True and False Distinctions between Faith and Works

The stunning flower of roselle
is distinctly different from its bud!

1. There is a FALSE distinction between faith and works, and there is a biblical distinction between faith and works.

There is one basic thing that new school calvinists are woefully blinded to:
There is the biblical distinction between the faith OF Christ and the works of man: i.e.  Christ's faithfulness in His works of redemption, and a sinner's work of righteousness
are contrasted in the context of eternal salvation - the basis/ground condemned sinners are saved. Are they saved by what Christ has done, or are they saved by their own works? 

This truth is simply stated, and demonstrated, and illustrated WITHOUT any further dispute by the Apostle Paul.

There is ALSO the distinction between (i) a man faith in Christ" and (ii) "his works of obedience to ceremonial laws": i.e. God's children believing in Christ is contrasted to their works of observing the old covenant ceremonial laws are contrasted in the context of temporal and experiential justification - how God's children experience the blessedness of their eternal salvation by God's free grace.

Do they experience the blessedness of their justified state through faith in Christ or or the obedience to the ceremonial laws - that's the question!

This was basically a Jewish problem - the great conflict between:
(i) observing the old covenant ceremonial laws for their practical/experiential justification under the new covenant on the one hand and
(ii) believing in Jesus Christ for their practical/experiential justification on the other hand.

Apostle Paul spent a great deal of time in dealing with this conflict NOT ONLY because God's children among the Jews were stubbornly and ignorantly stuck in their old covenant ways, BUT ALSO they insist that God's children among the Gentiles must submit to the old covenant ceremonial laws TOO!

During the time of reformation* - those 40 years of transitional period where the old covenant and new covenant overlapped - before God brought the final and complete end to the old covenant order, Apostle Paul have to deal with that problem in the apostolic churches

(* Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.)

A teacher of God's people who does not see this distinction ought to be ashamed.

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

2. This truth is simply stated, and demonstrated, and illustrated. WITHOUT any further dispute.

a: Stated and demonstrated:

Roman 3
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one...
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

In context, v28 speak of the faith OF CHRIST stated in verse 22. It is the faithfulness of Christ in His redemptive work that secured the righteousness needed for the legal justification of the elect.

For legal justification before God: it is either by man's own righteousness or by the righteousness of a substitute. No righteousness, no LEGAL justification. PERIOD.

Sin brings condemnation. Righteousness ALONE secure justification.

Faith, man's act of believing plays ZIL NIL role in his legal and vital justification before God. PERIOD.

b. Illustrated:
To do this, Apostle Paul MARSHALED the example of Abraham, whom all the Jews have utmost reverence, and boasted as their father.

Romans 4:
Abraham was justified by God's free grace when he was an UNGODLY man in the Ur of the Chaldean - as stated in Rom 3:24 "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus."

An ungodly man is a man in his native state of sin and death. If he is to be justified AT ALL in his native state of sin and death, it must be by God's free and sovereign grace alone... through applying the legal righteousness secured (prospectively) by Christ for him at the cross... without which he remains under condemnation of death... utterly incapable of believing... WORSE STILL... an ungodly man is in active ENMITY and REBELLION against God, seeing the gospel as foolishness.

God justifies the ungodly. PERIOD. Forensic justification of Abraham took place in Ur when God effectually called him out of his state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation. (In the effectual calling of an elect out of his native state of condemnation, death and alienation to grace and salvation in Christ, God freely justified (reverses condemnation), regenerated him (reverses death), and adopted him (reverses alienation), and bestowed the Spirit of adoption to dwell in him; that is, he is brought into the sate of state and salvation in Jesus Christ,

Believing justifies the believing ones (those justified by God's free grace, and regenerated, and adopted). This Practical/Experiential justification of Abraham took place in Gen 15. He experienced practical justification in Gen 15. PERIOD.

The new school calvinist CANNOT distinguish the two; worse still, they confuse the two and make forensic/legal justification to be conditioned on faith.

A biblical distinction is the essence of sound theology.

3. New school baptists boast in their 1689 CoF.
But see what it says.

1689.11.4 “God did from all eternity decree to justify all the elect, and Christ did in the fullness of time die for their sins, and rise again for their justification; nevertheless, they are not justified personally, until the Holy Spirit doth in time due actually apply Christ unto them.”

In the above statement, we have three distinct aspects/phases of justification spoken of:
- decretal justification of all the elect by God’s decree in eternity (justification purposed)

- legal justification of all the elect by Christ’s righteousness at the cross (justification accomplished)

- vital/personal justification of individual elect at their effectual calling (justification applied)

1689.11.1 is a declaration of the vital/personal justification of individual elect at their effectual calling (justification applied).

This (the vital/personal justification) is manifested in practical/evidential/experiential justification through faith. This is explained in the second paragraph.

Justification applied by God's free grace WITHOUT the instrumentality of faith, and justification experienced through the instrumentality of believing and resting in Christ are logically and chronologically DISTINCT. The former is ALWAYS logically and chronologically prior to the latter.

1689.11.2 “Faith thus receiving and resting on Christ and His righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification; yet it is not alone in the person justified, but ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but worketh by love.”

