A friend wrote (Sat Mar 10, 2007 7:08 am) and asked:
Sing,
Can you tell us the major differences between your understanding of divine predestination and that taught by the Islamics?
Brainy
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Hi Brainy,
However, it is odd that you should me ask such a question - it betrays some serious misunderstanding with my view. What have I written that betrays SUCH fatalistic idea in your mind. Just curious.
Brainy
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Hi Brainy,
I don't know if I can... I don't know what is taught by the Islamics! I have heard that it teaches something like "what shall be, will be" - a kind of fatalism.
However, it is odd that you should me ask such a question - it betrays some serious misunderstanding with my view. What have I written that betrays SUCH fatalistic idea in your mind. Just curious.
I can tell you the little I know what I understand the Bible to say.
"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.” EVERYTHING HERE IS MONERGISTIC - SOLELY AND COMPLETELY by free and sovereign divine grace - of pure and unadulterated divine grace in our eternal salvation. Also all the divine actions here embrace, and apply to every single elect in Christ.
Now let me explain.
The first basic point to note concerning Romans 8:29-30 is that the people embraced here includes every single elect. This simple fact should inform us how we understand the wonderful declaration... The exact number predestinated is the same number effectually called unto eternal life through free grace justification based solely on the righteousness and blood of Jesus Christ. Every single elect predestinated to be conformed to the image of God’s Son, God called... God justified... and God glorified… all by God’s free grace, without any human co-operation. Not a single elect of God missed this call. So, what is this call? Is it the gospel call to faith, or effectual call unto eternal life? This call cannot be the gospel call to conversion - because the gospel call to conversion does not reach every single elect who are effectually called unto eternal life, see 1689.10.3. The call here is the divine effectual call unto eternal life - and this is true of every single elect, with no exception whatsoever, 1689.10.1.
Every elect is called unto eternal life by the direct and immediate and efficacious call of God through His Word (life-giving Christ) and Spirit. This He did by justifying them, i.e. He removed the just condemnation upon them, and applied to them personally the righteousness of Christ, all by pure free grace, not on condition of faith. One is gravely mistaken if he understand the call in Romans 8:30 has anything to do with the gospel call. It is classic eisegesis by very many - the free-willer as well as the so-called 'reformed' folks.
The justification spoken here is the justification applied to an elect at effectual calling unto eternal life, spoken of in 1689.11.1. This is the justification applied to every single elect personally at God's appointed and approved time at effectual calling. This is not the justification experienced by faith through the gospel call - because not all the elect will receive the gospel call and experience justification by faith. The justification spoken of here is justification prior to faith; i.e. justification applied when an elect was a condemned, dead child of wrath.
This passage does not support the view of gospel call leading to justification by faith. There is no gospel call here. There is no justification by faith here. There is effectual call unto life... effectual call unto life requires the removal of the condemnation of death, i.e. it requires the justification secured by Christ to be applied to the elect personally. There is justification by divine free grace through the righteousness of Christ applied to an elect personally. When condemnation is removed, eternal life is bestowed; yes, eternal life is bestowed... thus guaranteeing glorification. Effectual call unto eternal life guarantees glorification regardless of the amount of salvation blessings one will experience through the ministry of the word.
This passage does not support the view of gospel call leading to justification by faith. There is no gospel call here. There is no justification by faith here. There is effectual call unto life... effectual call unto life requires the removal of the condemnation of death, i.e. it requires the justification secured by Christ to be applied to the elect personally. There is justification by divine free grace through the righteousness of Christ applied to an elect personally. When condemnation is removed, eternal life is bestowed; yes, eternal life is bestowed... thus guaranteeing glorification. Effectual call unto eternal life guarantees glorification regardless of the amount of salvation blessings one will experience through the ministry of the word.
There is no gospel call here. Apostle Paul did not say, “whom the preacher called God justified.” The preacher issues a gospel call to conversion. But what did Christ say about the call to life? John 5:25 “Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.” Please note, this does not say the ministry of the preached word, nor the preached words of Christ, it is not the voice of the preacher, but the ‘voice of the Son of God’. How easy it is to usurp Christ in the effectual calling of the spiritually dead elect to eternal life with the preachers’ gospel call of the regenerated elect to belief in the truth.
Those that God has predestinated to eternal salvation, God himself will bring them to eternal salvation, without any assistance or cooperation from finite man.
