Gospel truth and its truthful presentation

A comb of bananas from my garden.

Michael quoted:
Thomas wrote: "Bro. Morrow, are you still an advocate of Amyraldianism - hypothetical univeralism?" My answer below.

Michael
I believe that every human being benefits from the death of Christ else God's justice would have been immediately executed upon the human race at the first sin. I also believe (according to Jesus) that men are condemned because they do not ...believe in the only begotten Son of God. In addition, I believe the the blood of Christ secures the forgiveness of sins and justification before God only for those who believe, or if it suits better, only for the elect. I would really like to see NT examples of Christ, the Apostles, or any other NT preacher not preaching the Gospel freely to any and all who would listen without any reference as to whether they were elect or not. In my opinion an obsession with God's secret decrees can be a subtle pit of pride to justify a fleshly unwillingness to confront all men with the claims of Christ.

Tim
Hey man, after all these years, you are still bellieving it right!

Sing F Lau
Brother Morrow, is it not PRESUMPTUOUS to confront ALL MEN with the claims of Christ as though Christ has died for ALL MEN?

Commanding ALL MEN to believe in Jesus Christ can only be honestly and truthfully said IF ONLY Christ had died for ...ALL MEN. Otherwise, where is the basis of telling that to ALL MEN, and commanding ALL MEN to believe that Jesus Christ died for them?

Surely there must be a way, to tell the truth, and tell it truthfully, and according to what Christ has actually done.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

He did not come to do some preachers will

17:1 ¶ These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

AS MANY AS..., not one more and not one less.

The method of presenting the truth must be according to the truth of the matter.

There is NO VIRTUE is misrepresenting what Christ has done.

Abraham
‎@ Michael
You said, "I believe that every human being benefits from the death of Christ else God's justice would have been immediately executed upon the human race at the first sin...."

Did the Devil benefit from the death of Christ because ...he hasn't been cast into the lake of fire yet? Did the man of sin (the anti-Christ) benefit from the death of Christ because he is allowed to deceive many on earth for a time?

The scriptures nowhere teach that Christ must die for some in order to appoint them for wrath in the day of wrath.

If Christ died for those who shall be damned in eternal hell, did He bear all their sins or not? If He bore all their sins, how are they cursed for any of their sins? If He bore some of their sins, how is their eternal redemption even possible if they shall eternally bear some of their sins?

Christ bore the sins of His people in His own body on the tree and those who end up in eternal hell bear all their sins upon themselves because Christ did not bear any of their sins upon Himself.

"Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed." [1 Peter 2:24]

Michael
Sing...is it not presumptuous to not obey Christ and not preach the Gospel to every creature?

Michael
Abraham, the bible clearly teaches that men are condemned because they do not believe in Christ. I do not believe Christ died savingly for those who are eternally lost but I do believe there is a sense in which Christ bore the wrath of God f...or the human race. Contrary to your false analogy of the Devil, Christ died for humanity...not individual fallen angels. The man of sin you speak of has one glaring sin, according to Paul. He lifts himself up as god...thus denying the God of Heaven and His Christ. Do you think the man of sin is MORE depraved than other lost people?

You said:" Christ bore the sins of His people in His own body on the tree and those who end up in eternal hell bear all their sins upon themselves because Christ did not bear any of their sins upon Himself."

I agree....but that does not mean that the saving death of Christ is the only benefit of Christ's death. Paul says even the creation itself will be restored when the sons of God are resurrected. That comes because Christ came to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.


Michael
Abraham, could you ever stand before a group of sinners and preach Paul's sermon in Acts 13:38-39 without preaching to them about God's secret decrees and hedging your message up with statements about particular atonement and election? I believe only the thirsty will come or can come...but my preaching a free Gospel of grace to those who will not come is a cause for great condemnation...the message is to some a savor of life unto life and unto others a savor of death unto death. But it is a savor to both!

Sing F Lau
I am tempted not to waste my breath repeating the same old things that we have gone through so many times since the days with Brainy Brian and Mighty Morrow!

Proclaiming the good news of what God has done for His people, and exhorting them ......among the audience to believe, knowing consciously that only those that ARE SAVED by God will respond to that gospel call,

IS A WHOLE WORLD OF DIFFERENCE FROM

Offering/Proposing salvation in Jesus Christ to every creature in the audience [of course based on the falsehood that Christ died for all of them], on the condition that if any will believe on Christ, they shall be saved.

WHOSOEVER BELIEVES HAS ETERNAL LIFE is the gospel... believing demonstrates the possession of eternal life, i.e. evidences the eternal salvation ALREADY bestowed by free grace.

Calling such to believe the truth of what God HAS DONE for them and what is already true of them, is the right and proper and true work of the preachers. Heralds and messengers announce the good news. They are not sent to HAWK some offers!

Self-sent preachers go around offering salvation to everyone, parading themselves as more large-hearted and generous than God and Christ himself, DECEIVING and LYING to every creature that Christ died for every one of them, and that if any would only believe, he would obtain eternal salvation.

There are heralds of the good news of salvation, and there are HAWKERS of salvation... a world of difference!

As difference as Morrow is from Marrow

Abraham
Michael, Acts 13 was not Paul's only sermon, nor do we have an account of all his sermons or the entirety of his sermons on certain occasions. However, we do have a basic outline in Romans of the gospel He was not ashamed to preach. Paul sp...ent an entire chapter on election and He constantly touched the effectual hope the atonement of Christ.

Many preachers today won't say a peep about God's electing love or Christ's effectual atonement before others. Is this done because it will make their offered opportunity of redemption sound really strange and even cruel? It is a horrifying thought to consider God offering eternal redemption to everyone and only intending to give it to some. This presents God as a spiritual abortionist. [presenting Himself as their redeemer and then aborting them into eternal hell] What a cruel message!

Electing love is implied in every single gospel promise in the scriptures. If one tries to hid God's electing love and His effectual atonement, they rob the child of God of the rich consolations of the gospel. In almost every epistle, Paul began his discourse by touching on election. They had no good reason to hide these glorious truths from God's children... and neither do you.

Sing F Lau
Acts 13:
38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: 39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
=============

Just who was Paul addressing?

16 Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience.

Not even Michael could have the same audience! Paul was obviously addressing God's children among the Jews... who were stuck on the Mosaic covenant... "from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses."

Abraham
‎@Michael,  You said, "Abraham, the bible clearly teaches that men are condemned because they do not believe in Christ."

Jn 3:17-18 is referring to a condemnation in the conscience. Through faith we are assured that we are not condemned because ...Christ died for us and loved us. Apart from this faith in Him, we lack assurance and we are condemned in our conscience through the terrors of the law exposing our sin. Notice, we are condemned already even before we believe on the name of the only begotten son of God. We remain under condemnation in our conscience until we believe.

It is important to understand that when we were enemies, Christ was not imputing our sins unto us or condemning us because He did not come to condemn the world. He came to love us and redeem us forever. But, until we believe on Him, we will never be assured of His wondrous love for us.

Our faith does not cause God to not condemn us. He never was condemning us. Christ became a curse for us and redeemed us from the curse of the law in great love to our souls while we were sinners. Our sins were condemned upon Christ and therefore God will not charge sin to His elect.

In light of this, we must understand that we are only condemned in our conscience through the terrors of the law until we believe on Christ. The ground of that condemnation is our love of darkness and the evidence that we are in that condemnation is that we do not believe on the name of the only begotten son of God. In other words, it is evident that one is condemned in their conscience because they have not believed on Christ.

Sing F Lau
‎.but my preaching a free Gospel of grace to those who will not come is a cause for great condemnation...the message is to some a savour of life unto life and unto others a savour of death unto death. But it is a savour to both!
=========

Preaching the glorious gospel is NOT NOT NOT a cause for great condemnation.

The decomposition and stench of a carcass is not caused by the life-nourishing bright shining sun! It only reveals and manifests the deadness of the carcass!

If it is a cause for condemnation, then it must be A CAUSE for salvation too, in the same, but opposite sense!

But that would be great error!

Abraham
‎"I do believe there is a sense in which Christ bore the wrath of God for the human race."

