 |
Object,
light, and shadow - how are they related? |
Wiebe posted this quote:
“A man is not saved because he believes in Christ; he believes in Christ because he is saved.” - Loraine Boettner
Mr Boettner's statement imply the salvation of a man is logically and chronologically prior to his believing in Christ? His salvation by God's free and sovereign grace enables believing. "Except a man be born again, he cannot..." But when a man is born again, then he is capable when the gospel ministry is brought to him.
Look at the various comments that followed that culminated in a Calvinist theologian revered by many RBs pontificated this magisterial declaration - "You err greatly regarding this point, believing that it is possible for the Elect to be already regenerate or justified chronologically prior to exercising faith."
Look at the various comments that followed that culminated in a Calvinist theologian revered by many RBs pontificated this magisterial declaration - "You err greatly regarding this point, believing that it is possible for the Elect to be already regenerate or justified chronologically prior to exercising faith."
Sing F Lau
EVEN SO, “A man is not justified because he believes in Christ; he believes in Christ because he has been justified by free grace.” Why? Quite simply, only a justified man, whose condemnation of death has been removed, regenerated and adopted, and indwelt by the Spirit of God is capable of believing. But the Calvinists insist that faith precedes their justification by God.
Jones
Excellent...
Govern
One of the most underrated theologians!!!
Decke
AMEN!
ojikon
stay saved, don't backslide and lose your salvation...
Wiebe
I believe LB's point was salvation is not based on belief, but belief is based on salvation.
Govern
Yea....due to a lack of teaching on the salvific order, many could misunderstand this quote, and run directly towards gnosticism or a form of hyper-calvinism. The countless hours I have spent trying to help reform my friends has been a complete joy, yet a drain. It is truly amazing though, when it clicks with someone, and they are like whoa, soo you mean its ALL grace.
Lucia
A believer believes because he is regenerated.
Johnson
We are justified by faith, we cannot separate salvation from belief...they are one packet. No one is saved without belief.
Sing F Lau
“A man is not justified because he believes in Christ; he believes in Christ because he has been justified by free grace.”
A believer believes because he is regenerated - indeed. And what is the basis be regenerated? Only a man justified by the free grace of God has the divine warrant to be justified by the Spirit of God.
Sin brings condemnation.
Imputed righteousness brings justification.
No justification by God's free grace, no regeneration.
No believing, no justification by faith.
Sing F Lau
The SALVATION that enables a man to believe, and the SALVATION that is obtained by our believing are TWO distinct and totally different salvation.
The former is eternal in nature, and the latter is temporal in nature, pertaining to the well being of God's children here on earth.
The former is secured by Christ alone, and freely bestowed upon spiritually dead sinners, fitting them for eternal glory.
The latter must be worked out by those children of God (saved by God already) with fear and trembling.
If you cannot rightly divide these two distinct salvations, you will remain confused!
Sing F Lau
Only a man justified by the free grace of God has the divine warrant to be REGENERATED by the Spirit of God.
"The reason why any are justified IS NOT because they have faith; but the reason why they have faith IS because they are justified."... PBA
Sing F Lau
"Calvinists are confused, as well as Obtuse on this Crucial Point"
Tay
2 distinct salvation? Are you referring to regeneration and sanctification?
Thiessen
John 20:31.".but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name." It may be a good idea to go to the concordance and look up all the many verses on believing, believe, believed, believer's, etc. and see what they say, and search the Scriptures daily and see if these things are so.
Murray
Boettner's quote in context.... "The Scriptures and Christian experience teach us that the very faith and repentance through which we are saved are themselves the gifts of God. “By grace have ye been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God,” Eph. 2:8. The Christians in Achaia had “believed through grace,” Acts 18:27. A man is not saved because he believes in Christ; he believes in Christ because he is saved. Even the beginning of faith, the disposition to seek salvation, is itself a work of grace and the gift of God. Paul often says that we are saved “through” faith (that is, as the instrumental cause), but never once does he say that we are saved “on account of” faith (that is, as the meritorious cause). And to the same effect we may say that the redeemed shall be rewarded in proportion to their good works, but not on account of them. And in accordance with this, Augustine says that “The elect of God are chosen by Him to be His children, in order that they might be made to believe, not because He foresaw that they would believe.”
Wiebe
thanks, Margot for the quote in context. Brenda, we can not believe unless it has been granted by God the Father. We do not redeem ourselves, God redeems us His Way. John says something similar when Jesus identified the Pharisees as not His... sheep therefore they do not believe. Jesus knows His sheep and they hear His voice and come to Him. The same can not be said for the goats. we do NOT believe in Jesus Christ to get saved, but we believe in Jesus Christ because we are saved.
John 6:64-66
64 But there are some among you who don't believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning those who would not believe and the one who would betray Him.) 65 He said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless it is granted to him by the Father." 66 From that moment many of His disciples turned back and no longer accompanied Him.
John 8:45-47
45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Who among you can convict Me of sin? If I tell the truth, why don't you believe Me? 47 The one who is from God listens to God's words. This is why you don't listen, because you are not from God."
John 10:25-29
25 "I did tell you and you don't believe," Jesus answered them. "The works that I do in My Father's name testify about Me. 26 But you don't believe because you are not My sheep. 27 My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and they follow Me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish—ever! No one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all. No one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
Brown
@Margot, thanks for the Acts 18:27 reference. This is good.
