Sola Fideist ashamed of himself!
Why is it so hard to distinguish between LEGAL justification by the blood and righteousness of Christ without your faith, and the same APPLIED to you personally by the free grace of God without your faith, and your faith in Jesus Christ as the ONLY instrument ordained by God for you to experience the blessedness of your justification by the free grace of God alone and based on the righteousness of Christ alone?
Why do the 'wise and prudent' find it so hard to grasp these plain teaching of Scriptures...
Sing F Lau
How do the sola fideists cope with these declarations?
How do the sola fideists ("justification by faith, i.e. their act of believing, alone") cope with these declarations of Scriptures? Are they saying one and the same justification as the sola fideists do?
Sing F Lau
Legal Justification by Christ's faith, blood: the basis
- Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is
by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference... 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is
justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
- Ro 5:9 Much more then, being now
justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
- Ga 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but
by the faith of Jesus Christ, even
we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be
justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
- Ga 2:17 But if, while we seek to be
justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Justified by Christ's blood, justified by the faith of Jesus Christ, and justified by Christ... what justification is spoken of here?
Justification before God requires righteousness, and this righteousness is either by your own obedience of the law (i.e. deeds or works of the law) or by Christ's obedience to the law (i.e. His faith, or faithfulness in discharging the work of redemption).There is no justification by the works/deeds of the law! Christ alone kept the law.
Vital/Personal Justification by Free Grace: the manner
This speaks of the manner the righteousness is APPLIED to each individual elect when he is still dead in trespasses and sin.
- Tit 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
- Ro 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Justified by God's grace... yes, His free grace, to repudiate the notion that there is such a thing as a grace that is not free but earned or merited somehow. The application of justification DOES NOT require man's believing at all. A man in his native un-justified state is in the state of condemnation and death! How does you expect a man in such condition to believe in order to be justified? How very irrational! Bodoh and gila betul!
Experiential Justification by Faith: the instrumental meansBelieving in Christ is the divinely appointed means/instrument for the justified to experience the blessedness of his justified state freely by God's grace. Abraham (in Gen 11-14) was already a justified man by the free grace of God. In Gen 15, he experienced the blessedness of his justified state through his believing. His faith was accounted to him for righteousness.
- Ro 4: 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
- Ro 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
- Ga 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Evidential Justification by works as well as by faith.
- Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
- Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Works, AS WELL AS FAITH, evidence a justified state by the free grace of God.
Works and works of the law are entirely different things. Works justify evidentially. Laws condemn, and no works of the law can justify a man.
Cucolo
Is this one of those instances where we are supposed to say there's "tension" in the text? :) But actually, to give my two bits, let's first define what we mean by Sola Fide:
How else indeed can we say that we are justified by anything other than faith? Sola fide has never, ever meant "justified by a barren, dead faith that is not Sp...irit-borne nor accompanied by all the rest of the work of God in His redeemed people." The alone has always referred to the denial of any additions to faith, especially those that speak to merit...As B. B. Warfield put it, "The saving power of faith resides thus not in itself, but in the Almighty Savior on whom it rests...It is not, strictly speaking, even faith in Christ that saves, but Christ that saves through faith." [James White, The God Who Justifies, pg 108-109]
So, to go to the quotations of James first, James is not saying that we are justified by works and faith, but rather he is condemning the empty "easy believism" faith of, "Well just say 'I believe in Jesus' and you're in!" As he says near the beginning of this section: "What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?" (Jam 2:14) Note: can *that* faith save him? James is saying that simply saying you believe in Christ is a dead, static kind of faith (Jam 2:17). This leads him to say one of my favorite passages in the New Testament: "You believe that God is one You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder" (Jam 2:19). James is saying that our works *show* our faith, writing: "You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected" (Jam 2:22). He is hearkening back to the words of our Lord when He said, "You will know them by their fruits" (Matt 7:16) and again, "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit" (Matt 7:18). As believers, we show that we are believers by our fruit. This does require works, but it is not on works alone that we are justified. This actually fits in well with the passages you cited in regards to faith and evidence.
