Since God is love... why should He punish

 

A kind soul inquired:
My former varsity classmate, a Roman Catholic, opined, "Since God is love, and our Lord came to save the whole world; why should He punish some of His creatures to hell?"

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1 John 4:16 KJT
And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

(Please note the distinction between hell/paradise in the intermediate state and the lake of fire/heaven in the eternal state.)

I will address your classmate thus:

Every person has some opinions of God, i.e. the God of the Bible. To opine that God is love is a good start. He loves indeed. "For God SO loved..."

This is an acknowledgement and confession with grave and serious implications, too. What is hell but God’s love spurned and slighted; paradise is God’s love embraced and reciprocated.

I love reminding people that it is not unreasonable to let God speak for Himself if we are to know Him rightly and to represent Him faithfully/truthfully; otherwise, we will run afoul of His 1st and 3rd Commandments:

First Commandment: “Thou shalt have no other gods before me” – a god of our own imagination is having another god before the God who has spoken in the Bible.

Third Commandment: “Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.” 

Misrepresenting the LORD God is simply taking His thrice-holy name in vain, with the solemn warning. Any God-fearing man will be careful in representing the LORD God faithfully and truthfully.

Also, remember the solemn rebuke recorded here: 
Job 42:7 And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.
8 Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job.

Surely, a good Roman Catholic like you will agree with this basic principle; if you are to be known and represented truly, then you yourself must be the source of information about yourself and not some opinions of others about you. That being so, we ought to let God speak for Himself and His love expressed in His works of creation, providence, and redemption. He has spoken plainly in the Holy Scriptures.

Yes, the LORD God so loved... He gave Adam and his woman- of whom Adam said, “This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called woman, because she was taken out of Man” - a paradise, the garden of Eden.

Yes, the LORD God so loved… He not only made Adam and his woman perfect and upright, thus very good, but He also put them in the universe that is described as “very good” – “And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.”

Yes, the LORD God so loved… He did not leave Adam and his wife to themselves after they had chosen to listen to the devil, in broad daylight rebellion against the LORD God’s plain and clear command, and damned themselves. He not only cursed the devil through the promise of the Seed of the Woman, He also provided salvation for them – “Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.” The coats of skins were obtained through the blood sacrifices of innocent animals, foreshadowing the promised Lamb of God, the Seed of the Woman who will crush the serpent’s head…

You probably can recite John 3:16 - God so loved that He gave us His only begotten Son. Jesus said that He came to save those whom God has given unto Him. Those who end up in hell are those who have spurned and slighted the Saviour that God has so lovingly provided for them; they despised and scorned the love of God.

Yes, the LORD God so loved… you are right in your opinion, God is love. But men are hateful against Him; they spurn and slight His love. And I find it perverse that you would find fault with God that they end up in hell. Put your hand to your heart, and ask yourself, have you represented the LORD God of the Bible fairly. Remember the First and the Third Commandments.

A man who finds fault with the LORD God is a wicked and evil man, especially when he is blind to man’s own wickedness and evil in his rebellion against his Creator and God.

Think about these, and may the LORD GOD give you understanding.

Why is the Hebrew word believed in Gen 15:6 a hiphil?

why is the Hebrew word believed in Gen 15:6 a hiphil?

                                                              

Sir, why is the Hebrew word believed in Gen 15:6 a hiphil?

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No idea at all. I'm hardly proficient in biblical Hebrew. I use language tools to aid me. I will just stick to the translation by competent linguists, logicians, and god-fearing men.

Genesis 15 KJT
4 ¶And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6 ¶And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Verses 4-5 are a two-verse paragraph.
Verse 6 is a one-verse paragraph.

The LORD made a momentous promise to Abraham, "he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir... So shall thy seed be."  Out of this SEED (singular - referring to Christ), all nations shall be blessed, and Abraham's spiritual descendants shall be as numerous as the stars in space.

Galatians 3:16 KJT — "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ."

Abraham believed in the Promised Seed. His faith was counted to him for righteousness - THAT IS, the LORD blessed Abraham's act of believing to experience the blessedness of his righteous standing before the LORD. This is a practical/experiential justification.

Romans 4
1 ¶What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? [i.e. what was Abraham's experience?]
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. [i.e works of ceremonial laws]
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. [i.e. faith in Christ  versus the observation of ceremonial laws in experiential justification.]