Sing F Lau
Joel Tay@ 2 distinct salvation? Are you referring to regeneration and sanctification?
=========
Yes, TWO distinct salvation, distinct in nature.
The ETERNAL salvation (eternal in nature, not in time, as from eternity) that is worked out wholly and solely for all the elect by Christ alone.
The TEMPORAL salvation (temporal in nature, that which applies to our life here and now on this earth) that the children of God (i.e. already bestowed with eternal salvation) must work out for themselves with fear and trembling in obedience to the will of God.
The two salvation are DISTINCT in nature, one is wholly MONERGISTIC and the other is synergistic; the former is the cause, the latter is the effect and manifestations.
It is failure to distinguish the two that has caused so much confusion in the mind of the Calvinists and Arminians alike.
A biblical Distinction is the essence of sound theology.
Take a look at this article: http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2010/08/calvinists-are-confused-as-well-as.html.
Thiessen
Rms. 10:9that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus Christ and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.1 Thess. 4:14 For IF we believe...
Wiebe
@ Brenda. can every person potentially make this confession above or only Christians? on the original post, Loraine Boettner stated “A man is not saved because he believes in Christ; he believes in Christ because he is saved.” and you agreed it was his point that salvation is not based on belief, but belief is based on salvation. [belief is the manifestation/evidence of the salvation also bestowed by free grace.]
Colossians 2:13-14
13 And WHEN you were dead in TRESPASSES and in the UNCIRCUMCISION of your flesh, He MADE you alive with Him and FORGAVE us ALL our trespasses.
14 He erased the certificate of debt, with its obligations, that was against us and opposed to us, and has taken it out of the way by nailing it to the cross. compare with Ephesians 2:1-5
Sing F Lau
"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."
It is them that ARE SAVED that will believe.
Is anything simpler than that?
This simple declaration of Apostle Paul exposes the horrible lies of gospel regeneration once for all.
The gospel is brought to them that are saved... and they perceive the gospel as declaring the power of God in saving them, freely and sovereignly.
Sing F Lau
Brenda, there are children of God who won't confess Jesus Christ as Lord, like some of the Jewish believers... Apostle Paul had to deal with such people in his times. The children of God among the Jews were so stuck in their old covenant ways.
You need to distinguish the salvation that is bestowed to you freely by God's grace, and the salvation that comes by your acts as a child of God. If you can do this, lots of confusion and misinterpretation would be avoided.
Sing F Lau
Trevor Christian Johnson@ We are justified by faith, we cannot separate salvation from belief...they are one packet. No one is saved without belief.
======
Then there would be NO salvation whatsoever for any who is unable to exercise faith in Jesus Christ?
If yes, then you have EXCLUDED many of God's elect from eternal salvation, because there are many of God's elect who are incapable of being called out by the gospel ministry!
There is a salvation that comes by believing. BUT this salvation is totally different from the salvation which ENABLES a man to believe.
The salvation that enables believing, and the salvation that comes by believing are PLAINLY and OBVIOUSLY two distinct and different salvation.
A biblical distinction is the essence of sound theology.
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Otherwise, there should be a great SHAME!
Thiessen
If you don't confess Jesus as Lord, you are not a child of God. 1Cor.12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. Rms. 8:9, But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
[sing: one not confessing Christ as Lord yet is NOT THE SAME as one calling Jesus accursed! Unless a man is ALREADY a child of God, he will not be able to confess Jesus as Lord!]
Thiessen
Where in the Bible do you find 2 different salvations? Scripture? And where do you find that it says that faith and choosing are works? nowhere. And if it is God's faith that saves us, who does He have faith in, us? I don't think so. He gives us faith.
[sing: before you could rightly declare 'nowhere' with such confidence, you ought to demonstrate that every it speaks of ONE salvation. Otherwise, it is just a foolish boast!]
Sing F Lau
Brenda, the Bible speaks of a salvation that is worked out by Jesus Christ, of which He himself declared, 'It is finished.' That finished salvation is freely applied to an elect when he was still dead in trespasses and sins.
The Bible also commands God's children to work out their salvation with fear and trembling in response to the grace of God working in them.
Do you know where these separate and distinct salvations are spoken of in the Scriptures?
If you have a husband, the Scriptures say, ask your husband your questions at home! That is God's appointed way for a woman to learn, so that her husband may get to learn the truth too by searching for the truth for his wife.
Trevo
Sing F Lau: There are no saved people out there that lack faith.
There is no chronological gap between regeneration and the new birth, only a logical priority of regeneration causing faith and not vice versa.
Sing F Lau
Trevor, how can there be chronological gap between regeneration and the new birth when BOTH refer to the same event??? I think you are quite woolly.
There are saved people out there, i.e. saved by God... they are God's children, and such need to be brought to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. The gospel ministry was ordained for them!
Cornelius was a SAVED man (saved by God) LONG before he was brought to faith by the gospel preaching of Apostle Peter.
Please speak what the Bible teaches, and not your pet opinions.
Thanks!
Trevo
I am, indeed, quite woolly. I have a hairy beard.
Many calvinists err in mistaking a logical order for a chronological order.
Regeneration precedes faith logically, but there is no chronological gap in time. i.e., there are no regenerate-yet-lacking-faith people out there walking around, i.e., there are not people out there who have been born again and yet do not possess saving faith because faith is the instrument of union with Christ such that we are justified by faith... No one who lacks faith has any right to claim the new birth as their own.