Very quickly here, you ask a good question with "whose faith and what is that faith?" Sola Fide, like so many of the solas, is inherently tied with Solus Christus and Soli Deo Gloria.
There are no "tensions" in the text. Paul and James weren't in disagreement. Paul spoke against any pre-salvation works, while James affirmed that works were an evidence of faith. Calvin and the Puritans affirmed this.
Smith
It is a God-given faith, and it has to be faith in something...and something true. Christ's virgin birth, His blood shed for remission of sins. His resurrection. etc. The passage in James is very much in line with Ephesians 2 -- we are save...d by grace through faith...and we are saved unto good works which God prepared in advance for us to do.
How can you tell if CPR has been successful? There are pulse and breath sounds and breaths out. Evidence of a beating heart and respirating lungs that were not there before. A converted person will show evidence. Only God will completely know that it is evidence of a changed heart rather than ordinary civil niceness under common grace in a lot of people. But the thing is...it is evidence.
Sing F Lau
There are no "tensions" in the text. Paul and James weren't in disagreement. Paul spoke against any pre-salvation works, while James affirmed that works were an evidence of faith.
===========
Any tension, real or apparent is the result of WRONGLY dividing the word of truth. The word of God is in perfect harmony and unity.
Paul speaks of faith (the act of believing, in contrast to observing the old covenant ceremonial laws) as the means to experience the blessedness of the justified state by God's free grace... and he marshaled Abraham as the classic example and proof. This deals with how the justified may experience the blessedness of their justified state by God's free grace - answer: through believing, and not observing old covenant laws, like Abraham.
Paul ALSO speak of the faith of Christ (His faithfulness in discharging the work of redemption in securing righteousness and forgiveness) in contrast to the deeds of the law by men as the basis of their justification before God.
Justification before God requires righteousness. And righteousness is through perfect obedience to the moral law of God. Jesus alone kept it. No man can keep it. Therefore there no justification before God through the deeds of the law.
James DID not affirm that works were an evidence of faith.
James affirm that BOTH works and faith are evidence of justification by God's free grace. BOTH works and faith justify EVIDENTIALLY.
See here:
http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2008/01/by-faith-alone-vs-not-by-faith-alone.html
Mikal
Thank you Bro. Sing! I too, agree with you. Always wondered how you can have 5 "Solas"? Salvation is of the Lord and that means from eternity to eternity! Not to mention, faith alone ad our justification before God undermines and cuts away the very core of sovereign grace. To hold to the fideist is to completely go against all the 5 Solas!
Smith
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast (Eph 2:8-9 ESV).
That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on gr...ace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all (Romans 4:16; see preceding verses for context of "that is why").
See also WCF Chapter XIV "Of Saving Faith" with proof texts at http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/.
Faith is not a work or contribution of man to our salvation. It's not like the hand reaching down to save us, that we grab onto, analogy that I heard TOO many times in my life. Faith is given by God as a gift.
Mikal
First off bro. Mark I care not what men's confessions say, while they may reverberate with truth, they are not our rule and guide! And yes, u agree with you that faith is not a work because it is a gift of God. However, when faith is requir...ed for regeneration or justification before God, it is now a meritorious work. Faith is only NOT a work when it is not meritorious before God. Faith is something sovereignly given to those whom the Lord not only elected, but regenerated, converted, and indwelt! Faith is the over flow of the divine life we become partakers of. So that we "work out our salvation with fear and trembling.FOR it is God who works in you both to WILL and to DO his good pleasure". Bro. Sing rightly put it justification before God can only be based on the merits of Christ alone! But it is evidenced or justified to men that we have an imputed righteousness, by our God produced faith. How can you believe in sola christos when it takes christos and fide? I believe faith is important and if there is no saving faith there is no salvation, but my faith was purchased along with my pardon, redemption, reconciliation, justification, sanctification, and glorification by the finished, perfect work of our Lord Jesus Christ! His atonement bought my justification and since I was in him when he died, I was counted righteous because he was my substitute! I was declared just in Christ. In time, that reality is made evidence when the Spirit regenerates and gives me the faith of Abraham, which is no more than the faith of Christ. It is Christ in you the hope of glory! My hope is built on nothing less than Jesus blood and righteousness!
