What's the matter with you, sir?We hear this reformed shibboleth so often: "Grace Alone, Faith Alone, Christ Alone, Scripture Alone, all for the Glory of God Alone."
What do they actually mean? What is by grace alone, by faith alone, by Christ alone, by Scripture alone...? What is that one thing that is by those various things alone?
Surely one same thing CANNOT be by so many ALONE in so many ways in the same sense! Common sense tells us that the word ALONE implies EXCLUSIVITY.
Tuesday 26th April at 10:55pm
Sing F Lau
I believe each ALONE declares exclusivity in its own unique context and sense.
"Grace alone" speaks of the manner the eternal salvation is bestowed upon each elect. God applies that eternal redemption FREELY, the recipient is completely passive, being ...dead in trespasses and sins, incapable of meeting NO condition whatsoever.
"Christ alone" speaks of the basis of that eternal salvation; for it is by Christ's work of redemption alone that secured eternal redemption for those given to Him by the Father before the foundation of the world.
"Faith alone" speaks of the means by which the blessedness of eternal redemption ALREADY applied by God's free grace is EXPERIENCED. Abraham experienced the blessedness of the eternal redemption applied to him in Ur (Gen 11) when he believed (in Gen 15).
Abraham's faith (his act of believing in the promised seed) was imputed to him, THAT IS, he believing was blessed unto him to experience the blessedness of his justified state when eternal redemption was applied to him in Ur. His justification by God's free grace in Ur, and his justification by his faith in Gen 15 are two very different and distinct aspects of justification. Abraham believed BECAUSE he was already justified by God freely when he was in Ur of the Chaldeans. Believing evidence a justified state by God's free and sovereign grace.
"Scripture alone" speaks of the SOLE authority of Scriptures in declaring what we are to believe (doctrines) and to practice (conduct). That is to say, don't quote this reformer or that deformer, please! Appeal to Scriptures ALONE - prove and demonstrate your belief and practices from it ALONE, rightly divided, of course! Scriptures is not the FINAL authority. It is the ONLY authority.
When the four ALONEs are understood in these exact ways alone, is ALL GLORY to God alone... none to the preachers, and none to the saved whatsoever. Anything less, God's glory is robbed and usurped.
Eternal salvation is indeed by God's free and sovereign grace.
God purposed eternal redemption for His people by Himself;
Christ secured eternal redemption for His people by Himself;
The Spirit applies eternal redemption to each elect by Himself;
- all these WITHOUT any aid or assistance or consent or cooperation of any man.
THEN and ONLY THEN, a man is enabled to respond to the gospel call... which brings temporal salvation to God's children (those to whom God has applied eternal redemption by His FREE GRACE.)
That is not to say that God has ordained the gospel ministry as the means to bring temporal salvation to those whom He Himself, by His free and sovereign grace, has bestowed eternal salvation.
It is eternal salvation already bestowed by God's free grace that enables a man to believe the gospel for his temporal salvation from lies, falsehood, and superstitions, etc.
The eternal salvation that enables a man to believe, and the temporal salvation (pertaining to this temporal life only) that comes from believing the gospel are TWO DIFFERENT and DISTINCT salvations.
Distinction is the essence of sound theology.
Shibboleth and platitudes father confusion and delusion.
Morrow
Wow Sing. . . You are soooo sound. And smart too. I am really impressed with you.
Thomas
That's a really impressive comment MM. Thank you for showing us your heart.
Lim
Pastor Sing, that sums up the correct understanding in the terms of grace, faith, scripture and Christ alone in salvation. if everyone follows this, they will understand the sovereignty of God in salvation and we have nothing to do in eternal salvation, only conversion we can get saved in truth, not entering God's kingdom.
Morrow
Hey Mark..You are right. I revealed my heart which at times is frustrated with the neat bow Sing puts on everything. In reality, the doctrine is not as cut and dried...and I do mean dried...as he and his admirers make it. I apologize for allowing the frustration to show. I hope you will forgive me if I made you uncomfortable.
Thomas
Knowing where one stands has never made me uncomfortable. You owe me no apology for your ongoing dry sarcasm. Neat bows and clear distinctions give joy to the hearts of those seeking truth. It is regrettable that your heart cannot rejoice in it.
Sing F Lau
Mighty Morrow and I are friends... he digs at me and I dig at him... but hollow sarcasm is indeed sick!
He is always unhappy when what I say EXCLUDES him from having any role in the eternal salvation of God's children.
He is NOT contented with that glorious honour that he has the privilege of being an instrument in the temporal salvation of God's children whom He Himself has produced entirely without Morrow's help!
He always fumes and raves when he is denied any role in the eternal salvation of God's elect.
I have never seen a midwife who fume and rage when she is told that she had no role in the conception of the life that she helped delivered!
Thomas
It is sad indeed when folks think OMNIPOTENT GOD needs a surrogate to help Him Father His children.
Sing F Lau
Mysteriously, there are two Michaels, and what a signal example of the grace of God.
One is a hardened veteran soldier in the Lord's service as a gospel minister and an adjunct professor of some sort.
The other is a young man (a bachelor in his mid-20s) and a relatively new convert to the gospel of Jesus Christ from his previous hopeless and graceless religion.
One Michael I have never met but have interacted with for around 10 years, and he hasn't come any closer to appreciating the UN-adulterated grace of God in the eternal salvation of God's own people.
The younger Michael I have met barely a dozen times, and his eyes dazzle when he hears of the free grace of God in saving him with eternal salvation in Jesus Christ.
What a mystery of grace! I stand amazed at the free grace of God.
And lo! "Lu 10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight."
Thomas
Amen and Amen.
Sing F Lau
"... that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent,"
Just in case some woolly heads think that the wise and prudent are those dead in trespasses and sins, let me preempt this by reminding them that God wastes no move.
Those dead ...in trespasses and sins are already utterly and completely incapable of discerning the things of the Spirit of God, and to say that God needs to hide spiritual things from such is to impute foolishness to God... schizophrenic men do waste moves, God does not!
But them learned and titled folks seminarians, i.e. the wise and prudent in their OWN EYES, such children of God among them are capable to receiving such spiritual things... but because of their own wisdom... God keep them in ignorance of such obvious and plain truth... to shame them!
Page
You leave us with no loopholes to disagree with. If I were a moderate Calvinist I would just have to be silent!!!
But I agree with you fully!
Morrow
"He is always unhappy when what I said EXCLUDES him from having any role in the eternal salvation of God's children.
He is NOT contented with that glorious honor that he has the privilege of being an instrument in the temporal salvation of God's children whom He Himself has produced entirely without Morrow's help!
He always fumes and raves when he is denied any role in the eternal salvation of God's elect."
I quoted you above Sing to highlight the flaws of our discussion. I am never unhappy when God does things without my input. I am content with glorious honor of being an instrument in the temporal salvation of God's children whom God has pro...duced entirely without my help. I do give my God all the glory for anyone's salvation...especially my own. I do not fume when I am denied a role in the eternal salvation of God's elect. Every person who has ever been saved in which i was allowed to be the mid-wife (as you say) I give God all the glory and praise for their salvation. But, contrary to you, I don't believe God using His written, preached word in the salvation of sinners is against his glory but enhances it. You always want to put faith...and preaching in faith...on the same basis as meritorious works. They are not. If I am sick and go to the doctor and he gives me medicine and i recover...I never say to myself...and neither does anyone else...well, I earned my healing by going to the doctor and taking the meds. I am proud that I was diligent enough to go to the doctor and I merited healing because I went to the doctor.
Page
Faith...and preaching in faith...on the same basis as meritorious works. - true! the regenerate and preacher merit God. Page 's favour and their temporal salvation is enhanced!
Morrow
Neither when I preach the gospel and see someone fall under conviction and come to Christ do i congratulate myself and and think how meritorious my work was...nor do I believe someone who really knows Christ will believe that their faith merited God's grace. The problem is you build this monstrous red herring ...call him a moderate Calvinist and began to beat all Calvinist who do not agree with you in every point as if they were all your red herring. It doesn't work with me. If there was ever a touch of humility from you it might be different. If there was a disavowing of omniscience....if you could ever admit that you could be wrong on a point here and there there would be less frustration with you. But I haven't seen that yet. No matter what the conversation is...if someone disagrees with you they are wooley headed, they want glory for themselves, they are to be pitied. On and on it goes until it becomes rather obvious and sickening.