It is important to clarify that Christ did not bear the wrath for those who perish in hell because he did not bear their sins. Christ was cursed for t...he actual sins of actual persons. He was not made a curse for those who perish in hell in that he was not cursed in bearing the guilt and charge of their sins.

Furthermore, in as much as Christ did not bear the sins of those who perish in hell, their eternal redemption is utterly impossible. Therefore, there is no sense whatsoever that Christ died to offer an opportunity of eternal redemption for everyone that ever lived.

Michael
Thank you Sing and Abraham for posting. I have nothing else to say. Your own words show the twisting and turning you must go through to make your system work in the face of clear Scripture. I will preach the Gospel to all and leave it up to... God who comes and who does not...who accepts and who does not. You go ahead and hedge up every gospel message you preach to make sure no one gets confused and comes to Christ by accident. One of the things I have noticed is that, debates like this usually make one side or the other feel real good deep in the ego.I really don't think the issue is whether we have arrived at truth but if we have been seen to cleverly outwit the opponent so that he must concede the argument. It kind of makes me sick...and as you said Sing...I really don't won't to waste my breath on it any longer. It is obvious that only at the Judgment seat of Christ will this matter be settled between us. You preach Christ when and to whom you see fit and I will do the same. So, I leave it there.

Sing F Lau
Mighty Morrow, it is not right to slander me and than say, I leave it there! That's ain't no brotherly at all.

Maybe you still don't understand. Just because I say I preach the gospel consistent with what the Bible says about the free and full salvation in Jesus Christ, you slander me as hedging when I preach the gospel.

I don't need to hedge the gospel at all when I declare the gospel as the good news of what God has done to save His people in Jesus Christ, and that WHOSOEVER BELIEVES has eternal life, i.e. their believing EVIDENCES the eternal salvation that has been bestowed upon such by the free grace of God.

So where is the hedging that you so kindly accuse me of? Do you see the Apostle Paul ever hedging? He didn't need to because his message and his method are CONSISTENT!

There is no need for hedging because the good news is only intended, and relevant to those whom God has ALREADY bestowed salvation.

On the contrary, it is you who are telling you hearers a pack of lies and half-truth when you preach and offer salvation to all men indiscriminately on condition of their faith! I have pointed them out already... but you would not care... you still go on your own way!

And I won't leave you there. I care!
And don't de-friend me AGAIN!


Michael
Sing, you said: "I don't need to hedge the gospel at all when I declare the gospel as the good news of what God has done to save His people in Jesus Christ, and that WHOSOEVER BELIEVES has eternal life, i.e. their believing EVIDENCES the eternal salvation that has been bestowed upon such by the free grace of God. " I am glad that you preach Whosoever believes has eternal life." 

But do you have to do what you just did in the statement above and explain that " their believing EVIDENCES the eternal salvation that has been bestowed upon such by the free grace of God."....because if you do then that is what I mean by hedging...you are hedging up...putting a fence around the Gospel message...making sure you don't leave out "eternal salvation.' I don't see Paul doing that with the Philiippian jailer.

I don't see it anywhere in the NT where the Gospel was preached to the lost. The church of Christ think they have to include Baptism in the Gospel. Arminians think they have to add works to the Gospel. You seem to think that Election must always be preached when the Gospel is preached. I do not. I believe the preaching of Christ and His work is enough.

Now do I teach the deep things of God to my people? Of course...as deeply as I know. But in evangelism I have purposed to know nothing among people but Jesus Christ and Him Crucified and leave the hedging and selecting up to God.

Sing F Lau
Brother Morrow, you mean to say that I am hedging when I actually unpacking "whosoever believes has eternal life'... when I explain that God so loved that he gave His only begotten Son... such that He obtained redemption and eternal life for His people... telling them where eternal life come from... and how that eternal life is manifested?

And you claim that you preach the gospel without hedging when you keep your hearers ignorant of these gospel FACTS. What gospel is that? If you don't preach these gospel FACTS, facts of what God has done in Christ and where and how the eternal life that enables believing come about, then you are ACTUALLY DELIBERATELY withholding the good news of what God has done for His people from His people!

So many preachers DELIBERATELY lie to their hearers by leaving the impression that their believing is the means to obtain/possess eternal life!

I am not hedging. You are hiding the gospel truth from the hearers! Hedger hider! Nice rhyme huh!

Sing F Lau
But in evangelism, I have purposed to know nothing among people but Jesus Christ and Him Crucified and leave the hedging and selecting up to God.
==========
You preach Christ and Him crucified! Very good!
Why was he crucified? For sins. For whose sins? Tell the hearers the truth. Don't leave them to believe lies.

Crucified for whom? Tell the truth. Don't lie to the hearers.

What did his crucifixion achieve? Redemption? Whose redemption? All? Then offer to all!

Who is Jesus Christ? Why did he come? To save! Save who? Tell the truth. Don't lie to the hearers.

You can preach Christ and Him crucified without proclaiming those gospel facts! What a wonder! Shibboleth is not enough, gospel, peddler!

Michael
I am saying that "Christ Crucified for sinners" is the message...not Christ crucified for you if you can discern election in yourself. It is the old argument of "What gives the right to receive the Gospel? Is it that Christ died for sinners or that the sinner has within himself evidences that Christ died for him in particular." I say Christ and his death is the warrant for sinners to believe. You seem to say preach Christ and if you can find thirst in you...or faith or other evidences then you can come. Now...I am not being mean to you. I am not calling you a liar...as you have me...nor am I saying I don't care about the truth. I just don't believe the conversation is going to profit either one of us so...I bid you good night.

Abraham
‎"You go ahead and hedge up every gospel message you preach to make sure no one gets confused and comes to Christ by accident... you are hedging up putting a fence around the Gospel message..."

Michael, are you concerned that election will make a hedge that keeps people from thinking redemption is an offered opportunity? Jesus was not concerned about this, because He never preached His eternal redemption as an offered opportunity or a message to condemn people.

Jesus preached on His election of grace before people who considered it a hard saying. Does this offend you?

[emphasis added for clarification]
"ALL THAT THE FATHER GIVETH ME SHALL COME TO ME; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of ALL WHICH HE HATH GIVEN ME I SHOULD LOSE NOTHING, but should raise it up again at the last day." [John 6:37-39]

"Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. NO MAN CAN COME TO ME, EXCEPT THE FATHER WHICH HATH SENT ME DRAW HIM: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And THEY SHALL BE ALL TAUGHT OF GOD. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me." [John 6:43-45]

"These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum. Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, THIS IS AN HARD SAYING; WHO CAN HEAR IT? When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, DOTH THIS OFFEND YOU? What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? IT IS THE SPIRIT THAT QUICKENETH; THE FLESH PROFITETH NOTHING: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that NO MAN CAN COME UNTO ME, EXCEPT IT WERE GIVEN UNTO HIM OF MY FATHER." [John 6:59-65]

"As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I LAY DOWN MY LIFE FOR THE SHEEP. And OTHER SHEEP I HAVE, which are not of this fold: THEM ALSO I MUST BRING, AND THEY SHALL HEAR MY VOICE; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." [John 10:15-16]

"But ye believe not, BECAUSE YE ARE NOT OF MY SHEEP, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I GIVE UNTO THEM ETERNAL LIFE; AND THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH, NEITHER SHALL ANY MAN PLUCK THEM OUT OF MY HAND. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." [John 10:26-29]

Abraham
‎"...you are hedging up putting a fence around the Gospel message making sure you don't leave out "eternal salvation.' I don't see Paul doing that with the Philippian jailer."

What's wrong with preaching that salvation is eternal? Paul preached much more than that to the Phillippian Jailor. Many of the epistles to church comfort us with election in the first chapter. Election was never treated as a hedge in the epistles. But, it certainly does hedge up a strong wall against the false message of Jesus trying to redeem everyone that ever lived by offering an atonement that may not even cover their sins.

