Things New and Old: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with Him. Acts 10:35

Then Peter opened his mouth, and said,
Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
But in every nation he that feareth him,

and worketh righteousness,
is accepted with Him. Acts 10:35

Apostle Peter had discovered and learned

a momentous truth that day.
Have you?

https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/4281460190210
Jan 27, 2013

SING
You wrote this on your BLOG*

I DO BELIEVE that any man who fears God and works righteousness, whatever religion he is categorized and lumped up with, whether a Muslim or whatever, COULD not only be a part of God's elect but also a true child of God by God's free and sovereign grace, and die, and never having been CONVERTED to Christianity by the gospel ministry, and be found in glory with Jason Sides.

Are you saying that men can be in heaven without knowing Christ?
---------

*The Blog post referenced by Nilo is here: https://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2013/07/those-who-fear-god-and-work.html

Sing F Lau
A very good question sir. Since you ask, I will give you my answer.
I take for granted that the 'knowing Christ' in your question is something that is intimately bound up with the gospel ministry... "

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!"

If you are inquiring about some other form of "knowing Christ', you need to clarify yourself.

There are God's children who never had the CAPABILITY to hear and/or the OPPORTUNITY to hear the gospel, therefore never brought to a knowledge of Jesus Christ. These enter heaven - just as glorified as others.

So, an affirmative yes to your question. Men go to heaven because the work of grace has made them fit for eternal glory. Of these, those that have the ability and opportunity to hear the gospel, some are brought to a saving knowledge of Christ. Others are not converted and will be deprived of many blessings for God's children in this present life.

I assume that you, together with many others, would insist that every child of God will and must hear the gospel, brought to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ - therefore every single one in heaven go there because they have heard and believe the gospel... know Christ. In that popular view, a man's entrance to heaven is DEPENDENT upon the actions of many men... the preachers bring the true gospel of Jesus Christ to them, their own works of hearing and believing the true Christ, etc, etc.

The choice is yours, dear Brother Nilo.

Sing F Lau
God's children are converted out of every religion in which they were born and grow up... whether out of practical atheism, Buddhism, Confucianism, Donkeyism, Earthism, etc... God's children (regenerated elect) are found among all such!!! [The gospel ministry is intended to seek them out and gather them into NT churches.]

Sing F Lau
The Lord of Glenn, if what I believe is hyper-calvinism to you, I'm quite happy with it!
If you think the eternal salvation of men depends on the preachers' work of preaching THE GOSPEL, and men's effort of hearing and believing the gospel, I wish you well, Lord Glenn! I wish you well!

Nilo del Mundo
I think I can agree with the statements of BCOF 1689 regarding this:
"From all eternity God decreed to justify all the elect, and Christ, in the fullness of time, died for their sins, and rose again for their justification. Nevertheless, they are not personally justified until the Holy Spirit, in due time, actually applies Christ to them."

[sing: Question - when does the Holy Spirit, in due time, actually applies Christ to them? When they were still dead in trespasses and sins and apart from the gospel ministry, or when they are under the gospel ministry and upon believing? The popular "justification by faith"? Nilo, you are likely a gospel regenerationist.]

Nilo del Mundo
Faith which receives Christ's righteousness and depends on Him is the sole instrument of justification, yet this faith is not alone in the person justified, but is always accompanied by all the other saving graces. And it is not a dead faith, but works by love.

[sing: A man who can exercise faith to receive Christ's righteousness... is ALREADY indwelt by the Spirit who works in him all the saving graces, faith being one of them. "... yet this faith is not alone in the person justified" SCREAMS at you that faith is found in a person ALREADY justified; justification is the cause, and faith is an effect. Do you even understand what you are reading?]

Sing F Lau
"From all eternity God decreed to justify all the elect, and Christ, in the fullness of time, died for their sins, and rose again for their justification. Nevertheless, they are not personally justified until the Holy Spirit, in due time, actually applies Christ to them." 1689.11.4

From all eternity God decreed to justify all the elect, and Christ, in the fullness of time, died for their sins, and rose again for their justification. Nevertheless, they are not personally justified until the Holy Spirit, in due time, actually applies Christ to them." 1689.11.3
===========
Nilo, explain what the Framers meant to you? Surely you must have an idea of what they are saying before you can agree with them!!!

Nilo del Mundo
Our conversation revolves around the TIME of justification
According to this document, in DUE TIME, the HOLY SPIRIT actually applies CHRIST to them who are personally justified,

But you declared in your blog that there are MUSLIMS who do not have CHRIST, and thus the HOLY SPIRIT has not applied CHRIST to them, and yet they are in heaven when they die.

[sing: Nilo, your words betray your ignorance of salvation by God's free grace. At God's appointed and approved time, the Holy Spirit applies Christ to God's elect who are dead in trespasses and sins, independent of any human activities. When the Holy Spirit applies Christ to an elect, he is PERSONALLY / VITALLY justified; he was ALREADY LEGALLY justified by Christ; what was LEGAL is now applied to him, and he becomes PERSONALLY justified. This is VITAL Justification by the grace of God; this is distinct from Legal Justification by the blood of Christ, and Practical/Experiential Justification by faith.]

Sing F Lau
I have written something on that part of the 1689... read it here if you are interested...

https://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2012/10/the-doctrine-of-justification-as.html
Things New and Old: The Doctrine of Justification - as summarized in the 1689 CoF
THINGS-NEW-AND-OLD.BLOGSPOT.COM
Study it... if you disagree with any part... let's discuss it!