Smith
It sounds to me like you are out to pick a fight over semantics. I am not game.
Mikal
Bro I am not out to pick a fight, nor do I believe this is semantics. Our righteousness and how it is merited is of utmost importance! Our righteous is only filthy rags and that is all it every can be. Any godly righteousness that may be im...puted or imparted is only that righteousness that comes from Christ. Therefore for me to be made right or just before God, not before man, I must have imputed righteousness. It was eternally purposed before the foundation, historically secured by the death of Jesus, and now is evidential in time through regeneration and conversion. The fact that I have saving faith is the justification manward, that I have been justified godward. When I trust in the finished work of Jesus Christ, it is the proof that I was elected, redeemed, justified, sanctified, and glorified in the eternal counsel of God. And my continued faith in him is part of the working out of salvation in time what he already purposed and secured.
Wee
Guys, I think there a few factors at work here, let's backpedal so that we can clean things up here. Faith in Christ vs. Faith of Christ is a different set of terms, that partially arises from different Bible translations. How do I know this? Incidentally Harold Camping makes the same claim which is partially why I've sorted through this.
Wee
Ephesians 3:12 (KJV):In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.
Ephesians 3:12 (NASB):in whom we have boldness and confident access through faith in Him.
Let's also take a look here at Galatians 2:16, which Sing also used as proof text.
Galatians 2:16 (KJV): Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Galatians 2:16 (NASB): Nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
The way Harold Camping straw mans sola fide is that he claims that people are trusting in their own faith to save them, versus the faith of Christ actually saving them. This leads most people to say "huh?" Most of us don't read the KJV, and... I only got this b/c I had a conversation with a Campingite (Who incidentally are KJV only people). It is a gross misrepresentation of the Reformed faith to say that Sola Fideists are trusting in the righteousness of their own faith vs. the finished work of Christ.
Mikal
Bro. With all do respect. Your position may not be that you trust in your faith, but your theology is saying otherwise. There is a contradiction in justification by faith alone and justification of Christ. The faith of Christ alone saved us. Our faith in him shows we are being saved! The kjv translators had it right, and I am by mo means a rabid kjv only person.
Stallings
I am just curious as to why we are defending against a Harold Camping "caricature" in a Reformed Monergistic group? Harold Camping is anything but Reformed.
Cucolo
Harold Camping is not Christian, let alone Reformed Christian.
Wee
@Phil. Phil, the reason I used that is because its the same argument, all arising from a concept that comes from KJV.
Stallings I understand John. I just find Mr. Lau's questions to be non-reformed in nature.
Wee
Phil, I agree with you. But that's why we're here. Working out our salvation with fear and trembling.
Michnay
Mikal, The KJV was based on the Latin Vulgate translation.The textus receptus is not a consistent or strong translation not to mention the language is archaic. You would do well to reference D.A. Carson and James Whites' works on the "King ...James Only Controversy." Koine scholars have minimally have 4 years of Greek. I certainly do not posess this knowledge. Another important work is D.A. Carsons' Exegetical Fallacies.
Michnay
In order to be fair it is of vital importance to utilize Bible translations that have a solid committee of translators. The Dead Sea Scrolls were very important to Biblical Scholarship. The Journal of Biblical Literature has contributed some very good articles.
Michnay
Theology can never be based on a translation or "reading into a given text," which is referred to as eisegesis. To force a systematic theology into a translation is equivelent to ignoring true Biblical theology.
Mikal
Bro Tom, I have read those books, however while don't believe in kjv only, I do think the textus receptus has been preserved purer than other manuscripts. But beside that, the fact remains, if our faith merits our justification, Christ died... in vain. Christ passive and active obedience brought our justification. Faith merited justification is an error that has been passed through the Protestant ranks but denies the very doctrines of grace they hold to. To say faith causes justification before God is no different than saying my decision justified me or gospel preaching or baptism justified me. Either way you are making means the causal factor of justification. And he will share his glory with no one!