Faith is the alone instrument to experience/manifest the justification that has taken place by free grace! Faith is one of many graces found in the person justified, and is drawn forth by the gospel ministry.

Michael Lim
Pastor Lau, could it be due to the bible versions that RB are using as it is saying especially in Romans 3:22 - .....faith in Jesus Christ instead of faith of Jesus Christ...?
Just this simple change of word has a big difference in the interpretation.

They boast and shout about 'verbal inspiration' on top of their reformed mountain... but they are very sure that the faith of Christ and their faith in Christ are the same, or differ little and of no significance doctrinally. MAny insist that the faith of Christ is the faith that is given to us by Christ!

BUT the CONTEXT of Romans 3:22 determines and demands the faith of Christ - EVEN the faithfulness of Christ in the work of redemption as the basis and ground of legal justification. 'Faith in Christ' is REMOTELY related with legal justification.

Sound-byte-itis is a widespread and debilitating disease.

Pink is leaking!

 

February 15, 2015

Pinkish Leaks

The life-giving voice of Christ, and
The converting call of the gospel ministry.
Can you distinguish them?

This is a popular quote, from Arthur Pink's  "The Ordained Lamp"

"That which regulates God in His providential dealings concerning the Gospel—opening doors or shutting them, sending one of His ministers to a place or withdrawing him—is whether or not there be some of those for whom Christ died in that particular locality: for the "sheep" shall hear His voice (John 10:16).

Paul was bidden by the Lord to remain at Corinth, for, said He, "I have much people in this city" (Acts 18:10). On the other hand, God suffered him not to go into Bithynia (Acts 16:7).

Where there is no Gospel preaching for a protracted period, it is an indication that none of God’s elect are there."

====

Quoted on a friend's page, it has enjoyed 82 Likes and 27 Shares! So, it's popular.

But I DON'T agree with Mr Pink.

1. "That which regulates God... is whether or not there be some for whom Christ died in that particular locality..."
- No, that which regulates God is none other that His sovereign and own good pleasure.
- Pink's notion presupposes that ALL elect without distinction will have the gospel ministry divinely directed to them. That's just a fable.

2. The statement that His sheep will hear His voice is NOT the same as saying ALL His sheep will hear His voice through the gospel ministry. Mr Pink implies the latter.
- Pink assumes that wherever there are God's elect, the gospel ministry will be divinely sent to them. He believes all the elect are capable of hearing the gospel, and all will hear the gospel.

3. Pink is WRONG in conditioning hearing the voice of Christ through the gospel ministry. John 6:39 proves NOTHING that all the elect will hear the voice of Christ THROUGH the gospel ministry.

4. A man insisted, "But the elect, eventually, will always respond to the gospel or they were not elect."

I would love some proof from the Scriptures for that assertion. He is saying, like Mr Pink, ALL ELECT, without exception. will always eventually hear the gospel, and respond to the gospel. Just prove that from the Scriptures.

All the elect in their native state of sin and death, without exception, will INDEED hear the life-giving voice of Christ, the life-giving voice of the eternal Word, and be given eternal salvation. However, not all such will hear, and respond to the gospel. Some don't have the ABILITY to hear or respond to the gospel.; some don't have the OPPORTUNITY to hear the gospel.

The life-giving voice of Christ in SUMMONING a man dead in trespasses and sins to eternal life, and converting voice of a preacher calling a child of God (already called to eternal life by Christ) to believe the truth of his salvation are two distinct, and independent activities.

The former is entirely monergistic, solely by divine power and activity in giving eternal life to a man dead in trespasses and sins; the latter is synergistic through the preaching activities of men in bringing God's children to know the truth of their salvation ALREADY freely accomplished by the Triune God.

A biblical distinction is the essence of sound theology.

Sound bites only mislead and confuse.

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4 comments

Bill Taylor
Amen and amen!

Ante Zivkovic
Very good.

Jorge Quierrez Jr.
Amen

Sing F Lau
I feel sick seeing that such Pinkish fables are liked and shared by so many!

2Tim 4
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

God's offer of salvation? What a fable!

There is no offer of salvation in John 3:16.
John 3:16 is a statement on the greatness of God's love:
Jesus Christ secured eternal life for all those given to Him: 
the evidence: the believing ones have eternal life!

,

February 15, 2018

God's offer of salvation? A popular fable.

God created; He didn't offer to create.
God saves; He didn't offer to save.

- God the Father purposed salvation before time;
- God the Son accomplished that salvation through His life and death;
- God the Spirit sovereignly applies that salvation to each one at God's own appointed and approved time in the effectual calling.
- God ordained the gospel ministry to call out such to believe in the gospel of their salvation which has been freely and sovereignly applied to them when they were dead in trespasses and sins

There is no offering of salvation; if that salvation in Jesus Christ had been offered, NONE would be saved. None is able to accept the offer.

Salvation is obviously offered to them that are without salvation; but those without salvation are STILL in their native state of sin and death, absolutely incapable of perceiving spiritual things, much less accepting it. Not only that, in their native state, they are in enmity against God. The offer of a Big Mac to a dead man stands a better chance of being accepted.

