

Both are off the Justification Freeway, both are in the ditches!

Therefore just as the Arminians missed the two simple words, EVEN SO the Calvinists messed them up too.

"Therefore as
by the offence of one
judgment came
upon all men
to condemnation;
EVEN SO
by the righteousness of one
the free gift came
upon all men
unto justification of life."
===========

Read a similar article here by another author: Sin and Righteousness - Imputed and Imparted

The five solas, sola vs solo/nuda, etc.

Bruce posted:
Please critique this statement: In the Scriptures alone we learn about being saved by grace alone by faith alone through union with Christ alone for the glory of God alone.

Does this sound right?

Sing F Lau
I thought I left a comment here, but it disappeared.
I will try again.
May I inquire, how is a man's salvation by God's grace alone, and also by his faith alone?

Bruce
Sing' it came through a personal message I think. I will try and answer in a couple of hours when I am off work. Have not mastered phone typing too well yet.

Sing F Lau
The comment I left here was a separate one from the link I gave you. But it is gone!

Bruce
A question back. Maybe a statement. I know that you are not unaware of the 5 solas of the Reformation so what is the point of your question?

Justification is by faith alone through God's condescension in Christ.

Sing F Lau
What is meant by 'justification is by faith alone'?
By whose faith? How does a man's faith alone justify him?
Honest questions.

Monk
That's it... it's a statement trying to include all 5 Solas.

J Scot
I wouldn't say "by faith"; we are saved "through faith"; in other words we are saved by Grace and God works that through faith that he gives as a gift by working in the life of the elect to cause them to trust in his work.

Mon
Have you considered the statement:
"We are saved by faith alone, but faith is not alone."?

It's like saying,
"We are saved by Christ alone, but Christ is not alone. He has the Father, and the Holy Spirit."

Donn
The intention to include all the five solas is good.

But I find this part problematic:
"In the Scriptures alone we learn about being..."

Sounds like NUDA Scriptura since we can also learn those things from other sources like tradition.

J Scot
An example of this is Sarah;
Heb 11:11 says she conceived through faith.
When we go to Gen 18:10-15, we see that when told she would have a child, Sarah laughed becasue she was beyond menopause. God says why did Sarah laugh? Sarah lies directly to god and says she didn't laugh. God says but you did Laugh.

the point is this. Sarah didn't conceive because she had faith. Rather God did what he said he would do and by causing her to conceive she gained faith and learned to trust God.

we are not saved by faith rather we are saved "through faith" that God works in us

Mon
Okay? Any more who doesn't like human responsibility?

Sing F Lau
I understand the 5 solas like this:

Sola Scriptura, by Scripture alone:
- Scriptures is the only source of divine revelation.

Solus Christus, through Christ alone:
- Christ and His redemptive work is the sole basis and alone ground of salvation.

Sola Gratia, by grace alone:
- Salvation secured by Jesus Christ alone for His people is bestowed upon each one of them by God's free and sovereign grace while they were still in their native state of sin and death, being wholly incapable of meeting any condition!

Sola Fide, by faith alone:
- Believing in Christ is the only means God has appointed for His children (regenerated elect) to experience the salvation already freely bestowed upon them by God's sovereign grace.
- Faith is a fruit of salvation already bestowed. Faith evidences the salvation already bestowed by God's free and sovereign grace.
- "The reason why any are justified IS NOT because they have faith; but the reason why they have faith IS because they are justified."

Soli Deo Gloria, glory to God alone:
- God purposed salvation; Jesus Christ secured salvation, the Holy Spirit applies the salvation to each elect still in their native state of sin and death... making them perfectly fit for eternal glory... thus all glory to God alone.

That's my understanding. Is that what you mean by your statement of 5 solas?

Donn
Sir Sing F Lau, your Sola Scriptura definition is actually Solo/Nuda Scriptura. The others are fine.

Sola Scriptura = Scripture is the only INFALLIBLE source of divine revelation

Sing F Lau
Okay? Any more who doesn't like human responsibility?
=====
Interesting subject... May be helpful to start a separate thread since bruce is discussing about the 5 solas. Please let me ask a question?

Who does God hold responsible to believe Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour?

Who does God hold responsible, and for what?

Thanks

Mon
Answers don't come that fast sir Sing.

Sing F Lau
‎Donn, thanks. Does your definition of SS imply that there are other writings that are divine revelation apart from the Scriptures, and that such divine revelation apart from the Scriptures are fallible?