[Emphasis added for clarification]

1 Corinthians [The Election of Grace is brought up in the 1st Chapter] "For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But GOD HATH CHOSEN the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and GOD HATH CHOSEN the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, HATH GOD CHOSEN, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: THAT NO FLESH SHOULD GLORY IN HIS PRESENCE. But OF HIM ARE YE IN CHRIST JESUS, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord." [1 Corinthians 1:26-31]

Galatians [The Election of Grace is brought up in the 1st Chapter] "But when it pleased God, WHO SEPARATED ME FROM MY MOTHER'S WOMB, AND CALLED ME BY HIS GRACE, TO REVEAL HIS SON IN ME, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood." [Galatians 1:15-16]

Ephesians [The Election of Grace is brought up in the 1st Chapter] "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as HE HATH CHOSEN US IN HIM BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: HAVING PREDESTINATED US unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein HE HATH MADE US ACCEPTED IN THE BELOVED." [Ephesians 1:3-6]

1 and 2 Thessalonians [The Election of Grace is brought up in the 1st Chapter of the first epistle and again in the second chapter of the second epistle.] "Knowing, brethren beloved, YOUR ELECTION OF GOD." [1 Thessalonians 1:4] "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because GOD HATH FROM THE BEGINNING CHOSEN YOU TO SALVATION through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth." [2 Thessalonians 2:13]

2 Timothy [The Election of Grace is brought up in the 1st and 2nd Chapter] "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but ACCORDING TO HIS OWN PURPOSE AND GRACE, WHICH WAS GIVEN US IN CHRIST JESUS BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN." [2 Timothy 1:9] "Therefore I endure all things FOR THE ELECT'S SAKES, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory." [2 Timothy 2:10]

Titus [The Election of Grace is brought up in the 1st Chapter]
"Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, ACCORDING TO THE FAITH OF GOD'S ELECT, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; IN HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE, which God, that cannot lie, PROMISED BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN." [Titus 1:1-2]

The Epistle to the Hebrews [Distinguishing Grace is brought up in the first 2 Chapters] "Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for THEM WHO SHALL BE HEIRS OF SALVATION?" [Hebrews 1:14] "For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee. And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and THE CHILDREN WHICH GOD HATH GIVEN ME." [Hebrews 2:11-13]

1 and 2 Peter [The Election of Grace is brought up in the 1st Chapter] "ELECT ACCORDING TO THE FOREKNOWLEDGE ["pre-arrangement" - Thayer's Greek] of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied." [1 Peter 1:2] "Wherefore the rather, brethren, GIVE DILIGENCE TO MAKE YOUR CALLING AND ELECTION SURE: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall." [2 Peter 1:10]

The Gospel of John and 2 John [The Election of Grace is brought up in the 1st Chapter.] "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." [John 1:12-13] "The elder unto THE ELECT LADY and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth." [2 John 1:1] "The children of thy ELECT SISTER greet thee. Amen." [2 John 1:13]

Sing F Lau
I am saying that "Christ Crucified for sinners" is the message...
=====
Yes, Christ died for sinners. And don't you have to explain that religious slogan, so that your hearers know what you are saying?

1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

How did He save? He lived and died in their place. Now, that is good news.

And what is the state of the sinners that he came to save? Dead in trespasses and sins - in enmity against God, in rebellion... willing servants and slaves of sins. Gospel most eloquently preached is foolishness to such.

And what did he do to sinners that he came to save? He gave them eternal life... and they hear His voice.

And WHOSOEVER BELIEVES HAS ETERNAL LIFE....


Michael
As I said Sing...you must preach it as you believe it and I will do the same...sleep well.


Michael
Abraham... I believe every scripture you quoted and all the rest of the Bible as well.

Sing F Lau
‎You must preach it as you believe it and I will do the same
========
That's a sleepy conclusion to this discussion
If I am wrong, you must persuade me. How can you leave me in my error? I won't do that to you!

19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

But the way you preach it is inconsistent and misleading even though you are genuinely sincere!
Sleep well? It is exactly NOON now in this corner of the world.
You sleep well, brother and ready for the morrow!

Asa
Sing, regardless of who is right or wrong here, I must say that you should be ashamed of your manner of conversation with all the sarcastic remarks and caricatures of those whom you speak with. It is not just this conversation either. I've seen a lot of your posts. I pray the Lord would open your eyes to this matter because even if you understood all mysteries and all knowledge and have not love, you are a clanging cymbal.

"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)

"In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves" (2 Timothy 2:25)


Sing F Lau
Asa, thanks for your kind words.

However, I don't even know you, but I have known and converse with Michael for a long long time and we have discussed about these related issues on more occasions than you can count!

I don't pretend to understand much of the Bible... so there is no need for such irrelevant frivolities. However, the little I do understand, I want to hold to them consistently... and that is the point of my discussion with Michael.

Why, if I come across sarcastic to you... even Paul uses sarcasm sometimes when he reasons and wrestles with his recipients!

Michael
It is true Asa. Sing and I have talked about these things in other chat rooms etc. When we found Facebook we just continued the 15 year-long discussions here. I think Sing has a sharp pen at times...but then you should see the things I have said to him. I have not always been filled with charity I am afraid. Thank you for reminding us both that our comments are up for the world to see and that we should maintain civility and not call one another liars and unlawful sons of our Baptist fathers. One of the things about this internet relationship is that I can constantly show Sing where he is wrong and he never misses a beat...he always comes back for more. ( I know that last statement will set him off) :). Do pray for all of us who try to give out our beliefs here that we will be filled with the sweet Spirit of Christ and that the world will know that HE lives because we love one another. Thank you again.

Piper's Insufficiency vs Denner's Obstinacy

The bird is intensely focused on the subject at hand!

An appalling quality of discussion...
people are incapable of engaging, and sticking to
the issues under consideration anymore!
They waffle and drift, etc.

Dennis Keesee posed a question
True or False: "A faith that only looks back to Christ’s death and resurrection is not sufficient…. Forgiveness for the Christian also depends on having a futuristic faith in God’s promises. Thus we cannot regard justifying faith as sufficient if it honors only the past fact of Christ’s death and resurrection but does not honor the future promises of God…"

Berge
So when CHrist said it was finished He was lying?

Allison
Hebrews 6:1 kjv Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection ; not laying again the foundation of repentence from dead works, and of faith toward God.

Marks
False. We are saved 'through' faith, it is not the justification. Christ's redeeming work is our justification.

Allison
I don't understand where you are coming from ...there was no opinion in my post that was pure scripture from the kjv bible

Marks ‎
Jimmy Who are you referring to? All our posts refer to the main post.

Allison
Shooowee, false this and false that I just don't know who is saying what's false. What is false here precisely?

Keesee
This quote came from John Piper, believe it or not.

England
Gotta be false for those who put their trust in Christ. But in what context is he talking? Does your disagreement with his teaching, in your opinion, mean he is not saved? So many Christians stop trusting God for many reasons. Does that mea...n God never saved them to the end, in spite of false teachers and mean Christians? That seems an oxymoron. I know a few and have been accused of being one myself.
Heb 10:39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

Keesee
Dan, If you die apart from Christ, He -never- knew you.
He did not know you and then stop knowing you.

"On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I -never- knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.' - Matt 7:22-23

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us." - 1 John 2:19

Does that answer that question?

As for Piper, he mentioned this in his book called 'Future Grace' which splits Justification into process, not a past-tense done deal on the basis of Christ's finished work.

It's not a done deal to him. You cannot be saved unless your faith becomes 'faithfulness' ... which is active faith in the future grace of God.

Piper said this is Christianity Today:

"Present justification is based on the substitutionary work of Christ alone, enjoyed in union with him through faith alone. Future justification is the open confirmation and declaration that in Christ Jesus we are perfectly blameless before God. --[This final judgment accords with our works.]-- That is, the fruit of the Holy Spirit in our lives will be brought forward as the evidence and confirmation of true faith and union with Christ. Without that validating transformation, there will be no future salvation. "

England
God sure didn't save a smart people did He.

Ariyeh
It is amazing to read that DJ and not get angry. What I find interesting is if you only give the quote many of our friends will say "that is heretical".

But, when you tell them who believes and who wrote the book defending it, they take a... step back and go into defensive mode. All of a sudden they are trying to tell US that we are taking him out of context or he didnt mean it that way, etc.

All those who disagree with that statement that DJ posted but defend the person who wrote it need to have a reality check in your Christian life. Do you really know the gospel?

It must also be pointed out that the original statement was made by an Arminian. So we would expect bad theology like this, But, when a so called "sovereign gracer" uses it as a springboard to write a book, this should be very troubling for us.

