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| What was counted unto Abraham for righteousness? |
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#justification
What
was counted unto Abraham for righteousness?
And
what does that mean?
Was
Abraham an unjustified man (not justified by God) before Gen 15:6?
Tell
us if you know the answers.
Thank
you most kindly.
Genesis
15:6
And
he [Abraham] believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
Romans
4:3
For
what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for
righteousness.
Gal
3:6
Even
as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
James
2:23
And
the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was
imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
p/s
I
do assume that you know the difference between the two:
-
accounting Abraham's faith to Abraham for righteousness
IS
NOT THE SAME AS
-
accounting Christ's righteousness to Abraham for his justification.
===========
Feston Konzani
Faith....he
believed (had in faith in/placed all his undivided trust in) God and it was
accounted to him for righteousness.....
sing
Feston So, in Gen 15:6, it was faith (Abraham's act of believing) that was
accounted to Abraham.
When
was Abraham justified by God. i.e. when did God account Christ's righteousness to
Abraham?
Feston
Sing, I'd like to believe that Gen 15 was way before Christ and way before the
law of Moses.
So, on account of Abraham believing God he was accredited with righteousness
which is not of the works of the law.
Christ's
righteousness was is/was the same righteousness which was accounted to him
because as it is written "Jesus Christ is the same, yesterday, today and
forever".
Sing
Feston, what's
the point of saying that Gen 15 was way before Christ and way before the law of
Moses?
That'
there is no righteousness of Christ to speak of because Christ has not executed
the work on the cross? That there is no justification before the cross? Tell us
what you are trying to say.
John
8:58 KJV — Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham
was, I am.
But
God's act of justifying the condemned unjust requires righteousness; sins
brought condemnation, righteousness is a prerequisite to reverse that
condemnation and secure justification.
Your
"Abraham was accredited WITH righteousness" and
the
Scriptures'
"...
it (something, what is it?) was accounted to Abraham FOR righteousness,"
they are
two entirely different things.
Beware
of soundbytes.
Feston
Sing, sure..... So you mean John 8:58 would mean that Abraham was justified
before the cross or after the cross?
Sing
FestonIn the covenant of redemption, each Person of the Triune God agreed to
do His part in the redemption of each elect at God's appointed and accepted
time.
The
second person of the Godhead, the eternal Word, as the Redeemer, would be made
flesh and accomplish the redemption for all the elect.
Before
the cross, God the Father justified each elect based on the righteousness that
Christ assuredly shall secure.
After
the cross, God the Father justified each elect based on the righteousness that
Christ HAS secured.
The
ground of justification, both before and after the cross, is the same; it's
based solely on the righteousness of Jesus alone.
Sins
brought condemnation and death; righteousness alone can undo that to secure
justification and life..
If
there is no justification before the cross, then there no life before the
cross; no accounting of Christ's righteousness, no life.
Romans 5:18 KJV — Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation [of death]; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Feston
Sing, are we then not on the same page? Or isn't that what I'd just said?
Sing
Feston, I understand you as saying that before the cross there is no
justification because Christ had not actually secured the righteousness by His
life of perfect and sinless obedience to all the laws of God; therefore, no
righteousness was available for the justification of condemned sinners.
Have
you answered the simple question: when was Abraham justified by God - before
Gen 15:6 or at Gen 15:6?
Thank you.
Feston
Sing, this question may end up being theologically exhaustive.
1.
Because it can be said that he was justified before Christ's death since the
lamb of God was slain before the foundation of the world.
2.
It can be said that he was justified after he believed as it is written in Gen 15:6.
Either
way, the fact still remains that 'He was justified by faith and not the works
of the law". If we can agree on this point alone then we'll have gone a
long way somewhere into some understanding of this otherwise exhaustive topic.
Would
you agree...?
Sing
Feston, If you have understood the subject, it takes a few sentences to state
the truth.
You
have misread Rev 13:8.
If
Abraham was not justified by God before Gen 15:6, then Abraham was still an
unjustified condemned man in Gen 12-14. That's the necessary conclusion.
I
often say, "believe what you will, but live with the necessary
implications of your beliefs."
Also,
there is an unbridgeable gulf between
your
justification by God and
your
justification by your faith.
Ask,
how does my faith justify me?
Ask, how did God justify me?
Feston
Sing, can you explain the difference?
Sing
Feston, The difference of what?
Feston
Sing, because what you have just said above is what I said earlier and you seemed
to argue that it could not have been simply that he believed and that his faith
was accounted to him as righteousness?
What am I missing? Please explain. Better still, let's take this up on WhatsApp. I already gave you my number. Please let me clearly see what I am missing in your argument.
Sing
Feston, You
said, "So
on the account of Abraham believing God he was accredited with righteousness
which is not of the works of the law.
Christ's
righteousness was is/was the same righteousness which was accounted to him
because as it is written "Jesus Christ is the same, yesterday,today and
forever".
-----------
You
said in Gen 15:6, the righteousness of Christ was accounted to Abraham. Am I
correct?
If
I am, then Abraham was justified by God at Gen 15:6. Then Abraham was still an
UNjustified man in Gen 12-14. What kind of a man do you see in Abraham when you
read Gen 12-14?
Gen
15:6 does not speak of the accounting of the righteousness of Christ to Abraham
for his justification. Gen 15:6 speaks of God accounting Abraham's faith to him
for righteousness. The two are worlds apart. Is it clear now?
How
did God justify you?
How
does your faith justify you?
Are these questions too deep?
Feston
Sing, yes.... So I said and that's according to Gen 15. He believed and it was
accounted to him as righteousness.
Sing
Feston What was accounted to Abraham for righteousness - his faith or the
righteousness of Christ? Which one did you say?
Feston
So
God accounting Abraham's faith to him (who is this him? ) Abraham or God
Sing
Feston, Who do you think?
Feston
Sing, okay I think this has now become a circular argument, don't you think?
Which
church do you go to?
Sing
Feston, I'm not arguing; I'm attempting to understand what you are saying
exactly... so I ask questions.
I
go to a little church in this town.
