Gospel regeneration vs. Gospel Conversion

Food is for the nourishment of the living.

(Of course many superstitious Chinese offer food to the dead!)

The gospel, the glad tidings of salvation is for the living,

the children of God, the elect whom God has regenerated.

Awe
Hi Sing,
Please take a moment and watch this short video. I look forward to your comments.
I am having trouble understanding your view of evangelism.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JPklJzIn7k
Now I See It Well - Steve Saint and Mincaye. Randy Alcorn's interview with Steve Saint, son of Nate Saint, one of the five missionaries murdered by the Auca Indians in Ecuador in 1956, and with Mincaye, one of the Auca tribesmen who killed the missionaries.

Sing F Lau
You said you have trouble understanding my view of evangelism! Hmmm.

What is your understanding of evangelism? Please tell me. I am acquainted with the popular view! I was brought up in those fables.

I take it that by evangelism, you mean making disciples through the gospel ministry - as in Christ's command to the apostles.

I take it that disciples can only be made out of those whom God Himself has effectually called to grace and salvation. Many preachers attempt to make disciples out of sinners still dead in sins, believing that God uses them to help Him make His children.

While it is absolutely true that the preacher addresses all his hearers, it is nevertheless true that ONLY those whom God ARE saved can hear and believe the gospel as the good news of what God has done to save them. God's children are found in the multitudes, therefore the gospel message is addressed to the multitudes, in which those that ARE SAVED are found.

So many don't take God's word seriously.
"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."

The gospel is intended, and has relevance ONLY to those that ARE SAVED - ALREADY in the state of salvation before the gospel preaching comes to them. The gospel is the good news that instructs and informs them of their salvation by God's free and sovereign grace.

Is anything I have written above hard to understand? It may be hard to believe or accept!

So much that go around in the name of Christ is just man-centred religion... like Adam attempting to cover his nakedness with fig leaves... that's the nature of fallen man.

Sing F Lau
I have watched the short video.
Which part or what subject raised in the video that you wish me to comment on? He speaks much about walking in His trail.

And this again bring us back to the mother of all question: who will walk this trail... a man in his state of sin and death, or a man whom God himself has called out of the state of sin and death to grace and salvation, all by His free and sovereign grace?

A child of God can be persuaded to walk Christ's trail; no man, not even the most persuasive and eloquent preacher, can persuade a man still dead in trespasses and sin to walk in Christ's way! That does not deny that many preachers sincerely believe they can!

The simple maxim of the gospel truth is this: Life precedes the activities of that life. Eternal life by God's free grace precedes all the activities of that life... like the spiritual activity of hearing and believing the gospel, reverence for God, work righteousness, etc.

He also speaks of names written in God's book of Life. Many preachers preach and teach that when a man believe, his name is written in the book of life. But the Scriptures declares that names have been written in the Lamb's Book of life before the foundation of the world. NO human activities, no amount of missionary activities, no amount of parenting, etc, etc, can add one extra name in that Book of Life... no, NOT ONE.

Human activities CONTRIBUTE NOTHING toward a man's BEING as God's children. This is an SON-SHIP issue. This is what is mean by salvation by grace ALONE... and ALONE means ALONE... otherwise words have lost their specific meaning, and communication becomes futile.

Human activities CONTRIBUTE GREATLY toward a man's WELL-BEING as God's children. This is a DISCIPLE-SHIP issue. This is where the gospel ministry is relevance!

A biblical distinction is the essence of sound theology.

Awe
Thanks for the reply. I agree that salvation is by grace. You said that "Human activities CONTRIBUTE NOTHING toward a man's BEING as God's children." So all of those who were savages before they heard the Gospel preached as mentioned in the video, would have gone to heaven or hell when they died?

Sing F Lau
If I understand you correctly, the answer is 'yes'. [If salvation is indeed by grace, then human activities contribute nothing toward a man's BEING as a child of God.] Those who are elect, whose names were written in the Book of Life would have gone to paradise [heaven is entered only after the glorious resurrection], the rest would have gone to hell when they die, and then to the lake of fire on the great day of judgment. Their going to heaven or the lake of fire is remotely dependent in any way upon the gospel ministry. [It depends ENTIRELY upon the free and sovereign grace of God ALONE - otherwise 'salvation by grace alone' is just a meaningless religious shibboleth!]

Those that are God's elect among those savages, God would have effectually called them out of their state of sin and death into the state of grace and salvation in Jesus Christ, perfectly fitting them for eternal glory - all on His own, without the gospel ministry whatsoever. Their BEING as God's children was entirely by the free and sovereign activities of God alone.

Such children of God who did not enjoy the gospel ministry, their WELL-BEING as God's children would have suffered a great deal, without the benefit of the gospel ministry to inform and instruct them of the truth of their glorious salvation by the free and sovereign grace of God, and the ministry of the word for their well-being as God's children while they journey through this world.

The common and popular view is this: God requires the gospel ministry to produce His children, that God sovereignly chooses to subject His divine work of effectual call to the gospel ministry! Such preachers make themselves very important - they are co-workers with God in the eternal salvation of themselves and others! This is classic 'SYNERGISM', and a classic denial of 'monergism' - eternal salvation by God's free grace alone.

Consider this passage:
"29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

Is there any human activity here for the glorification for any one of God's elect - whether they be among the savages of the Amazon or the enlighten Americans raised in the Bible Belt? Which part involves man's activity?

Please think carefully. I don't want to hear shibboleths or platitudes. Reasoned and thought through opinion are welcome.

Do all the activities of the gynaecologist, the nurses and midwives, and hosts of others play any role in you fathering your children into BEING? I know they contribute greatly towards the well-being of your children!

A biblical distinction is the essence of sound theology.

Awe
Consider this verse: And I said, Who are you, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom you persecute. 16 But rise, and stand on your feet: for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of these things which you have seen, and of those things in the which I will appear to you; 17 Delivering you from the people, and from the Gentiles, to whom now I send you, 18 TO OPEN THEIR EYES, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. Acts 26

Paul was a preacher and in the chapter containing this passage, he preached the Gospel to all who heard and even told them he would that they all be like him save his chains. Now if the same man who said the above and states that Jesus told him that He would use him (Paul) to turn them (Gentiles) from darkness to light also stated the passage you reference... you tell me, is there any human activity in it? One can certainly reason and it is obvious that many have for centuries, that God indeed uses the foolishness of preaching to open the eyes of those lost in sin and without forgiveness to turn and believe. Through Paul's activities, did God open men's eyes and turn men from darkness to light?

You said: "Those that are God's elect among those savages, God would have effectually called them out of their state of sin and death into the state of grace and salvation, perfectly fitting them for eternal glory - all on His own, without the gospel ministry whatsoever." (Obviously, I think that is insane and highly unscriptural!) What problem do you have in admitting that the method God used to "call them out" was via the missionary? Isn't this what God told Paul he was to do? Think carefully.

Conception - the begetting of a child

Sing F Lau
Awe, I have no problem with the passage you quoted. They perfectly explain what I have been saying. I told you no shibboleth or platitudes.

You fail to distinguish the plain distinction between that which deal with the BEING of God's children, and that which deals with the WELL-BEING of God's children, the distinction between the SON-SHIP issue, and the DISCIPLE-SHIP issue. If you cannot make this biblical distinction, further discussion on this subject will avail nothing.