The statement is anti gospel. It is heretical and it must be dealt with.

Anyone who reads that statement and tries to defend such a statement is either very confused about the gospel (which I doubt) or they are not saved. To agree with such a statement is to say you believe another gospel.

To defend the man who supports this statement is equally troubling as I said. In general, only a heretic would agree with the words of a heretic. God's people have the Holy Spirit and we are not deceived by this language. The gospel of grace resonates with us when we hear its beauty as it is explained.

What I hear in the statement is works. Me, me me! Final salvation; Future salvation; Future grace are all heretical concepts in the light of God's work.

May God have pity on the Christian who is supporting the man who wrote that statement. May the Lord open your eyes to your deception if you support John Piper.

Sing F Lau
May I ask, not sufficient for what?

England
what a crying shame that Christianity in America is so dysfunctional. But God said He was saving a people who did not know their left hand from their right. Wow God is always so right!

Martin
I don't know about anyone else, but I see God as living in the eternal now. Seeing everything from the begining to the end at once. He does not depend on the sequence of things as we do. When He said He loved, it was final, and eternally finished. He does not need to express His love again. He did it once when He crucified HIs Son.

Goddard
Amen, Bro. Bill! Go to the head of the class!

Martin
Didn't Jesus say it is finished. I thinks that the bibles teaches that the truely born agian will produce the works of the Spirit in His life, because it is the Spirit working, apart from whatever the person may or may not know. Perseveranc...e of the saints is the work of the Spirit in the saints.
Future grace is a strange term, it seems to me that you cannot dictate to God that He will give you grace in any given situation.

Sing F Lau
When Jesus said it is finished, what is finished?
Eternal salvation of sinners dead in their trespasses and sins?
Or the temporal salvation of God's children?
Or both?

Is the insufficiency with respect to eternal salvation by grace or the temporal salvation that God's children must work out for themselves?

God purposed eternal redemption for all His elect.
Christ accomplished that eternal redemption for the same.
The Spirit applied that eternal redemption to each elect... when they were dead in trespasses and sins, and worse still in enmity and rebellion against God.. all this without the aid or cooperation of man at all.

And those to whom the Holy Spirit applied eternal redemption, they are INSTANTLY and COMPLETELY and ETERNALLY and PERFECTLY fitted for eternal glory. What else is lacking? What else is deficient? What else is needed for eternal redemption?

Ah, many preachers insist that God needs their help in the eternal salvation of His elect!

Such are utterly deluded. God gives them the honor of nurturing the children whom HE HIMSELF has begotten sovereign. Preachers plays NO ROLE whatsoever in begetting! Preachers play their appointed role of nurturing God's children... teaching them that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world... and working out their OWN salvation with fear and trembling through their obedient responses to God's will for them!

So, wherein lies the in-sufficiency? Temporal salvation may be.
Most certainly NOT NOT NOT with respect to eternal redemption... else 'salvation by grace alone' is just a religious shibboleth and empty slogan!

Sing F Lau ‎
"A faith that only looks back to Christ’s death and resurrection is not sufficient...
===
If there is a faith that looks to Christ, it is proof that eternal salvation has been bestowed by God's free grace... and such a person has been made completely fit for glory.

WHOSOEVER BELIEVES HAS ETERNAL LIFE - is a declaration of fact.
So, not sufficient for what need to be defined!

Keesee
Sing, you mentioned two things that really bother me:

"Eternal salvation of sinners dead in their trespasses and sins? Or the temporal salvation that God's children? Or both?"
---and
"we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world... and working out their OWN salvation with fear and trembling through their obedient responses to God's will for them! "
Sing, Scripture does not divide the perfect and finished work of Christ at all. You cannot divide God's purposes of redemption into categories and Scripture does not make that application.

We -have been- Justified and we -have been- Glorified. This language of certainty is used by God to show it's unfailing and unchanging character.

We do not add to or 'work out' our own salvation. The verse says more than you decided to mention: "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, ---[for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.]---" - Phil 2:12-13

This is not the working of man in any sense of the word. It is God working in us. You must be more careful with your language otherwise you are mixing law and gospel.

"So, wherein lies the in-sufficiency? Temporal salvation may be.

Most certainly NOT NOT NOT with respect to eternal redemption... else 'salvation by grace alone' is just a religious shibboleth and empty slogan!"

Sing, these words are anti-Christian.

I will not even play games with you about this. You either repent of attacking the perfect work of Christ or your posts will be removed and you will be blocked permanently.

"Most certainly NOT NOT NOT with respect to eternal redemption..."

If your religion cannot admit that the finished work of Christ -IS- sufficient for eternal redemption, then your religion is demonic.

"For by a single offering he has [perfected] for all time those who are being sanctified." - Heb 10:14

No debate Sing. You are very wrong sir.

Sing F Lau
‎"If your religion cannot admit that the finished work of Christ -IS- sufficient for eternal redemption, then your religion is demonic. "
==========

It will do you well to read and understand what I have ACTUALLY written.

All I have written is EXACTLY stating that the FINISHED WORK OF CHRIST is all that is needed for ETERNAL redemption of God's elect.

Why don't you read it again... reserve your knee-jerk reaction!

Sing F Lau
And remember, God is not only interested with the ETERNAL redemption of His elect. That is completely and fully taken care of by Christ alone, and applied to each elect by God's free grace alone.

He cares ALSO for their temporal salvation, their WELL-BEING as His children in their lives here and now... and He provides the means for His children to work out their OWN temporal salvation here and now.

Keesee
Sing, we have no part in any type of salvation.
"for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."

No credit to us at all sing.

The entire process of Salvation, however you want to divide it, is completely accomplished by the finished work of Christ alone and has nothing to do whatsoever with the abilities of man, true or false Sing?

Sing F Lau
Listen FB friends, I have nothing to do with Piper.
I am only interested with what he has written, and trying to figure out what he is saying.

His words:
"A faith that only looks back to Christ’s death and resurrection is not sufficient…. Forgiveness for the Christian also depends on having a futuristic faith in God’s promises."
======

Let us try to understand what he says.

Imagine believer Jonny's faith only looks back to Christ’s death and resurrection...
And imagine Denny's faith NOT only looks back to Christ’s death and resurrection, BUT ALSO forward to the glorious return of Christ;

Whose faith is fuller or more adequate in granting them hope and comfort?

Their faith have NOTHING to do with their eternal salvation, EXCEPT that it EVIDENCES that eternal salvation by God's free grace. If Piper insist that faith is the necessary instrument to obtain salvation, then he is preaching another gospel.

For him to write 'forgiveness for the Christian ALSO DEPENDS on..." enough to evidence that he preaches ANOTHER gospel. Salvation by grace is just a religious jargon and shibboleth to him!

Keesee
Sing,
"Their faith have NOTHING to do with their eternal salvation..."

"For by grace you have been [saved through faith]..." - Eph 2:8
Do you reject that ?

"For we hold that one is justified [by faith]..." - Rom 3:28
To be Justified is to be redeemed.

"Therefore, since we have been [justified by faith], we have [peace with God] through our Lord Jesus Christ." - Rom 5:1

You are saved through faith Sing.

To reject that is to reject the Gospel.

Sing F Lau
Who is speaking of credit? You have just move the goal post!
Why don't you just admit your careless slander

12 ¶ Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out you...r own salvation with fear and trembling.
========
Sir, 'work out your own salvation.'
Your own salvation need your ACTIVE WORKING OUT.
You don't work, you won't have it!

You don't labor to read and study God's word, you will not enjoy the salvation of knowing the truth... you will suffer the pain of being ignorant, being toss to and fro by every wind of doctrine... God gives your His Scriptures. He does not read it for you... He does not rightly divide it for you... you must slog to study and believe it!

You don't labor to humble, and listen a bit, you won't learn your errors and grow...

I am saying all this generally... not Dennis personally

I am not talking about credit... I am simply stating that there is a temporal salvation that God's children MUST WORK out for themselves (Christ did not work it out for them... otherwise it would be UNIFORM for every child of God... which is obviously not true) - God has enabled them to do so, BUT THEY MUST DO THE DOING. If you want to deny this or cannot agree with this, please state it for all to hear.