Michnay
On what basis do you substantiate the claim that the received text has been preserved "more purely?" Faith doesn't merit anything. The substitutionary and propitiation of Christ Alone secures salvation. It is the kindness of God that leads men to repentance. Within the ordo salutis faith precedes regeneration and is a gift of God. Faith isn't the cause of justification,Christ grants faith to those who are dead in trespasses in sins. How is it that a dead man can choose Christ?
Michnay
Paul in Rom. 8:29 ff. states that For those whom he foreknew, he did also predestinate, those he did predestinate he also called, those he called he justified, and those he justified, he glorified. This verse is not the general call of the ...Gospel. If it was all would be saved,rather the text speaks of special revelation granted to Gods' elect. I am surprised that you resorted to an attack of my soteriology when you were not aware of what my view on justification was. I was trying to point out that there are other reliable translations.
Michnay
May I kindly state that I do not wish to engage in debate regarding historical theology. "A man convinced his will is of the same opinion still." C.H. Spurgeon Now if you wish to come to the table with a honest opposing view based on Script...ure Alone, I will gladly discuss it. To the best of my knowledge I am unaware of the error of protestantism that you are referring. I do not follow after a system or a man, while I try my best to be Biblical in my theology. I am fallible just like the next guy.
It is my feeling that Leon Morris' work "The Apostolic Preaching of the Cross," was an important work. James Buchannan wrote his magnum opus on Justification and James R. White wrote "The God who Justifies." Justification is by faith alone, through grace alone, because of Christ Alone. Plus or minus nothing.
Sing F Lau
Tom @ "Justification is by faith alone, through grace alone, because of Christ Alone. Plus or minus nothing."
========
"Alone" indicates exclusivity - plus or minus nothing." Supposing "Justification is by faith alone" is true, then how do you deal with these Scriptures? Please tell us.
- Tit 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
- Ro 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
- Ro 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
- Ro 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. (what is this faith, do you know? Read the two verses that precede verse 28.)
- Ga 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
These declarations contradict and repudiate that statement "Justification is by faith alone."
"Justification is by faith alone" cannot possibly be true in the same SENSE as the justifications that is by the blood of Christ, and by the free grace of Christ... because the word "ALONE" excludes every thing else.
Let us talk some sense, please. No shibboleth!
Let me suggest to you:
Justification is by Christ alone, applied by grace alone, and experienced by faith alone... the alone are ALONE is different and distinct SENSE!
Distinction is the essence of sound theology.
Sing F Lau
The Scriptures teach distinct aspects of justification:
- There is DECRETAL justification in God's purpose for all the elect.
- There is LEGAL justification at the cross for all the elect.
- There is VITAL/PERSONAL justification by God's free grace at effectual calling out of the state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation. What is LEGAL is now applied to each individual elect, by God's free and sovereign grace, thus making the legal justification PERSONAL.
- There is EXPERIENTIAL justification when God's children is brought to faith in Christ. This is the justification spoken of in Gen 15:1-6. But new school calvinists mistake and confuse this with the VITAL/PERSONAL justification by God's free grace.
- Then there is the FINAL justification when publicly vindicated before all the goats on the great judgment day.
These are five and distinct aspect of justification taught in the Scriptures. They are the five fingers of a well formed hand.
And they are summarized in the Confession of Faith.
Roldan
Seems to me that Justification is being confused with Sanctification which is a process, though already ordained in eternity past, but a process nevertheless.
Also it seems to me that you guys are all saying the same thing. Brother Lau seems to be making an emphasis of progressive Justification through Sanctification since he has a contention with the word "Alone" which he seems to think entails no fruit bearing within a Christian who has been Justified by Faith. If I am reading him correctly anyways.