Where then is the place of the ministry of the word? Good question. It is very necessary for God's children - i.e. the elect already regenerated by God - to hear the word of truth, the gospel of their salvation (Eph 1:13). They need to hear and to know the truth of their glorious salvation by grace. God has appointed the ministry of the word to bring temporal blessings to His children here on earth.
The ministry of the word is MOST NECESSARY - but only for the purpose it is ordained by God, not what man has VAINLY imagined. Preachers have been called to feed the lambs... but many have vainly and foolishly think that God called them and commissioned to HELP God father His children. The command is, "Go, and make disciples..." Too many think it is, "Go and make children of God."
God's children must be discipled... instructed and taught the truth of their eternal salvation by God's free grace, taught to observe all the commands of Christ - this will bring them the temporal salvation in this life. The command is, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations..." Only those whom God has already effectually called to eternal life, bestowed with eternal salvation, are capable of receiving teaching from God-sent preachers. Too many foolishly think, "Go ye therefore, and assist God to bring forth His children."
God's children must be discipled... instructed and taught the truth of their eternal salvation by God's free grace, taught to observe all the commands of Christ - this will bring them the temporal salvation in this life. The command is, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations..." Only those whom God has already effectually called to eternal life, bestowed with eternal salvation, are capable of receiving teaching from God-sent preachers. Too many foolishly think, "Go ye therefore, and assist God to bring forth His children."
The ministry of the word is MOST UNNECESSARY for the BEING of God's children.
The ministry of the word is MOST NECESSARY for the WELL-BEING of God's children.
It was never ordained for that purpose. Deluded man has perverted it. I have not heard of a father who ever claim that diapers and baby clothing, or doctors or midwives, have anything to do with the BEING, the conception and birth of his child. But there are too many deluded preachers and believers who think that the ministry of the word and faith has something to do with their BEING as children of God
Without the ministry of the word, not one jot of the eternal salvation of one elect is ever lost.
Without the ministry of the word, a child of God is deprived of the temporal salvation which comes from the ministry of the word. That explains the urgency of 'preach the word, be instant in season, and out of season...' That explains the command, 'take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou BOTH SAVE THYSELF, AND TEHM that hear thee.'
Would the eternally wise God risk the eternal salvation of His elect by conditioning it upon something finite man must cooperate and assist and do? God forbids.
That's about all I know - and it is a fraction of a drop in the south china sea.
God is sovereign, and I am an optimist.
Now, you may tell me the difference between what I believe and what a muslim believes about 'fatalism'.
sing
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Who would you want to do the choosing?
If God DID NOT already predestinate and choose to save and bring some people to heaven, then what would happen? If God did not foreknow, predestinate, call, justify and glorify any sinner, and instead, but leave the whole matter to sinners to decide, would any sinner ever decide to go to heaven, a place so hateful, and contrary to their sinful nature?
If God were to leave it to HELL DESERVING sinners, who are in enmity against Him, to choose and decide for themselves whether they would want to go to heaven or not, would any of them be found in heaven? Would anyone choose to be with Him?
(One might as well leave it to the fish to decide and choose whether they want to live outside of water!)
Ah, I praise and bless the Lord that He is the God who chooses to save poor sinners who are hell-bent rebels against God.
On Mar 13, 2007, at 7:20 PM, Brainy wrote in reply:
Will God accept anyone who does not love Him? Is our love to Him as important as the legal ramifications of justification to Him? Do those who have not called upon the name of the only begotten Son of God, love Him? Can they even know Him?
Brainy
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Brainy
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Brainy Brian,
I am puzzled most of the time by your rhetorical interrogative questions, and I ask myself what have I written that provoke such questions.
Let me give my sandy thoughts to your 'rhetorical' questions - so put on goggles.
1. Will God accept anyone who does not love Him?
As I understand from the Bible, God's acceptance of a sinner - condemned, dead and alienated slave - begins in TIME by His free and sovereign work of effectually calling him personally to grace and salvation - by removing that condemnation through justification by His grace, by removing that spiritual deadness through regeneration, and by removing that alienation through adoption and bestowing the Holy Spirit to dwell in His child. God put His laws into their mind and write them in their hearts, Heb 8:10. I do expect such as born of God Himself will somehow love God from the heart no matter how ignorant he may be. HOWEVER, I do believe that the gospel ministry would enhanced that love for God in a mighty manner.