Page
"..see someone fall under conviction and come to Christ do I congratulate myself and think how meritorious my work was..."
You have low esteem and false humility - when someone is born again under your preaching you should be proud of ...yourself. Perhaps without you, they would be lost and on their way to hell. You are an agent in regeneration! You should be exalted highly for your meritorious work. Even God maintains a dependence on you and without you, He is not sovereign!
Morrow
Just your twisted view Charles ....just your twisted view.
Charles..I believe God is able and would be just as glorified if He saved every elect person without me...period. But I am thankful that He has called me to preach and teach so that, by His grace,and in pure mercy to me, He would let me be a co-laborer with Christ You seem to thrive on twisting other people's words.
Morrow
Have you ever seen anyone fall under conviction and come to Christ? Do you know anything at all about experiential salvation?
Sing F Lau
Morrow, fuming and raving
What did I write that drove you so mad that you burst out in such dry sarcasm? I am just puzzled?
I don't want to remain in error... so please teach me.
Sing F Lau
Morrow @ "I am never unhappy when God does things without my input."
You are never unhappy??? You have always insisted that your preaching is NECESSARY to regeneration! UNLESS you have been converted to gospel conversion at last! You have insisted that your input of preaching is needed for the divine work of regeneration!
Morrow @ "I am content with glorious honor of being an instrument in the temporal salvation of God's children whom God has produced entirely without my help."
So, are you are admitting that God regenerates His elect people WITHOUT your input of preaching as the means, I.E. without your help? Have you abandoned gospel regeneration so suddenly?
Are you now seeing the truth that regeneration is in the realm of ETERNAL salvation, and not in the realm of temporal salvation, therefore OUTSIDE the scope and effect of your ministry?
In eternal salvation, God DOES NOT need your help at all. That way, the eternal salvation of every elect is certain and guaranteed. HOWEVER, ministers like you have been appointed as the means to bring temporal salvation to God's children.
Sing F Lau
Morrow @ "But, contrary to you, I don't believe God using His written, preached word in the salvation of sinners is against his glory but enhances it."
=======
This statement indicates that you are as confused as ever concerning the distinction between eternal salvation without means and temporal salvation with means.
This statement also indicates that you have not even understood me. Your "but contrary to you" is a poor and pathetic misunderstanding of what I have said.
Eternal salvation by God's free grace alone magnifies and enhances the glory of God.
Temporal salvation by God's appointed means alone magnifies and enhances the glory of God.
But you have mixed the two - pure grace with appointed work. This mixture demeans and adulterates free grace and rob God of His glory; and magnifies and gives man a role in the eternal salvation of man.
Sing F Lau
Morrow @ You always want to put faith...and preaching in faith...on the same basis as meritorious works. They are not. If I am sick and go to the doctor and he gives me medicine and i recover...I never say to myself...and neither does anyone else...well, I earned my healing by going to the doctor and taking the meds. I am proud that I was diligent enough to go to the doctor and I merited healing because I went to the doctor.
=======
Sir Morrow, preaching is work... work appointed by God for you. Morrow sir, believing is work... a work appointed and expected of God's children!
John 6:
28 ¶ Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
And Sir Morrow, temporal salvation is conditioned upon their works... whether meritorious or not I leave it to you and your folks to debate. One thing I am certain, without the WORKS of preaching and believing, there will be no temporal salvation. Temporal salvation doesn't come out of thin air!
Sing F Lau
Morrow, your example of going to the doctor is a perfect illustration to prove my point, and manifests your basic confusion.
If you are sick and go to the doctor... presupposes that you have been raised from the dead by divine power, i.e. saved with eternal salvation by God's freeeeeeeee grace. Your realizing that you are sick and going to the doctor has NOTHING to do with you being quickened from your state of deadness, BUT the effects and evidence of that quickening by God's free grace.
Your realizing that you are sick and going to the doctor will bring temporal salvation to you... bring something good to your WELL BEING... It has nothing to do with your BEING as a child of God, which is entirely by free grace!
Young Michael understood all these without difficulties... Grace indeed!
Morrow
We are illustrating two different things. I am talking about what constitutes "merit." You want to change the subject and apply the illustration in a way that I was not speaking of. It is a way to argue your point but legitimately. It is intentionally missing my point to make your own.
Sing F Lau
Doctor, you are the one who introduced the subject of merit, and I said i would leave that subject to you and your folks to debate. I am dealing with the issue that WORKS are involved in experiencing temporal salvation. And your work of going to the doctor is necessary to experience the temporal salvation of being healed of your sickness. And because you are proven wrong again, you say that I intentionally miss your point.
Morrow
You say: "And Sir Morrow, temporal salvation is conditioned upon their works... whether meritorious or not I leave it to you and your folks to debate. One thing I am certain, without the WORKS of preaching and believing, there will be no temporal salvation. Temporal salvation don't come out of thin air!"
My question: Can you have eternal salvation and it not result in temporal salvation?
Morrow
Paul contrasts "work" and "believing" when he said "for by grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God, NOT of works, lest any man should boast." Here works and faith are put in opposition to each other. And in many other places as well.
Morrow
You said: ""Faith alone" speaks of the means by which the blessedness of eternal redemption ALREADY applied by God's free grace is EXPERIENCED. Abraham experienced the blessedness of the eternal redemption applied to him in Ur (Gen 11) when he believed (in Gen 15)."
You give Scripture but the Scripture you give does not prove your point. You are giving your opinion in a way that makes it sound authoritative.
Morrow
You said: "Abraham's faith (his act of believing in the promised seed) was imputed to him, THAT IS, he believing was blessed unto him to experience the blessedness of his justified state when eternal redemption was applied to him in Ur. His... justification by God's free grace in Ur, and his justification by his faith in Gen 15 are two very different and distinct aspect of justification. Abraham believed BECAUSE he was already justified by God freely when he was in Ur of the Chaldeans. Believing evidences a justified state by God's free and sovereign grace."
IS THAT WHAT THE WORD IMPUTED MEANS?
Righteousness was NOT accounted to Abraham UNTIL he believed God.
So there are all kinds of places we disagree here but I don't expect you to admit your mistakes...oh well. See you later.
Hart
Dr. Morrow, of all places, do you think a dirtless baseball diamond is uncouth grounds for spittle? Parkview Field has opportunities for non-union workers ready to make plenty concessions. Hope to see you there soon! Thanks
Morrow
Richard, You have offered to help me find a new job several times. There are many unemployed folks out there. Maybe you should set up an agency :), since it is an interest you have. But you are barking up the wrong tree with me. You see......God spoke to me...called me...about 45 year ago...to preach His Gospel. I can't, nor do I desire, to do anything else. But keep trying...surely you can drum up some interest in your new business somewhere...Maybe Sing or Charles?
Sing F Lau
Morrow @ "Righteousness was NOT accounted to Abraham UNTIL he believed God."
==============
Dr Morrow, this is where you are ENTIRELY WRONG.
Without imputed righteousness, a man is STILL in a condemned unjustified man, dead in trespasses and sin. Such a man is incapable of believing.
This is your chief error. There is no accounting of righteousness in Genesis 15. If you insist that there is an accounting of righteousness to Abraham in Gen 15, then you are insisting that Abraham was still an UN-JUSTIFIED, a man still under condemnation before that occasion, i.e. in Gen 11-14.
Doctor, go read again Gen 11-14, and see whether you are reading a man who was already justified by free grace in Ur when God effectually called him (and accounted Christ's righteousness to him) or a man still under condemnation UNTIL he believed in Gen 15.
Do it, Doctor!
You see, Doctor, you just refuse or are INCAPABLE, of distinguishing the Legal justification applied to an elect personally by God's free grace where Christ's righteousness is accounted to a condemned man, and the EXPERIENTIAL justification by faith where the believing act of God's child is accounted to him to experience the blessedness of his justified state.
Accounting Christ's righteousness to a condemned man, and accounting the believing act to the believer are TWO COMPLETELY different things. Do you even begin to see this simple and obvious fact? Or are you really so obtuse?