Apostle Paul demonstrated that Abraham experienced the blessedness of his justified state through faith in Jesus Christ and NOT through the observation of some ceremonial laws, as the perverse Judaizers insisted.

Too many  - both Calvinists, Arminians, and Calvinians - mindlessly read verse 6 as the time when the righteousness of Christ was accounted to Abraham for his justification because he believed.

They see v6 as the specific time Abraham was justified by the LORD, and He justified Abraham because Abraham believed in the promised Seed.

This stupid (lacking common sense) idea NECESSARILY IMPLIES that before Gen 15:6, Abraham was still an unjustified man before God. An unjustified man is still a man in his native state, under condemnation and death.

Justification by Christ's righteousness is the justification of life, Romans 5:18.

What do you read and see in Gen 12-14 - was kind of man was Abraham?

The LORD had freely justified Abram when he was still in the Ur of the Chaldeans. That's why he could obey the Lord when he was called to leave his homeland, etc.

Genesis 12:1 KJT — Now the LORD HAD said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee.

Note  the word "HAD."
An unjustified Abram, still in his native state of sin and condemnation, can possibly obey the LORD's call to leave the Ur of the Chaldeans. Abram was already freely justified by the LORD before he was called to leave his homeland.  

I hope this helps.

So to walk even as he walked. — 1 John 2:6

So to walk even as he walked. — 1 John 2:6

Why should Christians imitate Christ?

1. They should do it for their own sakes.
If they desire to be in a healthy state of soul—if they would escape the sickness of sin, and enjoy the vigour of growing grace, let Jesus be their model. For their own happiness’ sake, if they would drink wine on the lees, well refined; if they would enjoy holy and happy communion with Jesus; if they would be lifted up above the cares and troubles of this world, let them walk even as he walked. There is nothing which can so assist you to walk towards heaven with good speed, as wearing the image of Jesus on your heart to rule all its motions. It is when, by the power of the Holy Spirit, you are enabled to walk with Jesus in his very footsteps, that you are most happy, and most known to be the sons of God. Peter* afar off is both unsafe and uneasy.

2. Next, for religion’s sake, strive to be like Jesus.
Ah! poor religion, thou hast been sorely shot at by cruel foes, but thou hast not been wounded one-half so dangerously by thy foes as by thy friends. Who made those wounds in the fair hand of Godliness? The professor who used the dagger of hypocrisy. The man who with pretences, enters the fold, being nought but a wolf in sheep’s clothing, worries the flock more than the lion outside. There is no weapon half so deadly as a Judas-kiss. Inconsistent professors injure the gospel more than the sneering critic or the infidel.

3. But, especially for Christ’s own sake, imitate his example.
Christian, lovest thou thy Saviour? Is his name precious to thee? Is his cause dear to thee? Wouldst thou see the kingdoms of the world become his? Is it thy desire that he should be glorified? Art thou longing that souls should be won to him? If so, imitate Jesus; be an “epistle of Christ, known and read of all men.”

C.H.Spurgeon

*Peter : a verb, decrease or fade gradually before coming to an end.

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For your own sake,

For the religion's sake, and

For Christ's own sake.

For your own sake, i.e selfishness is a potent motivator; it works powerfully in all areas of life, BUT it's quite impotent when it comes to discipleship.

If selfishness, i.e. for your own sake, does not move you to earnestly pursue your discipleship for your own spiritual wellbeing and usefulness, nothing else would. No amount of nagging, cajoling, exhortation, admonition, rebuke, threats, etc, can move you.

It is better to enter into life than go into hell!

“And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off:
it is better for thee to enter into life maimed,
than having two hands to go into hell,
into the fire that never shall be quenched
Mark 9:43

 

Christ warns His disciples: fear him who can destroy both their soul and body in hell (γέεννα gehenna)!

Please note that gehenna is distinct and different from the lake of fire (τὴν λίμνην τοῦ πυρός)

Matthew 10 - KJT
16 ¶ Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles...
26 Fear them not therefore...
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

What is Christ's warning?
What and where is gehenna?
Who is 'him' that is able to destroy both the soul and body of the disciples in hell?
Why ought the disciples to fear him?
What happens when the disciples do not fear him, but rather fear men?
Does this warning have to do with the destruction in 70 AD?