Again, we are to think of faith/repentance and the new birth as happening all together as a "packet" and not try to separate these things into a chronological procession of events. Again, God is the one who moves the wheel, and God moves all the spokes of that wheel simultaneously.
Sing, can you understand this definition? It is nuanced. I can try to explain in even simpler English if you need me to.
Sing F Lau
Hi Trevor, please tell me when was Abraham regenerated, and when was he justified by faith?
And when do you think Cornelius was regenerated? And when was he justified by his faith?
Now, common sense tells us that regeneration precedes faith ...BOTH LOGICALLY and CHRONOLOGICALLY.
Here is common sense. EVEN if a man is regenerated just prior to hearing the gospel, it STILL takes time for him to hear and understand and believe the gospel.
Abraham was regenerated by God before he left the Ur of the Chaldean. When was he justified by his faith? Do you know the years between his regeneration and his justification by faith (conversion)?
Cornelius was already regenerated LONG before Peter brought the gospel to him that enabled him to believe! Do you know the length of time between his regeneration and his conversion through faith?
Perhaps you clear your mind a bit first before trying to explain the matter further. Thanks for your offer, nevertheless.
Trevo
Here is the Westminster Confession of Faith,
Chapter XIV Of Saving Faith
I. The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls,[1] is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts,[2] and is ordinaril...y wrought by the ministry of the Word,[3] by which also, and by the administration of the sacraments, and prayer, it is increased and strengthened.[4]
II. By this faith, a Christian believes to be true whatsoever is revealed in the Word, for the authority of God Himself speaking therein;[5] and acts differently upon that which each particular passage thereof contains; yielding obedience to the commands,[6] trembling at the threatenings,[7] and embracing the promises of God for this life, and that which is to come.[8] But the principal acts of saving faith are accepting, receiving, and resting upon Christ alone for justification, sanctification, and eternal life, by virtue of the covenant of grace.[9]
III. This faith is different in degrees, weak or strong;[10] may often and many ways assailed, and weakened, but gets the victory:[11] growing up in many to the attainment of a full assurance, through Christ,[12] who is both the author and finisher of our faith.[13]
Notice that true Christianity does not separate regeneration or salvation from the instrumentality of the Word of God and through faith.
'Ye are clean through the word I have spoken to you, John 15:3
Of his own will begot he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of first-fruits of his creatures.—James 1:18.
"...we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction." (1 Thess 1:4, 5)
About Cornelius: Acts 11:14, is critical: "Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved". It appears that Cornelius was saved after his encounter with Peter; even though he did many good things beforehand, he was not regenerate at that point.
Final note: Sing, you need to refrain from personal attacks against me so that we can move the discussion forward without pettiness.
Sing F Lau
Trevor, tell us all the things that PRECEDE before faith is possible. Do you know why saving faith is in Chapter 14? What preceded chapter 14?
Effectual calling out of the state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation... which necessarily requires JUSTIFICATION, REGENERATION, ADOPTION, and the Spirit of adoption given to dwell in the heart of a child of God... working faith and ALL other saving graces.
THUS ONLY a man ALREADY SAVED by God, through His free and sovereign grace, is able to believe and in believing the gospel truth, he is saved from lies and errors, he embraces the truth!
"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."
I just wrote on my wall these words:
"1Cor 15:1 ¶ Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in... vain."
=====
The Corinthian believers were saved by their reception of the gospel brought to them by Apostle Paul.
What did their believing the gospel save them from?
Please remember that ONLY THEM THAT ARE SAVED by God's free grace are able to believe the gospel. "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."
The SAVED (by God's free grace) are to be saved by their believing THE gospel.
What did God save you from?
And what does your believing save you from?
Blessed are you if you know the answers to these questions!
A man who cannot differentiate between the salvation by God's free and sovereign grace, and the salvation that is conditioned his own actions, has NOT begun to rightly divide the word of truth!
Trevo
Sing, you are confusing election with salvation and maybe justification.
God, from all eternity ordained to justify His elect.
God did not, however, justify them from all eternity, their justification and eventual salvation happening in time.
Through effectual calling God calls His Elect ones and only His Sheep will hear his voice, but salvation does not occur until God unites His Elect to Himself through the agency of faith. Before that they are still "children of wrath, even as others" per Ephesians.
Sing F Lau
Trevor, please define for me what is effectual calling.
I have not mentioned anything yet about election... so please don't introduce it.
I really wonder who is confused!
...
Let's return to the initial issue.
You said this: "Regeneration precedes faith logically, but there is no chronological gap in time."
Is this true of Abraham? And is this true of Cornelius?
Of Cornelius, you said, "About Cornelius: Acts 11:14, is critical: "Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved."
So what? Were his regeneration and faith (believing the gospel message preached by Peter) simultaneous?
Please tell, '... whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved " - SHALL BE SAVED FROM WHAT?
Please keep to the points...
Trevo
Effectual Calling:
From the Westminster Confession, chapter 10:
I. All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, He is pleased, in His appointed time, effectually to call,[1] by His Word and Spirit,[2] out of that state of ...sin and death, in which they are by nature to grace and salvation, by Jesus Christ;[3] enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God,[4] taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them an heart of flesh;[5] renewing their wills, and, by His almighty power, determining them to that which is good,[6] and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ:[7] yet so, as they come most freely, being made willing by His grace.[8]
II. This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man,[9] who is altogether passive therein, until, being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit,[10] he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it.
III. Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ, through the Spirit,[12] who works when, and where, and how He pleases:[13] so also are all other elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.[14]
IV. Others, not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit,[16] yet they never truly come unto Christ, and therefore cannot be saved:[17] much less can men, not professing the Christian religion, be saved in any other way whatsoever, be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature, and the laws of that religion they do profess.[18] And to assert and maintain that they may, is very pernicious, and to be detested.[19]
About Abraham and Cornelius: They were God's elect and therefore predestined from all eternity for salvation. However, the same God who ordains the ends also ordains the means. God, through providence led them into knowledge of himself during their lives. At some point they were regenerated (born again) by the Spirit of God. This new birth does not happen apart from the Word of God, however, and God uses the instrumentality of the Word to bring His Elect to Himself.
Also of note is that faith is called a "grace whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls"in the Westminster. Therefore, faith and the new birth ought never to be separated chronologically, though we may rightly say that God's initiative is what saves and not man's (therefore regeneration possesses a logical priority over faith, even though there is no chronological gap of time and we do not see regenerate but faithless people existing).
Sing F Lau
Thanks. You quote well enough.
Now please give us some explanation.
"All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, He is pleased, in His appointed time, effectually to call,[1] by His Word and Spirit,[2] out of that state ...of ...sin and death, in which they are by nature to grace and salvation, by Jesus Christ."
Now please tell us what DIVINE ACTS are involved in the effectual calling of those predestinated OUT of his state of sin and death, in which he is by nature, to that of grace and salvation by Jesus Christ.
Please let us be focused.
What acts of God are necessary to bring an elect OUT of his state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation? If you don't understand the scope and intent of this specific inquiry, please let me know so that I may elaborate.
Concerning Abraham, please tell us whether he was a justified and regenerated man before Gen 15:1-6? Put it another way, was Abraham still a man under condemnation (un-justified) and UN-regenerated before the event recorded in Gen 15:1-6? This is a specific question. So, please deal with this specific question.
Concerning Cornelius, was Cornelius a justified and regenerated man before Peter preached the gospel to him? Put it another way, was Cornelius still a man under condemnation (un-justified) and UN-regenerated (i.e. still dead in trespasses and sin) before Peter was sent to bring the good news to him? This too is a specific question. So, please deal with this specific question.
Thank you. Please proceed to lead me to the truth as you see it.
Trevo
There is nothing wrong with quoting. The Westminster Confession and the 1689 are hedges against error with regard to soteriology.
I will reread Genesis 15. what do you think?
Regarding Cornelius I have already quoted Acts 14 which indicates ...that prior to Peter's trip and the reception of the Word, Cornelius was not saved.
What church in Singapore are you a part of? I can suggest a few solid churches that can help guide you in these matters.
Sing F Lau
Trevor @ "Regarding Cornelius I have already quoted Acts 14 which indicates ...that prior to Peter's trip and the reception of the Word, Cornelius was not saved."
I did not ask whether Cornelius was saved? Look at my question again please. "...Concerning Cornelius, was Cornelius a justified and regenerated man before Peter preached the gospel to him? Put it another way, was Cornelius still a man under condemnation (un-justified) and UN-regenerated (i.e. still dead in trespasses and sin) before Peter was sent to bring the good news to him? This too is a specific question. So, please deal with this specific question."
When you say 'Cornelius was not saved' I understand you to mean that Cornelius was still a man under condemnation (un-justified) and dead in trespasses and sins? If not, what do you mean by "Cornelius was not saved"?
Please tell us.
Trevo
What is your definition of saved?
Sing F Lau
Trevor@ "Also of note is that faith is called a "grace whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls"in the Westminster. "
Please tell us,
What did God save His elect from?
And what does believing save God's children from? (I supposed only God's children are able to believe)
Trevo
Where are you going with these questions rather than mere rhetoric?
Sing F Lau
Trevor, please tell us:
What did God save you from?
And what did your believing the gospel - the truth of what God has done through His Jesus Christ to save His people - save you from?
These are no rhetoric but means to rightly divide the word... of truth. If you can't distinguish the two, you have not even begin to rightly interpret the Scriptures on this subject.
"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."
ONLY them that ARE SAVED by God is able to believe the gospel! And believing the gospel will save them.
How did God save, and save from what?
How does believing the gospel save, and save from what?
You are doing a Doctorate in Mission, you should be able to answer ELEMENTARY questions like these... they are no mere rhetoric!
A biblical distinction is the essence of sound theology!
Trevo
Sing, you are a rude man and need to learn some manners first of all.
I have adequately engaged you.
We are saved from the power and penalty of sin and the kingdom of darkness. We were children of wrath even as others until God brought us to faith and repentance. Now, all who believe are justified and are being sanctified and prepared for heaven.
I hold to the soteriology of the 1689 Baptist Confession and the Westminster Confession on these issues. You would do well to read those documents:
http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/
There is no salvation apart from faith. God uses means such as the instrumentality of the Word of God and of salvation through faith. Do not fall into the Hardshell Baptist or hyper-calvinistic trap of separating God's ordained ends from God's ordained means to accomplishing those ends.
Now, if you respond respectfully I will continue to engage you. If you continue to treat me rudely, I will cut off conversation and assume that your fruits show what manner of man that you really are.