Thank you, sir.

Sing F Lau
Dennis, you are just so crippled with sound-byte-itis!
I hope you still have some common sense left.
Consider this most simple and fundamental point:
Faith is a fruit and evidence of eternal salvation already bestowed... UNLESS of course you believe that a person in his native state of trespasses and sins can believe in order to get eternal salvation.

How can faith, which is a fruit and product of eternal salvation already bestowed to an elect, be at the same time, the instrument to obtain that eternal salvation?

The ONLY INSTRUMENTAL role of faith of a man is to EVIDENCE the eternal salvation ALREADY bestowed by God's free grace.

Is that simple enough?

Sing F Lau ‎
"For by grace you have been [saved through faith]..." - Eph 2:8
Do you reject that ?
=====
Whose faith? Yours?
You are crippled by sound-byte-itis!
Its truth is affirmed here. I have to post the link... unless you want me to paste the long answer here. http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2008/01/saved-by-grace-through-faith-whose.html

Sing F Lau
‎"For we hold that one is justified [by faith]..." - Rom 3:28
To be Justified is to be redeemed.
===========
Amen and amen.
By WHOSE faith? Yours? What is that faith? Your act of believing? Or Christ's faithfulness that secured righteousness?

What is the CONTEXT?

Beware of the epidemic call SOUND-BYTE-ITIS !!!!!

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Sins brought condemnation.
Justification requires RIGHTEOUSNESS... righteousness of Jesus Christ through His faithfulness in the work of redemption!

How did that righteousness come about? How did God provide it? Read what Paul said...

The righteousness of God's provision for the justification of His elect is............ by faith OF OF OF OF OF OF Jesus Christ....
and NOT NOT NOT your faith IN IN IN IN IN IN Jesus Christ.

But what is the faith of Jesus Christ? See verse 24.

The faith of Jesus Christ is His faithfulness in his work of redemption... justification is based on the faith OF Christ... through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.... read the text again!

In this whole section, Paul is demonstrating and proving LEGAL justification by the faith OF OF OF Jesus Christ... i.e his faithfulness in securing the righteousness for the LEGAL justification of His people.

Paul is not speaking of practical or experiential justification, which is indeed through faith IN IN IN IN Jesus Christ.

Keesee
Sing, this is your last chance my friend. You are speaking blasphemy.

"As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned." - Titus 3:10-11

This is your second and final warning to repent of your false teaching. You -are- self condemned by these words:

"Their faith have NOTHING to do with their eternal salvation..."

This is anti-Christian. (Eph 2:8, Rom 3:28, Rom 5:1, et al.)

"Sir, 'work out your own salvation.'
Your own salvation need your ACTIVE WORKING OUT.

You don't work, you won't have it!"

This is also anti-Christian.

"Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness." - Romans 4:4-5

"For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse..." - Gal 3:10

"I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose." - Gal 2:21

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." - Eph 2:8-9

Sing... Please repent. If you will not, please keep my email address. It's 4wardex@gmail.com
If the Lord grants you repentance I will always be available to reaffirm my love for you.

Brown
It sounds messed up but I'd have to see the context in which it was said. He may be talking about the "once saved, always saved" crowd.

Sing F Lau
Dennis, thanks.
I have said not a little. Saying more would be redundant and a waste. God bless you brother!
I will stop here.

I wouldn't mind your love is you are cured of your sound-byte-itis first, else your love for me may ALSO infect me with the same disease.
God bless you Dennis, and may your eyes be opened a little.

England
Such wisdom and yet such unbelief in God's ability to save all who call upon the name of Jesus.

Sing F Lau
All who call upon the name of Jesus DO SO BECAUSE they have been saved by Jesus Christ with eternal salvation. Without eternal salvation already applied to them personally by God's free grace, they would still be in their native state of sin and death, in enmity and rebellion against God.


Calling upon the name of the Lord is a fruit and effect of the eternal salvation applied personally to such person... thus evidences that glorious eternal salvation by God's free grace!

Dennis thinks this is blasphemy!

Eternal salvation already applied makes possible the calling upon the name of the Lord Jesus and the temporal salvation that results from the calling upon the name of the Lord CANNOT POSSIBLY the same salvation...

Simple and basic... the life that we received from our parents and which enable us to live, and the life that we get through our living our lives given by our parents are two different lives.

Dennis
Sing, you say say that faith has nothing to do with eternal salvation.
That -is- heresy.

Sing F Lau
Dennis, you can repeat that all you want.
Shout louder and more often, and the dead will soon breathe so that their breathing is instrumental in getting them life!

The fact and truth remains: faith is an effect of eternal salvation ALREADY bestowed.

You breath is the fruit and effect of the life given to you.
But you insist that you breath is instrumental in obtaining that life. And that idiotic idea has spawn another more idiotic idea... a dead man is able to breathe in order to get life.

A blind man can never see his own blindness, can he?

Ariyeh

I am still looking for "temporal salvation" that sing sang about a few posts back. That would also imply temporal justification-temporal sanctification-temporal sealing of the Spirit, etc.

Secondly, on another issue is the OSAS statement. I...f a person has been born from above he or she has been given very specific promises and one of those promises is ETERNAL LIFE.

To deny this promise from God's word because one is insecure or has small faith is understandable. But, to deny eternal salvation/eternal life because someone refuses to accept that God saves and He keeps those in His hand, is heretical.

He started the work and He finishes the work. If He says He will complete that which He started then who is man to suggest it impossible?

I am very comfortable saying a man that is saved is always saved. I have no problem saying once saved always saved. The question then becomes, are you saved? Are you truly one of God's? Is justification a process or is it a legal declaration? We can start there.

It would be asinine to throw out this statement because even jellyfish say they are saved. So do the Morons and the JW's. They are no more saved then hoppy toads so why assume they are osas?

The elect of God are secure. He has promised this to His children. Many are called (not once saved or ever saved) and few are elect (saved)

Sing F Lau

There is an eternal salvation for every elect that has been purposed, secured and applied to each on of them... all by the free and sovereign grace of God.

With regard to eternal salvation, every elect is saved to exactly the same extend and... degree in every sense.

An ignorant child of God is no less justified by the righteousness of Christ, no less regenerated, no less separated from his native state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation, no less destined for eternal glory....than smart theologians like Moshe and Dennis.

Temporal salvation of God's children in this life is conditioned upon many human factors, which is all too plain to notice... some of God's children enjoy a great deal more than others. There are those who sit under a faithful ministry, with vigilance, working out their own salvation!

Oh yes, it is God who works in all His children to will and to do... but God's children respond to that divine working in vastly different measures, thus experiencing vastly different measures of temporal salvation in their lives here on earth.

Fallacious Distinction is the cause of Faulty Theology

Which is covered with invigorating snow, and... killer ash?

The erroneous distinctions leading to a load of confusion!

Dennis posted
A self professed Christian just said that I try too hard to seperate faith and works... Praise God!

I am glad that enemies of Truth actually realize that I am separating them. The Gospel is one of pure and free grace alone, apart from works. Works and faith are absolutely antithetical.

"Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?" - Gal 3:2
Sunday at 1:26am

Holbrook
Works are proof of spiritual fruit to ourselves and proof and testimony of our faith to others, but do not contribute to our salvation before God. A faith without works is a dead faith.

Houston
Yet Jesus said we would be Judged by our works and words. Why? Because a man speaks and does what he really believes. His works can never justify him but his works are evidence of his faith. An apple can never be the life in a tree but an apple is evidence the tree is alive.

Dennis
Rondey, you have to be careful with that language.
Are you saying that our works and our words will determine whether we are saved or not?

Brugger ‎
"Works of The Law" a third use of the term 'works' seperate and different than mankinds or ones own works, and seperate and different from Godly or God's Works,, Lest we do our works according to His Way or Will rather than our own ways and means, or according to the Policies of the then pharisees and scribes and other jews we work in vain.

Brown
I might add faith without God ordained works is dead :-) hope you and Chip are feeling better or get weller soon lol :-)

Brugger
There I go trying to make my self a righteous part of His Body by proper use of His Grace Mercy and Wisdom that cannot be bought or manufactured by our selves.