The difference lies here: you and I attribute difference MEANINGS to the functions to the gospel ministry: you attribute the BEING of SON-SHIP to the gospel ministry, I attribute the WELL-BEING of DISCIPLE-SHIP to the gospel ministry.

These functions of the gospel ministry: 'to open their eyes' is NOT the same as giving them life. 'To turn them from darkness to light is not the same as giving them life. 'To turn them from the power of Satan' is not the same as giving them eternal life. That they may receive the forgiveness of sin is not the same as that they may be regenerated.

All of the above have to do with the WELL-BEING of God's children. The gospel ministry is to open their eyes to see the truth of their salvation that has been bestowed by God's free grace; to turn them from darkness is to deliver them from their darkness of ignorance; to turn them from the power of Satan is to turn them from the delusion and lies of Satan; that they may receive the forgiveness of their sin is TO EXPERIENCE personally that forgiveness through faith in Christ. All these are accomplished through the gospel ministry; it promotes the well-being of God's children that He Himself alone has fathered through His Spirit based on the finished work of Jesus Christ.

BUT you would attribute these activities to the bringing into BEING of God's children by the gospel ministry.

God uses the gospel ministry NOT to "call them out" of their state of sin and death into the state of grace and salvation.

God has ordained, AND uses the gospel ministry to call His children (those already effectually called by Himself to grace and salvation by His own free and sovereign grace) out of their ignorance and lies, instruct them the gospel truths of their eternal salvation by God's free grace, turn them from lies and delusion of Satan, etc.

You asked, "What problem do you have in admitting that the method God used to "call them out" was via the missionary?"

That's a mighty good question. Before I raise the insurmountable problems of your 'gospel regeneration' view, may I suggest that you first STATE your big problem with the biblical view that I have set forth for your consideration. Maybe this way, it is less difficult for you to learn some gospel truth!

Tell me, which and what part does a man/preacher play in his predestination-to-glorification, i.e. in his ETERNAL salvation, i.e. in his BEING as a child of God?

(Please note, I am NOT inquiring which and what part does a man/preacher play in his temporal salvation, in his WELL-BEING as a child of God.)

Have a good day!

The nurturing of a child that has been begotten

Awe
Speaking of shibboleths and platitudes... that's all I see in your arguments.

The main point is that only God gives life. I'm happy to stand in the vast company of faithful, God-fearing men who gave their lives to preach the Gospel and believed in what you call Gospel Regeneration. When or how a person is regenerated is only by the Spirit. We are commanded to preach and preach I will! If there is no concern over men's souls, the preacher ought to keep silent for I fear such a man would not be speaking by the Spirit.

Sing F Lau
I believe in gospel CONVERSION.
You believe in gospel REGENERATION.

You said, "When or how a person is regenerated is only by the Spirit." So does the Holy Spirit depends on your gospel ministry to regenerate one of God's elect? That's THE issue, isn't it? Is His work of regeneration dependent upon preachers activities of preaching?

I don't even know whether you have started grappling with the issue at hand - whether the gospel ministry plays any role in the regenerating of those that are dead in trespasses and sins. You have shown NOTHING to that effect from Scriptures!

There is an unbridgeable gulf between the two views...

You believe the gospel PLAYS AN INDISPENSABLE ROLE in the REGENERATION of life. I believe it DOES NOT play any role in the begetting of life.

I believe the gospel PLAYS AN INDISPENSABLE ROLE in the CONVERSION of those whom God, by Himself alone, has begotten as His children.

I don't even know whether you appreciate the vast distinction between REGENERATION and CONVERSION?

Go back far enough in church history, and you will discover that gospel regeneration was a novelty. Look at all the historic confessions of faith that were produced post-Reformation - e.g. Three Form of Unity, WCF, Savoy, 1689, etc - and show us where gospel regeneration is believed by them?

The gospel is for the instruction and nurturing of those that have been given spiritual life. It plays no role in bringing forth spiritual life in those dead in trespasses and sins.

Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind on this matter.

We shouldn't be wasting time to hear shibboleth and platitudes from each other!

Have a good day.

Sing F Lau
"When or how a person is regenerated is only by the Spirit."

If it is ONLY by the Spirit, then where is the place left for the gospel ministry in regeneration?

"ONLY" is a very abused word. People don't really means it.

You have been insisting that regenerating is ONLY by the Holy Spirit, and the gospel ministry is the INDISPENSABLE MEANS to it. You have just repudiated your own statement that regeneration is ONLY by the Spirit!

That means you have CONDITIONED the Spirit's work of regeneration upon the gospel ministry of man!

And there are serious theological implications in this popular view! But of course, you are blind to them at the moment. May the Lord grant you light to see. Amen.

God uses Preachers in Regeneration, or Conversion?

Would the most faithful preacher and his eloquent
and persuasive preaching do any good
to this lad if he is still dead in his trespasses and sins?

What great good could his ministry bring to this lad
if the Lord has saved him,
i.e. called him out of his state of sin and death
to that of grace and salvation?
=====

A brother posted this quote, and some discussion followed:

"I do not come into this pulpit hoping that perhaps somebody will of his own free will return to Christ. My hope lies in another quarter. I hope that my Master will lay hold of some of them and say, 'You are mine, and you shall be mine. I claim you for myself.' My hope arises from the freeness of grace, and not from the freedom of the will." ~ C. H. Spurgeon


Sing F Lau
Spurgeon said, "I hope that my Master WILL LAY HOLD of some of them and say..."

It would reflect the gospel truth more precisely is he had said, "I hope that my Master HAS LAID HOLD of some of them and HAS SAID..."

Spurgeon's words lend credence to, if not imply, the common error of 'gospel regeneration' - i.e. AS/WHILE he preaches, Christ by His Spirit uses the preached word to regenerate sinners dead in trespasses and sins.

That is a plain and obvious error. I am not saying that Spurgeon embraced 'gospel regeneration.' I just don't know whether he embrace such error or not.

So many believe the lie of 'gospel regeneration'. This human idea will EXCLUDE many of God's elect from heaven! Think about it.

The Scriptures declare: "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which ARE SAVED it is the power of God." The gospel comes to those that ARE SAVED... i.e. presently ALREADY in the state of salvation... therefore to them, the gospel is the good news that informs them of the power of God in saving them.

To them that ARE perishing, all the most eloquent and persuasive preaching of the good news of salvation would be foolishness.

True freeness of grace EXCLUDES man's contribution and human means in our eternal salvation. That is unadulterated salvation by grace alone.

Perhaps by those words, Spurgeon has CONVERSION in mind and not regeneration. Then three hearty AMEN to the quote!

Adam
@ Sing - I am not so familiar with the term "Gospel Regeneration." As far as I can see in scripture, the Spirit most definitely uses preaching to awaken sinners. It is then His work to regenerate them. The first sermon after Pentecost comes to mind.
Thanks for the input... I'll study up on this.

Sing F Lau
I wish to inquire: what is the difference between 'to awaken' and 'to regenerate' in what you said above? Are they two distinct acts? If they are, which comes first? Is someone spiritually dead capable of being awakened to spiritual things? Or ONLY the regenerated can be awakened to the truth of their salvation by God's free grace? Honest question?

Kindly note one fundamental, non-negotiable truth when it comes to regeneration: please note "so is EVERY ONE that is born of the Spirit" in the following declaration from the lips of Christ, "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."