Elmer, sorry if all of this has side-tracked your quote.
Wiebe
someone had to be straight up with you, Sing and it looks like it was Trevor. Trevor, no apologies needed. my posts tend to take on a life of their own. As much as some of this stuff is based on rabbit trails, it is interesting to see what topics are presented that need to brought to forefront for all of our spiritual maturity.
Sing F Lau
Trevor@ I hold to the soteriology of the 1689 Baptist Confession and the Westminster Confession on these issues. You would do well to read those documents:
====
If this will help you to know where I am coming from, know that I have studied those documents for near two decades... and written much on them too... but that doesn't necessarily mean that what I say I right, granted.
One thing I am almost certain is that the modern Calvinists have departed FAR FROM those who framed those documents.
I have been trying to point these things out to you, but they don't seem to register with you.
Let m try it again,
This is what the old school baptists said this:
"The reason why any are justified IS NOT because they have faith; but the reason why they have faith IS because they are justified." (In the circular letter issued by Philadelphia Baptist Association on October 4th, 1785.)
The modern calvinistic baptists, including you, declares thus:
The reason why any are justified is because they have faith... i.e. their faith PRECEDES their justification by God.
Are they saying the same things, or are they saying VASTLY different things? If the latter, who is right and who is in GRAVE DAMNING ERROR?
So, stick to the point.
There is no need to get personal. I tend to think that westerners in Asian countries are OFTEN (not always!) very PATRONIZING to others even though they are often oblivious to their sin!
Sing F Lau
Trevor, so is the salvation with which God saved you, and the salvation which your believing in the gospel secures (the good news of what God has done to save you) the one and the same salvation, or are they quite distinct in their NATURE? ...Or are they just different aspect of the one same salvation, or something else?
The discussion would be more profitable if we would just stick to the issue being raised?
Sing F Lau
Trevor, you mentioned about the Hardshell Baptists. I heard about them, and I have a copy of their Confession of faith, which is an exact copy of the 1689 BCoF.
Now, this is the strange and bizarre observation. They, and their forefathers w...ere adherent of the 1689 continuously. There was a great division among the particular baptists in the USA... one group EVENTUALLY became Arminians, while the other remained rooted in the 1689, even until today. Some from the group that eventually became Arminians came to their sense and remembered the root of their forebear... and attempted to return to their 1689 root... and the Reformed Baptist group emerged in the 1960's. There were others baptists who hold to the doctrines of grace to various degree.
This is very sketchy... to show that two groups claim to hold to the 1689, but they believe quite different things.
And the statement from the PBA I quoted above is just an obvious example. What has gone wrong?
I have one suggestion. The Baptists who had back slidden into Arminianism and attempted to return to the faith of their fathers can be seen like this: they departed 100 miles from their fathers, but returned 50 miles, and they think they have come to where their father stood.
Please note; I am not Hardshell. And I am not a Calvinist.
Trevo
Sing:
Much wiser men than I have already pleaded with you concerning your errors.
About your statement concerning White, Anglos being patronizing in Asia:
...
Noel Espinosa is far from a white anglo and he write thusly about you, mirrorring my arguments now:
"...it is with sadness that I was to learn of your deviation from the faith. What compounds the matter is the way you have been defending your case through the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith. I am sorry to say, brother, that your employment of that Confession is totally wrong and unjustified."
The truth about faith and justification:
Faith is not the reason or ultimate grounds for the Elect’s justification. We are not saved because of our faith or on the grounds of their faith, as if we can produce a certain sufficient measure of this substance from within ourselves which God would then honor and allow us into heaven. This would be to make faith a meritorious act and our work of producing enough faith of sufficient quality to be a work of righteousness able to commend us before God. This would be yet another form of works-righteousness.
However, though we are not saved because of our faith, faith is the instrument through which God’s Elect are united to Christ. The expressions are thus—dia pisteos, ek pisteos, and pistei (dative).Dia pisteos can be translated as “by means of” or “through” faith.
Faith is the instrument which lays hold of Jesus. God, through free grace, enables a person to believe. It is a gift of grace, yet God does not believe for the man; the man must believe.
Ek pisteos (“from,” “out of” or “by faith”) describes faith as that which logically precedes a person’s justification. It “describes faith as the occasion of justification, though never as the efficient or ultimate cause of justification.
The dative use of the noun pistis is used in an instrumental sense (cf. Rom. 3:28). Faith is not an agent (i.e. an efficient cause), but it is an instrument (i.e. a means) of justification.
You err greatly regarding this point, believing that it is possible for the Elect to be already regenerated or justified chronologically prior to exercising faith.
Sing F Lau
Trevor declares @"You err greatly regarding this point, believing that it is possible for the Elect to be already regenerated or justified chronologically prior to exercising faith."
======
I have accepted your 'friend request.'
I will continue... this discussion on my wall.
Welcome. Come and teach us...
Continue here https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/151373898209910
Trevo
Sing F Lau: There are no saved people out there that lack faith.
There is no chronological gap between regeneration and the new birth, only a logical priority of regeneration causing faith and not vice versa.
Sing F Lau
Trevor, how can there be chronological gap between regeneration and the new birth when BOTH refer to the same event??? I think you are quite woolly.
There are saved people out there, i.e. saved by God... they are God's children, and such need to be brought to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. The gospel ministry was ordained for them!