Dennis
David, Would you agree with this statement:
There is no work that a sinner can do to earn salvation?

Houston
Never! Justification comes by faith alone in the cross of Christ. But a person truly Justified will have a new nature that evidences by words and actions that he has been Justified. I am saying good works follows genuine faith as naturally as an apple grows on an apple tree.

Brugger
Thats what I am talking about Stephen.

Houston
Here is an interesting passage on the subject.

Matt. 12:33Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
35A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
36But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Brugger
Faith is a work or a Fruit, so if you don't have Faith, nothing will save you, and just saying you have either is enough, must actually be True,, Grace and Truth come by Christ Jesus,, why does The World refuse to allow Him to guide us In T...ruth rather than just making it what they call 'spiritual' rather than seeking Truth rather than just the counting The Offer as a done deal..
I know I am Radical, therefore to call myself a Christian Citizen of His Kingdom I had to renounce alliegence to other realms.
His Grace may be enough, but please do not deny that we could be led to walk In His Truth from there.

Houston
Faith is the root, works are the fruit.

Brown
Actually Christ faithfulness is the root of "ALL" graces and further more this was decided in the covenant of grace before "time" and the world began. As it is written not that we love God but that He loved is (His own) and sent His Son to die for us (those whom He set His love upon) and in Him have we become the sons of God.

Houston ‎
@Steven--Ok if we are going to split hairs here. :) When we speak of faith it must have an object. Faith in the context of Christianity always has Jesus Christ as the object. This same faith is also a gift of God. So the Gift of faith by Jesus Christ in Jesus Christ is the root and the only way to produce fruit.

Sing F Lau
No work is needed for eternal glory.
God's works alone is all that is needed for eternal glory.

Eternal salvation is completely and wholly and solely of the triune God alone.
... 29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

The works of the redeemed, including faith, is needed for their temporal salvation here on earth.

Faith, man's activity of believing is work too!
28 ¶ Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Eternal salvation is based on the redemptive work of Jesus Christ alone.

Temporal salvation is based on the faith and works of those ALREADY redeemed by free grace.

There is a FALSE distinction between faith and works, and there is a biblical distinction between faith and works.

BOTH faith and works are EVIDENCES and EFFECTS of eternal salvation ALREADY bestowed by free grace ALONE.

Dennis
Sing, Do you consider faith to be a work?

Skiles
I don't worry about salvation - I do good works for nothing.

Sing F Lau
What is the faith you are talking about? I don't pretend to know.
Anyway my answer is here. You missed it.

...Faith, man's activity of believing is work too!
28 ¶ Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

The inquirers want to DO... DO... DO... that they might WORK... WORK... WORK... the works of God.

Jesus replied directly to the inquiry thus: the work of God, i.e. they inquired about the WORKS of God, Christ pointed out the missing WORK (singular) in them... even the WORK of believing in Christ.

Yes, man's activity of believing in Christ is a work God requires of His CHILDREN.

BOTH... BOTH ... BOTH works and faith are EVIDENCES and EFFECTS of eternal salvation already bestowed by free grace, and both are needed for a child of God (become one by free grace ALONE) for his temporal salvation, his well-being here on earth.

Dennis
Kate, I thank God for keeping people like you from the desires within their heart.

Apart from the grace of God that He pours out upon those who hate Him, we would live in a constant state of chaos and anarchy.

God keeps people that hate Him from being as bad as they would naturally be.

The desires of your heart are only wicked continually and the only reason you appear to do anything 'good' is because God is causing you to for His own purposes.

You are self-deceived unfortunately. You may have become quite good at convincing yourself that you are pretty good, but before a Holy God your as filthy as it comes.

And I was too before God broke through my hatred of Him and saved me.

He can forgive your sin too, I urge you to call on the name of Christ for the forgiveness of sins and be reconciled to God.

He is more of a Savior than you are a sinner, to be sure.

Much love, I will pray for you more often.

Dennis
Sing, with respect, I would just like as simple answer.
Is faith a work performed by man or not?
...
Yes, No, or I don't know.
Scripture does tell us, so I expect a teacher of God's people to know the answer.

Sing F Lau
Dennis, liberty to inquire is yours.
Replying in mine. And I will gladly reply every worthy question.

There is a distinction between faith and believing.
Your question really ought to be"
"Is believing a work performed by man or not?
To that I answer in the affirmative.

Never mind, I will answer your question as it stands.
Faith is a saving grace worked by the Spirit of God in a child of God, along with all other saving graces. This saving grace of faith is drawn forth through the gospel ministry, and evidenced itself in the human act of believing.

You can choose where to slot my brief reply into the 3 alternative you offered.

I have learned not to use that approach - yes, no, I don't know. At least include one more if you have to insist on that method... others.

Dennis
The Greek word translated as 'faith' and believe is the same, it's 'pistis.'

I would encourage you not to draw any strict distinction between the two.

You still didn't answer me though. In your understanding of 'works' in the Bible, is faith... a 'work' or not?

Please try to offer a clearer answer if you can.

Sing F Lau
‎"Scripture does tell us, so I expect a teacher of God's people to know the answer."

There is one basic thing that the RBs and others are woefully blinded to. I speak as a ex-RBs for 20 years.

Christ's righteousness and man's work are contrasted in the context of eternal salvation - how condemned sinners are saved.

Believing in Christ and the works of observing the old covenant ceremonial laws are contrasted in the context of temporal and experiential justification - how God's children will experience the blessedness of their eternal salvation by God's free grace. This was basically a Jewish problem.

A teacher of God's people who does not see this distinction ought to be ashamed.

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Dennis
I do not claim to be an 'RB' for the sake of confusing myself with the false system of Covenant Theology.

Sing F Lau
So, faith is a work of bearing fruit?
========
What a bewildering question!
Believing in Jesus Christ IS ITSELF a fruit of the eternal salvation bestowed by God's free grace.
A fruit cannot possibly be a work bearing fruit.
I have never heard of fruit bearing fruit. I am a farmer. It is always a tree bearing fruit.
Works of obedience is also a fruit of the eternal salvation bestowed by God's free grace.
BOTH works and faith are fruit/evidences/manifestation of eternal salvation bestowed by free grace.

Both are manifested by God's children to vastly varying degree - some none.

Dennis
Sing, Fruit of the Spirit can only come after Regeneration, it can not bring it about.
Believing is not a fruit of the Spirit, it is a prerequisite to have the Spirit to begin with.

Sing F Lau
Fruit of the Spirit can only come after Regeneration, it can not bring it about.
Believing is not a fruit of the Spirit, it is a prerequisite to have the Spirit to begin with.
==========
Let me make sure I understand what you are saying:
In your statement above, is that a distinction between 'regeneration' and 'have the Spirit'?
What is the relationship between them? Please tell us.
Does a regenerate have the Spirit of adoption dwelling in him,

OR must a regenerate believe first before the Spirit of adoption is given to him, i.e in order to have the Spirit?

Dennis
The Spirit dwelling in you is what Regenerates you, there can be no distinction. You cannot have spiritual life apart from the Spirit.

Sing F Lau
Thank you very much for the clarification.
Now please put these two statements of yours side by side, and tell us if they are consistent.

Statement 1:
Believing is not a fruit of the Spirit, it is a prerequisite to have the Spirit to begin with.

Statement 2:
The Spirit dwelling in you is what Regenerates you, there can be no distinction. You cannot have spiritual life apart from the Spirit.

Please show us that the 2 statements are consistent.
Otherwise restate them. Then I will discuss with you the truthfulness of those two statements.

I am only trying to understand you.
I believe BOTH statement are inaccurate at best. After you have considered them properly, I will explain what the two statement tell me. Then you can respond whether your statement say so.

Have a good night rest. I am off to work.

Dennis
I think I was trying the same thing in a different way, but I failed.
I think my contention here is that Paul makes faith/believe antithetical with work/fruit and my conclusion is then: believing cannot be a fruit or a work, lest we boast.

The outward expression -of- that belief that manifests in an appeal to God for a good conscience or some other outward expression of that belief is proof to others that you have been given the Spirit, but not proof to God for justification.

Does that help to clarify?