There is ONLY one way/manner of regeneration for every elect. So, either it is EVERY ONE by means of the gospel preaching, or EVERY ONE without the means of gospel preaching.

Does when and where the wind blow dependent upon anything in the things blown at?

We will see the conversion that took place on the day of Pentecost later.


Lahry
Salvation, as I understand it, is a work of grace (unmerited favour, much the same as was received by "the prodigal son") in response to faith. Where does faith come from? God anoints the preaching of a born again believer. Sometimes this preacher uses words, but most often not.
Most folks these days that I know have little confidence in what is said in church. They are more interested in what "works" in how they live their everyday life. If we are not walking in the Spirit every minute of every day, they will easily spot our hypocrisy and loose faith in the reality of our zealous claims about God and His salvation.

All salvation is a work of God and therefore a work of Grace. it is supernatural, beyond man's carnal reach. It then becomes obvious to all that something above the natural has happened in the life of the person who is saved. Why? Well, their very nature has been changed by God. Holiness and obedience become natural acts, not religious acts. God is glorified as His power is released to whosoever will.

To God be the glory, Lahry

Adam
@Sing I hear your question, but don't you feel it is the same kind of question the scribes and pharisees asked Jesus? Maybe I'm just not following your thoughts correctly. Are you saying it is worthless to preach to heathen? What then do you do with Mark 16... "And he said to them, Go you into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believes and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believes not shall be damned."

Sing F Lau
Brother Lahry, Eternal salvation is indeed by God's grace. Amen. So, what role does preaching play in that eternal salvation that is entirely by God's free and unmerited grace? That's the question at hand.

Sing F Lau
Brother Adam, your mention of the first sermon on the day of Pentecost is actually very beneficial. It will afford to learn something very important.

What happened by the preaching of that sermon? Were people regenerated AND converted through the preaching, OR were people converted through the preaching of the gospel? (I assume that you are aware of the vast distinction between regeneration and conversion.)

If the former, then those same people were still dead in trespasses and sins before this. If the latter, then those same people were ALREADY regenerated before that sermon. What does the text tell us about this matter?

Who were converted by that sermon on the day of Pentecost? Were they local Jews who had witnessed the ministry of Christ for 3 years? Or were they Jews specifically mentioned in Acts 2:5, the same subjects throughout Acts 2. These Jews were "devout men, out of every nation under heaven" - they have come to Jerusalem to observe the day of Pentecost.

It is said of these men, "And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?"

And they said, "we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God." They were able to discern spiritual things even before the preaching began!

My question: were these devout men regenerated men before they came to Jerusalem, or were they still men dead in trespasses and sins before they came to Jerusalem? Were they regenerated through the preaching of Peter?

Was Cornelius regenerated before Peter brought the gospel to him?
May our Lord grant us to know the truth.

Adam
@Sing - Shouldn't the point of preaching be to declare the oracles of God? If so, we need only be concerned that we declare the truth. Let God determine when/how a soul is regenerated for that is not our work.

Sing F Lau
@Adam: "Are you saying it is worthless to preach to heathen?"
Not at all... but God's children are found in the midst of heathen, they were heathen too before God made them His children by grace! They need to be reached with the gospel and be gathered into NT churches. That's the purpose of the gospel ministry - it is gathering in God's children; ... it is NOT helping God to produce His children, i.e. it has no part in regeneration.

Why would a question like "what role does preaching play in the eternal salvation that is entirely by God's free and unmerited grace" be likened to those legalistic questions posed by the scribes and the Pharisees? The question I pose has great implication: if gospel regeneration be true, then it WILL EXCLUDE many of God's elect people from heaven, from being regenerated. Do you connect?

Sing F Lau
@Adam "Shouldn't the point in preaching be to declare the oracles of God? If so, we need only be concerned that we declare the truth. Let God determine when/how a soul is regenerated for that is not our work."

Yes and amen to the first 2 sentences.
Yes and amen to the 3rd too - it is not a matter of letting God determine when and how... it is stating what God HAS REVEALED about when and how a sinner is regenerated. God has determined and fixed His manner of regenerating sinners dead in trespasses and sins.

It is our work and duty to rightly divide the word of truth that has been given to us, and teach the right thing. Do you connect?

Adam
Brother Sing - I do follow your question. I suppose the issue is that there is very little mention in scripture concerning this topic directly. We will do well to keep our minds on the Word of God. If we have wrong notions, surely it will show up in our lives. However, there are some topics that have been disputed for centuries... let us know God and His Spirit will guide us into all truth.

Sing F Lau
The issue is simple: it is either
- preaching does play a role in helping God to regenerate sinners dead in trespasses and sins.
- preaching plays NO role in the regeneration of sinners dead in trespasses and sins.

It is either one or the other... since "so is EVERY ONE that is born of the Spirit."

The dispute will continue as long as the gospel truth matters to God's children.

Does the Bible say anything about this? Is the Bible clear on this?

Amen. Let us know God by studying and rightly dividing the word of truth.


Lahry
Paul said we are all saved by grace through faith. Faith cometh by hearing, hearing by the Word of God. How can they hear if there is no preacher?

Sing F Lau
Amen and amen.
Faith cometh by hearing - indeed.
But there are so many that insist that regeneration cometh by hearing! It is the gospel ministry that draws out the grace of faith ALREADY worked within the heart by the indwelling Spirit... thus the grace of faith is evidenced and manifested in the believing.

Faith cometh by hearing... conversion from errors and lies requires the hearing of the gospel truth. Faith can only be drawn forth from a regenerated man...

And "hearing [cometh] by the Word of God."
May I suggest, and humbly request you to consider very carefully, that the 'Word of God" here is NOT the preached word, nor the written word. This is what SO VERY MANY believe.

The ability to hear spiritually is the result of the spiritual life given by the Word of God - the Word of God as in John 1:1 and Rev 19:13. Hearing is an act of life... and life must precede the activities of that life.

Jn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Re 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Sing F Lau
Brother Lahry @ "We are all saved by grace through faith" - amen and amen. 

If you don't mind, read this short article and tell me what you think. You are an older Brother, and I want to learn from you. Any constructive criticism is welcome.

http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2008/01/saved-by-grace-through-faith-whose.html


Sing F Lau
Lahry@ "How can they hear if there is no preacher?"
Amen and amen. No hearing of the gospel, no conversion.
Too many insist, no hearing, no regeneration.
There are very many who cannot distinguish regeneration from conversion. Regeneration is WHOLLY and SOLELY a divine work - once for all, perfect and complete, unrepeatable. Conversion is a synergistic work - God blessing the preached word to inform and enlighten and edify His children about the truth of their salvation, thus converting them to the truth.

There is a vast difference between the two. The former is wholly and solely the divine work - no human activities, including preaching, play any role in it. Regeneration is the immediate work of the Spirit of God. Just like fathering a child in the wife is the immediate work of the husband, no others - e.g. doctors, nurses, midwives, etc - are involved in the act.
May our Lord bless us to know His truth.

Adam
Bro Sing - You have caused me to think... which isn't a bad thing. See what Martyn Lloyd Jones said concerning the Chief End of Preaching:

What is Preaching? Logic on fire! Eloquent reason! Are these contradictions? Of course, they are not. Reason concerning this Truth ought to be mightily eloquent, as you see it in the case of the Apostle Paul and others. It is theology on fire. And a theology which does not take fire, I maintain, is a defective theology; or at least the man's understanding of it is defective. Preaching is theology coming through a man who is on fire. A true understanding and experience of the Truth must lead to this. . . . A man who can speak about these things dispassionately has no right whatsoever to be in a pulpit; and should never be allowed to enter one.