Or this warning about temporal destruction during the intermediate state between physical death and resurrection to eternal glory?

I would appreciate your help with those questions. Thanks.
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PJ Walters
I have similar questions, too. May I share this?

Johnny
Is gehenna the literal place where the rich man dwelled, or was that parable a complete allegory, to show that the prophets and Jesus' teaching are sufficient, without extraordinary, physical events? If literal, was the rich man's ultimate destination, hell? If not, then what action of God, mercy, love, to change the rich man's spirit, into one that God can be with, perhaps eternally in heaven? If so, is there a distinction without a difference between Gehenna and hell?

Charles
Specifically, Gehenna is a real place outside the city of Jerusalem. It certainly does not illustrate the eternal lake of fire. It is a place where something utterly useless is discarded into an everburning, smouldering rubbish fire. A viper would be thrown into this smouldering fire where it would twist and squirm, unable to escape. A common snake would be thrown into the hay where it would eat rats and rodents.

It is not about correction, purging or penitence but disposing of things useless. However, not in an eternal destruction or ultimate sense.

[Penny Karn has deleted all her comments]

Sing
Penny Karn, context precludes that notion.
When does a man enter eternity: at his death or the general resurrection?

Charles
I believe it is about temporal destruction between death and resurrection to eternal glory?

Johnny, you said, "...then what action of God, mercy, love, to change the rich man's spirit, into one that God can be with, perhaps eternally in heaven." the Catholics have already solved that with 'Purgatory'! There is no purging beyond the grave!

I reject the idea that Jesus gave a parable about the beggar and the rich man. The people can be fictional, if I may surmise, but the place is real, and Jesus is telling us that there will be children of Abraham in both places. No, it is not allegorical but inclusive of the Apostles’ teaching!

Sing
Luke 16: 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
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That place of torment can be avoided. So it cannot be the eternal lake of fire!
He called Abraham 'father' three times!

A man's place in the eternal lake of fire is determined solely by the passing over, the preterition, non-election to eternal salvation.

Re 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Charles 
Sing, it is so real and I am so excited about dying. To live is Christ but oh to die...I want to experience divine justice.. I've never seen it here on earth...so much injustice. Nobody ever listens to me here (oh there are a scattered few), but there people listen and what we say is important. I live every day here struggling to be heard...nobody pays me any attention. There is a sword that divides me from the ones I love. They don't listen. My Mother, Father, brother, wife and daughters don't hear me. I struggle with feeling insane, my actions are bordering on insanity. I will stand in front of a large institution this morn before going to work, pacing in front of the place like a wild man, insane. Who do you know who does this. I am an embarrassment to my wife and daughters.

I know where I am going!!! It is more real than this earth with its fading splendour!

Charles 
Inheriting the kingdom and going to heaven are not the same thing!

[Michael Lamb deleted his comments!]
Sing
Michael Lamb, do you understand what 'LIKEWISE' means? So what perishing is spoken of? You need to go BEYOND sound byte. Sound byte does not edify.
Rightly dividing the word of truth does.

Charles
That is why I don't paste/quote scripture! Seems that scripture is a superstitious amulet that brings good luck!!!

Johnny
Would the soul or person (both died, according to the story of Rich Man Poor Man), so better to say spiritual being, of the person tormented in Hades, Gehenna, the place where a gulf separates two places, visible to each, BE IN HELL ultimately, or is it not known. As to eternity, that is a concept beyond physical, so we, in the physical, are certainly in spiritual eternity, yet as brief as the blowing wind. In that sense, we are now in eternity, both our souls, spirits, bodies, all whatevers.

Sing
Penny Karn said, "The question should be... when does a man have eternal life??? After he has died & been resurrected... or after he believes on the Lord Jesus Christ?
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Your question: When does a man have eternal life?
My question: When does a man enter eternity?

They are different questions, and both are legitimate.

Your question requires this answer: 'When God effectually calls that man out of his native state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation.'
Is an effectually called man with eternal life still in time, or has he entered eternity?

Sing
Michael Lamb, if you will not answer questions, please cease commenting. A privilege to comment here is coupled with the obligation to respond to questions with respect to the comments made.