What is Nuda?

Mon
‎Donn is just gone, and may be back for a few minutes. But I'm not assuring that.

"Nuda" is the Latin word for "Naked". And he pointed out that your understanding of Sola Scriptura is actually Nuda Scriptura. And Nuda Scriptura is more commonly known as Solo Scriptura (take note of the difference between (solA and solO).

And now, you are now on the right track in understanding what Sola Scriptura teaches.

Sing F Lau
Please explain why 'Sola Scriptura, by Scripture alone: - Scriptures is the only source of divine revelation' is actually Naked Scriptura? Thanks.

Mon
Uhmm... no.. okay.. let's do this again...

Nuda Scriptura teaches that "Scripture is the ONLY source of divine revelation." -- something like that.

Sola Scriptura, however, teaches that Scripture is the only infallible source of divine revelation. There are other sources of divine revelation, but none of them are infallible like the Scriptures.

Sing F Lau
Mon, you haven't explained why "Scripture is the ONLY source of divine revelation' in the context of Sola Scriptura is NAKED?
Why is it naked? I wish to understand. Is it naked because it is not clothed with infallibility?

Infallibility speaks of the CHARACTER of that divine revelation, which is the only source of divine revelation in the context of Sola Scriptura... as against all other human writings. Is any writing apart from the Holy Scriptures that is by divine revelation?

I see the sola and solo distinction as redundant, superfluous.

Though the right distinction is the essence of sound theology, superfluous ones confuse issues.

I'm off... have tuition classes. Thanks for the conversation.

Mon
Oh my... I guess I messed up. I DIFFERENTIATED between Sola and Nuda sir.

I DON'T believe in Nuda Scriptura. I believe in Sola Scriptura.

The teaching of Sola Scriptura ACCEPTS authorities OUTSIDE Scripture. But since the Scripture is the only infallible authority, all other authorities are to submit to the Scriptures if they contradicted with it.

Bruce
Ok, just got home from work and reading through this thread. Sing, I think that in you writing out the 5 solas is your answer. Also, Scripture alone is the only infallible source of divine revelation, but not the only source. Creation declares the glories of God, this is a source of revelation, but not infallible because humans suppress the truth in unrighteousness and begin worshipping it rather than the creator.

Mon, the last statement seems right on in my thinking.

Sing F Lau, I have not gotten to that article yet but I will, I am getting pretty tired and not mentally in shape to read it right now.

Pax.

Bruce
Authority is an interesting subject. For me first and foremost is Scripture, but I also hold to some tradition too. The councils up to about 787 and their doctrinal clarifications and creedal statements are vitally important in Christological reflection.

Sing F Lau
Mon @ "Oh my... I guess I messed up. I DIFFERENTIATED between Sola and Nuda sir."

Sir, then I will amend and say, "I see the sola and nuda distinction as redundant, superfluous. "

Context, context, context... the context of Sola Scriptura is that the Holy Scriptures, in distinction from all other WRITINGS of men, is the only source of divine revelation concerning salvation. The battle was the Scriptures of God's divine revelation vs the writings of men as the source of divine revelation.

Mon @ 'The teaching of Sola Scriptura ACCEPTS authorities OUTSIDE Scripture.'

I believe 'sola scriptura' EXCLUDES and REJECTS the authorities of all other writings on the matter of faith and practice.

Scriptures are the ONLY source, and authoritative... i.e. this excludes all others as authoritative in the matters of faith and practice.

Sing F Lau ‎
Bruce @ I have not gotten to that article yet but I will, I am getting pretty tired and not mentally in shape to read it right now.
=====
Take your time... digest it. may the Lord bless you.

Eric
Yes.
Mon the posted in a separate post
Help guys. I need a list of differences: Sola Scriptura vs Solo Scriptura

Jonathan "Solo Scriptura" is "Me and my Bible". I do not read authors, just interpret the Bible for myself.

"Sola Scriptura" recognises that the Bible is the highest (and only infallible) authority, by which all other authorities (creeds, confessions), are subject to, and ought to be tested against.

Brad
Solo Scriptura logically places personal interpretation as the highest authority as it rejects the input of the rest of the Church and focuses completely on self.

Jonathan
If someone was consistent to Solo Scritpura, their sermon was consist of only reading the Bible. In the original languages at that.