What is the chief end of preaching? . . . To give men and women a sense of God and His presence. . . . I can forgive a man for a bad sermon, I can forgive the preacher almost anything if he gives me a sense of God, if he gives me something for my soul, if he gives me the sense that, though he is inadequate himself, he is handling something which is very great and very glorious, if he gives me some dim glimpse of the majesty and the glory of God, the love of Christ my Saviour, and the magnificence of the Gospel. If he does that I am his debtor, and I am profoundly grateful to him. Preaching is the most amazing, and the most thrilling activity that one can ever be engaged in, because of all that it holds out for all of us in the present, and because of the glorious endless possibilities in an eternal future. ...

Sing F Lau
Thanks. Lloyd-Jones Memorial Fund paid for my 2 years at the London Theological Seminary, of which Lloyd-Jones was instrumental in founding.
I have read some of his works, especially those published under his own supervision.

He was a fine logician, as well as a preacher. Man made in the image of God is a rational creature. Illogical opinions do not convince sound-minded people. Spiritually dead people have no use for preaching. It repulses them... it is utter foolishness to them.

Lahry
@ Adam - I hope you don't mind if I spread your post above around the net a bit. ;)
@Sing - I do have your questions in my heart, but I do not have the time at the moment to address them. I am not ignoring you. I will get to you as soon as possible.
God bless you both.

Lahry
Dear Sing, I'm not really sure what your purpose is or your point for that matter. Jesus said in Matthew that except we become converted and like a little child (totally trusting in His Lordship over our lives) we could not enter in. If you look up the word for "converted", it is the same word translated "repentance".
[those still dead in trespasses and sins are not capable of repenting or converted; this is very basic, sing]

A man's sin debt is wiped away by his/her faith in the finished work of Christ. From that moment on, the Father looks at us through the Son. Our lives become hidden in His life. We are not only justified, but also sanctified, set apart. How does one know that his has in fact become a reality? Because their life begins to change from one of rebellion and sin, to obedience and holiness. God places in us the will and desire to do His good pleasure. Obeying God becomes something that we want to do rather than something we feel obligated to do. We operate our lives from the heavenly position of being saved, rather than working hoping to be good enough for God to want to save us.

Remember, Paul said that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
If you have a point with this word jangling, I would appreciate it if you would just speak your mind and get on with. We are interested in what you have to say.
Forgive me if my comments lack the eloquence they should. I'm quite tired. I've never shown interest in things that beat around the bush. If you have something to say, say it, we'll be glad to share our hearts with you. We love you and value your fellowship. God bless you and I hope to hear from you soon.

In Him,
Bro. Lahry


Adam
Sing - How do you take the following?

Acts 16:14-15
"And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended to the things which were spoken of Paul. And when she was baptized, and her household, she sought us, saying, If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us."

Now did the Lord open her heart before or after she heard the message (preaching)? What does it mean then that the Lord opened her heart?


Sing F Lau
Adam - please note two things:
First: she 'worshipped God" before the apostle Paul brought the gospel to her. What does this tell us about her spiritual state before hearing the gospel from Paul? Was Paul's preaching a means of her regeneration or conversion?

Second: "... whose heart the Lord opened..." Good question brother. Please note first that 'opening a heart to understand the gospel message' is NOT - NOT - NOT the same as the Lord quickening a man dead in trespasses and sins."

Very many hold on to the latter fiction, plainly contradicting the fact that Lydia was already a woman who worshipped God... You, as well as I know, a man dead in trespasses and sins is in ENMITY against God.

So, to answer your questions: the Lord opened her heart as she heard the message TO UNDERSTAND the message; the Lord opened her heart means giving her an understanding of the gospel truth being conveyed to her. Only a quickened living heart can be opened!

Ps 119:18 Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law.

Sing F Lau
Lahry - that's ok. there is no more bush left to beat around. We will let the bush recover first... then try again!

[Those still dead in trespasses and sins are not capable of repenting or being converted to the truth. This is very basic, sing]

Gospel ministry plays ABSOLUTELY NO ROLE in regeneration. It was ordained for the CONVERSION of those that God HAS ALREADY freely regenerated. That's the only issue focused on and beaten in this thread!

Lahry
@ Sing - Book, Chapter, and verse please.

Sing F Lau
Brother, if you insist otherwise, it would be VERY EASY for you to state just one example of "Book, Chapter, and verse " to prove your point.

I have shown several biblical examples where preaching plays NO ROLE in the REGENERATION of God's chosen people. Preaching was ordained for the instruction and CONVERSION of God's children, those already regenerated.

Did you notice them or not? Those devout Jews converted on the day of Pentecost... Lydia... Cornelius... the eunuch, etc.

Sing F Lau
You mentioned the passage in Romans 10: "Faith cometh by hearing, hearing by the Word of God. How can they hear if there is no preacher? "

I do hope you really meant "how can they HEAR if there is no preacher?" and NOT "how can they LIVE/BE REGENERATED if there is no preacher?" So many read it that way... gospel preaching is necessary for regeneration!

The subject (people) under consideration are those that are CAPABLE of hearing, i.e. they are ALREADY regenerated and made alive freely by the Spirit of God. These need the preacher to bring the gospel to them, so that they may hear the good news of their salvation, and believe the truth. ... See More

Faith cometh by hearing... therefore it is necessary that these ALREADY regenerated children of God hear the gospel, the good news of their salvation, that they may be converted to the truth of the gospel.

No gospel preaching - no conversion - that's the biblical truth.

So many insist - no gospel preaching, no REGENERATION.

Lahry
Sing - would you please give a clear definition of:
Regeneration
Conversion
As best you can? Thanks.

Sing F Lau
Brother Lahry, I didn't notice your inquiry until just now. Sorry.

Let me try to put it briefly. Tell me if it comes across as clear.

The Scripture declares that man by nature is dead in trespasses and sins. This deadness speaks of the sinner's utter inability to do anything to bring himself to God. In fact, a man by nature is in ENMITY against God, an ENEMY and a REBEL with respect to God.

Regeneration is the free and sovereign activity of the Spirit of God in bringing SUCH a sinner to spiritual life, by giving him a new nature.

Regeneration is QUICKENING the dead. God does this ALL on His own without any contribution, aid or cooperation from man. There is no exception whatsoever - "so is every one that is born of the Spirit" - every one regenerated, born again, quickened, raised from the dead, etc DIRECTLY and IMMEDIATELY without any human means. "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" - every possibility on man's part is wholly and completely excluded.

God alone must raise the dead - and that without means or instrumentality of the gospel ministry.

CONVERSION: is turning a child of God towards the gospel truth and away from errors and ignorance and falsehood by the ministry of the gospel, the means God has appointed as the means to turn His children (those He Himself has regenerated by His Spirit) to the truth of the gospel, and way from errors and falsehood.

Only the spiritually alive can be converted. Gospel truth informs and instructs and edifies... and only the spiritual can discern the spiritual truth and be converted, turned away from lies and deception and seduction... and walk in the truth of God.

I don't know if the above helps. I think Mr W. E. Best wrote a very useful treaty on Regeneration and Conversion. Get hold of it and study it.