Did I not say that distinction is the essence of sound theology???
Sing F Lau
Morrow @ My question: Can you have eternal salvation and it not result in temporal salvation?
=========
Good question doctor! I hope you didn't ask it rhetorically!
You insist that eternal salvation WILL ALWAYS inevitably result in temporal salvation... based on the notion that all that receive eternal salvation by the free grace of God will also be reached with the gospel ministry, and thus receive and experience the temporal salvation.
Since temporal salvation is CONDITIONED upon means, and since not all SENTIENT children of God are reached by the gospel ministry, they do not experience the temporal salvation that is THROUGH the means of the gospel ministry.
Sing F Lau
Morrow @ Paul contrasts "work" and "believing" when he said "for by grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God, NOT of works, lest any man should boast." Here works and faith are put in opposition to ...each other. And in many other places as well.
============
Doctor, the subject here is eternal salvation by God's free grace.
Eternal salvation is by the faith OF Jesus Christ, i.e. His faithfulness in securing righteousness in His work of redemption.
Here the WORK of Christ is contrasted with the WORK of man in securing eternal salvation... i.e eternal salvation is by God's FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE grace.
Here is the indisputable proof: PLEASE READ
Romans 3:
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
The righteousness of God's provision for the eternal salvation of His people BY the faith OF Christ, is THROUGH the redemption that is in of Christ!
The "BY faith of Jesus Christ" in 3:22 and "THROUGH the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" in 3:23 are speaking of the same thing - the GROUND and BASIS of eternal salvation.
And Eph 2:8-9 is most certainly speaking of eternal salvation... and the contrast is between the WORK of Christ and the WORK of man.
Sir, you are in a grievous and serious error... but that doesn't make you any less a child of God.
Sing F Lau
Sing said: "Faith alone" speaks of the means by which the blessedness of eternal redemption ALREADY applied by God's free grace is EXPERIENCED. Abraham experienced the blessedness of the eternal redemption applied to him in Ur (Gen 11) when... he believed (in Gen 15)."
Morrow replied: You give Scripture but the Scripture you give does not prove your point. You are giving your opinion in a way that makes it sound authoritative.
========
Morrow, read Gen 15:1-6, and tell me where I am wrong? Abraham was already a man justified by God in Gen 11-14.
But you would reject this and insist that Abraham was justified by God only UNTIL he believed in Gen 15. Therefore you are insisting that Abraham was still an unjustified man in Gen 11-14, i.e. he was still a man in his native state of condemnation and death.
And yes, your understanding of that passage is very authoritative!! (I speak as a fool to a wise and prudent man with foolish ideas).
The wise and prudent think the accounting of the believing act to the believer to experience the blessedness of his justified state by God's free grace IS THE SAME as the accounting of Christ's righteousness to a condemned dead sinner!
So wise and prudent... and so authoritative. And that's wet sarcasm.
Romans 4
4:1 ¶ What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Paul asked, WHAT WAS ABRAHAM'S EXPERIENCE?
In Romans 3, Paul has established that justification is by God's free grace ALONE, based solely on the righteousness of Christ ALONE. In Romans 4, Paul is establishing the point that that justification by God's free grace alone can only be EXPERIENCED by faith ALONE, and not by works of righteousness. By works of righteousness, a child of God WILL NOT EXPERIENCE the blessedness of his justified state by God's free grace. Believing is the means appointed to experience that blessedness.
Abraham is a CLASSIC demonstration of that truth.
And you won't have this because you are wise and prudent - in your own eyes.
Sing F Lau
Morrow @ "Righteousness was NOT accounted to Abraham UNTIL he believed God."
========
Scriptures:
Gen 15:6 "And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness."
...Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Please tell Doctor, what is accounted to Abraham in the above passages? What is the pronoun 'it'? What is the immediate antecedent? Is it the righteousness of Christ, or the believing act of Abraham?
It is so easy to imagine what the Scriptures say... and not let it says what it ACTUALLY DOES!
Doctor, have you heard of an acute disease called 'sound-byte-itis'????? Go to the Chief Physician to have this debilitating disease cured!
You are my dear brother!
Now your turn to dig in my garden!
I have weeded yours.
Michael
Much too late for me to start with this tonight but I continue to contend that you come to the Scriptures with your grid in place, see only what you want to see and explain away the rest. I take the Scriptures for what they say and try to dismantle my grids before I start. I will answer you tomorrow DV...Have a nice day.
Sing
The honour is yours to prove your contention.
I am always thankful to be shown my error, from the Scriptures. I have been shown wrong many times... and learned quite a bit along the way.
Michael
My contention is proved simply in the meaning of the word "impute." When God said he did it is his business. Your phrase "Abraham's faith (his act of believing in the promised seed) was imputed to him, THAT IS, he believing was blessed unto him to experience the blessedness of his justified state when eternal redemption was applied to him in Ur." Takes Paul's meaning of "impute" in Romans 4 and twists it to fit your own thinking. It is as simple as that. Please give the Scriptures that clearly teach eternal justification of the elect. I am not interested in your logic or conclusions or your grid. I am interested in the Scriptures that clearly teach eternal justification. Thanks...btw...I think if you go back through our posts and compare the sarcasm you will find it too strong on both sides.
Michael
Wrong Richard. Both translations prove the proposition that God justifies the ungodly by grace through faith. I do not understand why you folks can't understand that "faith" is not a work... believing God is the opposite of working to merit favor with God. Earlier when Sing quoted Jesus saying "This is the work of God that you believe on Him whom God has sent" it was like saying...this is the "work" i want you to do ...quit working and believe. I repeat. You come to the Scripture with your grid...you read it through Hyper colored glasses and you don't even know you have them on. Let the Bible say what it says without making it fit you view. Make your view bow before the Lord of glory.
Michael
A man starting to believe something is not a regenerating power. I have never said that. I believe God sovereignly plants spiritual life in a person by his word. The word of God is a seed of life and once planted it will bring forth fruit. I have said all along that my difference with Sing and his friends is not grace or whether God saves by pure grace or not...the issue between us is how does God dispense that grace. A person is not regenerated "when" they believe or "because" they believe but the regenerating word bears the fruit of belief. But...and I believe the Bible teaches this... it is at the point of belief that we are justified...that the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us, or put down to our account in heaven. Until belief, we are children of wrath even as others. I am not doing what many moderns do which is confuse regeneration with justification. Justification happens when a person repents of his sin and believes genuinely. That belief is the fruit or the result of a prior work of grace in the heart of the one believing. The question between us is... does God use means in regeneration? I contend that he does. God uses His word in the salvation of men and by it produces faith in them. Here is how the 1644 Baptists put it and I agree with them... "Those that have this precious faith wrought in them by the Spirit, can never finally nor totally fall away; and though many storms and floods do arise and beat against them, yet they shall never be able to take them off that foundation and rock which by faith they are fastened upon, but shall be kept by the power of God to salvation, where they shall enjoy their purchased possession, they being formerly engraven upon the palms of God's hands."
XXIV.
"That faith is ordinarily...... begot by the preaching of the Gospel,.... or word of Christ, without respect to88 any power or capacity in the creature, but it is wholly89 passive, being dead in sins and trespasses, doth believe, and is converted by no less power,90 than that which raised Christ from the dead." I am in agreement with these OLDER Baptists...Farther back than the OLD Baptists Sing likes to quote. I have mentioned this 1644 confession before and get no response to it. But those who teach that the preaching of the word of God is not .....ordinarily... used but that God's ordinary way of regenerating men has nothing to do with the preaching of the word find themselves in disagreement with this oldest Baptist document.
Michael
While I am quoting I thought you might like the 1689 Baptist confession of faith as well...
Michael
1689 on justification: Those whom God effectually calleth, He also freely jusifieth, not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous; not for anything wrought in them. or done by them, but for Christ's sake alone, not by imputing faith itself, the act of believing or any other evangelical obedience to them, as their righteousness; but by imputing Christ's active obedience to them, as their whole and sole righteousness, THE RECIEVING AND RESTING ON HIM, AND HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS, BY FAITH, WHICH FAITH THEY HAVE NOT OF THEMSELVES, IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD.