Many folks don't seem or refuse to realize: offering something to the dead is far from being loving or kind; it is superstitious, and it taunts and mocks the dead.

Eternal salvation in Christ is FREELY and SOVEREIGNLY applied to a man when he is dead in trespasses and sins.  Then he is called to believe the gospel of his salvation.

Ephesians 1:13 KJV — In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Get rid of the popular fable/shibboleth "sola gratia."  Buy the truth.

"Wow, the heart of God is sooooo biggggg..." - salvation by grace grasped!

A dear brother wrote to inquire about something he had heard in a message. And the Lord enlightened his mind and filled his heart with great joy when he understood salvation by grace alone a wee bit better. 

Read on and share his experience.
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From: e-sunny
Date: August 12, 2007, 9:03:53 AM GMT+07:00
To: sing <singpenang@gmail.com>
Subject: 5 phases of unconditional salvation

Dear Pastor
Wifey listened to a bible study conducted by GC and I believe the speaker is not Pastor C as the voice and presentation are not his. As the points were laid forth, I concurred wholeheartedly but for point 6 in which I have to stop listening and refer to the Scriptures He referred to 1 Cor 10: 1ff and made a point that all passed under the same cloud, like Moses and through the sea... baptised into Moses.. ate the same spiritual food. However, to most of them God is not pleased for the bodies are scattered in the wilderness..the .speaker illustrated this point to content:

a. Those who fall to the wilderness are allowed to sin as yet will be saved even if their bodies were scattered to the wilderness.

b. Is then God an Author for sin?

c. 1 Cor 10: 8,9 spoke on sexual immorality and the action Phinehas has taken to kill that blatant of sexual immorality man and this man will be counted amongst the saints in heaven?

d. God forbids that the man under the cloud and passing through the sea shall be allowed to commit such blatant sin- where is the justice? where is the honour of God?

Please correct me if I am wrong because these actions go against the holiness of God... I know we have no part in our salvation but does the security of being elected gives a licence to commit even the deadliest of all sins. David and his sins, I accepted that he is in heaven because he repented. What about the 23k who fell to the wilderness, any repentance?

Thanks

e-sunny

----------------------------

From: sing <singpenang@gmail.com>
Date: August 13, 2007, 2:08:52 AM GMT+07:00
To: e-sunny
Subject: Re: 5 phases of unconditional salvation

Dear Brother e-sunny,
I am glad to hear that your Wifey is listening to that bible study on unconditional salvation. I listened to it a few times a while ago.

I have read carefully your mail above several times in order to grasp what you are actually saying. I do hope I have understood your concern... because I need to scratch where the itch is. Please let me make some comments. I want to be brief... so please ask further if you don't get what I am saying.

For the first matter, please have your Bible opened at 1Cor. 10:
1 ¶ Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they ['all our fathers'] drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them ['all our fathers']: and that Rock was Christ.
5 But with many of them ['all our fathers'] God was not well pleased: for they ['many' out of 'all our fathers'] were overthrown in the wilderness.

a. Please note most carefully the phrase 'all our fathers' in verse 1. This phrase defines the extent and the context of the 'all' that is spoken of in the following verses.
- Please remember that Apostle Paul is writing to the Gentile believers in Corinth. All those who crossed the Red Sea during the Exodus were chiefly Jews. To these Gentile believers in Corinth, who among those that had crossed the Red Sea with Moses in the Exodus could be said to be their fathers? Surely NO natural Jews can in any sense be said to be the fathers to these Gentile believers in Corinth. Who then?
- Apostle Paul is undoubtedly speaking specifically of the SPIRITUAL Jews among all those that crossed the Red Sea during Exodus. ONLY the SPIRITUAL  Jews among all of them that crossed the Red Sea constituted 'all our fathers' of these spiritual Gentiles of Corinth.
- So Apostle Paul is NOT referring to ALL those, EVERY ONE without distinction, that crossed the Red sea under the leadership of Moses. Many were natural Jews... were never among the elect of God.
- "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." Romans 2:28-29.
- "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel." Roman 9:6.

b. With many of them ('them' referring to 'all our fathers' in verse 1) God were not pleased. Many of them were among the Jews who sinned against God in the wilderness - in their sins of unbelief, idolatry, and fornication. They were found in the company of the natural Jews who sinned and were overthrown in the wilderness. And they were overthrown in the wilderness, along with the other natural Jews, i.e. they were visited by God's judgment of natural death for their sins in the wilderness.
- Instead of entering into the natural rest of the beautiful land of Canaan, they ['many' among 'all our fathers'] died prematurely in the wilderness. They ( many among 'all our fathers') suffered the fierce wrath of God against sins. They were truly God's children, but that did not exempt them for one moment from the fierce displeasure of God the Father against their sin. God overthrew them - and cut them down in the wilderness. It is precisely they were not bastards, but God's children, that they were severely scourged and chastised... many even unto physical death.
- God can't possibly be the author of sin. His holiness recoils against sins, His commandments THUNDER against sins, and His hot displeasure are poured forth against the sins of His very own children - to the extent of terminating their lives prematurely.
- God is certainly no author, nor condoner of sin, but the HATER and PUNISHER of sin.