David
Does this from The Christ's Lawful Assembly fit this discussion?
1 Timothy 6:12, "Fight the good fight of faith [Action]"

Here, Paul expresses "faith" as an action, as something we are to fight for. Here is another verse which describes "fai...th" as a "fruit," or as a godly work:
Galatians 5:22, "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance…"

As you can see, scripture defines "faith" as a fruit. Scripture places "faith" in the same category as godly works. Therefore, if godly works is a verification of being a child of God, faith is also an evidence of being a child of God.

Those who say we are saved by faith only are full of half truths. Look at these passages:
James 2:24, "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." James 2:17, "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."

In other words, the relationship between faith and works is so close that in fact they are one entity.
James 2:26, "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."
Lord we believe, help our unbelief,,,

Sing F Lau
James 2:24, "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
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Take a peep here:
http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2008/01/by-faith-alone-vs-not-by-faith-alone.html

Dennis
Sing and David, I do agree that the outworking -of- faith is a fruit of the Spirit, but we also hear in Scripture that faith is a gift that is not of ourselves lest we boast. We also hear that the Spirit is granted and brings about regenerat...ion at the hearing of the Gospel. Sing does not like that at all for some reason, but Scripture teaches it:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for [it is the power of God for salvation] to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek." - Rom 1:16

"Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?" - Gal 3:2

"Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith?" - Gal 3:5

"While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who [heard the word.]" - Acts 10:44

The implication here is that the Spirit comes by hearing with a faith that is supplied by God.

When a person responds to the gospel, that is an outworking of the faith that God gives, the response to the gospel does not bring about faith and regeneration, it's the other way around. The faith is already there, regeneration has already taken place and therefore the natural instinct of a person with the Spirit is to respond properly to the gospel.

This is what James is speaking of:

"You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."

James is addressing people who are saying they have faith, but their deeds to not back up their statement.

"You [Christians] see [with your physical eyes] that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."

This means you can claim to have faith all day, but if no one can see it in action they are not obligated to accept your profession.

Abraham was certainly justified before God before Isaac was born and yet it was not until the situation with Isaac that God chose to record the event with Abraham to prove to his progeny that he was not just a man of talking, but also of doing.

He was justified or vindicated before men through his action, that is why God accounts it, so that we Christians can see in Scripture that Abraham was justified by faith alone when he believed and we would further see that a genuinely saved man will act like one when God tests Him.

Much love,

Sing F Lau
That's a long one!
I will chew it bit by bit and make it short. But that means several nibbles.

"I do agree that the outworking -of- faith is a fruit of the Spirit, but we also hear in Scripture that faith is a gift that is not of ourselves lest we boast. We also hear that the Spirit is granted and brings about regeneration at the hearing of the Gospel. Sing does not like that at all for some reason, but Scripture teaches it:
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The grace of faith IS IS IS a fruit of the Spirit. The out-working of that grace is the obedient response of a child of God. The former is wrought in every regenerate in exactly the same manner and degree. The latter differ vastly among the regenerate. Some manifests NONE - those who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the word.

Faith, i.e. the act of believing, comes by hearing. No hearing, whether because of ability or opportunity, no believing.

Understand?

The outworking of faith is believing. The grace of faith is worked WITHIN the regenerated, along with all other saving graces. The grace of faith is manifested in the act of believing the gospel of Jesus Christ.

The grace of faith is not a gift. Gift come from WITHOUT. A saving grace is worked WITHIN a child of God (a regenerated elect). The gift spoken of Eph 2:9 is eternal salvation by FREE GRACE, and the faith there is the faith of Jesus Christ as stated in Roman 3:22.

Rom 3
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

The faith OF Jesus Christ in v22 and the redemption that is in Christ Jesus in v24 are intimately related. The faith of Christ, i.e. his faithfulness in his redeeming work secured the righteousness needed for the redemption of His people.

Eph 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

If you care, read here on an explanation o Eph 2:9: "Saved by grace through faith, whose faith?"
http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2008/01/saved-by-grace-through-faith-whose.html.

Brother, with due respect, time to be cured from the common disease called SOUND-BYTE-ITIS! So many are distracted by the SOUND of the words, and miss the SENSE of the words.

And this is just a small nibble on the big chunk you served

Sing F Lau
Just another little nibble.

"We also hear that the Spirit is granted and brings about regeneration at the hearing of the Gospel. Sing does not like that at all for some reason, but Scripture teaches it:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for [it is the power of God for salvation] to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek." - Rom 1:16
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You should really do better.

In which of the above text does it say that the Spirit is granted and brings about regeneration? Please demonstrate! It is one thing to quote and another to prove your assertion!

There is none in Rom 1:16.

In fact apostle Paul called those Romans who have not heard the gospel, and to whom he was earnestly and urgently desirous to preach the gospel... pay attention to what he called them even though they have not heard the gospel:

6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.

He called them 'called of Jesus Christ, beloved of God, and called to be saints.' You insist that these are still dead in trespasses and sins, i.e not regenerated because the gospel has not been preached to them.

And just in case you imagine that they have heard the gospel from somewhere else, let Paul himself rebuke you:
"Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man’s foundation."

The others passage say nothing about your assertion.
You should really do better.

Dennis
Sing, "The grace of faith IS IS IS a fruit of the Spirit."

The faith itself is given as a gift and then as a result of having that faith we act faithfully. Abraham is -the- example of this. Because he was given faith, he was able to demonstrate it by acting faithfully towards God.

"The outworking of faith is believing."

I think we agree here. A profession -of- faith is proof that regeneration has occurred and that God has granted a person the gift of faith.

"The grace of faith is manifested in the act of believing the gospel of Jesus Christ."

I would respond the same way as above.

Thank you again for replying.

Please do not add links to your posts from now on. I appreciate your willingness to comment, but I have a rule of thumb to forbid all links. Normally, I delete them but I want to respect your time in writing the post and offer you a fair warning. I do this to limit my potential to lead others to websites that I have not approved or do not trust. I hope you understand.

Sing F Lau
‎"Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?" - Gal 3:2

"Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith?" - Gal 3:5
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Apostle Paul is dealing with experiential justification! Did they experience the blessedness by believing in Christ (hearing with faith) or by observing old covenant ceremonies (works of the law)? They have to ADMIT that it was simply by believing, and not by their observing the ceremonial laws, like they have been misled by the misguided believing Jews.

"While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who [heard the word.]" - Acts 10:44

If what you want to make this passage to say - the Spirit is granted and brings about regeneration at the hearing of the Gospel - then you must conclude that Cornelius was not a regenerated man, a man still dead in trespasses and sins, before Peter came to preach the gospel to him!

May the Lord open your eyes to see the PLAIN facts recorded in Acts 10 about Cornelius.

Sing F Lau
Thanks for your kind warning about linking.
I just thought that is easier, rather than saying the same thoughts. I have no fear of what I see as errors. They give me opportunity to put truth beside them and let people decide for themselves. When they wrestle with errors, they become more settled in their belief.

I have confidence in the ability of God's children, indwelt by the Spirit of God, to discern truth for themselves. Just set the issues before them... and they will learn the truth and grow up in grace and knowledge.

That's my approach and philosophy.
BUT I will respect your wish.

Dennis
Sing, Sing, Sing,
"In which of the above text does it say that the Spirit is granted and brings about regeneration? Please demonstrate!"

"Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?" - Ga...l 3:2

To receive the Spirit it to be Regenerate.

"But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, [not because of works] done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of [regeneration] and renewal [of the Holy Spirit]..." - Titus 3:4-5

"In fact apostle Paul called those Romans who have not heard the gospel..."

Wrong my friend. He addresses his letter to:

"all those in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints"

To all that are thee who are loved by God and called.

Paul's statement of his desire to come and preach the gospel is proof of the ongoing ministry of teaching the gospel to saints. It does not mean he wanted to come and preach so that they would be saved, they were already 'saints.'

The Gospel can be taught to believers as well as proclaimed:

"...Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, for which I was appointed a [preacher] and apostle and [teacher]..." - 1 Tim 1:10-11

The gospel includes milk and meat.

Dennis
‎"If what you want to make this passage to say - the Spirit is granted and brings about regeneration at the hearing of the Gospel - then you must conclude that Cornelius was not a regenerated man, a man still dead in trespasses and sins, before Peter came to preach the gospel to him!"

