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| “And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched Mark 9:43 |
Christ
warns His disciples: fear him who can destroy both their soul and body in hell
(γέεννα gehenna)!
Please
note that gehenna is distinct and different from the lake of fire (τὴν λίμνην τοῦ πυρός)
Matthew 10 - KJT
16
¶ Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore
wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
17
But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will
scourge you in their synagogues;
18
And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony
against them and the Gentiles...
26
Fear them not therefore...
28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but
rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
What
is Christ's warning?
What
and where is gehenna?
Who
is 'him' that is able to destroy both the soul and body of the disciples in
hell?
Why
ought the disciples to fear him?
What
happens when the disciples do not fear him, but rather fear men?
Does
this warning have to do with the destruction in 70 AD?
Or
this warning about temporal destruction during the intermediate state between
physical death and resurrection to eternal glory?
I would appreciate your help with those questions.
Thanks.
==========
PJ
Walters
I
have similar questions, too. May I share this?
Johnny
Is
gehenna the literal place where the rich man dwelled, or was that parable a
complete allegory, to show that the prophets and Jesus' teaching are
sufficient, without extraordinary, physical events? If literal, was the rich
man's ultimate destination, hell? If not, then what action of God, mercy, love,
to change the rich man's spirit, into one that God can be with, perhaps
eternally in heaven? If so, is there a distinction without a difference between Gehenna and hell?
Charles
Specifically,
Gehenna is a real place outside the city of Jerusalem. It certainly does not
illustrate the eternal lake of fire. It is a place where something utterly
useless is discarded into an everburning, smouldering rubbish fire. A viper
would be thrown into this smouldering fire where it would twist and squirm,
unable to escape. A common snake would be thrown into the hay where it would
eat rats and rodents.
It is not about correction, purging or penitence but disposing of things useless. However, not in an eternal destruction or ultimate sense.
[Penny Karn has deleted all her comments]
Sing
Penny
Karn, context precludes that notion.
When
does a man enter eternity: at his death or the general resurrection?
Charles
I
believe it is about temporal destruction between death and resurrection to
eternal glory?
Johnny,
you said, "...then what action of God, mercy, love, to change the rich
man's spirit, into one that God can be with, perhaps eternally in heaven."
the Catholics have already solved that with 'Purgatory'! There is no purging
beyond the grave!
I reject the idea that Jesus gave a parable about the beggar and the rich man. The people can be fictional, if I may surmise, but the place is real, and Jesus is telling us that there will be children of Abraham in both places. No, it is not allegorical but inclusive of the Apostles’ teaching!
Sing
Luke
16: 27
Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my
father’s house: 28
For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come
into this place of torment.
==========
That
place of torment can be avoided. So it cannot be the eternal lake of fire!
He
called Abraham 'father' three times!
A man's place in the eternal lake of fire is determined solely by the passing over, the preterition, non-election to eternal salvation.
Re 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Charles
Sing,
it is so real and I am so excited about dying. To live is Christ but oh to
die...I want to experience divine justice.. I've never seen it here on
earth...so much injustice. Nobody ever listens to me here (oh there are a
scattered few), but there people listen and what we say is important. I live
every day here struggling to be heard...nobody pays me any attention. There is
a sword that divides me from the ones I love. They don't listen. My Mother,
Father, brother, wife and daughters don't hear me. I struggle with feeling
insane, my actions are bordering on insanity. I will stand in front of a large
institution this morn before going to work, pacing in front of the place like a
wild man, insane. Who do you know who does this. I am an embarrassment to my
wife and daughters.
I
know where I am going!!! It is more real than this earth with its fading splendour!
Charles
Inheriting
the kingdom and going to heaven are not the same thing!
[Michael
Lamb deleted his comments!]
Sing
Michael
Lamb, do you understand what 'LIKEWISE' means? So what perishing is spoken of? You
need to go BEYOND sound byte. Sound
byte does not edify.