That's the rule of engagement here.
A liar boasts, "We all have repent and overcome all sin."
The Bible says, "8¶ If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Sing
Michael Lamb, You quoted,
Luke 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
I asked, "Do you understand what 'LIKEWISE' means? So what perishing is spoken of?

I have said, your privilege to make comments here REQUIRES of you the duty to answer legitimate questions concerning your comments. If you don't abide by this rule, you will lose the privilege. Understood?

So, please answer the question before you go blah blah blah some more! Thanks.

Charles
Michael, if the child of God won't repent, he will perish in hades. If the unregenerate won't repent, there will be no results. It matters nothing for him to repent.

Robert
Sing, I don't think it is saying destroy YOUR souls, it is just saying souls, I don't think it is a threat to disciples, but a reminder of who the disciples serve. Also, when the rich man calls Abraham father, he could be mistaken, as the Jews are now just as our Lord said, you think you have Abraham to your father, see John 8

Charles
He was not just mistaken, but mistaken three times; some people never learn!

Sing
That's a silly, stupid lamb indeed - afflicted with the disease of sound-byte.
Here is the text:
13:1 ¶ There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

So tell me, what is the perishing spoken of, and what is the LIKEWISE perishing spoken of?

Robert
Sing, your text is clearly a timely perishing of the flesh, not eternal, but your original text was not one you quoted last, so question 1: Christ is not warning but reminding who they serve. As I said before, the text says souls, not your souls.

Sing
Robert, is the period between death and resurrection to eternal glory considered timely or eternal?
@ “as I said before, the text says souls, not your souls”
- are you suggesting that the solemn warning of Christ has no relevance to the disciples then?

Robert
Since the body is still in the ground and not raised, and we are still in time, time is a measurement of eternity which is why the sun and moon where placed in the heaven. when we arrive at home there will be time no more as there will be no more sun and all the elements shall be burned up and a new heaven and a new earth will be. Our spirits are eternal now as we have been given eternal life our bodies will die and be raised up a new glorified spiritual body, then we enter eternity a complete being. As far as the Word of Christ having no relevance that would be insane but the relevance may simply a reminder as to whom they serve as an encouragement and not a warning

Sing
Robert @ 'Time is a measurement of eternity...'
Could you please explain what that means?
Are you now in time or in eternity?
And when you breathe your last, will you enter eternity, OR will you still remain in time until you are resurrected into the state of eternity?

Robert
Bro Sing, eternity goes from everlasting to everlasting. we can not comprehend eternity as God knows it. Time is set in eternity like a segment on a line is set in an infinite ray in geometrical terms. Eternity was present before God set the sun and moons for signs and seasons and for days and years for our sake. God needs not time. As to whether I am in time or eternity, I am in both I was given eternal life before the world began, that was before time. I understood that I had eternal life when I believed the Gospel that happened in time. The Sun and Moon are God’s clock to measure days, which are only real to us in time, not to God. He dwells in eternity and always has. The sun and moon are like the clock on your wall, it just measure the passing of moments of eternity. Time only exists for us here on earth, so when I die, I leave time and only exist in eternity. I will be in my spirit with the Lord who dwells in eternity. As we have two natures, we dwell in time and eternity. time will end, but we go on a segment on a line has dots; it is just a way of measuring a part of infinity.

Robert
Back to the original questions, I re-read and am sure of encouragement to the 11 but one was Judas the warning you see may have been for him. All disciples are not in Christ, as evidenced by John 6:66 (oh no the number of man). Also just a note on places having different names in scripture like lake of fire and Gehenna, they could be the same place ie: Salem, Jerusalem, City of David, and Sodom and Egypt are the same place with different names for different reasons. Bro Sing I have noticed you are very interested in the possibility of a temporal judgment between death and the resurrection, What would be the purpose of that from God's perspective given that we all are as an unclean thing and our righteousness are as filthy rags and when resurrection happens we shall be made perfect in every way? it is not that we must learn here to take to heaven. We must be changed! Timely judgments from God are to correct our walk here, not to perfect us for eternity. He does not punish out of wrath but as a Father who loves His children. The Apostle Paul said he was the chief of sinners, but also said he knew it was far better to depart and to be with the Lord. Is our Lord still in Hell? No, there is now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. For that I am very Happy or blessed (Matt 5) Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after righteousness, for they shall be filled. Amen and Amen, I hope you do not look to yourself for justification but only to Christ Jesus. I like your great desire to know the truth but I also knew a man many years ago who got so far off but splitting individual words, etc, he really, I think, did great harm to God's children. I am a nobody so whatever I say it comes without any training or schooling just what I think I have learned these last 23 years and each day goes by I don't get better or more acceptable I get worse I see things about myself I hate and am powerless to change all I can do is suppress by grace.