Michael
1689 cont. FAITH THUS RECEIVING AND RESTING ON CHRIST, AND HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS IS THE ALONE INSTRUMENT OF JUSTIFICATION, YET IT IS NOT ALONE IN THE PERSON JUSTIFIED, BUT IS EVER ACCOMPANIED WITH ALL OTHER SAVING GRACES, AND IS NO DEAD FAITH BUT WORKETH BY LOVE.
Michael
Listen to this statement of these OLDER Baptists... God did from all eternity decree to justify all the elect, and Christ did in the fullness of time die for their sins, and rise again for their justification; NEVERTHELESS THEY ARE NOT JUSTIFIED PERSONALLY UNTIL THE HOLY SPIRIT DOTH IN DUE TIME ACTUALLY APPLY CHRIST UNTO THEM.
Michael
I know Richard...it must be hard on you for me to quote these OLDER Baptists but here is one more 1689 Baptist confession quote...read it carefully. 1. The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe ......to the saving of their souls, ....is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts, .....and is ordinarily wrought by the ministry of the Word; .....by which also, and by the administration of baptism and the Lord's supper, prayer, and other means appointed of God, it is increased and strengthened.
( 2 Corinthians 4:13; Ephesians 2:8; Romans 10:14, 17; Luke 17:5; 1 Peter 2:2; Acts 20:32 )
Michael
The Baptist Philadelphia Confession says virtually the same thing about faith ordinarily being wrought by the ministry of the word or the preaching of the Gospel.
Michael
The Orthodox Creed of 1677...a Baptist confession... is even more specific on this issue......"
Michael
Brother, I can give you what these OLDER Baptist taught about justifying faith all night..but if I did...would you read them? I am just saying that these statements coming from some of the brethren (Sing in particular) that appear to represent what the old Baptist believe do NOT represent what they believed and what that means is that this assertion that those of us who believe what these OLDER Baptist believed are some recent phenomenon is just flat wrong.
Michael
Concerning the Blackrock debates I know that the issue was really one of methods. If I understand it correctly, the Anti-mission men objected to the methods..Sunday Schools etc., of the missionary group and they finally split. I realize and readily admit that unregenerate men have relied on methods and means that are devoid of the Spirit's blessing to try to advance their own reputations in the name of God. And I find those attitudes and the actions that come from them awful. But because the "evangelical" so-called church (many false Baptist churches included) do things in a wrong way and for wrong purposes does not mean that I am to turn from the Lord's command to disciple all nations. I believe much of what happened in those debates ended, on the part of both sides, as a reaction rather than a simple following of the Holy Spirit.
Michael
I will try to refresh my memory on the debates. Thanks
Sing F Lau
Dr Morrow, I stand amazed that you can quote all those statements from the 1689CoF, and still get stuck in your LIES of the righteousness is not imputed UNTIL you believe.
I GIVE UP. I GIVE UP.
God imputing righteousness which enables one to believe (receiving and resting in Christ): AND
God imputing BECAUSE/UNTIL one believes are two vastly different gospels. Do you get the point?
Thanks, BROTHER Morrow.
Sing F Lau
Morrow @ Listen to this statement of these OLDER Baptists... "God did from all eternity decree to justify all the elect, and Christ did in the fullness of time die for their sins, and rise again for their justification; NEVERTHELESS THEY ARE NOT JUSTIFIED PERSONALLY UNTIL THE HOLY SPIRIT DOTH IN DUE TIME ACTUALLY APPLY CHRIST UNTO THEM."
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Dr Morrow, I can't give up on you! I want to save your from your ERRORS.
Look at what you have quoted carefully.
Now, let me ask you this question:
UNTIL the Holy Spirit apply the justification personally, is an elect person able to believe?
Is it only after the Holy Spirit has applied that justification personally that enables an elect to believe?
Or is that application of justification personally conditioned upon the believing of an elect?
Which is which? The old Baptists declared the former.
Their stepchildren insist on the latter.
In a Circular Letter on Justification, issued by the Philadelphia Baptist Association, dated October 4, 1785, the following is stated.
"The reason why any are justified IS NOT because they have faith; but the reason why they have faith IS because they are justified." PBA
If you don't understand what it says, please let me know. I will unpack it for you. If you disagree with them, just say so.
Sing F Lau
Morrow @ Listen to this statement of these OLDER Baptists... "God did from all eternity decree to justify all the elect, and Christ did in the fullness of time die for their sins, and rise again for their justification; NEVERTHELESS THEY ARE NOT JUSTIFIED PERSONALLY UNTIL THE HOLY SPIRIT DOTH IN DUE TIME ACTUALLY APPLY CHRIST UNTO THEM."
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Dr Morrow, I can't give up on you! I want to save you from your ERRORS. Yes, listen to them CAREFULLY, please!
Why don't you learn something from the ancient fathers? I did, and they weaned me from the common errors of the modern new school Baptists!
You have missed one glorious truth about justification mentioned here. Understanding it will help to deliver you from so much confusion!
In this paragraph, the ancient fathers are declaring the MULTI-FACETED nature of the doctrine of Justification! And so many of their STEP-children are completely ignorant of this.
The Multi-faceted Phases of Justification
a. Justification decreed
- by God for all the elect, from all eternity
(this is what the ancient father term as 'eternal justification, but so many of their step-children stomped and raved thinking that the ancient says personal justification happened in eternity! Stupid illegitimate!)
b. Justification secured legally
- by Christ for all the elect, at the cross
- Christ's righteousness is legally imputed to all the elect.
c. Justification applied personally
- by the Spirit to each individual elect personally
- at effectual calling to grace and salvation (see 1689.10.1)
- Christ's righteousness APPLIED to individual elect personally.
- This enables a child of God... (because with the application of righteousness to him personally, eternal life is given. Justification is justification OF LIFE, Rom 5:18) to believe. In believe, there is another DISTINCT aspect of justification, stated in 1689.11.2!
d. Justification experienced /evidenced subjectively (para2)
- by the faith of each child of God
- at initial conversion and throughout life
- This is what we read in Gen 15:1-6!
e. Justification vindicated publicly on judgment day
- by God before the judgment throne
- on the great judgment day
Conclusion: Justification is a multifaceted jewel:
Justification is purposed, accomplished, applied, experienced, and finally vindicated.
DO NOT remain ignorant of these things. I once was... the old fathers taught me.
Without these distinctions, you will not rightly divide the word of truth!
Sing F Lau
The distinction between the Effectual Call and the Gospel Call is understood by the old fathers.
I really fear the old fathers are TOO LOGICAL and CONSISTENT for the liking of their woolly-headed stepchildren!
Effectual Call - by the immediate activities of the Triune God.
- to grace and salvation, thus securing the following
- justification (applied personally)
- regeneration (quickened from deadness)
- adoption into God's family, bestowed with the gift of the Spirit to dwell within, working all the saving graces.
- thus enabled to answer the gospel call
- thus distinct and prior to the gospel call
- of the effectually called, some have the gospel call, others don't (see 1689.10.3)
- effectual call is once, fully and eternally accomplishing its purposed.
Gospel Call - through the ministry of the word by Morrow
- to believe in the truth of the gospel of Christ
- through preaching, hearing, believing
- justification by faith... experiential, as well as evidential.
- gospel call to faith is ongoing and life-long.
- conversion to the truth of the gospel is a life-long process.
And I am working to have Dr Morrow converted to some aspects of the gospel truth.
Sing F Lau
Dr Morrow, let me put it in the simplest term I know how.
The gospel ministry as an instrument to evidence the justification ALREADY applied by God's free grace has been twisted and perverted as the MEANS to secure justification before God, I.E. "righteousness is NOT imputed UNTIL one believes."
And folks do not even know the difference. To many, 'what is the fuss' they retort! And they are oblivious to the stake involved.
Here is an example:
Supposing a man FREELY credited a $1b to your account while you were a condemned and declared bankrupt criminal (is that an adequate picture of a man in his native state of sin and death???), and settled ALL your debt too. And he sent someone to bring the good news to you. And you believed the good news of the FREE gracious act, and by faith you went to the bank to draw on the money.