Rightly
dividing the word of truth does.
Charles
That
is why I don't paste/quote scripture! Seems that scripture is a superstitious
amulet that brings good luck!!!
Johnny
Would
the soul or person (both died, according to the story of Rich Man Poor Man), so
better to say spiritual being, of the person tormented in Hades, Gehenna, the
place where a gulf separates two places, visible to each, BE IN HELL
ultimately, or is it not known. As to eternity, that is a concept beyond
physical, so we, in the physical, are certainly in spiritual eternity, yet as
brief as the blowing wind. In that sense, we are now in eternity, both our
souls, spirits, bodies, all whatevers.
Sing
Penny
Karn said, "The question should be... when does a man have eternal life???
After he has died & been resurrected... or after he believes on the Lord
Jesus Christ?
=========
Your
question: When does a man have eternal life?
My
question: When does a man enter eternity?
They
are different questions, and both are legitimate.
Your
question requires this answer: 'When God effectually calls that man out of his
native state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation.'
Is
an effectually called man with eternal life still in time, or has he entered
eternity?
Sing
Michael
Lamb, if you will not answer questions, please cease commenting. A privilege to
comment here is coupled with the obligation to respond to questions with
respect to the comments made.
That's
the rule of engagement here.
A
liar boasts, "We all have repent and overcome all sin."
The
Bible says, "8¶ If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and
the truth is not in us. 9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to
cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in
us.
Sing
Michael
Lamb, You quoted,
Luke 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
I
asked, "Do you understand what 'LIKEWISE' means? So what perishing is
spoken of?
I
have said, your privilege to make comments here REQUIRES of you the duty to
answer legitimate questions concerning your comments. If you don't abide by
this rule, you will lose the privilege. Understood?
So, please answer the question before you go blah blah blah some more! Thanks.
Charles
Michael,
if the child of God won't repent, he will perish in hades. If the unregenerate
won't repent, there will be no results. It matters nothing for him to repent.
Robert
Sing,
I don't think it is saying destroy YOUR souls, it is just saying souls, I don't
think it is a threat to disciples, but a reminder of who the disciples serve.
Also, when the rich man calls Abraham father, he could be mistaken, as the Jews
are now just as our Lord said, you think you have Abraham to your father, see
John 8
Charles
He
was not just mistaken, but mistaken three times; some people never learn!
Sing
That's
a silly, stupid lamb indeed - afflicted with the disease of sound-byte.
Here
is the text:
13:1
¶ There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose
blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
2
And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were
sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
3 I
tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
4
Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye
that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
5 I
tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
So tell me, what is the perishing spoken of, and what is the LIKEWISE perishing spoken of?
Robert
Sing, your text is clearly a timely perishing of the flesh, not eternal, but your
original text was not one you quoted last, so question 1: Christ is not warning
but reminding who they serve. As I said before, the text says souls, not your
souls.
Sing
Robert, is the period between death and resurrection to eternal glory considered
timely or eternal?
@ “as
I said before, the text says souls, not your souls”
- are
you suggesting that the solemn warning of Christ has no relevance to the
disciples then?
Robert
Since
the body is still in the ground and not raised, and we are still in time, time
is a measurement of eternity which is why the sun and moon where placed in the
heaven. when we arrive at home there will be time no more as there will be no
more sun and all the elements shall be burned up and a new heaven and a new
earth will be. Our spirits are eternal now as we have been given eternal life
our bodies will die and be raised up a new glorified spiritual body, then we
enter eternity a complete being. As far as the Word of Christ having no
relevance that would be insane but the relevance may simply a reminder as to
whom they serve as an encouragement and not a warning
Sing
Robert
@ 'Time is a measurement of eternity...'
Could
you please explain what that means?
Are
you now in time or in eternity?
And
when you breathe your last, will you enter eternity, OR will you still remain
in time until you are resurrected into the state of eternity?