Robert
Some would say I am a reprobate deceived threefold child of hell, but I am what I am by the grace of God. I stopped trying to figure out who was or was not born of the spirit many years ago. When I look to me I see darkness when I look to Him I see light I hope some reflects off me like the sun and moon the moon being the church

Robert
I know you know these things I just wanted to help and remind all of us who read your posts as some have a works self justifying almost anti-Christ feel I pray that those who examine themselves for assurance will simply look to Christ as self examiners as I once was always find fault with others may our Father be gracious.

Robert
I did not mean your posts have that feel, but some of the comments, sorry I am stupid

Sing
Give me 5 weeks to read and digest your comments! Need not to worry... not the slightest trace of work justification here with me!

Johnny
Do you, Sing, consider the possibility of dwelling in gehenna, then being with God forever in heaven; or, conversely, being in Abraham's bosom or equivalent (the other side of the gulf affixed so those may not move from one area to another), but then spend eternity in the lake of fire? If not, why the distinction, as I believe there is, a temporary place before final judgment? If so, under what conditions, spiritually, may one go from the bad to the good, or good to the bad?.

Sing
Good questions. My present concern is the honest interpretation of the text... and not the practical implications of the truth yet. Get the truth right, and the practical implications will come naturally. Is there such a temporal place of chastisement between death and resurrection to eternal glory? That needs to be settled first.

Johnny
I would agree that the place of holding (purgatory, if you will), according to Jesus' story of the rich man and poor man, is literally torture or peace, and that it is not conditioned on anything said afterwards, as Jesus stated "they have the prophets, if they will not listen to them, they would not listen to the dead returning from torment" (paraphrased). And, it is not the final judgment, though an indication, such that no man can change the consequence of the lives. If that's where you are going. At least that is how I have been taught, and consider truth, from those passages.

Sing
One's eternal destiny is determined SOLELY, WHOLLY, COMPLETELY, EXCLUSIVELY by the finished work of Jesus Christ. Let that be stated as clearly as possible.

I am just taking SERIOUSLY Christ's warning to His disciples about avoiding hell! There is a hell to be avoided by His disciples. And please let it be stated VERY PLAINLY tell: hell and the lake of fire are DISTINCT.

Robert
A temporal place of chastisement between death and the resurrection? Sing, I guess we will all end up there. I will see Peter there too, he denied the Lord. I am sometimes fearful of men. Sing I jest, I also have wondered about the rich man and Lazarus and the difference between Hell, which sometimes is just the grave and Gehenna, which I think was a pit of burning refuse outside of Jerusalem. In the Old Testament, it is said that the dead go to a place of silence. So I, as with you, just don't know what the story is about, but I do know there is no judgment, chastisement or anything like that between death and the resurrection for the perfectly redeemed child of grace. Brother, I am thankful for your quest for truth and can understand you puzzling about this question. Did Dr. Gill comment on this? I don't have any commentaries or I would check for you.

Robert
I am truly an idiot. I meant to say an early death or hell, as being the grave is our warning to obey or get sick and even die, see 1 Cor 11:30

Sing
Robert Cook, "I will see Peter there too; he denied the Lord "
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Mt 26:75 And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.
Lu 22:62 And Peter went out, and wept bitterly.

Sing
Read this, and tell me whether there is a distinction.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Christ warned the disciples of the danger of ending up in hell, but NEVER of their danger of ending up in the lake of fire. Why???
I'm probing and learning. Thanks for your interest.
First off, hell is temporal.
The lake of fire is eternal.

Robert
Penny, yes, we will be judged according to our works and they will be found as perfect as Christ's are because all the He is we are in Him!! Col, 2:10 Amen.

Sing
Heb 9:27 “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.”

When a child of God dies, he shall be judged according to his works, to determine his place during the intermediate state – whether paradise or hell.