Would it be SCANDALOUS and TREACHEROUS of you to claim that IT IS BY your believing the good news and going to the bank that caused the gift to be freely credited to your account?
(In this case, 'good offer' would be more accurate. "Good offer' speaks of something that will be done. 'Good news' is news that something has been done... gift already credited freely!)
THAT IS, the gift not credit UNTIL you believe! The gift was credited because or upon your believing! You decided whether such an idea is scandalous and treacherous!
Yet so many insist that... the righteousness of Christ was not imputed to them UNTIL they believe.
And worst, they don't really care, if they can perceive the vast difference!
Sing F Lau
I wrote this, "Since temporal salvation is CONDITIONED upon means, and since not all SENTIENT children of God are reached by the gospel ministry, they do not experience the temporal salvation that is THROUGH the means of the gospel ministry."
Mr Deac requested. "would you do me a great favour and elaborate a bit on what you have previously stated? "
Which part of the statement you don't understand? and which part do you believe is erroneous? Let me know and I will gladly elaborate.
Do you also believe that every child of God ALSO hears the gospel and is converted by the gospel ministry? Do you believe that? It seems to me that what you are saying amounts to that - but I am just inquiring. I know exactly where you are coming from... I was there for 20 years until I understood grace.
Benjamin
Without even looking at all of the controversy. This is easily revealed as yet another version of the popular theme of Satan in this day and time, "Individualism, Individual Sovereignty." (The latest gang related Security Threat Groups that Law-enforcement are now actively fighting.") (Nice words for separatism and division, something that is oh so ungodly.) Satan rejoices when we allow an ideology to drive us apart. He, Satan is promoting ignorance of the power of Unity and Christs' love, attempting to promote the prince of darkness, himself, these days are full of evil devices that are attractive to the ignorant and the slothful.
Good exampled here: Mark Chapter 3:
37 Whosoever shall receive one of such children in my name, receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me, receiveth not me, but him that sent me. <<< Togetherness is the power of God.
38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. <<< The confusion over Gods intent.
39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. <<< The diversity of Gods Kingdom is revealed.
40 For he that is not against us is on our part. <<< The army is made whole.
41 For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward. <<< The purity and simpleness of salvation is revealed.
42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone was hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea." <<< The straight forward bitterness of God towards those who are willing to walk on the necks of the little ones and the weak.
Dear Lord, please save us from this backward and gainsaying world of today, if we are to remain until that appointed day, give us all endurance until then. Amen.
Sing F Lau
Benjamin, thank you for your comments.
I am allowing you to explain how what you have posted is related to the subject being discussed. Otherwise, I will remove it. Thanks.
Sing F Lau
Mr Deac @ "Is God not sovereign to not only quicken His people but also reveal His Son in them? How do you know that not all of God's people are reached by the gospel ministry? I suppose I'm confused with the statement.
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God IS sovereign in the quickening of everyone He has given to Christ and for whom Christ has secured eternal redemption.
God IS sovereign in drawing everyone to Christ and uniting them to Christ in the effectual call to grace and salvation when they were still dead in trespasses and sins. In this sense, YES, God reveals His Son IN - IN - IN them, to each and every one of them in God's appointed and approved time.
This sovereign and free grace act of God ENABLES to know and receive and rest in Christ through the gospel ministry. In the gospel ministry Jesus Christ is revealed TO - TO - TO God's children. Without the gospel ministry, there is NO REVELATION of God's Son to God's children - those already united to Christ by God's free and sovereign grace, WITHOUT the aid or role of man.
The revelation of God's Son IN IN IN them deals with eternal salvation. This revelation is sure and certain by God's free and sovereign grace, without any human means.
The revelation of God's Son TO TO TO them deals with temporal salvation. This revelation is dependent upon the means appointed by God, and its success is conditioned upon many HUMAN factors.
Argument from sovereignty in this matter is a double-edged sword. What do you think if I say, "Not every child of God is like Paul or John Gill. Is this because God is not sovereign?"
Please remember that God's sovereignty and God's will are quite different matters. God is sovereign and completely capable of making every one of His children to be like John Gill... but that wasn't His will, was it?
Think of Paul's rhetorical question:
Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
A preacher is needed to reveal the Son of God TO - TO -TO God's children. Preaching and hearing are necessary for the revelation of God's Son TO - TO - TO God's children.
Sing F Lau
Mr Deac @ "That would presuppose that God's people here in this life can be Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, Papist, Mormon, works religionists, freewill worshipers, homosexuals, fornicators, cannibals, atheists, infidels, etc, so these people can live and die this way but because they are elect they will be in glory without ever experiencing "Christ in you the hope of glory"?
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Please tell, HOW would that presuppose? I would like to know.
The hard fact is: God's people (i.e. ALREADY born again) among such as you have named are converted to Christ by the gospel ministry. God's elect among born and lived among such and practice such religions are effectually called to grace and salvation by God's free grace... their life radically changed... they fear God and worship God of heaven... they work righteousness despite the fact of their ignorance of the gospel truth concerning what God has done to save them.
I was converted from Buddhism. My friend was converted from Islam. Another friend from Papacy, another from atheism, another from JW, another from Shintoism, yes, even some cannibals head hunters from the Sarawak interiors were converted! They were all God's elect who were born and grew up in such religions, brought to grace and salvation by God's free grace, and brought to gospel knowledge through the gospel ministry.
God's children may live and die with little gospel light if the gospel ministry fails to get to them. That would adversely affect their TEMPORAL salvation... but their eternal salvation is not one whit less than that of Paul or Gill!
"Christ in you the hope of glory" is revealed to God's children THROUGH the gospel ministry, bring great temporal salvation, i.e joy, hope, comfort, strength, in this life.
Sing F Lau
Mr Deac @ The old strict baptists of England contended for a work of the Holy Spirit which resulted in a personal, experiential knowledge of the truth as it is in Jesus, and its sanctifying effects in the heart and life, which of course is the polar opposite of Fullerism and duty faith law mongering. But i've never read anything like God's elect can live and die without any knowledge of their Savior.
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What they contented is TRUE.
But nowhere did they ever content that that is true of every child of God.
They explicitly acknowledge that there are God's children who do not have the benefit of the gospel ministry so necessary for their temporal salvation.
There is a knowledge that can only come through the gospel ministry.
There is an intrinsic knowledge that comes through the divine activity of God in effectually calling an elect to grace and salvation...
John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
The coming of Christ here is by God's divine activity of uniting an elect to Christ at effectual call to grace and salvation. There is no gospel here, i.e. it is not coming to Christ through the gospel call.
Sing F Lau
All the passages you quoted DO NOT even hint that ALL of God's children will hear and believe the gospel. If you think any does, kindly demonstrate. Thanks. I am always in learning mode.
Sing F Lau
Mr Deac, rest assured, no offence taken! None whatsoever.
Let's consider this passage:
Rev 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
We need to take this passage seriously too. It is also profitable for doctrine.
The great multitude are from ALL nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues. I would CONCLUDE from the above passage that this great multitude includes people from all those nations, and kindred and tongues named in Genesis... and those ancient ethnic groups not named in the Bible but existed in extra biblical records.
One can disagree with with that conclusion. Then let him explains the import of that statement.
If that conclusion is right, that some from those ancient tribes and kindreds are among that great multitude in Rev 7, then the question is, did they hear and believe the gospel? What was the gospel they heard? Who did they hear from? What was the gospel they heard?
One can either assume, based on prior presupposition, that every one of this great multitude have heard the gospel and believed the gospel. Then what is the meaning, "... lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues"?
Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation."
"... ALL nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues..."
"... EVERY kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation."
Did every individual of this great multitude hear and believe the gospel? - that's the billion dollar question!
Is hearing and believing the gospel a condition of entry unto eternal glory? - that's the trillion dollar question!
Sing F Lau
Dr Morrow quoted 1689.11.1
" Those whom God effectually calleth, He also freely jusifieth, not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous; not for anything wro...ught in them. or done by them, but for Christ's sake alone, not by imputing faith itself, the act of believing or any other evangelical obedience to them, as their righteousness; but by imputing Christ's active obedience to them, as their whole and sole righteousness, THEY RECEIVING AND RESTING ON HIM, AND HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS, BY FAITH, WHICH FAITH THEY HAVE NOT OF THEMSELVES, IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD."