c. Apostle Paul quoted the Exodus event as a stern warning for the SAINTS, God's children in Corinth - DON'T follow the examples of YOUR FATHERS... you shall suffer the same fate. You shall be overthrown by God just as many of them had been. God DIDN'T spare your fathers in the OT, don't be deceived that he would spare you now if you provoke Him to wrath with your sins.
- Verse 6: "Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted."
- There are abundant examples of the hot displeasure and wrath of God kindled against the sexual sins found among His own children. "Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents." 1Cor 10:8.9.
- Later in chapter 11, Apostle Paul reminded the Corinthian believers that many of them were ALREADY dead because they abused the ordinance of the Lord's Supper. They handle the holy things of God with unholy hands. "For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. For this cause, many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep" [dead, overthrown by God's hot displeasure].
- God terminated their earthly life. All those with whom God was displeased and put to sleep, they shall be woken up to eternal glory when Christ returned to be glorified in ALL His saints. So also all those out of 'all our fathers' whom God have overthrown in the wilderness. Ah, eternal salvation is indeed by God's free and unconditional grace. 
- Obedience DOES LENGTHENS life. "My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments: For length of days, and long life, and peace, shall they add to thee." Pr 3:2. Disobedience may provoke God to cut us off before our time.
- Eternal salvation is indeed by God's free and sovereign grace.
- Temporal salvation is conditioned upon our obedience. Disobedience incurs the hot displeasure of God... and many of God's children were overthrown... destroyed in the temporal sense... deprived of enjoying temporal blessings.

d. God deals with His children (saved by His free and sovereign grace) as free moral agents and holds them responsible for their actions. Obedience brings blessings, and disobedience brings curses. The Bible is full of these examples... both from the OT and the NT. Immorality incurred God's severe wrath... the same today if it is tolerated in the church.
- God does not coerce or force His children. He works in them to will and to do. They are free moral agents... they must choose to obey or disobey... He does not condone sins... God reserves the sole prerogative to bless or punish accordingly. God positively commands them to do good and threatens punishment for sins. God promises to bless obedience and to punish sins. God persuades and motivates his children to obey His commandments... all of which make sins against God to be very grievous and heinous.

I hope these few thoughts are helpful. Chew off the meat that you can and leave the bones to the dogs.

I had better stop before it gets too long.

Please feel free to ask further if I have missed any issue raised in your mail.

your brother and servant in Christ,
sing

[notes: I have written somewhere else that "5 facets of salvation" is a better term than "5 phases of salvation."] 

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From: sing <singpenang@gmail.com>
Date: August 13, 2007, 11:26:00 AM GMT+07:00
To: e-sunny
Subject: Re: 5 phases of unconditional salvation

Dear e-Sunny,
Having written more fully in the previous mail, I will now give brief comments on your specific questions and 'statements' in your post below.

@ He referred to 1 Cor 10: 1ff and made a point that all passed under the same cloud, like Moses and through the sea... baptised into Moses..ate the same spiritual food. However, to most of them, God is not pleased for the bodies are scattered in the wilderness..the speaker illustrated this point to content...

## The people spoken of in that whole passage is about 'all our fathers' to the Gentile believers in Corinth. They were spiritual Jews - those who were made partakers of Christ WITHOUT ANY CONDITION, they were blessed with eternal salvation by God's free grace WITHOUT ANY CONDITION.

- Many of those spiritual Jews did ACTUALLY sin against God in various and grievous ways... stated in verses 6-10.
"6 ¶ Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. [They rose up to play, they didn't rise to worship... they rose up to orgy and revelry. This is happening in so many churches... they PLAY... not worship.]
8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.

These are facts and evidence, no matter how we dislike to read them, no matter how disagreeable and contrary to our pet notions. SOME [not all] OF THEM ('all our fathers') our spiritual fathers did actually commit those grievous sins. These are facts and evidence, and they DO crush the silly LIE and FABLE that all God's children persevere in faith and holy living.  Someone once stated, "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclination, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."

The other facts and evidence are also clearly stated: ALL SUCH 'were overthrown in the wilderness,' they 'were destroyed of serpents,' and 'were destroyed of the destroyer.'

Based on these facts and evidence, Apostle Paul warns all Christians in every generation not to go down the same road.

@ a. Those who fall to the wilderness are allowed to sin as yet will be saved even their bodies were scattered to the wilderness.
## God warned His children against the severe consequences of sinning. God deal with His children as free moral agents, and not as robots. God does not coerce His children from sin. Neither does He force them to obey. Obedience has to be voluntary, out of a willing and submissive heart.

@ b. Is then God an Author for sin?
## God can't possibly be the author of sin. His holiness recoils against sins, His commandments THUNDER against sins, and His hot displeasure is poured forth against the sins of His very own children - to the extent of terminating their lives prematurely. God is certainly no author, nor condoner of sin, but the HATER and PUNISHER of sin. From the very beginning, God has declared plainly that the wages of sin is death... physical death, spiritual death and eternal death. God is the sole AUTHOR AGAINST sin.