During the great judgement at Christ’s second coming, the judgement shall be according to whether one’s name is in the Book of Life, to determine one’s eternal destiny: heaven or the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 “And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”

Robert
Yes, Penny, see Hebrews 10:14, we are perfected forever in Christ.
Penny, I think Rev 20:12. 15 We all stand to be judged, but we who were chosen are found perfect in Him according to our works.

Sing
The judgment after death and the great judgment at the general resurrection are different and distinct. You have confounded them and rendered the reality of temporal hell irrelevant to God’s children. Christ WASTED His breath on all His solemn warnings to His own disciples.

Mark 9
43 “And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched.

HELL CAN BE AVOIDED; the disciples are exhorted to take drastic measures to deal with sins to avoid the temporal hell during the intermediate state. 

Robert
When God judged Christ, we were set free; there is nothing required of us, not even faith, we don't have faith before the new birth. God is just and the Justifier.

Sing
We were set free from the eternal consequences of sins – the lake of fire. That’s what Christ saved His people from: the eternal separation from God, the second death!
Rev 20:14 “And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.” 

Robert
Amen

 

 

Beware, the Devil makes to Road to Hell so Easy

How does the devil make the road that leads to hell attractive to Christians? If we don't know, we may be on that road happily!

With great subtlety, he makes hell completely irrelevant to their minds. How?

The single most attractive idea that is popular but a subtle lie is that he makes them believe that no Christian shall ever go to hell; they also gladly claim, "Jesus has died and suffered to save us from hell."

The devil has blinded them to the distinction between hell in the intermediate state (between death and the general resurrection at the end of time) and the lake of fire in the eternal state.

Consider the following:

Undeniable Fact 1: Hell and the lake of fire are distinct; the former is temporary, the latter is eternal.

Revelation 20:14 KJT — And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Undeniable Fact 2: Christ solemnly warned His own disciples to take drastic measures against personal sins to avoid being cast into hell:

Matthew 5:29 KJT — And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. 30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Undeniable Fact 3: Hell shall surrender all its captives to Him who holds the keys of hell and of death (Rev 1:18) on the great judgment day, at the end of time. The emptied hell shall be cast into the lake of fire. Hell lasts as long as time lasts; it's restricted to the intermediate state in time.

Revelation 20 KJT — 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Undeniable Fact 4: The lake of fire is the eternal destiny of sinners not redeemed by Christ, i.e. those whose names are not found written in the book of life. Christ redeemed His people from the lake of fire; thus, there is no warning against it to His disciples.

Revelation 20:15 KJT — And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Undeniable Fact 5: Satan deceives many to believe these popular lies:
- hell and the lake of fire are the same,
- Christ redeemed them from hell.

That's the way the subtle serpent makes the road that leads to hell so attractive, even completely irrelevant to them. 

Predestination vs. Fatalism

 

#predestionation_vs_fatalism
Date: Sat Mar 10, 2007 7:08 am

Sing, can you tell us the major differences between your understanding of divine predestination and that taught by the Islamics?

Brian
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Mar 12, 2007, 10:49 AM

Brainy Brian,
I don't know if I can... I don't know what is "taught by the Islamics."

It is odd that you ask such a question; it betrays your serious difficulties with my view of predestination. What have I written that conveys SUCH a fatalistic idea in your mind? Just curious.

I can tell you the little I know about what I understand the Bible to say on predestination.

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.” Romans 8:29-30.

EVERYTHING HERE IS MONERGISTIC - SOLELY AND COMPLETELY by free and sovereign divine grace - of pure and unadulterated divine grace in our eternal salvation. Also, all the divine actions here embrace and apply to every single elect in Christ, without exception.

Now let me explain.

The first basic point to note concerning Romans 8:29-30 is that the people embraced here include every single elect. This simple fact should inform us how we understand the wonderful declaration... The exact number predestinated is the same number effectually called unto eternal life through free grace justification based solely on the righteousness and blood of Jesus Christ. Every single elect predestinated to be conformed to the image of God’s Son, God called... God justified... and God glorified… all by God’s free grace, without any human co-operation. Not a single elect of God missed this call. So, what is this call? Is it the gospel call to faith or the effectual call unto eternal life? This call cannot be the gospel call to conversion - because the gospel call to conversion does not reach every single elect who is effectually called unto eternal life, see 1689.10.3. The call here is the divine effectual call unto eternal life - and this is true of every single elect, with no exception whatsoever, 1689.10.1.