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Doctor, may I ask a question, who does the pronoun THEY refer to: to those ALREADY justified by God's free grace, SOOOOO painstakingly described and qualified in the preceding clauses... OR to the UN-justified (thus still condemned) who needed to believe IN ORDER THAT the righteousness of Christ is imputed to them, and IN ORDER TO be justified by God?
A very simple question. Please answer it in your own heart. No need to tell me.
Doctor, do you actually understand what you are reading???
I suggest that you cure yourself of the dreaded disease called 'sound-byte-itis'!!!
Sing F Lau
1689.11.1 "Those whom God effectually calleth, He also freely jusifieth, not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous; not for anything wrought in them. or done by them, but for Christ's sake alone, not by imputing faith itself, the act of believing or any other evangelical obedience to them, as their righteousness; but by imputing Christ's active obedience to them, as their whole and sole righteousness, THEY RECEIVING AND RESTING ON HIM, AND HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS, BY FAITH, WHICH FAITH THEY HAVE NOT OF THEMSELVES, IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD."
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An outline of this paragraph:
1. Justification stated and defined
a. The context of justification
- Effectual call to grace and salvation: ‘those whom God effectually called, He ALSO…’
- Therefore they are never separated! Effectual call to grace and salvation involves justification, regeneration and adoption.
b. The active agent of justification
- God the Father: ‘He also…’ Whom He effectually calls, He ALSO justifies.
- So the distinct aspect here is the applied/vital justification at effectual calling.
c. The manner of justification
- Freely by God’s grace: ‘He also freely justifieth.’
- If 'freely', then it cannot be conditioned on anything! Even faith is EXCLUDED.
- Without man meeting any condition… for an unjustified man (under condemnation and death) can’t meet any!
d.. The essence of justification
- Errors negated: ‘not by infusing righteousness into them…’
- Truth affirmed: ‘but by pardoning their sins
- and accounting (a legal transaction)
- and accepting their persons as righteous…’
e. The ground of justification:
- Errors negated: ‘not for anything wrought in them, or done by them…’ Faith is something wrought in them. Faith, believing, is something done by them! Get that please!
- ‘not by imputing faith itself, the act of believing…’
- ‘or by any other evangelical obedience to them, as their righteousness…”
- Truth affirmed: ‘but by imputing Christ's active obedience unto the whole law …’
- ‘and passive obedience in His death …’
- ‘for their whole and sole righteousness.’
- imputing faith, the believing act of man is REMOTELY related to justification.
- Justification by God's free grace INVOLVES the imputation of Christ's righteousness - through the active and passive of Christ.
f. The evidence of justification
- Faith is defined as ‘receiving and resting on Him [Christ] and His righteousness.’
- Imputation of Christ's righteousness by God's free grace LOGICALLY and CHRONOLOGICALLY precedes the conscious reception of the same by man's faith.
- Justification by God's free grace is completed before believing is even possible! Unjustified man, therefore STILL under condemnation and death, is utterly unable to believe!
- Faith is a work of grace by the Spirit of Christ in the heart… not a native ability.
He who has ears to hear, let him hear and know the truth!
Sing F Lau
Morrow @ The Baptist Philadelphia Confession says virtually the same thing about faith ordinarily being wrought by the ministry of the word or the preaching of the Gospel.
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In a Circular Letter on Justification, issued by the Philadelphia Baptist Association, dated October 4, 1785, the following is stated.
"The reason why any are justified IS NOT because they have faith; but the reason why they have faith IS because they are justified." PBA
How is that, Dr Morrow?
Sing F Lau
Dr Morrow quoted the 1689.14.1
"The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls, is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts, and is ordinarily wrought by the ministry of the Word; by which also, and by the administration of baptism and the Lord's supper, prayer, and other means appointed of God, it is increased and strengthened.
( 2 Corinthians 4:13; Ephesians 2:8; Romans 10:14, 17; Luke 17:5; 1 Peter 2:2; Acts 20:32 )
========
I do agree with every statement in the paragraph above.
However, OUR subject of discussion is the place of faith, your act of believing in your justification before God.
You insist that believing is the necessary conditioned for the imputation of righteousness, i.e. justification by God's free grace. Your exact words, "Righteousness was NOT accounted to Abraham UNTIL he believed God."
May be that's why you brought in the paragraph above... hoping to prove your notion that believing is needed for your justification by God's free grace. You are grasping at straw!
Let me assure you that this paragraph teach no such nonsense. There is NO justification here at all. Here is the proof. Do you want to listen? I wonder sometimes whether I am wasting time explaining things to you... because the same old argument is repeated in vain!
The grace of faith is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts of them that He indwells. And this grace worked in the heart is ordinarily drawn out and made manifest by the ministry of the word. Faith cometh by hearing. Ordinarily, no hearing of the gospel, there is no drawing forth of that grace worked in the hearts of God's children by the Spirit indwelling them.
Supposing your notion is true... then you are saying that the Spirit works faith in the hearts of the unjustified (i.e. still under the condemnation of death, for justification of life is the alone means to rescind the condemnation of death, see Romans 5:18), SO THAT those under the un-justified, condemnation of death, may exercise that that grace of faith in order to be justified by God!
Sir, you are putting the cart before your impotent mule!
Please cure yourself of the 'sound-byte-itis'!
Please don't dishonour the old fathers by misrepresenting them.
Benjamin
Thank you, Brother Lau,
I do believe that God's Sovereignty is absolute, if His Sovereignty were not absolute, He would not be God. Oversimplified for some I'm sure, however with that resolved on my part, it frees up my mind for other aspects of God's love and power. One cannot appreciate the incredible good news of the everlasting gospel unless one understands God’s unique Agape' love. This love explains why God saved us sinful human beings (see also Ephesians 2:1-6 and Titus 3:3-5).
Otherwise, if we do continue the "God may not be absolute in His Sovereignty," thought process, soon we are then easily lead down the path that begins with for instance; Trying to figure out what God wants. And there again, for me the simplest answer would be that, God wants for nothing.
However, I do feel that there is an aspect of God's divine wisdom and love that is important to look at, when we start looking for a Cause and Effect relationship with experiences and teachings, they have an even greater effect on the joy of our salvation. Which is necessary in order to understand the whole basis for His pure love, it seems to me that there must always be a higher more noble aspect of Agape' that we may never know until we are in heaven listening to Him in purity.
Questioning His authority is not what we need to be doing and I'm not saying anyone is doing that, how and when we begin questioning the affects, of teaching, of experiences and so on is where I find that peoples lives become more than just an existence of energy that is in connection to their faith in God. I often find myself being pointed right back at the simplest examples given to us by the experiences of not only the day-to-day lives of those mentioned though-out the Bible but especially in the walk in time of Christ two thousand years ago.
There is a theme played-out (If you will.) over and over that is found to be held in common with them all.
First, there is prophecy, then a restatement of that prophecy followed by that prophecy coming into existence for man to see. This repetitiveness tells me that God has so designed for us to learn more of Him, than of temporal things.
This aspect of repetitive exposure and teaching supports the idea of a progression being involved with:
teaching -> learning -> acknowledging -> appreciation -> love -> adoration -> joy of salvation.
The process of teaching and learning about God and His Kingdom is shown as having the aspects of a reward system while we live.
Example Matthew 24: 14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
I feel that the most important aspect of this parable is surmised in this one little phrase; "to every man according to his several ability;"
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
An analogy could be drawn here, "digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.' with hiding ones knowledge of the gospel or their own faith in God.
The heart of the working / nonworking, walking / non-walking, etc. teaching -> learning -> acknowledging -> appreciation -> love -> adoration -> joy of salvation, is so clear in this to me. Notice these were already his servants, shall we say newly borne again servants, servants that God had appointed to answer the call of the Gospel? Yes I believe so, otherwise, there is no basis for the parable, unless you want to believe that man is capable of purchasing his eternal salvation. 😉
Two were obedient to His word, and one was not. Two received even more knowledge -> authority -> joy of experiences in this New Church Kingdom, (If you will.).