Nevertheless God ACCEPTED [simple past tense] a sinner while he was in enmity against Him and gave His only begotten Son. God the Father does scourge and chastise a loveless and cold-hearted child of His. The issue of acceptance with God is a settled matter once for all by God Himself... by His free and sovereign grace. Grace turns a rebel sinner into a child of God. The gospel ministry would make a disciple out of an ignorant child of God.
Nevertheless God ACCEPTED [simple past tense] a sinner while he was in enmity against Him and gave His only begotten Son. God the Father does scourge and chastise a loveless and cold-hearted child of His. The issue of acceptance with God is a settled matter once for all by God Himself... by His free and sovereign grace. Grace turns a rebel sinner into a child of God. The gospel ministry would make a disciple out of an ignorant child of God.
2. Is our love to Him as important as the legal ramifications of justification to Him?
Don't understand your question! What are the legal ramifications of justification? If you tell me what they are, and how important they are to God, then I may attempt to answer your question.
3. Do those who have not called upon the name of the only begotten Son of God, love Him?
Simple answer, NO. I hope this is the answer you wanted to hear. Why, do you expect me to say 'yes.' Their BEING sons of God is independent of and PRIOR to their calling upon the name of the only begotten Son of God. They were born sons of God on the basis of the life and death of the only begotten Son of God. The gospel ministry is to inform them of the truth concerning their Lord and Saviour --- that they may hear and believe Him and call upon Him. Without the gospel ministry they would have no knowledge of their Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. They would be deprived of the temporal salvation which the ministry of the word has been appointed for.
Ignorance is certainly no bliss... it deprives a child of God - destined and fitted for eternal salvation by God's free and sovereign grace - of so much temporal blessing while he lives here on this earth. 'Ignorance is, in fact, the mother of all bondage.'
Ignorance is certainly no bliss... it deprives a child of God - destined and fitted for eternal salvation by God's free and sovereign grace - of so much temporal blessing while he lives here on this earth. 'Ignorance is, in fact, the mother of all bondage.'
God does not care only for the eternal salvation of His elect. He cares for the temporal salvation of His elect here on earth too. That explains the command, "Go ye therefore , and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and lo, I am with you alway, even to the end of the world."
The command here has NOTHING to do with the eternal salvation of God's elect. The Triune God takes care of that all by Himself... Romans 8:28-29. The command here has to do with the temporal salvation of God's children - go and teach God's children that are found in all nations... in teaching and preaching God's children are made manifest by their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. These are to be baptized and gathered into NT churches; they are to be taught to observe the instruction of Christ here on earth as they trod through this world to their eternal home.
4. Can they even know Him?
Ordinarily, without the ministry of the word, GOD'S CHILDREN would have no knowledge of Christ. They are eternally saved by grace alone that they may know Christ... and be saved timely through the gospel ministry. "And this is life eternal, THAT - THAT -THAT they might thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou has sent."
They are saved by God's free grace in order that they may be brought to know Christ, their Redeemer. It is not the other way round - they are brought to know God in order that they mya be saved. Those who are not saved have no capability to know God and the Saviour He has sent.
"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."
To them that ARE SAVED, the gospel is the good news that inform and instruct them the truth of God's power in their salvation - that has taken place by God's free grace.
They are saved by God's free grace in order that they may be brought to know Christ, their Redeemer. It is not the other way round - they are brought to know God in order that they mya be saved. Those who are not saved have no capability to know God and the Saviour He has sent.
"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."
To them that ARE SAVED, the gospel is the good news that inform and instruct them the truth of God's power in their salvation - that has taken place by God's free grace.
Now tell me how many buckets of sand you will send over.
sing
Who would you want to do the choosing?
If God DID NOT already predestinate and choose to save and bring some people to heaven, then what would happen? If God did not foreknow, predestinate, call, justify and glorify any sinner, and instead, but leave the whole matter to sinners to decide, would any sinner ever decide to go to heaven, a place so hateful, and contrary to their sinful nature?
If God were to leave it to HELL DESERVING sinners, who are in enmity against Him, to choose and decide for themselves whether they would want to go to heaven or not, would any of them be found in heaven? Would anyone choose to be with Him?
(One might as well leave it to the fish to decide and choose whether they want to live outside of water!)
Ah, I praise and bless the Lord that He is the God who chooses to save poor sinners who are hell-bent rebels against God.