Lahry
I like most of what you said, Sing. Certainly, no man comes except the Father draw Him. But man is not forced to come, once grace is bestowed.
What say ye of this verse?
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

[sing: grace must be bestowed first, i.e. salvation must first be applied to an elect dead in trespasses and sins, then he is capable of being called by the gospel to believe the Saviour."

Sing F Lau
Too many people make this passage to say that as many as believe in Christ ARE THEN made children of God... i.e. they are MADE children BECAUSE they believe in Christ. This fiction is based on the falsehood that those who are not born again can receive Christ, thus ignoring and contradicting the PLAINEST words of Christ in John 3:3,5.

Also, this erroneous idea equates the bestowal of 'the power to become the sons of God' as equivalent to being BORN AGAIN. Common sense tells us that the actual birth MUST PRECEDE the experience of the right of sonship upon believing.

How, in what sense, does believing in Christ give a believer to right and authority to claim that God is his Father?

Christ said, 'whosoever believes HAS (possesses) eternal life." So, whoever believes in Him, has the right and authority to claim that he has been given eternal life... I.E. he has been born again by God, "which WERE - WERE - WERE born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. He has the right and authority to claim God as his Father!

John 1:12-13 read:
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

"THEM THAT BELIEVE" is a PRESENT active participle; i.e. the believing ones. 
"WHICH WERE BORN" is AORIST indicative passive.

"Were born" must be prior to "them that believe.".
The fact of the birth by God must be first.
The experience of the privilege - claiming God as one's Father - comes later, by as many as believe and receive Christ.

Now let me hear what you read out of the verse.

Lahry
As I understand it, it says He gave them the "power" to "become", not that they are actually "yet". So I'm curious as to how you understand this and how it fits into what you were attempting to explain earlier?

Sing F Lau
Words have meaning, and words are to be understood in their context. In order for them to believe, they must have been born of God, therefore ALREADY born sons.

But prior to believing, these already-born sons DO NOT YET have the power (right and authority) to call God as their Father. Before their believing there is no evidence that they are God's children, born of God.

The BIRTH itself must PRECEDE the ACT of believing. And the ACT of believing must PRECEDE the bestowal of the power (right and authority) to become God's children, to claim oneself as God's children.

I thought this is so plain and obvious.

Imagine a man has fathered a child in his wife, and the child was born in due time. But until this child believes the truth of his being by the father he does not have the power (right and authority) to claim himself as the son of the man!

The FACT of sonship precedes the EXPERIENCE of the blessings of that sonship.

To be born/regenerated children of God and to be given the power to become children of God are two distinct and separate matters. A biblical distinction is the essence of sound theology. 

Lahry
Sing, with all due respect, it appears to me that you have been listening to many voices and are quite confused. May I suggest that you just spend time with the Holy Spirit and the Word and let Him reveal God's hope in your heart?
All of the things you write wreak of philosophy. You seem to wrangle over what comes first, the chicken or the egg. There are many things to be concerned about before attempting to split hairs.

Sing F Lau
Hmmmm! Maybe I have been reading the passage too many times... and hearing the Holy Spirit speaks distinctly from the written words the order of various events happening, thus making plain what it means to be given the power to become children of God.

If one is not yet born of God, how could he ever believe? Surely this is a most basic and fundamental issue in any discussion on the salvation of sinners. And so to be given the power to become God's children that is CONDITIONED on believing CANNOT possibly be related to being born as God's children.

This is common sense, not philosophy! Maybe you have become too sophisticated to understand simple things!

Lahry

Quite the contrary sir. I relish simple things. I'm a simple person. You attempt to teach by hanging pictures in the air, asking questions, speaking mysteries. Do you think I've not seen this before? You bait people into allowing you to manipulate their thoughts so that you become the master instead of the Lord Jesus Christ. If you would state your position plainly, then perhaps you would enjoy more freedom of expression by others.

Sing F Lau
Lahry, you are a much older man, and have probably seen lots of things I have not even thought of! But to accuse me of baiting people and manipulating others is quite amusing! I do want to engage sound minded students of God's word to study God's word. Only the ignorant can be baited and manipulated... and I have not desire to waste time with such.

One way to get the attention of sound-minded students is to get them to re-examine a subject by asking relevant and direct questions. If you wish me to draw pictures on the ground, then let me know

I fear many won't participate or feel comfortable for fear that their beliefs are shown to be in error. I am always thankful when I am shown my errors... James 5:19-20.

Going back to the truth of Jesus Christ is the sole purpose of my activity on Facebook.

Lahry

Sing, if you know me, you know I am not one to amuse. Draw the picture if you must. State your case for the scriptures. Let everyone make up their own mind. It has been my experience that if you step outside "the norms" you'll get plenty of discussion.
I do not find this conversation any longer productive. So I bow out and bid thee well.

=================
Conclusion:
People don't seem to grasp the simple issue - the gospel ministry plays no role in God's work of regenerating sinners dead in their trespasses and sins! They would confound, and mistake the function of the gospel ministry for the conversion of God's children (regenerated elect) as the means for the regeneration of spiritually dead sinners.

Parents' role in saving their children from eternal hell???

Parents' role in saving their children from eternal hell???

A brother posted a quote on parenting, and some exchanges transpired below.

Adam posted this quote
I have often thought that Christ speaks to you, as Pharaoh's daughter did to Moses's mother, "take this child and nurse it for me." 0, sirs, consider, what a precious jewel is committed to your charge, what an advantage you have to show your love to Christ, to stock the generation with noble plants, and what a joyful account you may make if you be faithful....Is not the duty clear? And dare you neglect so direct a command? Are the souls of your children of no value? Are you willing that they should be brands of hell? Are you indifferent whether they be damned or saved? Shall the devil, run away with them without control? Will not you use your utmost endeavors to deliver them from the wrath to come?” ~ James Janeway


FOW:
What a challenge!

Sing F Lau
God's grace in Christ alone shall save a man from eternal hell - nothing more and nothing less, lest eternal salvation by the free and sovereign grace of God ALONE is denied.

However, godly parenting shall save many from the hell on earth.

EVEN SO, the gospel ministry will save many of God's children from much temporal judgment and destruction. Only those whom the Lord has saved by His free and sovereign grace will benefit from the gospel ministry. It is foolishness unto all others!

Adam:
Sing... do you have kids? If so, I would be very curious to hear how you raise them in accordance to Eph 6:4 seeing that you are not sure if they are the elect or not.

Sing F Lau
I don't have kids, I have 4 children, 21, 19, 17, and 14. Training children is based solely upon the revealed will of God... what God expects every parent to train and teach what their children ought to know and how they should live in God's world as moral creatures made in the image of God.

Only God can make them His own children. But as parents I am commanded to train them as moral creatures made in the image of God, living in His world and are held accountable, and answerable to Him.

People don't take God's word seriously do they?
"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." John 1:12-13.

I take for granted that the spiritual birth by God must PRECEDE the ability to believe in Christ.

I believe this passage rules out ABSOLUTELY any possibility of human contribution or assistance of any kind or manner towards a person's SON-SHIP with God.

Human efforts, those that have been ordained by God, are most necessary for the DISCIPLE-SHIP of a child of God (which is solely by God's free and sovereign grace)

Distinction is the essence of sound theology - whether doctrinal or practical.