You asked:
@ c. 1 Cor 10: 8,9 spoke on the sexual immorality and the action Phinehas has taken to kill that blatant of sexual immorality man and this man will be counted amongst the saints in heaven?

## There is no indication one way or another whether that particular man was among 'all our fathers.' It goes against our natural idea and understanding that such a man should be counted amongst the saints in heaven. I do sympathize with such revulsion.

Nevertheless, the plain fact is, that Apostle Paul did say that some among 'all our fathers' DID commit fornication. The 'blatant' sexual immorality of that man, though very grievous, is certainly no more grievous than the fornication committed by the others among our fathers. This man certainly DID DIE the most horrible and disgraceful and humiliating death for his 'blatant' sin. So let each child of God be warned... sin has its temporal penalty in this life. By the grace and mercy of God, the penalty of eternal death for sins has been fully, completely and wholly settled by Christ Jesus.

@ d. God forbids that the man under the cloud and passing through the sea shall be allowed to commit such blatant sin- where is the justice? where is the honour for God?

## God gives eternal salvation to each of His elect at His own appointed and approved time. And He gives this eternal salvation by His free and sovereign grace... we need to grow to understand the full implication of the last statement.

God gives clear commands to His children... stating the blessings of obedience and the curses for sins. He gives all sorts of motivation and encouragement to obedience. He gives all sorts of threats and deterrents against sins.

A child of God who freely chooses to obey and do His Father's will shall be blessed. A child of God who chooses to disobey and sin shall also be cursed - suffer temporal judgments in this life.

Grievous sins among His children, our fathers, DID OCCUR - "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclination, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." God most certainly DID NOT condone it nor approve it, though He 'allowed' such to take place. If He hadn't 'allowed,' none would have taken place.

God is just... as always, in all circumstances.

God maintains His honour... as always, in all circumstances.

He expects His children to live godly. He is just.

He punishes His children who flirt and mess around with sins. He is still just.

But He saves His own elect by His grace and mercy... and this ALSO justly and honourably through His Son Jesus Christ. There isn't the slightest injustice, or dishonour in His doing so, and in the way He does it.

@ Please correct me if I am wrong because these actions go against the holiness of God... I know we have no part in our salvation but does the security of being elected give a licence to commit even the deadliest of all sins. David and his sins, I accepted that he is in heaven because he repented. What about the 23k who fell to the wilderness, any repentance?

## Those acts of sins certainly do go against the holiness of God. Just because those acts of sin are obnoxious and abominable and heinous in the sight of God DOES NOT mean that God's children are NOT capable of committing them. It is precisely that God's children still have the inclination to commit such DEADLY sins, that Apostle Paul needed to deal with such matter and sternly warned the SAINTS in Corinth!!!

The security of being God's children DOES NOT give anyone license to commit even the 'LIVELIEST' of all sins - say, a white lie, or murmuring. It is ONE thing to admit the fact that God's children DO SIN and sometimes SIN in the most grievous manner... like committing the 'deadliest' of all sins. This is 1000 worlds of difference from saying that God's children, being eternally secure, have the license to sin the deadliest of all sins; it is a 1000 worlds of difference from condoning any sin. I hope you see the great gulf between the two.

David repented... because God gave him room for repentance. He and Bathsheba could have been pierced through with a javelin too. His sin was no less grievous in the sight of God. The 23k in Num 25 were overthrown with no more room for repentance. Many of 'our fathers' were among them that committed WHOREDOM (Num 25:1) - God destroyed them.

"In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth." 2Ti 2:25

God's children do foolishly oppose the truth and do themselves great harm. To admit so IS NOT the same as to condone such grievous sin and folly. That is why Pastor Timothy is instructed to work patiently and meekly to restore such.

Repentance is a work of God's grace... even for God's children, should they despise God's word, a time would come when there would be no repentance left... God give them up to suffer destruction in this life.

I hope these few thoughts help you to grasp the truth.

May our Lord bless you richly.

your brother and servant in Christ,
sing

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From: e-sunny
Date: August 13, 2007, 9:13:53 AM GMT+07:00
To: sing <singpenang@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: 5 phases of unconditional salvation

Dear Pastor,

I knew that was the understanding as it seems logical or as "all" as in the exodus period having taken the bread and drank from the rock. The bitter pill to swallow is blatant sins are allowed to be punished only in this lifetime and two things conjure in my mind right now:

a. Wow, the heart of God is sooooo biggggg and the extent of His love so wide that I am thoroughly forgiven even when I grieve the Spirit.

b. Let's say... now knowing I would not be thrown into the pit of fire, I will go on displeasing God and the possible consequence is a shortened and trouble-filled life. So what! I can be a "pai kah chai" [Cantonese for a useless and careless son] and will be a prince or a friend in heaven. Can you imagine, the Spirit of life who can sear my conscience but cannot effect change because I will to disobey!

As I always understood the word "fathers" was used loosely to mean those of that generation and I understood not all were physically condemned to early death. These are part of God's elect. I also cannot stomach the blatant actions of the man killed by Phinehas. What! in heaven with him. Emotions....as my sins though are not that drastic still sin and abominable to God. Let me have time to think of this truth... I may have to reject this notion that every one of the "fathers" is in heaven today...
May God help me.