But to add my two cents, being Justified Now or in the future at our vindication at the last day is dependent solely upon the already Merited works of Jesus Christ in His active and passive obedience in fulfilling ALL righteousness for us. The Elect walk in good works only because they have ALREADY been Justified and has no bearing on the final Justification of our Bodies in Glorification. There is NO future meritorious Justification for the Elect.
We bear fruit because we have ALready been Justified, we arent Justified because we bore fruit.
I smell a little bit New Perspective of Paul around here.....lol
Sing F Lau
Roldan @ Seems to me that Justification is being confused with Sanctification which is a process, though already ordained in eternity past, but a process nevertheless.
============
Justification by faith alone confuses sanctification with justification indeed.
"The just shall live by faith" is sanctification... living by faith is sanctification. It is the justified that shall live by faith. Living by faith is an effect of justification, i.e. sanctification.
The old school theologians declared this:
"The reason why any are justified IS NOT because they have faith; but the reason why they have faith IS because they are justified."
Sing F Lau
Roldan @ We bear fruit because we have already been Justified, we aren't Justified because we bore fruit.
=======
Faith is a fruit of justification. A fruit of justification CANNOT POSSIBLY be an instrument of that same justification. Sola fideism is pure nonsense!
However, it is most definitely true that the instrument to experience the blessedness of the justified state by God's free grace. Abraham is classic monument of that truth.
Roldan
I would beg to differ brotha Lau......as I suspected you have it backwards. Justification is the fruit of our faith....Faith is the intrumental cause of our Justification that God ALONE gives.
If I may ask.....are you a NPP adherent?
You are indeed confusing Justification with Sanctification. You have a Romish view where you are making these two terms the same, though related, but you are attempting to use them interchangeably and that sir is the error of ...Rome.
Being Justified by faith Alone has to do with our legal status before a Holy God where as Sanctification is the result our being ALREADY Justified which our Faith is manifested in our works, the Ordis Salutis of Romans 8 confirms this. We do good works because we are saved we do not do good works to eventually get saved.
"There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." Rom. 8:1
NT. Wright makes this same mistake and consequently makes our final justification dependant on our covenantal obedience....
Sing F Lau
If our final justification is dependent upon any sort of obedience, then it is not what I believe.
I believe our justification before God is without any sort of obedience, not even faith... for an unjustified man is a man still in his native... state of condemnation and death, and is utterly incapable of believing. Is that clear.
That is why justification is by grace, i.e. the manner we are justified. Our justification is by Christ, i.e. the ground of our justification. And faith in Jesus Christ is the instrument to experience the blessedness of our justification by God's free grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.
I repudiate by romish and wrightish nonsense. It is better for you to get out of your box and understand what I am saying first...
Sing F Lau
Roldan @ " Justification is the fruit of our faith....Faith is the instrumental cause of our Justification that God ALONE gives. "
=========
Sins bring condemnation and death.
An unjustified man is in his state of sin and death.
A man in his native UN-justified state lies in the state of condemnation and death.
Which statement do you disagree, please say so.
Can a man in his un-justified condemned state BELIEVE in order to be justified by God?
Does God give the grace of faith to a un-justified, therefore condemned dead man, so that he may believe and be justified by God? Is that what you believe?
Roldan
You stated: "If our final justification is dependent upon any sort of obedience, then it is not what I believe."
Excellent!
"I believe our justification before God is without any sort of obedience, not even faith... for an unjustified man is ...a man still in his native state of condemnation and death, and is utterly incapable of believing. Is that clear."
I agree, but Faith is indeed the instrumental cause of our Justification, this is where I disagree with you.
"That is why justification is by grace, i.e. the manner we are justified. Our justification is by Christ, i.e. the ground of our justification. And faith in Jesus Christ is the instrument to experience the blessedness of our justification by God's free grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus."
Correct......not sure this is what you were saying earlier though.....
"I repudiate by romish and wrightish nonsense. It is better for you to get out of your box and understand what I am saying first... "
Thats why I am asking questions sir, didn't mean to disrespect....
Roldan
You stated: "Sins bring condemnation and death.