Adam
Sing - I have noticed that the comments you place on all your posts tend to go back to your one point rather than just simply commenting on the matter at hand. The original point of the post is an admonition that we ought to be concerned about the souls of our children. Do you agree with this or not?

Sing F Lau
Brother, that is exactly what I am doing - commenting on the matter at hand. I go back to the one basic fundamental point BECAUSE that has either been rejected or denied or perverted.

The original point of your quote is that we should be concerned with the ETERNAL SALVATION of our children. And all these rhetorical questions prove that:
"...Are you willing that they should be brands of hell? Are you indifferent whether they be damned or saved? Shall the devil, run away with them without control? Will not you use your utmost endeavors to deliver them from the wrath to come?”
These questions plainly imply that the author believe that parents can do something towards the eternal salvation of their children!

My comment is to show that that notion is erroneous.

By nature, each child is conceived in sin and born in sin, already child of wrath, unable to receive spiritual things... unless God Himself has worked grace in them. God alone, by His grace through His Son alone, can save a man from that condemned state. In that, no man can do anything or assist God in any way.

God alone, by His grace in Christ alone, can and will take care of all those things raised in the rhetorical questions, i.e. God alone, by His grace in Christ alone can save a man from hell, save a man from eternal damnation, save a man from the hand of the devil, save a man from the wrath to come. In these NO MAN can do anything or assist in anyway!

But parents can do a great deal to save their children from HELL on earth, in this life. Yes, we are to be very concerned about the soul of our children - BUT only in the temporal sense... relating to their temporal well-being.

God expects us to do those things that are in our capacity to do. God alone can, and will do those things that He alone has power to do.

May our Lord grant you understanding, and teach the truth of the gospel.

Raise the Dead by means of preaching the gospel - Really?

An exchanged that took place on Facebook after a Brother posted a quote from Spurgeon

Jason posted:
"Christian Mission--- Raise the Dead by means of preaching the Gospel."

Sing F Lau
No, no, no - way off the truth of the Scriptures!

Christian mission: make disciples of God's children, those ALREADY regenerated by the direct regenerating work of the Spirit of God WITHOUT the preaching of the gospel.

The great commission is to make DISCIPLES. It is not helping God to make His children!

And disciples can only be made out of those who are already God's children.

We can make disciples of sinners still dead in their sins!

Jason
Yes yes yes perhaps when you see Spurgeon you can let him know as the comment is from a sermon he preached from the bible.

James
I think the quote above is addressing the spiritually "dead."

Stephens
Those outside of Christ are not children of God but children of wrath. All are made in the image of God (though in a fallen state) but not all are children of God. God uses the preaching of his word to bring people from spiritual death to life. Read Eph.2.

Sing F Lau
If God uses the preaching of his word to bring people from spiritual death to life - then eternal salvation becomes dependent in some way upon the faithfulness of the preachers, the purity of the message preached, the ability of the hearers in understanding, etc, etc, etc... and many of God's children will be shut out of their eternal glory!

" 29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

Does any man play any part in this passage? Do remember the declaration here applies to ABSOLUTELY EVERY ELECT of God.

Bjack M:
Sing F Lau... I don't know where you are getting your information. No one is denying that discipleship is not one of the primary duties of a Christian, but first we must get diciples for Christ by preaching the Gospel. Romans 10:13-15.. Out of Love for God and then for people the proclamation of the Gospel is the Christians main business in life according to the Word of God and to Charles Spurgeon and any other God fearing man I have ever known or heard of Colossians 1:28-"We preach,warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom so that we may present every man perfect or mature in Christ Jesus."..So we are to warn people that they must repent and put their full faith and trust in Christ alone to save them and then we must help them to grow mature in the faith by teaching.

Sing F Lau
Bjack: True. But disciples can only be made out of God's children who are ALREADY by God's own and sovereign work.

We are in the business of making disciples of God's children, who WERE born "not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

We are not in the business of assisting God to make His children. That is what so many think they are doing- just like a silly midwife that she helped a man to father a child in his wife! A midwife can only help deliver a life that is already there!

Disciples can only be made out of God's children that He by His own power and will has born!

So, please distinguish the issues at hand.

The gospel ministry is of utmost important... but it plays NIL, ZIL, ZERO role in helping God make His children. It plays crucial role in converting them to the truth.

Jason
Sing you already know I know only God raises the dead he does so by the preaching of his word and he uses men to proclaim it. I recommend the book Soul Winner by Spurgeon we also know from scripture the verse says he who wins souls is wise knowing that I understand fully it is God alone who wins the soul unto himself I am convinced not the most beautiful eloquent speech of the benefits of heaven nor the fiery sermons against the furnace of hell will reach men unless God himself awakens a dead sinner from the grave Salvation belongs fully to God.

Sing F Lau
Good news INSTRUCT and INFORM and EDIFY.
Good news play NO part in God raising the dead.

Jesus raised the dead Lazarus... the disciples did not assist in any way. When Larazus was already raised, the disciples did help to removed the grave clothes...
That's a perfect illustration of the place and role of the gospel ministry through men.

Only those whom God has born again and given eternal life can be instructed and informed by the gospel truth of their salvation.

God raises the dead without the need of preaching.

Those ALREADY raised by God need the preaching of the gospel that they may be informed and instructed of the truth of their eternal salvation by the free grace of God.

If you still cannot see the difference, then saying anymore would be fruitless.

Stephens:
Its simple, God is sovereign and the author of salvation yet scripture is also clear it is our job to fulfill the great commission and preach the gospel to all peoples. We do not know who all the elect are and God uses the proclamation of His Word as His means for drawing His chosen people. I guess that's not simple but I tried to sum it up.

Jason
I fully understand and see the difference perhaps you need to understand God needs nothing including preaching to do anything however that does not mean he does not use it.

Bjack M
Sing F Lau enough said..I now understand your position - Hyper-calvinism. It would be scary to look into the mind of a Calvinist, much more a Hyper-Calvinist and see their thoughts on the very nature and character of God..."What comes to your mind when you think about God is the most important thing about you." AW Tozer

Jason
Bjack Sing is very reformed perhaps you have not taken the time to look at his site in fact he and I both agree with John Gill a staunch calvinist. The above comment is not about Election but rather exhorting Christians to proclaim the Gospel knowing God uses the preaching of his word to awaken sinners while God is not limited to this does not mean that he does not use it. I could say I prayed for so and so knowing it was not my prayer itself that will save anyone but rather The power of God unto salvation that saves. God does not depend on preaching prayer fasting to save his elect but yet commands all of the above.

Jason
It is at the height of arrogance pride and heresy to think that we need to preach because God is depending on us. God depends on no one but himself however he does use the foolishness of preaching to save those who believe.

Sing F Lau
Bjack: food is very important... but food is good ONLY for the living. Food plays no role in giving life to the dead. Is that simple and common sense enough or is it hyper-super-ultra abc-ism?

The gospel ministry is VERY important. But what is it important for? Was it APPOINTED by God as a means to help God to give life to the dead? Or was it appointed by God as a means to inform and instruct His children concerning their salvation by God's free grace?

Hello, I am only talking common sense. So, do not resort to labels. Let's just talk common sense, OK? It is people who can't conduct a discussion decently that resort to throwing labels!