Robert
Bro
Sing, eternity goes from everlasting to everlasting. we can not comprehend
eternity as God knows it. Time is set in eternity like a segment on a line is
set in an infinite ray in geometrical terms. Eternity was present before God
set the sun and moons for signs and seasons and for days and years for our sake.
God needs not time. As to whether I am in time or eternity, I am in both I was
given eternal life before the world began, that was before time. I understood
that I had eternal life when I believed the Gospel that happened in time. The
Sun and Moon are God’s clock to measure days, which are only real to us in time,
not to God. He dwells in eternity and always has. The sun and moon are like the
clock on your wall, it just measure the passing of moments of eternity. Time
only exists for us here on earth, so when I die, I leave time and only exist in
eternity. I will be in my spirit with the Lord who dwells in eternity. As we
have two natures, we dwell in time and eternity. time will end, but we go on a
segment on a line has dots; it is just a way of measuring a part of infinity.
Robert
Back
to the original questions, I re-read and am sure of encouragement to the 11 but
one was Judas the warning you see may have been for him. All disciples are not
in Christ, as evidenced by John 6:66 (oh no the number of man). Also just a
note on places having different names in scripture like lake of fire and
Gehenna, they could be the same place ie: Salem, Jerusalem, City of David, and
Sodom and Egypt are the same place with different names for different reasons. Bro
Sing I have noticed you are very interested in the possibility of a temporal
judgment between death and the resurrection, What would be the purpose of that
from God's perspective given that we all are as an unclean thing and our
righteousness are as filthy rags and when resurrection happens we shall be made
perfect in every way? it is not that we must learn here to take to heaven. We
must be changed! Timely judgments from God are to correct our walk here, not to
perfect us for eternity. He does not punish out of wrath but as a Father who
loves His children. The Apostle Paul said he was the chief of sinners, but also
said he knew it was far better to depart and to be with the Lord. Is our Lord
still in Hell? No, there is now no condemnation to those who are in Christ
Jesus. For that I am very Happy or blessed (Matt 5) Blessed are they that
hunger and thirst after righteousness, for they shall be filled. Amen and Amen,
I hope you do not look to yourself for justification but only to Christ Jesus.
I like your great desire to know the truth but I also knew a man many years ago
who got so far off but splitting individual words, etc, he really, I think, did
great harm to God's children. I am a nobody so whatever I say it comes without
any training or schooling just what I think I have learned these last 23 years
and each day goes by I don't get better or more acceptable I get worse I see
things about myself I hate and am powerless to change all I can do is suppress
by grace.
Robert
Some
would say I am a reprobate deceived threefold child of hell, but I am what I am
by the grace of God. I stopped trying to figure out who was or was not born of
the spirit many years ago. When I look to me I see darkness when I look to Him
I see light I hope some reflects off me like the sun and moon the moon being
the church
Robert
I
know you know these things I just wanted to help and remind all of us who read
your posts as some have a works self justifying almost anti-Christ feel I pray
that those who examine themselves for assurance will simply look to Christ as
self examiners as I once was always find fault with others may our Father be
gracious.
Robert
I
did not mean your posts have that feel, but some of the comments, sorry I am
stupid
Sing
Give
me 5 weeks to read and digest your comments! Need not to worry... not the
slightest trace of work justification here with me!
Johnny
Do
you, Sing, consider the possibility of dwelling in gehenna, then being with
God forever in heaven; or, conversely, being in Abraham's bosom or equivalent
(the other side of the gulf affixed so those may not move from one area to
another), but then spend eternity in the lake of fire? If not, why the
distinction, as I believe there is, a temporary place before final judgment? If
so, under what conditions, spiritually, may one go from the bad to the good, or
good to the bad?.
Sing
Good
questions. My present concern is the honest interpretation of the text... and
not the practical implications of the truth yet. Get the truth right, and the
practical implications will come naturally. Is there such a temporal place of
chastisement between death and resurrection to eternal glory? That needs to be
settled first.