An unjustified man is in his state of sin and death.
A man in his native UN-justified state lies in the state of condemnation and death."
Agree....
you said: "Can a man in his un-justified condemned state BELIEVE in order to be justified by God?"
No, the unregenerate man must first be given faith in order to believe (regeneration)
You said "Does God give the grace of faith to a un-justified, therefore condemned dead man, so that he may believe and be justified by God? Is that what you believe?"
Absolutely, thats what Scripture teaches....Man must first be given the gift of Faith and is instantly Justified. Mans belief in the Gospel is a result of Grace through faith which Justifies on the merit of Christ Righteousness.
Sing F Lau
Roldan@ Brotha Lau....You are indeed confusing Justification with Sanctification.
========
No, Brotha! The problem is here: you are ignorant of the various distinct aspects of justification taught in the Scriptures. Go, read 1689.11.4. Three ...DISTINCT aspect stated.
You are ignorant of the distinction between LEGAL justification by Christ righteousness IMPUTED at the cross.
You are also ignorant of the VITAL justification when the righteousness of Christ is APPLIED to an elect personally. What was LEGAL became PERSONAL.
And then you confuses PRACTICAL justification experienced by faith as the LEGAL justification by your faith.
That's where the problem lies. Because of your ignorance, you see romish and wrightish ghosts
Good nite. It is past midnight where I live.
Roldan
Holup now lol.....I responded to your questions. Are we in agreement or no?
BTW...my standard is the WCF. I'm Presbyterian
Roldan
"No, Brotha! The problem is here: you are ignorant of the various distinct aspects of justification taught in the Scriptures. Go, read 1689.11.4. Three DISTINCT aspect stated."
There is only one aspect that were are discussing here and that's Sola Fide. How are Justified in the sight of a Holy God? Faith ALONE.
"You are ignorant of the distinction between LEGAL justification by Christ righteousness IMPUTED at the cross."
How can I be if thats what I've been arguing for this whole time...lol
"You are also ignorant of the VITAL justification when the righteousness of Christ is APPLIED to an elect personally. What was LEGAL became PERSONAL."
This is where you side with Rome.....it DOES NOT become our PERSONAL Righteous by which we can now do good works on our own.....This is the doctrine of Rome and of NPP and of Auburn Ave Theology. You are promoting Infused Righteousness under Reformed camoflauge.
"And then you confuses PRACTICAL justification experienced by faith as the LEGAL justification by your faith."
No sir that is your confusion as you confuse what you call "practical Justification" with what the Reformed call Sanctification which is a result of Justification, again you are interchanging the two terms which Rome does.
"That's where the problem lies. Because of your ignorance, you see romish and wrightish ghosts "
Not sure if its ghosts but Wright and Rome are speaking through you.
"Good nite. It is past midnight where I live."
Peace
Roldan
Brotha Lau.....I just read your Baptist confession and it states exactly what I am saying, so I don't get your point. I think your misunderstanding your own confession which reads:
BCF 1689 11:4
"4._____ God did from all eternity decree to justify all the elect, and Christ did in the fullness of time die for their sins, and rise again for their justification; nevertheless, they are not justified personally, until the Holy Spirit doth in time due actually apply Christ unto them."
All this is saying bro is that the Elect who have been Justified from Eternity past are not Justified UNTIL they are given faith in Christ as He is applied to them by Faith and therefore Justified AT THAT TIME......so your point?
Roldan
you might want to read the entire Chapter 11 of our confession brotha......it confirms what everyone has been telling you
Tom
Sing your "proof texting," unfortunately seems problematic on a multifaceted level. Rom 5-11 should be taken as a whole concept on soteriology. Saving faith has Christ as the object taken in all of his threefold offices as prophet,priest,and... king.Justification is imputed Righteousness by Christ Alone,not infused righteousness as the Romanists pontificate. I thought I made myself clear that "Christ is the author and the finisher of our faith."Regeneration precedes faith and repentance. Justification by faith alone is not a meritorious work that sinners bring about.It is brought about when the Spirit convicts a sinner,the Father draws them, and the Son redeems them.Justification is forensic (or legal in nature.)It is a declaration by God that we stand in the righteousness of Christ.