Sing, I would say that because Cornelius was a God-fearer before Peter came that he already had the Spirit. We don't have a lot of information in the narrative about his spiritual condition. For all we know he was regenerate before Christ came aka 'circumcised of heart.'

The pouring out of the Spirit in Acts 10 did two things. It brought about regeneration for those who needed it and granted the gift of tongues so that Peter would be convinced that God his willing that Gentiles come to Christ.

Dennis
And Sing, I believe that the gospel was preached to Abraham (cf. Gal 3:8) and that enough was revealed about the gospel to Adam and Eve to be sufficient for saving faith to be granted upon hearing the promises of Christ to come. (Gen 3:15)

I have no problem with believing:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for [it] is the power of God for salvation to [everyone who believes]..." - Rom 1:16

Sing F Lau
If you believe that the gospel was preached to Abraham, then who was the preacher? God himself? if that be the case, then you have blown your gospel regenerationist notion to bits... that preaching by man is not needed for regeneration!

But... what did Paul say?
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

It is not whether you have problem believing Rom 1:16. It is with what you claimed Rom 1:16 proves... you claimed it as a proof text for this notion: "We also hear that the Spirit is granted and brings about regeneration at the hearing of the Gospel."

In Rom 1:16, who are those that are able to believe the gospel as the good news declaring God's power to save? It is those ALREADY saved by God.

Paul said it: "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."

It is to them that ARE SAVED that the gospel is perceived as the good news declaring God's power in salvation.

Apostle Paul was writing to them that ARE SAVED in Rome, them that are "the called of Jesus Christ, beloved of God, called to be saints.." to make known to them the good news of their salvation by God's free grace!

Paul is very confident that the gospel will be good news to such.

DennisThe Gospel needs a proclaimer. That proclaimer does not need to be a man.

Sing F Lau
That's a helpful statement.
So, in your opinion, there must be a proclaimer... but that proclaimer does not need to be man. He can be God, or a donkey or mule, or a piece of stone?

Do I understand you correctly?

And God himself must preach the gospel in order that dead sinner may hear and be regenerated... and the same instrumentality is attributed to the human and other proclaimers.

Am I stating your understanding correctly?

When apostle Paul asked the rhetorical questions, "and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent?" did he have man or non-man proclaimer in mind?

Please tell us your opinion. Thanks.

Sing F Lau
"The pouring out of the Spirit in Acts 10 did two things. It brought about regeneration for those who needed it and granted the gift of tongues so that Peter would be convinced that God his willing that Gentiles come to Christ."

I want to ask you a simple question:
Was Cornelius still dead in sin and trespasses before Peter preached the gospel to him in his house?
Answer however way you want it, but answer it please.
Thanks.

Sing F Lau
"The gospel includes milk and meat."
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I love this wonderful statement.
Milk and meat are for the living.
Milk and meat were never, are never, and will never be instrument to bring lives to the dead.

Milk and meat are for the nourishing of those ALREADY regenerated... they are not instrument to regenerate the dead.

Basic and common sense. But the prejudice has blinded many.

Sing F Lau
Dennis, you made a staggering statement:
"To receive the Spirit it to be Regenerate."

You are the first person I have never heard such a thing.
Either you are very original, or I am not informed enough.

Now supposing your statement is true, let see what that means.

On the surface of it, the statement is MORONIC.
And this is the obvious reason.
Before regeneration, a man is dead in trespasses and sins. And worse still, he is in ENMITY and rebellion against God. And your statement say that such a man can receive the Spirit in order to be regenerated!

The verb 'to receive' PRESUPPOSES life, i.e. spiritual life.
Spiritual life is PREREQUISITE to spiritual activities.

Go figure what this passage means in light of your statement!

Ga 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

BECAUSE ye are son... and that is only possible BECAUSE OF PRIOR regeneration. So, regeneration is not only PRIOR TO, BUT DISTINCT FROM, receiving the Spirit.

Your addiction to the fiction of gospel regeneration has made you very confused and inconsistent

Keep talking... and tell me to SHUT up if you are tired of me.

Dennis
Sing, "there must be a proclaimer... but that proclaimer does not need to be man."
Correct.

"And God himself must preach the gospel in order that dead sinner may hear and be regenerated... and the same instrumentality is attributed to the human and other proclaimers."

God can proclaim it directly as with Abraham but has revealed that as of now, the method he has chosen is the preaching of the gospel by human preachers.

"and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent?"

We are in the New Covenant, the proclamation of the Gospel is the gospel call delivered by men.

"Was Cornelius still dead in sin and trespasses before Peter preached the gospel to him in his house?"

He was already a God-fearer so I would say no.

"Dennis, you made a staggering statement:
"To receive the Spirit it to be Regenerate."

You are the first person I have never heard such a thing. "

Regeneration -is- receiving the Spirit. The Spirit beginning to dwell within you is the means by which you are Regenerated.

"But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, [not because of works] done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of [regeneration] and renewal [of the Holy Spirit]..." - Titus 3:4-5

"And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules." - Ezek 36:26-27

This was what Nicodemus failed to understand about the new birth in John 3.

"And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!""

This is a reference to internal witness and assurance, not a teaching about Regeneration.

"For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, "Abba! Father!" The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God" - Rom 8:15-16

Sing F Lau
‎"Regeneration -is- receiving the Spirit. The Spirit beginning to dwell within you is the means by which you are Regenerated."

Distinction is the essence of sound theology.

Regeneration is the Spirit of God sovereignly acting upon an elect dead in trespasses and sins.

To the regenerated, God gave His Spirit to them as the Spirit of adoption.

The two are distinct acts - sovereignly and freely by God's grace.

You just insists on your own imagination... when plainest declaration is presented to you, you just ignore it, and continue on in the same imagination!

Ga 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

You statement is COMPLETE NONSENSE in light of this PLAIN TEXT. Please let your FB friends whether you don't understand, or you don't agree with that plain declaration from Paul.

BECAUSE ye are son... and that is only possible BECAUSE OF PRIOR regeneration. So, regeneration is not only PRIOR TO, BUT DISTINCT FROM, the giving and receiving the Spirit.

Either this PLAIN declaration by Paul is true, or you are confused and deceived.

An error persists in will spawn many other errors.

Sing F Lau
‎"Was Cornelius still dead in sin and trespasses before Peter preached the gospel to him in his house?"

"He was already a God-fearer so I would say no."

So, here is one concrete example of regeneration, PRIOR, and WITHOUT the gospel means.

And what about the Ethiopian eunuch?

And what about those devout Jews out of every nation under heaven that were CONVERTED by Peter's preaching? Were those DEVOUT Jews regenerated or were they still DEAD in trespasses and sins when they arrived in Jerusalem to celebrate Pentecost? 5 ¶ And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.)

Perhaps learning to differentiate regeneration by the Spirit of God, and the conversion through the ministry of word might help to remove all your difficulties!

You and I should really take the words of Christ VERY SERIOUSLY.

He said, "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."

Take note of His assertion, "SO IS EVERY ONE BORN OF GOD."

There is only one manner of regeneration: by the direct and immediate activity of the Spirit of God upon EVERY ELECT dead in trespasses and sins. And this is true for every elect of God, whether under the old covenant, or the new covenant.

But you, like many, have conjured up different ways... some with human preaching, some without human preacher, etc, etc.

Sing F Lau
‎"And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!""
This is a reference to internal witness and assurance, not a teaching about Regeneration.
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Is that the way you dismiss Scriptures?
Who is making this text to teach regeneration!
It is most certainly a passage that discredit your notion that "To receive the Spirit it to be Regenerate."
Do you ever admit your OBVIOUS sometimes?
How will you ever grow in grace and knowledge of you don't?
Scriptures is profitable for our reproof and correction TOO!

"And because ye are son" is a DECLARATION that NECESSARILY presupposes that regeneration MUST HAVE taken place to them. If you deny this, then please state so.

"And because ye are son" is PLAINLY distinct and PRIOR to God's act of sending the Spirit of His Son into the hearts the same. If you deny this, then please state so.

God's act of sending the Spirit of His Son most certainly precedes, and is DISTINCT from the act of receiving the same by the sons mentioned. If you deny this, then please state so.