Cornelius was a SAVED man (saved by God) LONG before he was brought to faith by the gospel preaching of Apostle Peter.
Please speak what the Bible teaches, and not your pet opinions.
Thanks!
Trevo
I am, indeed, quite woolly. I have a hairy beard.
Many calvinists err in mistaking a logical order for a chronological order.
Regeneration precedes faith logically, but there is no chronological gap in time. i.e., there are no regenerate-yet-lacking-faith people out there walking around, i.e., there are not people out there who have been born again and yet do not possess saving faith because faith is the instrument of union with Christ such that we are justified by faith... No one who lacks faith has any right to claim the new birth as their own.
Again, we are to think of faith/repentance and the new birth as happening all together as a "packet" and not try to separate these things into a chronological procession of events. Again, God is the one who moves the wheel, and God moves all the spokes of that wheel simultaneously.
Sing, can you understand this definition? It is nuanced. I can try to explain in even simpler English if you need me to.
Sing F Lau
Hi Trevor, please tell me when was Abraham regenerated, and when was he justified by faith?
And when do you think Cornelius was regenerated? And when was he justified by his faith?
Now, common sense tells us that regeneration precedes faith ...BOTH LOGICALLY and CHRONOLOGICALLY.
Here is common sense. EVEN if a man is regenerated just prior to hearing the gospel, it STILL takes time for him to hear and understand and believe the gospel.
Abraham was regenerated by God before he left the Ur of the Chaldean. When was he justified by his faith? Do you know the years between his regeneration and his justification by faith (conversion)?
Cornelius was already regenerated LONG before Peter brought the gospel to him that enabled him to believe! Do you know the length of time between his regeneration and his conversion through faith?
Perhaps you clear your mind a bit first before trying to explain the matter further.
Trevo
Here is the Westminster Confession of Faith,
Chapter XIV Of Saving Faith
I. The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls,[1] is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts,[2] and is ordinaril...y wrought by the ministry of the Word,[3] by which also, and by the administration of the sacraments, and prayer, it is increased and strengthened.[4]
II. By this faith, a Christian believes to be true whatsoever is revealed in the Word, for the authority of God Himself speaking therein;[5] and acts differently upon that which each particular passage thereof contains; yielding obedience to the commands,[6] trembling at the threatenings,[7] and embracing the promises of God for this life, and that which is to come.[8] But the principal acts of saving faith are accepting, receiving, and resting upon Christ alone for justification, sanctification, and eternal life, by virtue of the covenant of grace.[9]
III. This faith is different in degrees, weak or strong;[10] may often and many ways assailed, and weakened, but gets the victory:[11] growing up in many to the attainment of a full assurance, through Christ,[12] who is both the author and finisher of our faith.[13]
Notice that true Christianity does not separate regeneration or salvation from the instrumentality of the Word of God and through faith.
'Ye are clean through the word I have spoken to you, John 15:3
Of his own will begot he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of first-fruits of his creatures.—James 1:18.
"...we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction." (1 Thess 1:4, 5)
About Cornelius: Acts 11:14, is critical: "Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved". It appears that Cornelius was saved after his encounter with Peter; even though he did many good things beforehand, he was not regenerate at that point.
Final note: Sing, you need to refrain from personal attacks against me so that we can move the discussion forward without pettiness.
Sing F Lau
Trevor, tell us all the things that PRECEDE before faith is possible. Do you know why saving faith is in Chapter 14? What preceded chapter 14?
Effectual calling out of the state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation... which necessarily requires JUSTIFICATION, REGENERATION, ADOPTION, and the Spirit of adoption given to dwell in the heart of a child of God... working faith and ALL other saving graces.
THUS ONLY a man ALREADY SAVED by God, through His free and sovereign grace, is able to believe and in believing the gospel truth, he is saved from lies and errors, he embraces the truth!
"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."
I just wrote on my wall these words:
"1Cor 15:1 ¶ Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in... vain."
=====
The Corinthian believers were saved by their reception of the gospel brought to them by Apostle Paul.
What did their believing the gospel save them from?
Please remember that ONLY THEM THAT ARE SAVED by God's free grace are able to believe the gospel. "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."
The SAVED (by God's free grace) are to be saved by their believing THE gospel.
What did God save you from?
And what does your believing save you from?
Blessed are you if you know the answers to these questions!
A man who cannot differentiate between the salvation by God's free and sovereign grace, and the salvation that is conditioned his own actions, has NOT begun to rightly divide the word of truth!
Trevo
Sing, you are confusing election with salvation and maybe justification.
God, from all eternity ordained to justify His elect.
God did not, however, justify them from all eternity, their justification and eventual salvation happening in time.
Through effectual calling God calls His Elect ones and only His Sheep will hear his voice, but salvation does not occur until God unites His Elect to Himself through the agency of faith. Before that they are still "children of wrath, even as others" per Ephesians.
Sing F Lau
Trevor, please define for me what is effectual calling.
I have not mentioned anything yet about election... so please don't introduce it.
I really wonder who is confused!
...
Let's return to the initial issue.
You said this: "Regeneration precedes faith logically, but there is no chronological gap in time."
Is this true of Abraham? And is this true of Cornelius?
Of Cornelius, you said, "About Cornelius: Acts 11:14, is critical: "Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved."
So what? Were his regeneration and faith (believing the gospel message preached by Peter) simultaneous?
Please tell, '... whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved " - SHALL BE SAVED FROM WHAT?