Sing F Lau
I asked: "Can a man in his un-justified condemned state BELIEVE in order to be justified by God?"
Roldan said: No, the unregenerate man must first be given faith in order to believe (regeneration)
I reply: Sir, a man in his native state of condemnation must first be justified, i.e righteousness applied to him, before the Holy Spirit has divine warrant to regenerate him. The Holy Spirit does not regenerate condemned sinners... He regenerates those whom God has justified, and not until then. They work in perfect unison. It is regeneration that enables a man to believe.
You are saying that God gives faith to unregenerate man in his native state of condemnation, so that he may believe... Your statement gives the impression that believing is the means to regeneration.
No, God must regenerate a dead man first before he can ever believe. The saving grace of faith is a grace worked in the heart by the indwelling Spirit... and the Spirit is given by God to dwell in a justified man.
It is completely useless giving faith to an unregenerate man - he is completely unable to use it... he is dead in trespasses and sins. In fact he is in active enmity against God.
Roldan
No sir..it is clear that you are thoroughly confused......unregenerate men CANNOT have faith but FIRST be REGENERATED in order to have faith. You are putting faith before regeneration....you obviously don't know what Regeneration means....it means to be Born Again....understand that and you will be coo.
Sing F Lau
I asked: "Does God give the grace of faith to a un-justified, therefore condemned dead man, so that he may believe and be justified by God? Is that what you believe?"
You replied: Absolutely, thats what Scripture teaches....Man must first be given the gift of Faith and is instantly Justified. Mans belief in the Gospel is a result of Grace through faith which Justifies on the merit of Christ Righteousness.
Let's see...
1. Please gives proof that God gives faith to a man in his native state of condemnation and death. Thanks.
- respectfully, that your imagination at best.
- what is the use of giving faith to the dead in trespasses and sins? Can he make use of it?
- Don't put the cart before the donkey!
2. Scriptures teaches that a man in his native state of condemnation and death must first be justified by God's free grace, to remove that condemnation by applying the righteousness of Christ to him personally, and by forgiving all his sins.
- This application of righteousness to an elect personally give divine warrant to regenerate an elect.
- Justification is justification of life - see Rom 5:18.
- No justification, no life. Only condemnation and death.
3. Regeneration is logically followed by adoption, with the gift of the Spirit to dwell in the child of God. It is that dwelling of the Spirit that works the saving grace of faith... thus enabling him to believe.
4. You are completely confused about the function of faith. Faith justifies ONLY in the experiential and evidential sense.
It is like breath justifies, certifies, evidences, vindicates... life.
Faith justifies that the believing man is ALREADY a justified man by God's free grace when he was still in his native state of condemnation and death.
According to your sola fide notion, Abraham was still a man in his native state of condemnation and death before the Gen 15:1-6 event!
He was justified by God when God called him in Ur.
He was justified by his faith when he believe in Gen 15:1-6.
They speak of two very distinct justification.
Thanks for listening. I wish to say no more. I wish you well sir.
I know where you are coming from... was there for 20 long years. God bless you brother.
Roldan
Man cannot be justified without Faith sir......Faith is the cause of our Justification not Justification the cause of our faith, Election only marks out Gods people then when the Elect is given faith he is Justified, the believer recieves the Justification that awaited him in eternity past......you are confusing your own confession of faith....which in reality is a copy cat of the WCF....you must first define your terms before continuing.
Again you are very confused.......are you a 5 point Calvinist? and do you understand each point?
Ricky Roldan You said: "Let's see...
1. Please gives proof that God gives faith to a man in his native state of condemnation and death. Thanks."
Eph. 2
"2:1 And you were DEAD IN TRESPASSES IN SINS 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body [1] and the mind, and were BY NATURE CHILDREN OF WRATH, like the rest of mankind. 4 But [2] God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, MADE US ALIVE TOGETHER WITH CHRIST—by grace you have been saved..."