Best regards
e-sunny

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From: sing <singpenang@gmail.com>
Date: August 13, 2007, 1:33:02 PM GMT+07:00
To: e-sunny 
Subject: Re: 5 phases of unconditional salvation

Dear Brother e-sunny,
Keep talking... and things will become clearer. "Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name." Mal 3:16.

My comments are marked ## within your post below.

@ I knew that is the understanding as it seems logical or as "all" as in the exodus period having taken the bread and drank from the rock. The bitter pill to swallow is blatant sins are allowed to be punished only in this lifetime and two things conjure in my mind right now:

## Verses 3 and 4 read thus:
"3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ."

Apostle Paul was not referring to natural manna from heaven or the natural water that came out of the rock. Of these, absolutely ALL those who came out of Egypt DID eat and drink.

Every sin has both eternal consequences and temporal consequences. Christ's work of redemption took away and dealt with the eternal consequences of all the sins of all His people once and for all. If this were not so, there would be no eternal salvation for any. If this were not so, even the 'lightest' sin would damn a man to eternal misery - that's a more sour pill to chew! Each sin, whether most 'blatant' or the least 'blatant,' deserves death in all its fullness.

Adam eating the forbidden fruit might look like a light sin... yet because of that sin, the whole human race was cursed and condemned.

[note added in 2023 Feb: "The bitter pill to swallow is blatant sins are allowed to be punished only in this lifetime...." No, not just this lifetime. Often the wicked among God's children are not even punished in this lifetime! I have learned since 2007 that there is an intermediate state of hell between physical death and the general resurrection; this is true for God's disobedient children as well. Christ's redemptive works saved His people from the eternal lake of fire, which is distinct from temporal hell. Christ DID SOLEMNLY warn His disciples against hell and to take drastic actions to avoid hell but He never warned His disciples about the lake of fire.  Take a look here: https://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2021/10/hell-and-lake-of-fire-they-are-distinct.html ]

@ a. Wow, the heart of God is sooooo biggggg and the extent of His love so wide that I am thoroughly forgiven even when I grieve the Spirit.

## God forgives you when you were in an even WORSE state than grieving the Spirit.
- We were enemies. "For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life." Romans 5:10.
- We were children of wrath. "Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." Eph 2:3.
- God loves us, and forgives us, and gives us eternal salvation when we were in a far WORSE state.
- When you grieve the Spirit of God, you shall suffer the chastisement and the scourging of your FATHER in this life. He may even terminate your life... or leave you to wallow in your sin and suffer the just bitterness.

@ b. Let say... now knowing I would not be thrown into the pit of fire, I will go on displeasing God and the possible consequence is shortened and trouble-filled life. So what! I can be "pai kah chai" [Cantonese for useless and careless son] and will be a prince or a friend in heaven. Can you imagine, the Spirit of life who can sear my conscience but cannot effect change because I will to disobey!

## Apostle Paul dealt with that classic problem before - Romans 6. True teaching on eternal salvation by God's free grace will ALWAYS draw forth such objection. When there is no such objection, the truth of eternal salvation by God's free grace has not been faithfully taught.

6:1 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Such thinking or mentality betrays the spiritual state of the person. For a child of God to fall into grievous sin, and for a person to consciously choose a life of sin speaks of two very different spiritual states.

The fire of hell may restrain natural men in their life of sins. It is the love of God that both restrains His children from sins, and promotes obedience.  It is ONLY a swine who says, "I will go back to wallow in the muck because the master will always wash me clean again."

@ As I always understood the word "fathers" was used loosely to mean those of that generation and I understood not all were physically condemned to early death. These will be part of God's elect. I also cannot stomach the blatant actions of the man killed by Phinehas. What! in heaven with him. Emotions....as my sins though is not that drastic is still a sin and abominable to God. Let me have time to think of this truth.. I may have to reject this notion that every one of the "fathers" are in heaven today...
May God help me.

## Just remember what is actually said of 'all our fathers' - "3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ."

If that were not so, they COULD NEVER be said to be the spiritual fathers of the Gentile believers in Corinth.

At least you only cannot stomach SUCH BIG HEINOUS, ABOMINABLE blatant sin. The Pharisees cannot stomach much 'smaller' and 'minor' and far less 'blatant' sin - like eating with sinners. You have a much larger stomach than theirs.

I thank God He has a VERY BIG STOMACH... O bless the Lord for the bigness of His BIG stomach... big enough to stomach the most horrible sins of His children. God could stomach the incest of Lot... to observe this is not the same as condoning incest... it is just to note that God has a very HUGE stomach. God could stomach the idolatry of the wisest man Solomon... to observe this is not the same as condoning idolatry... it is just to note that God has a very GIGANTIC stomach. Were the adultery and murder committed by David any less heinous or blatant? Our God stomached them all too... O the grace and mercy of God.

If this glorious truth motivates some to give God more of their muck... they prove themselves to be SWINE.