Please keep to the points...
Trevo
Effectual Calling:
From the Westminster Confession, chapter 10:
I. All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, He is pleased, in His appointed time, effectually to call,[1] by His Word and Spirit,[2] out of that state of ...sin and death, in which they are by nature to grace and salvation, by Jesus Christ;[3] enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God,[4] taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them an heart of flesh;[5] renewing their wills, and, by His almighty power, determining them to that which is good,[6] and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ:[7] yet so, as they come most freely, being made willing by His grace.[8]
II. This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man,[9] who is altogether passive therein, until, being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit,[10] he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it.
III. Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ, through the Spirit,[12] who works when, and where, and how He pleases:[13] so also are all other elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.[14]
IV. Others, not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit,[16] yet they never truly come unto Christ, and therefore cannot be saved:[17] much less can men, not professing the Christian religion, be saved in any other way whatsoever, be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature, and the laws of that religion they do profess.[18] And to assert and maintain that they may, is very pernicious, and to be detested.[19]
About Abraham and Cornelius: They were God's elect and therefore predestined from all eternity for salvation. However, the same God who ordains the ends also ordains the means. God, through providence led them into knowledge of himself during their lives. At some point they were regenerated (born again) by the Spirit of God. This new birth does not happen apart from the Word of God, however, and God uses the instrumentality of the Word to bring His Elect to Himself.
Also of note is that faith is called a "grace whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls"in the Westminster. Therefore, faith and the new birth ought never to be separated chronologically, though we may rightly say that God's initiative is what saves and not man's (therefore regeneration possesses a logical priority over faith, even though there is no chronological gap of time and we do not see regenerate but faithless people existing).
Sing F Lau
Thanks. You quote well enough.
Now please give us some explanation.
"All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, He is pleased, in His appointed time, effectually to call,[1] by His Word and Spirit,[2] out of that state ...of ...sin and death, in which they are by nature to grace and salvation, by Jesus Christ."
Now please tell us what DIVINE ACTS are involved in the effectual calling of those predestinated OUT of his state of sin and death, in which he is by nature, to that of grace and salvation by Jesus Christ.
Please let us be focused.
What acts of God are necessary to bring an elect OUT of his state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation? If you don't understand the scope and intent of this specific inquiry, please let me know so that I may elaborate.
Concerning Abraham, please tell us whether he was a justified and regenerated man before Gen 15:1-6? Put it another way, was Abraham still a man under condemnation (un-justified) and UN-regenerated before the event recorded in Gen 15:1-6? This is a specific question. So, please deal with this specific question.
Concerning Cornelius, was Cornelius a justified and regenerated man before Peter preached the gospel to him? Put it another way, was Cornelius still a man under condemnation (un-justified) and UN-regenerated (i.e. still dead in trespasses and sin) before Peter was sent to bring the good news to him? This too is a specific question. So, please deal with this specific question.
Thank you. Please proceed to lead me to the truth as you see it.
Trevo
There is nothing wrong with quoting. The Westminster Confession and the 1689 are hedges against error with regard to soteriology.
I will reread Genesis 15. what do you think?
Regarding Cornelius I have already quoted Acts 14 which indicates ...that prior to Peter's trip and the reception of the Word, Cornelius was not saved.
What church in Singapore are you a part of? I can suggest a few solid churches that can help guide you in these matters.
Sing F Lau
Trevor @ "Regarding Cornelius I have already quoted Acts 14 which indicates ...that prior to Peter's trip and the reception of the Word, Cornelius was not saved."
I did not ask whether Cornelius was saved? Look at my question again please. "...Concerning Cornelius, was Cornelius a justified and regenerated man before Peter preached the gospel to him? Put it another way, was Cornelius still a man under condemnation (un-justified) and UN-regenerated (i.e. still dead in trespasses and sin) before Peter was sent to bring the good news to him? This too is a specific question. So, please deal with this specific question."
When you say 'Cornelius was not saved' I understand you to mean that Cornelius was still a man under condemnation (un-justified) and dead in trespasses and sins? If not, what do you mean by "Cornelius was not saved"?
Please tell us.
Trevo
What is your definition of saved?
Sing F Lau
Trevor@ "Also of note is that faith is called a "grace whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls"in the Westminster. "
Please tell us,
What did God save His elect from?
And what does believing save God's children from? (I supposed only God's children are able to believe)
Trevo
Where are you going with these questions rather than mere rhetoric?
Sing F Lau
Trevor, please tell us:
What did God save you from?
And what did your believing the gospel - the truth of what God has done through His Jesus Christ to save His people - save you from?
These are no rhetoric but means to rightly divide the word... of truth. If you can't distinguish the two, you have not even begin to rightly interpret the Scriptures on this subject.
"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."
ONLY them that ARE SAVED by God is able to believe the gospel! And believing the gospel will save them.
How did God save, and save from what?
How does believing the gospel save, and save from what?
You are doing a Doctorate in Mission, you should be able to answer ELEMENTARY questions like these... they are no mere rhetoric!
A biblical distinction is the essence of sound theology!
Trevo
Sing, you are a rude man and need to learn some manners first of all.
I have adequately engaged you.
We are saved from the power and penalty of sin and the kingdom of darkness. We were children of wrath even as others until God brought us to faith and repentance. Now, all who believe are justified and are being sanctified and prepared for heaven.