"- respectfully, that your imagination at best."
Negative, all Scripture.
you said: "- what is the use of giving faith to the dead in trespasses and sins? Can he make use of it?
- Don't put the cart before the donkey!"
Because they are FIRST REGENERATED aka MADE ALIVE aka BORN AGAIN......AGain this is pure Scirpture.
you said: "2. Scriptures teaches that a man in his native state of condemnation and death must first be justified by God's free grace, to remove that condemnation by applying the righteousness of Christ to him personally, and by forgiving all his sins.
- This application of righteousness to an elect personally give divine warrant to regenerate an elect.
- Justification is justification of life - see Rom 5:18.
- No justification, no life. Only condemnation and death."
Wrong....Mans "native" condemnation is removed after being regenerated by the Holy Spirit giving that person Faith to believe therefore Christ righteousness being imputed to that person AFTER Faith not before it......again you are very confused on this matter.
you said: "3. Regeneration is logically followed by adoption, with the gift of the Spirit to dwell in the child of God. It is that dwelling of the Spirit that works the saving grace of faith... thus enabling him to believe."
Amen...absolutely. Your problem is you have God Justifying totally depraved spiritually dead unresponsive sinners so that God Justified that person for no reason at all but only because that person is Elect but you FAIL to understand that the instrument by which God Justifies is FAITH not dead unresponsiveness.
you said "4. You are completely confused about the function of faith. Faith justifies ONLY in the experiential and evidential sense."
Incorrect Faith Justifies ONLY in the legal sense.....you are in grave error sir.
you said: "Faith justifies that the believing man is ALREADY a justified man by God's free grace when he was still in his native state of condemnation and death."
This is a very confusing assertion here....
"According to your sola fide notion, Abraham was still a man in his native state of condemnation and death before the Gen 15:1-6 event!"
Negative...Abraham was Justified by His faith alone which was shown by his obedience......this is basic stuff bro.......even your own confession agrees with Reformed Orthodoxy as its a copy of our Reformed Confession of faith, the WCF
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Sing
My replies to Roldan were removed by the moderator Wee...
It is a pity that Roldan cannot distinguished between the LEGAL justification by the blood of Christ, and that LEGAL justification is applied to each ELECT PERSONALLY by the free grace of God when the elect was dead in trespasses and sins - how to have faith or exercise faith in that native state of condemnation and death. When justification is applied to an elect personally, righteousness of Christ is applied to him personally, thus giving divine warrant for the Holy Spirit to regenerate... leading to adoption by God... and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit who works the grace of faith in the heart, thus enabling the child of God to believe.
Believing is the ONLY instrument to experience the blessedness of justification that has taken place by the free grace of God based on the righteousness of Jesus Christ.
The folks here makes believing the instrument of getting justified by God. They believe that those un-justified, in their native state of condemnation and death, can believe and be justified by God!
As I said from the beginning, so many are ignorant, and wilfully ignorant of the distinction between several aspect of justification.
- Legal justification is based solely upon the righteousness of Chris: described biblically as "Justified by Christ's blood, justified by the faith of Jesus Christ, and justified by Christ."
No faith involved! That justification took place when you were not even born! Just as you were LEGALLY condemned in Adam before you existed!
The LEGAL justification is then APPLIED to an elect personally when God effectually call him outof his native state of condemnation and death to that of grace and salvation. Again, man's act of believing is not involved... dead man can't possibly believe.
Having been justified and regenerated and adopted, and indwelt by the Holy Spirit, a child of God is able to believe. Believing is the ONLY instrument for a child of God to experience the blessedness of the justification by the free grace of God based on the righteousness of Jesus Christ. No among of good works by a child of God will enable a child of God to experience the blessedness of his justified state by the free grace of God based on the righteousness of Christ. That's the precise BIBLICAL context of the 'faith alone' in justification.
Why are the 'wise and prudent' so blind to these obvious truth? A mystery indeed!