May the Lord bless you and help you to see His BIG STOMACH - is my humble prayer.

your brother and servant in Christ,
sing

-----------

From: e-sunny
Date: August 13, 2007, 2:51:29 PM GMT+07:00
To: sing <singpenang@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: 5 phases of unconditional salvation

 Dear Pastor,

 As I grasped the writings, IT IS A MENTAL & SPIRITUAL REVOLUTION. My mind wants punishment for sins as seen by my eyes. My whole being wants to see the wickedness in the unconverted and the regenerated punished. But His way is higher than mine. Very much I am not against the whole concept of His unconditional election, to see the natural law of man not used against the rebellion. The rebellion though punished cannot be compared the with the heaven that is to come. My other fear is to see certain people who are outright Godless till the end and yet to be found in heaven.

Could these people secretly be partaking in the goodness of spiritual food?

Dumb fears just like questions asked by those in kindies.

Regards
e-sunny

--------

From: sing <singpenang@gmail.com>
Date: August 13, 2007, 5:56:20 PM GMT+07:00
To: e-sunny
Subject: Re: 5 phases of unconditional salvation

Dear e-sunny,
There are so many sins that are not visible to our eyes... but God sees them all.
There are punishments that are visible, and there are also punishments that are not visible. These are far worse than those that are visible. I believe a defiled conscience that tortures a disobedient and unrepentant child of God day and night is much worse than being sent to the gallows.

Godly souls are always grieved by the sins found in themselves, as well as those among God's people.

"Rivers of waters run down mine eyes, because they keep not thy law" Ps 119:136.

"My zeal hath consumed me, because mine enemies have forgotten thy words" Ps 119:139.

"I beheld the transgressors, and was grieved; because they kept not thy word" Ps 119:158.

The psalmist is not speaking of the open pagan unbelievers... but of them who were given, and knew the law of God, and were commanded to keep God's law and His word.

If one ever gets into heaven, he gets there SOLELY and WHOLLY on the finished work of Christ ALONE, and nothing else... not whether how little he has sinned or whether he has been punished sufficiently for all his sins.

By strict justice, one sin alone is enough to damn a man to eternal misery and torment. "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all" Jas 2:10.

Those who are outrightly godless till the end have no ground whatsoever to hope for eternal glory in heaven... they would go through life with misery and torment within... though they may appear respectable and prosperous to our human eyes. Such may be like the prodigal son... living among swine and sharing their food. [Lot did appear outrightly godless, wallowing in the degraded society of Sodom... offering his daughters to meet the Sodomites' lusts... had to be dragged out of Sodom... committed incest... yet it is revealed to us that he is righteous. How very unreliable is our feeble judgment!]

Such must be warned against. Their grievous sin must be pointed out. Such must be given no place in the visible church, and be treated as a heathen. Even if such do end up in heaven, it should really humble us... it only magnifies the infinite mercy and grace of God.

God has a much bigger stomach than us! Let us celebrate and rejoice in the greatness of God's grace and mercy in dealing with sinners.

In one of the parables Jesus said, "Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?" Good reminder. Salvation is the Lord's own; heaven and eternal glory are the Lord's own too. For Him to give it to the MOST undeserving ONLY magnifies His grace and mercy and goodness.

May our Lord give us grace to  "live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" Titus 2:12-13.

May our Lord bless you richly.

your brother and servant in Christ,
sing

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From: e-sunny
Date: August 14, 2007, 3:06:46 AM GMT+07:00
To: sing <singpenang@gmail.com>
Subject: Unless God opens the eyes...

Dear Pastor,

Unless God opens the eyes in the spiritual sense, the centuries of blindness to the divine truth perpetuated will ever be continuing.

Unless and until our souls want to surrender to the divine truth espoused in the bible without exception, we will be lost in the midst of truths and half-truths. No wonder the opposition to these divine truths is like the Pharaohs of the world, fighting against the truths of God.

We know the discussions we have had is the thorough truth of God hidden from us these decades. What had been dispensed were half-truths but nevertheless, God has wrought to pass our understanding of Him as the God of creation. Yes, my soul like the psalmist would like to shout with joy.

If these truths have been dispensed to us in doses like doses of milk to the infants at the beginning of our journey from regeneration till now, we would not have colic, constipation and diarrhoea. However, we praise our God for these truths found in the bible. Man has "bastardised" and dispensed doses of toxin poisoning our mind, thoughts and understanding and therefore resulting in poorness in Christian character and never understanding the depth of God's love. Brother! we thank God for the uncovering of the century and time eternal old truths.

Alas, our duty is to put across these truths on the proper pedestal, high above all for all to see and believe. Maybe the centuries of lies may not be washed away overnight or even in our lifetime but surely if God so will & purpose the real work of reformation will begin in Malaysia.

This day forth, wifey & I have begun to see God and Christ in the true & proper light. You may want to share our thoughts with the brethren.