Thoma
Sola: Scriptura, Fide, Gratia, Christus, Deo Gloria

Dan
http://www.northrydeanglican.org.au/fivesolas.pdf
http://www.fivesolas.com/5solas.htm

Mon
The great 5 points of Calvinism? ^_^

Dan
The only one SOLO is Christ. Cause there aint no one like Him.

Thoma
Let's have a greater part of a fifth while we discuss the great five.

Jennif
so I think what would be helpful for those of us who don't speak Latin or whatever language this is to define what solo, sola and soli means...
I gather this isn't like Spanish where an o means masculine and an a means feminine...

Dan
Latin

Brad
when I was a solo scripturist, I tried preaching from the NT in its original language but I didn't do very well cuz it was all Greek to me

Dan
http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/nounendings/qt/Keep-Sol-Solium-Solus-And-Solum-Straight-In-Latin.htm

Dan
It's different ways of saying "Alone" or "Only"

Jennif
got it... i think...

Jonathan
‎"Solus" means alone. It is an adjective. So, Solus Christus = Christ alone. Solus is masculine. Sola is the feminine delension.

We use "Solus" in the singular in the masculine nominative and masculine vocative. We use "Sola" in the singular in the feminine nominative, feminine abative. We use "Soli" in the singular in the dative. Then the usages are different in the plural. Latin is fun!

"Solo" is actually a Latin word in some singulars and abatives but the origin or the term "Solo Scriptura", has nothing to do with the Latin. It is meant to convey "going solo - doing it completely alone. Think of a solo sport". That's what I have always believed at least.

Jennif
aha! you made it all so clear Jonathan! no wonder everyone loves you!

Reconciled
Jennif and Mon, solo scriptura is self-refuting. If solo scriptura were true, you would have to reject solo scriptura.

I would ask a solo scriptura person
What is your stance that scripture is scripture? How did you conclude scripture is scripture?

There are more questions I could ask, but that is enough to stump them for a few hours. The next question I would ask them is in regard to infallibility. How are they presupposing the Bible is infallible?

Mon
I recognize the problems with solo scriptura. But I want the questions list Reconciled.

I have to present Sola to my confused, solo-holding brethren in the church.

Matt
Solo Scriptura presumes your own infallibility (popery) by stating that the Holy Spirit leads me therefore when I read the bible it is free of traditions and customs and rituals of men and pure doctrine.

The Word of God is true and infallible, dogma is not. Dogma is the doctrine whereby we and that which the apostles taught and passed down is understood. While often true, it is not infallible because it the teaching of men. Our standard is God's Word and there are some dogma's that we can hold to be absolutely true because God's Word says them, but it is God's Word we are stating is true not merely our dogma or doctrine.

Sing F Lau
Mon, glad you went inquiring!!!
Don't be too quick to throw around label that you don't quite understand yet!

West
If you're solo scriptura you end up like Cavin Swafford because you typically interpret the bible the way you want to.

Luth
Sola Scriptura is the final rule/authority on faith and morals. It allows for the inclusion of creeds and confessions that are to be judged against scripture. Solo Scriptura is me, my Bible, and a pen-light in the closet receiving divine revelation


And here is a handicapped mindset on learning

Sing F Lau
I heard something new to me today... that
There is a distinction between Sola Scriptura and Solo/Nuda Scriptura.
Have any of you heard this before? What's the distinction in your understanding?

Mate
Sorry...I do not speak greek. Cannot even tell the diff between sola and solo.

David
Female and male pehaps??? No idea either.

Sing F Lau
‎Mate you don't need to know Greek or Latin to know them. If you care to learn, a simple English dictionary will teach you! There is no shame in not knowing Greek, but their is shame in despising it! KJV English is not the only medium by which you can gain knowledge!

Mate
@Sing: I am contented at english and the KJB's wisdom. My head size is already big enough.

David
Okay brother Sing, I'm in class. Begin when ready. I'll be listening.

Sing F Lau
Sorry then Mate.. you can't help me with my inquiry. You are handicapped by your narrow choice!
Delete some old redundant files, and your head can accommodate a whole lot more without it growing any bigger!

David
Watch it, professor Sing. While you may be chuckling, someone else may be frowning at what may be taken as arrogance rather than boldness. Now, Let us begin anew with what we were going to learn from another brother...