Johnny
I
would agree that the place of holding (purgatory, if you will), according to
Jesus' story of the rich man and poor man, is literally torture or peace, and
that it is not conditioned on anything said afterwards, as Jesus stated
"they have the prophets, if they will not listen to them, they would not
listen to the dead returning from torment" (paraphrased). And, it is not
the final judgment, though an indication, such that no man can change the
consequence of the lives. If that's where you are going. At least that is how I
have been taught, and consider truth, from those passages.
Sing
One's
eternal destiny is determined SOLELY, WHOLLY, COMPLETELY, EXCLUSIVELY by the
finished work of Jesus Christ. Let that be stated as clearly as possible.
I
am just taking SERIOUSLY Christ's warning to His disciples about avoiding hell!
There is a hell to be avoided by His disciples. And please let it be stated
VERY PLAINLY tell: hell and the lake of fire are DISTINCT.
Robert
A temporal place of chastisement between death and the resurrection? Sing, I
guess we will all end up there. I will see Peter there too, he denied the Lord.
I am sometimes fearful of men. Sing I jest, I also have wondered about the rich
man and Lazarus and the difference between Hell, which sometimes is just the
grave and Gehenna, which I think was a pit of burning refuse outside of
Jerusalem. In the Old Testament, it is said that the dead go to a place of
silence. So I, as with you, just don't know what the story is about, but I do
know there is no judgment, chastisement or anything like that between death and
the resurrection for the perfectly redeemed child of grace. Brother, I am
thankful for your quest for truth and can understand you puzzling about this
question. Did Dr. Gill comment on this? I don't have any commentaries or I
would check for you.
Robert
I
am truly an idiot. I meant to say an early death or hell, as being the grave is
our warning to obey or get sick and even die, see 1 Cor 11:30
Sing
Robert
Cook, "I will see Peter there too; he denied the Lord "
======
Mt
26:75 And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the
cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.
Lu
22:62 And Peter went out, and wept bitterly.
Sing
Read
this, and tell me whether there is a distinction.
Rev
20:13
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up
the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their
works.
14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake
of fire.
Christ
warned the disciples of the danger of ending up in hell, but NEVER of their
danger of ending up in the lake of fire. Why???
I'm
probing and learning. Thanks for your interest.
First
off, hell is temporal.
The
lake of fire is eternal.
Robert
Penny,
yes, we will be judged according to our works and they will be found as perfect
as Christ's are because all the He is we are in Him!! Col, 2:10 Amen.
Sing
Heb 9:27 “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the
judgment.”
When a child of God dies, he shall be judged according to his works, to
determine his place during the intermediate state – whether paradise or hell.
During the great judgement at Christ’s second coming, the judgement shall be
according to whether one’s name is in the Book of Life, to determine one’s
eternal destiny: heaven or the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 “And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast
into the lake of fire.”
Robert
Yes,
Penny, see Hebrews 10:14, we are perfected forever in Christ.
Penny,
I think Rev 20:12. 15 We all stand to be judged, but we who were chosen are
found perfect in Him according to our works.
Sing
The
judgment after death and the great judgment at the general resurrection are
different and distinct. You have confounded them and rendered the reality of
temporal hell irrelevant to God’s children. Christ WASTED His breath on all His
solemn warnings to His own disciples.
Mark 9
43 “And
if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life
maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall
be quenched:
45 And
if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into
life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall
be quenched.
HELL CAN BE AVOIDED; the disciples are exhorted to take drastic measures to deal with sins to avoid the temporal hell during the intermediate state.
Robert
When
God judged Christ, we were set free; there is nothing required of us, not even
faith, we don't have faith before the new birth. God is just and the Justifier.
Sing
We were set free from the eternal consequences of sins – the lake of fire. That’s
what Christ saved His people from: the eternal separation from God, the second
death!
Rev 20:14 “And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the
second death.”
Robert
Amen