Bless Him for His eternal love,
e-sunny

======

From: sing <singpenang@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, Aug 14, 2007, at 9:40 AM
Subject: 5 phases of unconditional salvation - Eng Sun
To: Yonathin

Dear Brother,

Below are some exchanges with e-sunny over the last few days.
His latest post, right at the bottom, brings tears of joy to my eyes.
May our Lord grant many more to see the blessed truth.
If you are busy, just read the short post right at the bottom.
Rejoice with them that do rejoice.
I will let you know the schedule for Dec in a few days' time.

sing

----

From: Yonathin
Date: Wed, Aug 15, 2007, 9:58 PM
Subject: 5 phases of unconditional salvation - Eng Sun
To: sing

Dear brother Sing,

I am rejoicing with you, and I enjoyed the correspondence.
e-sunny and wifey need to remember Lot ... Samson ... Solomon ... David ... Peter ... and the Corinthians. All these are elect saints, and they shall be in heaven, though they sinned terribly in this life. They are Bible examples for us to grasp the truth of God's saving grace, and so is the generation in the wilderness. There is nothing inconsistent with God eternally, legally, and vitally saving a man and yet allowing him to sin practically and miss God's best for his life in this world.

As you have written, both e-sunny and wifey have sinned far more than enough to send their souls to the lake of fire for eternity. The force of the whole law comes against the violation of any one point of the law (James 2:10).

The Lord bless you, brother.
Yonathin

Why, and To Whom Do Preachers preach Hell?

Mr Spurgeon's words make sense ONLY
if the temporal intermediate state of hell
is real for God's redeemed people,
and the message is to warn God's children
against careless and wreckless living -
Especially for those with a faulty notion of
"once saved always saved"
(this is true ONLY of the eternal aspect of salvation,
not true in the temporal sense.)

Preaching hell can warn and save some of God's children from ending up in hell during their intermediate state; otherwise, it's a complete waste of breath and time.

November 15, 2022

#intermediate_final_states
#hellandparadise_heavenlakeoffire
#whyChristpreachedhell

 Mark 9 - KJT
35 And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them...|
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

The Lord addressed these solemn words to His own disciples, in the second person singular. 

Supposing the Lord is addressing these words to you personally, what would be your reaction.

Would it be this?
- "Oh Lord, don't be silly; what's the relevance of Thy solemn warnings to me. As one completely redeemed by Thy free and sovereign grace unto eternal salvation, there is absolutely no possibility of me in danger of being cast into hell. Lord, Thou dost sound heretical! What's gone wrong with Thee?"
- This is a popular reaction. The wise Lord has wasted His solemn words on such a disciple.

Or this?
"Oh Lord, I thank Thee for such solemn and needful warnings against the real dangers of the temporal intermediate state of hell, and the drastic measures I needed to take in order to avoid it. I will take it to heart; I will be careful with my discipleship. Thou has indeed, by Thy redemptive works, assuredly and immutably saved me from the eternal lake of fire."

I tried warning God's children about the reality of the temporal intermediate hell for them just like the Lord Jesus did to His disciples; I am denounced as heretical.

Ezekiel 3 KJT
17 Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.
18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

I don't know if this question ever crosses your mind. When some preachers, like C.H. Spurgeon, preach fiery hell (they see it as synonymous with the lake of fire, not the temporal intermediate state between death and the general resurrection), just what do they hope to accomplish by their hell-and-brimstone sermons? Are they hoping to frighten the dead in trespasses and sins into heaven?

The common and popular notion is that God's redeemed will never end up in hell no matter what; and naturally, the non-redeemed will inevitably end up there, and not even the eloquent Prince of Preachers can persuade any of them to avoid it. Rev 20:15.

Are they addressing the fiery hell to God's children, or to those still spiritually dead? What is the relevance of preaching hell to the redeemed when the preachers and their followers are convinced that none of them will possibly end up there? What is the relevance of preaching hell to the spiritually dead non-elect who will inevitably end up there?

But Christ frequently preached hell to His own disciples whom He has redeemed with eternal redemption - yet, He solemnly warned them that there are drastic measures they must take to deal with sins in order to avoid hell; this is plain and clear.

Christ assuredly saved His people from the eternal lake of fire; thus, He didn't warn them about the lake of fire; it's unnecessary and redundant. But hell and paradise are during the temporal intermediate state between physical death and the final judgment; they shall end at the final resurrection to eternal glory (for those whose names were written in the Book of Life and are redeemed by the Lamb), or eternal shame.

This is not trying to convince you but to show you the struggle of a preacher to make some sense of the Scriptures. I don't want to hear the Lord's rebuke when I die, "You failed to warn them about the intermediate state of hell; that's why you are here with them. Now, wait here for your resurrection unto glory." I tremble at such a thought.

May the Lord be pleased to grant you light on the Scriptures' own witness on the temporal intermediate state of paradise or hell (distinct from the lake of fire) for God's children. I can't dismiss the inspired Scriptures; others are free to do so.

I don't want the Lord God to require at my hand the blood of any of His redeemed people. Lord, have mercy on me.
---------

Mr Spurgeon's words make sense ONLY if the temporal intermediate state of hell is real for God's redeemed people, and the message is to warn God's children against careless and wreckless living - ESPECIALLY for those with a faulty notion of "once saved always saved" (this is true ONLY of the eternal aspect of salvation, not true in the temporal sense.)

Preaching hell can warn and save some of God's children from ending up in hell during their intermediate state; otherwise, it's a complete waste of breath and time.