I hold to the soteriology of the 1689 Baptist Confession and the Westminster Confession on these issues. You would do well to read those documents:
http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/
There is no salvation apart from faith. God uses means such as the instrumentality of the Word of God and of salvation through faith. Do not fall into the Hardshell Baptist or hyper-calvinistic trap of separating God's ordained ends from God's ordained means to accomplishing those ends.
Now, if you respond respectfully I will continue to engage you. If you continue to treat me rudely, I will cut off conversation and assume that your fruits show what manner of man that you really are.
Elmer, sorry if all of this has side-tracked your quote.
Wiebe
someone had to be straight up with you, Sing and it looks like it was Trevor. Trevor, no apologies needed. my posts tend to take on a life of their own. As much as some of this stuff is based on rabbit trails, it is interesting to see what topics are presented that need to brought to forefront for all of our spiritual maturity.
Sing F Lau
Trevor@ I hold to the soteriology of the 1689 Baptist Confession and the Westminster Confession on these issues. You would do well to read those documents:
====
If this will help you to know where I am coming from, know that I have studied those documents for near two decades... and written much on them too... but that doesn't necessarily mean that what I say I right, granted.
One thing I am almost certain is that the modern Calvinists have departed FAR FROM those who framed those documents.
I have been trying to point these things out to you, but they don't seem to register with you.
Let m try it again,
This is what the old school baptists said this:
"The reason why any are justified IS NOT because they have faith; but the reason why they have faith IS because they are justified." (In the circular letter issued by Philadelphia Baptist Association on October 4th, 1785.)
The modern calvinistic baptists, including you, declares thus:
The reason why any are justified is because they have faith... i.e. their faith PRECEDES their justification by God.
Are they saying the same things, or are they saying VASTLY different things? If the latter, who is right and who is in GRAVE DAMNING ERROR?
So, stick to the point.
There is no need to get personal. I tend to think that westerners in Asian countries are OFTEN (not always!) very PATRONIZING to others even though they are often oblivious to their sin!
Sing F Lau
Trevor, so is the salvation with which God saved you, and the salvation which your believing in the gospel secures (the good news of what God has done to save you) the one and the same salvation, or are they quite distinct in their NATURE? ...Or are they just different aspect of the one same salvation, or something else?
The discussion would be more profitable if we would just stick to the issue being raised?
Sing F Lau
Trevor, you mentioned about the Hardshell Baptists. I heard about them, and I have a copy of their Confession of faith, which is an exact copy of the 1689 BCoF.
Now, this is the strange and bizarre observation. They, and their forefathers w...ere adherent of the 1689 continuously. There was a great division among the particular baptists in the USA... one group EVENTUALLY became Arminians, while the other remained rooted in the 1689, even until today. Some from the group that eventually became Arminians came to their sense and remembered the root of their forebear... and attempted to return to their 1689 root... and the Reformed Baptist group emerged in the 1960's. There were others baptists who hold to the doctrines of grace to various degree.
This is very sketchy... to show that two groups claim to hold to the 1689, but they believe quite different things.
And the statement from the PBA I quoted above is just an obvious example. What has gone wrong?
I have one suggestion. The Baptists who had back slidden into Arminianism and attempted to return to the faith of their fathers can be seen like this: they departed 100 miles from their fathers, but returned 50 miles, and they think they have come to where their father stood.
Please note; I am not Hardshell. And I am not a Calvinist.
Trevo
Sing:
Much wiser men than I have already pleaded with you concerning your errors.
About your statement concerning White, Anglos being patronizing in Asia:
...
Noel Espinosa is far from a white anglo and he write thusly about you, mirrorring my arguments now:
"...it is with sadness that I was to learn of your deviation from the faith. What compounds the matter is the way you have been defending your case through the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith. I am sorry to say, brother, that your employment of that Confession is totally wrong and unjustified."
The truth about faith and justification:
Faith is not the reason or ultimate grounds for the Elect’s justification. We are not saved because of our faith or on the grounds of their faith, as if we can produce a certain sufficient measure of this substance from within ourselves which God would then honor and allow us into heaven. This would be to make faith a meritorious act and our work of producing enough faith of sufficient quality to be a work of righteousness able to commend us before God. This would be yet another form of works-righteousness.
However, though we are not saved because of our faith, faith is the instrument through which God’s Elect are united to Christ. The expressions are thus—dia pisteos, ek pisteos, and pistei (dative).Dia pisteos can be translated as “by means of” or “through” faith.
Faith is the instrument which lays hold of Jesus. God, through free grace, enables a person to believe. It is a gift of grace, yet God does not believe for the man; the man must believe.
Ek pisteos (“from,” “out of” or “by faith”) describes faith as that which logically precedes a person’s justification. It “describes faith as the occasion of justification, though never as the efficient or ultimate cause of justification.
The dative use of the noun pistis is used in an instrumental sense (cf. Rom. 3:28). Faith is not an agent (i.e. an efficient cause), but it is an instrument (i.e. a means) of justification.
You err greatly regarding this point, believing that it is possible for the Elect to be already regenerated or justified chronologically prior to exercising faith.
Sing F Lau
Trevor declares @"You err greatly regarding this point, believing that it is possible for the Elect to be already regenerated or justified chronologically prior to exercising faith."
======
I have accepted your 'friend request.'
I will continue... this discussion on my wall.
Welcome. Come and teach us...
Continue here https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/151373898209910