Every elect is called unto eternal life by the direct and immediate and efficacious call of God through His Word (life-giving Christ) and Spirit. This He did by justifying them, i.e. He removed the just condemnation upon them, and imputed to them personally the righteousness of Christ, all by pure free grace, not on condition of faith.  One is gravely mistaken in understanding the call in Romans 8:30 has anything to do with the gospel call. It is classic eisegesis by very many - the free-willer as well as the so-called 'reformed' folks.

The justification spoken here is the justification applied to an elect at effectual calling unto eternal life, spoken of in 1689.11.1. This is the justification applied to every single elect personally. This is not the justification experienced by faith through the gospel call - because not all the elect will receive the gospel call and experience justification by faith. The justification spoken of here is justification before faith is possible; i.e. justification applied when an elect was in his native state of sin and condemnation. This passage does not support the view of the gospel call leading to justification by faith. There is no gospel call here. There is no justification by faith here.

There is an effectual call unto life... effectual call unto life requires the removal of the condemnation of death, i.e. it requires the justification secured by Christ to be applied to the elect personally. There is justification by divine free grace through the righteousness of Christ applied to an elect personally. When condemnation is removed, eternal life is bestowed; yes, eternal life is bestowed... thus guaranteeing glorification. Effectual call unto eternal life guarantees glorification regardless of the amount of temporal salvation blessings one will experience through the ministry of the word.

There is no gospel call here. Apostle Paul did not say, “whom the preacher called God justified.” The preacher issues a gospel call to conversion. But what did Christ say about the call to life? John 5:25 “Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.” Please note, this does not say the ministry of the preached word, nor the preached words of Christ, it is not the voice of the preacher, but the ‘voice of the Son of God’. How easy it is to usurp Christ in the effectual calling of the spiritually dead elect to eternal life with the preachers’ gospel call of the regenerated elect to believe in the truth.

Those whom God has predestinated to eternal salvation, God himself will bring them to eternal salvation, without any assistance or cooperation from finite man.

Where then is the place of the ministry of the word? Good question. It is indispensable for God's children, elect already regenerated by God - to hear the word of truth, the gospel of their salvation (Eph 1:13). They need to hear and know the truth of their glorious salvation by God's grace. God has appointed the ministry of the word to bring temporal blessings to His children here on earth.

The ministry of the word is MOST NECESSARY - but only for the purpose it is ordained by God, not what man has VAINLY imagined. Preachers have been called to feed the lambs... but many have vainly and foolishly thought that God called them and commissioned them to HELP God birth His children. The command is, "Go, and make disciples..." Too many think it is, "Go and make children of God." God's children must be discipled. i.e. instructed and taught the truth of their eternal salvation by God's free grace, taught to observe all the commands of Christ - this will bring them temporal salvation in this life. The command is, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations..." Only those whom God has already effectually called to eternal life, saved eternally, are capable of receiving teaching from God-sent preachers. Too many foolishly think, "Go ye, therefore, and assist God to bring forth His children."

The ministry of the word is MOST UNNECESSARY for the BEING of God's children.

The ministry of the word is MOST NECESSARY for the WELL-BEING of God's children.

It was never ordained for that purpose. Deluded men have perverted it. I have not heard of a father who ever claimed that diapers and baby clothing have anything to do with the BEING, the conception and birth of a child. But there are too many deluded preachers and believers that the ministry of the word and faith has something to do with their BEING as children of God

Without the ministry of the word, not one jot of the eternal salvation of one elect is ever lost. Without the ministry of the word, a child of God is deprived of the temporal salvation which comes from the ministry of the word. That explains the urgency of 'preach the word, be instant in season, and out of season...' That explains the command, 'take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou BOTH SAVE THYSELF, AND THEM that hear thee.'

Would the eternally wise God risk the eternal salvation of His elect by conditioning it upon something that finite man must cooperate and assist? God forbid.

That's about all I know - and it is a fraction of a drop in the South China Sea.

God is sovereign, and I am an optimist; I'm no fatalist, as indicated by your question.

Now, you may tell me the difference between what I believe and what you think is taught by the "Islamics" about predestination.

sing