While one lost that with which had been entrusted to him. Why was the rebuke of this servant so harsh though? Let's look at what he accused God of being. He essentially viewed God as a marauder who simply took what He pleased without having a beginning vested interest. God always pronounces His investment in the well-being of His people. "Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, (Gods' yoke is easy and his burdens are light.) reaping where thou hast not sown, (God knew us long before we knew Him, invested heavily in our well-being and clearly states that He is coming one day to gather all of those whom His Son Jesus died for, <- I think God is a pretty good accountant instead of having a practice of being a hostile-propheteer.) and gathering where thou hast not strawed:." (We know that this is an extremely vile and contemptible contention because God says clearly in His rebuke, answers the servant with an intended reversal of the servants mode and method of (dis)belief.
Is there a salvation that is conditional, even conditioned upon the behaviour of man, even for those whom He calls his servants? There is no doubt in my mind, otherwise the Psalmist begged in vain for relief when he stated, Psalms 51:12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
I would love to hear someone expound someday on the 150+ times that the word; 'salvation,' occurs in the Bible, maybe when we all are sitting / standing in His presence one day, he will entertain our requests for clarity with orations that answer all of our hearts questions on the gospel.
Sing F Lau
Mr Deac, the hearing of the gospel requires a human preacher. No human preacher, no hearing of the gospel.
Romans 10
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
HOW SHALL THEY HEAR WITHOUT A PREACHER?
You might say that God himself is the preacher!
Yes, the UNSENT DIVINE PREACHER.
If that's the case, that is fine with me. But it doesn't fit the Scriptures.
Michael
Sing wrote..."Doctor, do you actually understand what you are reading???"
Yeah, Sing...I think I really do.
Michael
Sing...in your next answer where you supposedly answered my by outlining the passage... you simply placed your grid on it and proclaimed it true...that does not make your interpretation true.
Michael
You try to refute me by saying: "The grace of faith is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts of them that He indwells. And this grace The grace of faith is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts of them that He indwells. And this grace worked in the heart is ordinarily drawn out and made manifest by the ministry of the word" Those Older Baptists Did Not Say...And this grace worked in the heart is ordinarily drawn out and made manifest by the ministry of the word" What they said was.."is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts, and is ordinarily wrought by the ministry of the Word;" Do you know the difference between "made manifest" and "wrought?"
Michael
I AM saying that unjustified men upon whom the Spirit of God is graciously working are given the grace of faith and are not justified men until they believe....You are the one who is twisting the word of these men of God.
Michael
1. Those whom God effectually calleth, he also freely justifieth, not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous; not for anything wrought in them, or done by them, but for Christ's sake alone; not by imputing faith itself, the act of believing, or any other evangelical obedience to them, as their righteousness; but by imputing Christ's active obedience unto the whole law, and passive obedience in his death for their whole and sole righteousness by faith, which faith they have not of themselves; it is the gift of God.
(Rom. 3:24, 8:30; Rom. 4:5-8; Eph. 1:7; 1 Cor. 1:30, 31; Rom. 5:17-19; Phil. 3:8, 9; Eph. 2:8-10; John 1:12; Rom. 5:17)
2........ Faith thus receiving and resting on Christ and his righteousness, ..........is the alone instrument of justification; ......yet it is not alone in the person justified, but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but worketh by love.
Michael
Sing...how can you honestly twist what these old statements say? Men are justified by the pure grace of God...But the way that works is that Faith receives and rests on Christ and his righteousness...and is the ALONE instrument of justification. They did not believe what you believe... a group of men coming along seventy five to a hundred years AFTER them did...but they did not. I contend that the Calvinist who took Calvinism to the extreme of eternal justification were known as hyper-Calvinists for a reason. They went beyond Calvin AND the earlier Baptist leaders to an extreme that has been a point of contention ever since. I have no problem saying that I believe the doctrines of Grace...but I hate hyper-Calvinism as much as I hate easy believism. Both are heresies and I just don't like heresy. Now you can come back and sneer or use sarcasm or call me names or make comments on me being wooley headed or talk about sound-bite-itis or anything you want...but none of those things have anything to do with the conversation. You can't quote these old masters and say "I believe what they say" without twisting their words to fit your own ideas. It is obvious.
Sing F Lau
Mr Deac, if God has already preached the gospel to each one of His children, then why bother sending preachers to preach the same gospel to them?
I believe we are talking about QUITE different things.
Did God preach the gospel to Cornelius... before He sent Peter to preach the same to him?
Sing F Lau
Morrow stated and asked,
"What they said was.."is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts, and is ordinarily wrought by the ministry of the Word;" Do you know the difference between "made manifest" and "wrought?""
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My question to you is:
Do you know the difference between the work of grace worked in their heart by the Holy Spirit, and that grace of faith wrought by the preaching of the gospel?
One is the cause of the DIVINE WORK ALONE. The other is effect through the human's instrumentality of preaching of the gospel. They are two distinct and separate matters, the former is the DIVINE CAUSE, and the latter is the MANIFESTATION. The preaching of the gospel makes manifest the work of the grace of faith in the heart by the Holy Spirit.
The preaching of the gospel wrought out what has been PRIORLY worked in the hearts by the Spirit.
The grace of faith (a noun) is made manifest, evidenced through the preaching of the gospel, because faith cometh by hearing.
But of course, you will take this as faith is GENERATED and PRODUCED by the Spirit through the instrument of gospel preaching.
I take it as preaching is the instrument to MAKE MANIFEST the work of the grace of faith by the Spirit in the heart.
So, either you twist their words, or I twist their words!
Sing F Lau
Mr Deac, if John 6:45 is understood as God preaching the gospel to them, than what do you call the ministry of preaching by men?
Without the gospel ministry, God's people live in darkness!
Listen to this concerning the ministry of a preacher:
" 76 And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;
77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,
78 Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,
79 To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.
To give knowledge of salvation...
To give light to them that sit in darkness ...
To give light to them that sit in the shadow of death...
These are God's children... and they needed the gospel to do those things for them.
Let me ask you, was Cornelius IGNORANT and live in darkness concerning the gospel before Peter was sent to preach the gospel to him?
Sing F Lau
Morrow @ Sing...how can you honestly twist what these old statements say? Men are justified by the pure grace of God...But the way that works is that Faith receives and rests on Christ and his righteousness...and is the ALONE instrument of justification.
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Morrow, how can you honestly twist what these old statements say? Men are justified by the pure grace of God...But the way that divine work of justification is EVIDENCED is through FAITH... which is defined as the act of receiving and resting on Christ and his righteousness. Faith is INDEED the ALONE instrument of manifesting that justification by divine free grace.
God justifying us by free grace is the cause,
You receiving and resting in Christ and His righteousness is the ALONE instrument to evidence that works by God's free grace.
Who is twisting?
Sing F Lau
Mr Deac, I have said before that divine sovereignty is not the same as divine will. God is sovereign, having the absolute power and authority, to make every elect to live and die as, perhaps apostle Paul, for example. But it wasn't his will!
God has all the power and authority needed to ensure that every elect live and die a godly man in ripe old age... but is that His will? If you say that that is His will, then His will fails terribly! There are elect who died in infancy? Did God's sovereignty fail in their cases?
When we speak of God's sovereignty in the context of salvation, that sovereignty GUARANTEES the eternal salvation of absolutely every elect by God's own sovereign and free activity... apart from any human aid or cooperation.
For that reason, the divine sovereignty guarantees that each elect is equally justified in every sense by His free grace; each elect is equally regenerated in every sense; and each elect is equally adopted into God's family in every sense, and each elect is fitted for eternal glory in every sense... all based upon the same finished work in every sense.
However, the sovereignty of God DOES NOT extend to the temporal salvation of God's elect in a similar manner that it does over their eternal salvation. The temporal salvation of God's elect, their well being while here on earth is dependent and contingent upon many human factors. The temporal salvation of God's children is delegated, and through divined appointed means administered by humans.
DO I make sense?
Sing F Lau
Doctor Morrow, are you really that OBTUSE, or are you just wilfully ignorant?
Is God's act of justifying a condemned man by accounting the righteousness to him and forgiving him all his sins...
... the SAME as
the believer's faith justifying/vindicating/certifying the believer's justified state by God's free grace?