Are you a married man, and a father? Did all those milk and diapers and baby's clothes assist you in any way to father your children? Or are those good things only for the well-being of the child fathered by you WITHOUT the helps of all those things? Can't remember? Ask thy wife! Women remember things much better

Bjack M:
Lol..I don't have to look at his site to know that he is hyper-calvinist and hyper calvinism is his foundation for everything that he has said.His whole discussion is based on this.He has just taken what you believe to the next step or to it's logical end.He just thinks God is more sovereign than you.I would have to agree with Sing.It is ridiculous to think that we have to preach the Gospel if God is not using us in the salvation of souls.If He is not using us(2 Cor 5) to IMPLORE people on CHRIST'S BEHALF to be reconciled to God.We definitely have a responsibility to WARN people.ummm..Why would we need to warn with tears in our eyes the ELECT to flee from the coming wrath to come.EPH 6:19 There is no need for the emotions or pleading or the law or fear..Just Preach Jesus Christ and Him Crucified with none of the above. Of course God uses our faithfulness to help further His Kingdom.

Sing F Lau
Bjack, what do you think of this statement?
"These angels and men thus predestined and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished." Is this hyper-calvinistic?

Stephens
Sing, hyper-calvinism is when you believe that God just does all the work and that since we are elect we can basically be couch potatoes and we never need to share our faith or anything. That is contrary to Gods Word. We are commanded to be out calling all people to repent and believe just as Jesus did early in His ministry. We need to go to the peoples who have never heard the gospel and share that truth with them. Think of John Paton for example. Read J.I. Packers book "Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God".

Jason
Stephens: lol I thought hyper- calvinism was a calvinist who had one too many energy drinks and couldn't wait to share the Gospel.

Stephens
Lol! You are being sarcastic right? Calvin and Spurgeon and Whitefield sure weren't hyper calvinists...

Sing F Lau
I wrote these words here http://pruning-deformed-branches.blogspot.com/2008/01/two-orders-compared.html
======
The situation is "like a Genevan who believes that milk, diapers and baby clothes are necessary for the conception of a child calling a Chinese brother a ‘hyper-calvinist’ just because he believes that milk and baby clothes are necessary only for the growth and development of the child already delivered. How bizarre can the world get!

"It get even more bizarre when a Genevan misrepresents the Chinese brother as saying, “milk, diapers, and baby clothes are not needed at all for new born babes.” A ‘standard reformed’ brother boldly retorted, ‘If justification is prior to faith, then there is no need of faith at all; then what need is there for preaching!’ It is like a man saying to his wife, ‘darling wifey, you said milk and baby clothes are not needed for the conception and the delivery of a child, then what need is there to shop for these things for our new born baby?’ The wifey rolled her eyes and said, ‘Get me the rolling pin, quick, you fool!"
======

Sing F Lau
Bjack wrote: "It is ridiculous to think that we have to preach the Gospel if God is not using us in the salvation of souls. If He is not using us(2 Cor 5) to IMPLORE people on CHRIST'S BEHALF to be reconciled to God.We definitely have a responsibility to WARN people. ummm"

Many think that they can warn those dead in sin and trespasses! Many think they has the ability to IMPLORE those still in enmity against God! What a joke! Christ Himself declared and repeated, "Except a man be born again, he CANNOT..." Many think otherwise... before those dead in trespasses and sins, and in emnity against God are given eternal life, they can be implored and persuaded and warned! Either they are liars, or Christ is!

God send forth laborers to make disciples... to IMPLORE those whom God Himself has regenerated and quickened from spiritual death - "which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" - and bestowed with eternal life... to plead with them to turn from their errors and be converted to the truth, and embrace the truth of their salvation by God's free grace, to walk soberly, godly and righteously.

Sing F Lau
Stephens@ "Sing, hyper-calvinism is when you believe that God just does all the work and that since we are elect we can basically be couch potatoes and we never need to share our faith or anything. That is contrary to Gods Word."

The Bible AFFIRMS that in eternal salvation God ALONE DOES ALL the work Himself.
" 29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

The Bibles AFFIRMS that in temporal salvation, God commands His children to work out their OWN SALVATION with fear and trembling.

Sing F Lau
Stephens said:" hyper-calvinism is when you believe that God just does all the work... and we never need to share our faith or anything. That is contrary to Gods Word."

The issue is NOT whether to share the gospel or not. It is a settled issue that the gospel ministry is very important - but important for what?

The Arminians insist that it is the means appointed by God to help Him to give life to the dead.

The Bible affirms that it is the means appointed by God to instruct and inform His children (those whom God Himself has begotten by His free grace) concerning their eternal salvation by God's grace in Jesus Christ.

Stephens
Sing you are a hyper-calvinist, it shows in the point you are trying to make. I am concerned for you my friend. Christ told us to preach the gospel to all peoples in all nations! If we don't give the gospel to the lost, how can they be saved? "Faith comes by hearing the word of God" as Paul said.

Repent of the dangerous doctrine you are promoting man. God is the author of salvation but he uses the power of his word preached by men as his means of saving us.

You aren't saved when you are born if you are elect but if you are elect that means you will eventually hear the Gospel and be saved and given new life in Christ in His perfect timing. There will be no empty seats in heaven.

Stephens
All men are given a chance to repent and believe and yet God must grant them regeneration. The bible says that Pharoe hardened his heart against Moses and was fully responsible for his actions yet it also says God heardened his heart that His power might be displayed.

Sing F Lau
Jason@ "The bible says that Pharoe hardened his heart against Moses and was fully responsible for his actions yet it also says God hardened his heart that His power might be displayed."

Does God ever harden the heart of those whom He has predestined unto eternal life, whose redemption Christ has purchased, and whom the Spirit of God has regenerated and applied that eternal salvation? God is perfectly harmonious and consistent in all His acts.

Yes, God always give enough ropes for rebels to hang themselves - and the condemnation is SOLELY upon their own head.

Yes, indeed the power and grace of God is gloriously displayed in free and sovereign activities of saving His people who were DEAD in trespasses and sins. God alone must give them ETERNAL salvation... then and only then, those that ARE SAVED are able to do something to save themselves from the perverse and wicked generation they live in!

Stephens
I think you are still missing the point. The gospel must be preached to all people because we don't know who the elect are. Different people get saved at different points of life. Paul says "how are they to hear without someone preaching?" (Rom. 10:14). Just earlier Paul says "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved" and within that context he is talking about salvation has come to all people, jew and gentile, who repent and believe. Then he says they cant believe until someone is sent to them with the message. We must call all men to repent and believe because we do not know who the elect are? Does this make sense to you? Get out of the error of hyper-calvinism, its a dangerous doctrine that destroys the call to be a witness of the gospel to all people.

Sing F Lau
I wander who is missing the point! It seems you are the one missing the point. The fact that you bring up the point of the vital need to the gospel, which I strongly advocate and practiced, is CONCLUSIVE evidence that you have missed the point all along.

I did say the gospel ministry is VERY important, didn't I? You insist that it is important for one thing, I insist that it is not for that one thing but for another. Do you understand? [It is like we both insist that foof is very important. However, you insist that food is for bringing life to the dead, whereas I insist that food is for nourishing the living. Do you understand?]

Who is denying that the gospel is not to be preached to all WITHOUT distinction? It has to be preached to all BECAUSE God's children (yes, the elect that has been REGENERATED) are found among the multitudes of people.

Stephens@ "Paul says "how are they to hear without someone preaching?"... Then he says they cant believe until someone is sent to them with the message."