Mate
@Sing: Thanks for the advice, I am in the process of throwing out all the NIV, ESV, HSCB, CUV, IBIS, TIBS,.... junks and re-reading the Bible in the complete easy to understand KJB. The Lord shown me more than enough to have to do this process.

David
Sola vs. Solo ???

Sing F Lau
‎David, Brother Mate and I are close buddies in Christ. We both have our own peculiarities... though both of us are ethnic Chinese.

Sing F Lau
‎Mate, no harm learning the meaning of sola and solo and the distinction between them if any. Some handicapped brethren may need your help. It is ok to express biblical truth in the common language of the people.

David
‎"I see", said the blind man.

Begotten, then later Manifested/Sent at baptism

Dano stated:
The apostles were already apostles before Jesus sent them out just as Jesus was already God's Son even before He was sent into the world.

The issue at hand is not the deity of Jesus in his humanity but his sonship in eternity.

Jerryin ‎
@ Dano, Doesn't the Scriptures say that "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God?" Jn. 1:1
I don't see anything here that tells of a "Sonship" in these verses...

Sing F Lau
Brother Dano, what a confused comparison!
They were men first before they were made apostles by Jesus. And they were made apostles first before they were sent out! First they were men... and they remain men until they were made apostles. And AFTER they were made apostles, they were still men, and as apostles they they were sent out.

The Word is eternal, but the eternal Word was not Son. The Word was made flesh in time, and the Son of God was begotten in time. After the Son of God was begotten, He was sent for His work at the proper time. And He was officially, and publicly sent for His work at His water baptism, where it was public declared, "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased."

There are the men... they were made apostles... so they are apostolic men... and as apostolic men they were sent out.

There is the eternal Word... He was made flesh... so He is Jesus Christ the God-man, the only begotten Son of God... and as God-man He was send out.

Put away eternal sonship in the safe for a while. It clouds your thinking.

Dano
---------------------
The Word was made flesh and THE SON OF GOD WAS BEGOTTEN.
---------------------

If you recall I brought up the issue of the right translation of "monogenes" on PB group because this may determine the foundation of the sonship of Christ: whether eternal or incarnational.

The statement quoted, to me, is brought about by what I believe a mistranslation.

Bible students must not build around the meaning of "begotten" but the original text, MONOGENES, which should not be rendered 'begotten' but "only kind".

After we have translated the original text properly, only then can we start laboring for the right meaning of "begotten".

Sing F Lau
So, tell us who is the 'only kind' - Jesus Christ that is BEGOTTEN and BORN, or the eternal UN-BEGOTTEN Word, or something else?
Perhaps the idea of 'eternal sonship' is only feasible with the re-translation of the KJT!

Jerryin ‎
@ Dano, The Apostles were sent out by Jesus and given that name by Him AT THAT TIME...The name, APOSTLE means, according to Strong's: "a delegate, messenger, one sent forth with orders
a) specifically applied to the twelve apostles of Christ...I don't see how they could be apostles before that time...

Sing F Lau
Brother Dano, however μονογενής is to be translated, it is certain that it is a compound word from μόνος (G3441) and γίνομαι (G1096).

μόνος (G3441) : alone, only,

γίνομαι (G1096): to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being.

That's from Strong. Not that I trust him. Just that he is far superior in his Greek.

[It is commonly imagined that 'only begotten' is from μόνος (G3441) and γενής (genes).] That's a basic error.

Dano
As my knowledge of Greek is very limited, I shall appeal directly to the scriptures.

"For this purpose the Son of God was MANIFESTED, that he might destroy the works of the devil." - 1 John 3:8

... To manifest means to display or to bring to appearance.
Could we at least take the verse at face value. It says the Son of God was manifest.

Language could not be any plainer.

Sing F Lau
Isn't language more than plainer that the Son must be begotten first before the Son can be manifested?

And may I inquired, just when was the Son of God manifested?
Was it when the Word was made flesh, or was it when the Son of God officially entered His public ministry?

Mt 3:
13 ¶ Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Please don't equate the begetting of God's Son as the manifesting of God's Son.

John 1
29 ¶ The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

You read those words in verse 31? Here they are again "And I knew him not: but that he should be made MANIFEST to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water."

Jesus Christ, the Son of God was made manifest to Israel when He officially entered into His public ministry! let the Scriptures speak for itself... don't read ideas into it.

Your fixation on 'eternal sonship' has confused your mind on these basic things.