Are they not two distinct and separate acts, or are they two sides of one act?
I said it is the former, you insist the latter, i.e. man must believe, then righteousness is accounted to him! You believe an unjustified man, still under the condemnation of death, has the ability to believe!
Sing F Lau
Mr Deac @ Yes, but Peter was sent. What i'm looking for is plain scripture without inferences and deductions that God's people live and die in ignorance of the Person and Work of Christ.
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I do wish God gave plain statements all the time.
This would make redundant the command to STUDY and to RIGHTLY DIVIDE the word of truth'! It would have made things so much simpler!
Would you conclude that since Peter was sent, therefore a preacher was sent to every child of God for their gospel conversion?
Sing F Lau
"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction."
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Benjiman,
Those who bring in damnable heresies and deny the Lord that bought them, are they among God's children?
What was the destruction that such brought upon themselves?
What was the destruction that such brought upon themselves?
Thanks.
Benjamin
The destruction was/is a continual reciprocation down through the ages for those who knowingly and continually reject God the Father and those whom He sent. Example: "And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;"
"Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness" God has never been without a witness, in the beginning God Himself spoke directly to Adam, giving him both wisdom and the law as it existed for the garden.
Where there is no law, there is no transgression, since God gave the law to Adam there has not been a time when He, God has not had a witness of His law and wisdom. No one of God's people have ever been without the testimony and law of God's righteousness. 😉 There you go, question answered. Your welcome brother.
Sing F Lau
"For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them."
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Who do the pronouns "them" refer to?
Are they God's children or are they aliens?
Benjamin
I take it that you mean, "Who do the pronouns..." in the rhetorical sense.
Anyone of God's children can fall into that category at any time, God plainly states that He has no pleasure in the death/destruction of the just or unjust.
God's people have the capability that God gave them to know without doubt when they hear the truth, which comes without any process on the part of the child of God. Therefore then when they have heard the law/truth/wisdom from God and reject it they are denying all that God made them capable of hearing. There is always both a natural and a spiritual consequence for this rejection.
Benjamin
Night night Brother Lau 😉
Michael
man·i·fest (mn-fst)
adj. Clearly apparent to the sight or understanding; obvious. See Synonyms at apparent.
tr.v. man·i·fest·ed, man·i·fest·ing, man·i·fests
1. To show or demonstrate plainly; reveal: "Mercedes . . . manifested the chaotic abandonment of hysteria" (Jack London).
2. To be evidence of; prove.
Michael
I did not know that wrought and manifest were synonyms ...I did not know that create and to demonstrate were synonyms... I did not know that "shaped by hammering with tools" was the same as to reveal. I have one of three ways I can think about what you are saying Sing...I can say...he is just dishonest, or I can say...English is a second language and he is not understanding the difference in the English words...or I can say ...he is just stubborn and cannot admit it when he is wrong. I choose to believe that maybe you just need to work on your English a little bit...Wrought and manifest are not synonyms.
Sing F Lau
Dr Morrow, may be all the three ways are possible <LOL>
What makes you think I say that wrought and manifest are not synonyms???????
May I inquire, Doctor, if the Holy Spirit has not worked the grace of faith in the hearts of God's children (yes, God's children), would all the most eloquent and persuasive preaching of the Doctor be able to wrought anything???
The grace of faith worked by the Spirit of God in the heart is the CAUSE.
The act of believing wrought by the preaching of the gospel is an EFFECT.
And the EFFECT makes manifest the justified state of the believer.
I said faith wrought by the preaching of the gospel makes manifest the justified state of the believer by the free grace of God.
Faith wrought by the preaching of the gospel "shows or demonstrates plainly" the justified state of the believer.
I may be a chinese lad, but I am licensed by the Cambridge University to teach English. So, no need to boss around me with Amglish <LOOOOOOOLLLLLL>
Off to bed.
Michael
Sing said: "I said faith wrought by the preaching of the gospel makes manifest the justified state of the believer by the free grace of God." I know that is what you say...and believe... but that is NOT what the Older Baptist said. I wasn't trying to "boss" you concerning English. I was trying to assign a benign motive to your obstinance. But, since you know English so well it may be that one of the other reasons I offered is applicable.
Benjamin
From the mouth of babes...
What will be the most important thing on your mind when you see that the earth is folding itself into the firmament? Who knows how some folks learn, to stumble, or is it a simple temporary loss of clarity.
I've listened to some well-known (At the time.) ministers discuss (Argue.) at length, deep and moving subjects like, "What did the five smooth stones that David picked up in the stream bed represent?"
It took an hour for them to just get passed, the water that had shaped those stones and most important of all, those stones didn't shape themselves...
I don't know right off how many characters there are in the Greek, Hebrew or Chalde language for the word faith, but that is what they finally came to for a peaceful moment, just before the table was set and the sisters had, had enough so they said, "Come in here and bless this food before it gets cold."
At the dinner table silence was the leading topic until a young lady of about seven years of age looked at one of these learned ministers and said, "Do you suppose King David had enough of those rocks left over to kill the rest of Goliaths brothers...?" 😉
Benjamin
Sometimes simpler is better...
After the rock has done its job, it just lays there, inert and passive.
But a few grams of plutonium keeps killing for decades.
1
Sing F Lau
Mr Deac, they are your conclusions, not mine!
"... live in utter darkness concerning the Person and work of Christ" are YOUR WORDS. Even Adam had some light about the Redeemer in the proclamation concerning the 'seed of the woman.'
It is YOUR WORDS, and not mind, that some of God's elect can live and died as Buddists, Muslims, Mohammedans, Hindu, Papists, Infidels, Homosexuals, Atheists, Workmongers, Lawmongers, Freewill worshipers, etc."
I believe there are children of God who did not hear the gospel of Jesus Christ while on earth... I have biblical arguments but you wont have it. <LOL>
Your idea of hearing the gospel and my understanding of hearing the gospel in the biblical sense are VERY DIFFERENT.
Sing F Lau
Mr Deac said, "
You brought up elect infants. I don't believe anyone can prove from scriptures that all infants who die are elect."
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Elect infants are just that, elect infants.
What makes you think I must prove that the REST of the infants who died are also elect? Think straight! <LOL>
Get the point. What's the connection between the two?
Do infants come under the purview of the gospel ministry anyway? Do they?
I have always understood, from the Scriptures that only those who are capable of hearing and understanding are within the scope of the ministry of the gospel.
Here is divinely inspired logic, "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?"
The pronoun they are God's children - capable hearing, calling and believing - but who have not been reached. Without a preacher they would never hear the gospel... but they are still children of God, perfectly fitted for eternal glory.
BUT you insist that all such will have a preacher sent to them and they will hear the gospel. I say they are some such who are not reached by the preachers, and never heard the gospel.
Sing F Lau
Mr Deac @ " Were the infants God slaughtered in Noah's Flood elect? Were the infants God ordered Israel after the flesh to cut to pieces elect too? "
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May I inquire:
- Were there any God's children that perished in the flood?
- Were ALL the eight saved from the flood God's children?
- Did Noah's preaching reach all of God's children in his time?
- Is Ham an elect?
Please tell us!
Sing F Lau
Sing said: "I said faith wrought by the preaching of the gospel makes manifest the justified state of the believer by the free grace of God."
Morrow responded: I know that is what you say and believe but that is NOT what the Older Baptist said.
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I know what you want the Old Baptist to say: i.e. that as you PREACH the gospel, the Holy Spirit works the grace of faith in the heart of your HEARERS.... and as a result the hearers believe the gospel, and because they believe the righteousness of Jesus Christ is accounted/imputed/reckoned to them.
Do I represent you correctly? Assuming that I do, this with me for a little while and I will be done.
According to your view, if there is no preaching, there would be no working of the grace of faith in the hearts by the Spirit. And without the grace of faith worked in the heart by the Spirit, there would be no believing, and without believing, there would be no imputation of righteousness, i.e. there would be NO JUSTIFICATION.
Do I understand you correctly?
In your view, preaching and hearing and believing are prerequisite means/instruments for the justification of the condemned dead by God.
And you also INSIST that what you believe is still justification freely by God's grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.