However, Paul DIDN'T say, "how are they to BE REGENERATED without someone preaching" DID he? It seems that you are insisting just that if I have understood what you have written so far.

Paul DIDN'T say, "... they can't BE REGENERATED until someone is sent to them with the message" DID he? It seems that you are insisting just that if have understood what you have written so far.

Paul's rhetorical questions 'how are they to HEAR?... how are they to believe?' PRESUPPOSE that we are dealing with people who are ALREADY regenerated... it is SUCH alone who are able to hear and to believe."

So many, you included, if I have not misunderstood you, insist that the preaching of the gospel is indispensable to the regeneration of sinners dead in their trespasses and sins.

Conclusion:
So these confused people, who mumble from one side of their big mouth that salvation is by the grace of God alone, and then in the next breath, from the other side of their mouth insist that that same salvation is conditioned upon the preachers' ministry, and most certainly the believer's faith in Christ too.

If God's sovereign work of saving His people is conditioned upon the activities of preachers, then, just what kind of preaching would God use to help Him to regenerate sinners dead in trespasses and sins?

And this is eternal life!

A brother posted this passage, and some exchanges followed:
"And this is eternal life,
that they know You the only true God,
and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."
(John 17:3)

Taeka
"And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life" 1 John 5:11,12

Schalk
Amen!

Elaine
I love 1 John...all of it! As well as all of John's writings. How blessed we are to know Jesus thru his eyes.

Charles
He was the disciple Jesus loved. :-)

Sing F Lau
Eternal life is given, by God's free and sovereign grace when we were dead in trespasses and sins, SO THAT we may know the good news, THAT IS, God is the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom He sent to save us.

So many insist that one must believe in order to have eternal life. Even the Reformed Baptist churches in Malaysia believe such notion, and defend it vigorously.

See here
http://pruning-deformed-branches.blogspot.com/2008/01/pruning-7-deformed-branches-5-summary.html

Taeka
I will give them a heart to know me, that I am the LORD. They will be my people, and I will be their God, for they will return to me with all their heart. (Jeremiah 24:7)

Sing F Lau
"It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."

"Taught of God" is WITHOUT human instrumentality.
God teaches each elect - "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them."

Sing F Lau
Heidi - Jesus died for His own people, those that the Father has given to Him - to save them. To tell those for whom Christ did not die to believe that Jesus did die for them to save them WOULD BE telling them a lie and asking them to believe a lie!

Jesus speaks the truth:
"For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day... As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him."

"as many as" - not one more, and not one less!

Many preachers preach lies, and expect some to believe lies!

Sing F Lau
Faith is a fruit and evidence of eternal life that has been given when one was DEAD in trespasses and sins.

Sing F Lau
God does not give faith... faith is a grace worked by the Holy Spirit dwelling in the heart. Some children (regenerated elect) will be able to manifest that grace of faith in believing, many others will not be able to manifest that grace of faith in believing.

"So it appears that we agree that one has to have faith in Christ to get to heaven."

You and I do not agree. Simply: you have excluded from heaven those elect that are not able to exercise that grace of faith...

Mark
Heidi - Eph 2:8 tells us that faith is a gift from God, but the verse you cite is James 1:17 - Sorry Sing

Mark
Don't forget: "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." (Jn 3:36) Not the words of man, but the Word of God says so.

Sing F Lau
Faith is NOT a gift of God, salvation is. A gift is from WITHOUT. Faith is one of the many graces worked WITHIN by the indwelling Spirit.

Read a short article on Eph 2:8,9 and see what you think.
http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2008/01/saved-by-grace-through-faith-whose.html

Sing F Lau
"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." (Jn 3:36)

Amen, and so let the word of God say what it says; and let not man impose his idea on the word of God. Often man read into God's word more than it says.

"He who believes in the Son HAS-HAS-HAS eternal life." This is a declaration of fact, it is not a statement of offer. It is not, 'whoever WILL believe in the Son SHALL have life.'

So Mark, let the Scriptures says what it says; don't make it say what you want it to say! A statement of fact is stating a fact; it is not a stating a conditional offer. I hope you can differentiate the two!

The fact declared is this: He who believes DOES SO because of the possession of eternal life. Believing is an activity made possible because of the possession of eternal life.
"He who believes in the Son has eternal life..." Believing evidences the present possession of eternal life. He who presently believes does so because of the present possession of ETERNAL life. Eternal life makes possible the activities of that life - like believing the gospel truth.

"He who does not obey the Son will not see life"
- who can obey God but those who possess eternal life. But the reality is that not everyone who possesses eternal life obey the Son.
- also that life that is obtained by obedience or lost by disobedience CANNOT possibly the ETERNAL life that have been freely given at regeneration by God's grace.
- there are those who possess eternal life that fails to see life... fail to experience the abundance of life here on earth because of their disobedience... much like Lot! They make shipwreck of their faith! Only children of God, possessors of eternal life, can make shipwreck of their faith.

And yes, the wrath of God abides on a disobedient child of God. NO doubt about that.

Many people make this equation:
The number of those possessing eternal life is EXACTLY EQUAL the number of those who believe the gospel and obey the Lord Jesus Christ.

Such idea will exclude many elect children of God from their eternal inheritance! They are incapable of believing. Other never has the privilege of hearing the gospel. But all the elect shall be given ETERNAL LIFE, all by God's free and sovereign grace.

Mark
Sing - If faith is not a gift from God, then the Scripture is lying and is not authoritative for any other proposition and is worthless to us. One of the most basic pre-suppositions of reformed theology is the innerency and reliability of Scripture.Re-read Eph 2:8

Sing F Lau
Brother, I have no use whatsoever with 'reformed' pre-suppositions. I do have much use for what the Scriptures DO TEACH. There is a vast difference between the two.

Faith is one of the many graces worked WITHIN the heart of a child of God. A gift is something that comes to a child of God from WITHOUT. There is a vast difference between the two. I hope you do see the difference.

Yes, take off your reformed glasses and re-read Eph 2:8.

The gift there is clearly salvation by God's free grace. And if by God's free grace, the faith mentioned CAN'T possibly be yours in any remotest sense.

The eternal salvation by God's free grace is through the faith of Jesus Christ, i.e. through Christ's faithfulness that secured the righteousness for our eternal salvation.

Roman 3:22, "Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:"

Please note that the righteousness of God's provision for our eternal salvation is not through your faith in Jesus Christ. That righteousness is by the faith of Jesus, i.e by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ in accomplishing the work of redemption.

Your faith has nothing to do with your eternal salvation EXCEPT to evidence and manifest that salvation that has been accomplished, and applied to your by the free and sovereign grace of God.

An instrument is to evidence and manifest the presence of the specific thing the instrument was designed and ordained to do. Faith is to evidence and manifest the justification that has taken place by God's free grace.

I have no used for reformed shibboleth, said with all due respect to an older Brother.

Sing F Lau
Jesus Himself said,
"Except a man be born again, he CANNOT see the kingdom of God."
"Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he CANNOT enter into the kingdom of God."

So very many insist: a man CAN do something IN ORDER to be born again, given eternal life.

Is it not so plain and obvious to any sane mind that LIFE must precede the activities of THAT LIFE.

Repentance and faith are activities of eternal life, bestowed at new birth, all by God's free and sovereign grace.

Man by nature is in rebellion and enmity against God.

Let God be true, and every man a liar.