Sing F Lau
Our conversation revolves around the TIME of justification"
===========

The TIME and the SPECIFIC ASPECT of justification: (excerpt from the above article)
May our Lord bless you with understanding!!!
There is much more than meets the eyes. We need to go beyond sound-byte!

1689.11 Para 4. The Multi-faceted Jewel of Justification
God did from all eternity decree to justify all the elect, (11) and Christ did in the fullness of time die for their sins, and rise again for their justification;(12) nevertheless, they are not justified personally, until the Holy Spirit doth in time due actually apply Christ unto them.(13) 11. Gal 3:8; 1Pe 1:2; 1Ti 2:6. 12. Ro 4:25. 13. Col 1:21-22; Tit 3:4-7.

a. Justification decreed
- by God for all the elect
- from all eternity

b. Justification secured/accomplished legally
- by Christ for all the elect
- at the cross

c. Justification applied personally
- by the Holy Spirit to each individual elect personally.
- at effectual calling to grace and salvation.

d. Justification experienced /evidenced subjectively (para 2)
- by the faith of the individual elect (those who do hear and believe the gospel)
- at initial conversion and throughout life.

e. Justification vindicated finally
- by God before the judgment throne
- on the great judgment day

- Conclusion: Justification decreed, accomplished, applied, experienced, and finally vindicated.

Some questions for discussion
Q. Why it is so necessary to distinguish the various facets of justification?
Q. How does ignorance in this injure God’s glory and honor?
Q. How does due recognition of the different facets of justification comfort God’s children?
Q. How does ignorance in this detrimental to God’s children?

Sing F Lau
Nilo del Mundo said "but you declared in your blog that there are MUSLIMS who do not have CHRIST, and thus the HOLY SPIRIT has not applied CHRIST to them, and yet they are in heaven when they die"
=========

Ah, that's what you think I'm saying! I'm saying no such thing.
You have to demonstrate that I say such things as you thought!
Try it, Nilo... and see whether what I actually said is what you thought I say!
This is what I said, and you quoted verbatim...

"I DO BELIEVE that any man who fears God and works righteousness, whatever religion he is categorized and lumped up with, whether a Muslim or whatever, COULD not only be a part of God's elect but also a true child of God by God's free and sovereign grace, and die, and never having been CONVERTED to Christianity by the gospel ministry, and be found in glory with Jason Sides."
========
A man who fears God and works righteousness is a man to whom the Holy Spirit HAS APPLIED Christ personally, OTHERWISE the reverence of God and works of righteousness is IMPOSSIBLE.

A man who fears God and works righteousness is already ACCEPTED with God... God has effectually called him for eternal glory, and Christ has been applied to him personally.

A man who fears God and works righteousness is already perfectly fitted for eternal glory... He is made capable of being called out by the gospel. WHETHER he hears the gospel or not, his place in heaven is assured by the FINISHED WORD of Christ already APPLIED to him.

Hearing the gospel and being converted to Christ is very important... not that he may have a place in heaven... for that is already perfectly settled by the finished work of Jesus Christ... it is necessary and important for saving a child of God from lies and falsehood and superstition and ungodliness... it is to save him to the truth of his salvation by God's free grace!!!

I fear you haven't adequately understood salvation by the free grace of God alone?

p/s Nilo, the Holy Spirit applying Christ to an elect while dead in trespasses and sins (i.e. the APPLICATION of Christ's righteousness to an elect PERSONALLY), and bringing that justified elect to a saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ THROUGH the ministry of the word are TWO completely independent and separate matters. Those who have Christ applied to them are fitted for eternal glory; they alone are capable of being brought to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ through the gospel ministry.
Justification freely by God's grace PRECEDES the conversion through the gospel ministry.

Preston Walters
Roman 3:3,4 "For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged."

Sing F Lau
Preston Walters, what does the faith of God mean in the passage above?
I'm always puzzled why the KJ translators did not use the word 'faithfulness' in the NT, not a single instant! It's used 22 times in the OT.
Thanks.

Preston Walters
Galatians 2:16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

Sing F Lau
Preston, tell us what you understand by those passages of the Scriptures!

Preston Walters
I'm no theologian but I will offer my understanding as best I can. The faith of Christ is Christ being faithful to himself in keeping his promise to those whom he loves.

On a personal note, I would rather know he is faithful because, as a man, I fail to be 100% faithful. My faith in Christ is a work of righteousness on my part and since I am apt to waver in my faith and he will not fail in his, I will put my trust in him.

Nilo del Mundo
I think this is a statement that when examined further, it will be indefensible

YOU WROTE:
"I DO BELIEVE that any man who fears God and works righteousness, whatever religion he is categorized and lumped up with, whether a Muslim or whatever, COULD not only be a part of God's elect but also a true child of God by God's free and sovereign grace, and die, and never having been CONVERTED to Christianity by the gospel ministry, and be found in glory with Jason Sides."

I SAY
It is impossible for a man to fear GOD and still DENY Christ.
To not be converted from ISLAM to any kind of open confession of Christ, is to DENY Christ.

It is impossible for any man to work the works of righteousness acceptable to GOD and still embrace until his dying day, any of the religions of this world

If the HOLY SPIRIT dwells inside a man, it is inevitable but that he will wake up to the error of his ways, and dead works, and come to the true and living God. And how can any come to GOD and not come thru His Son?

Preston Walters
Peter denied Christ, yet he was chosen. The stillborn infant never chooses and is not choosing him in denial of him?

With all respect to Mr Nilo, I agree with bro Sing. Grace covers all and one's denial or acceptance of him is human works and nothing can separate us from the love of God......

Sing F Lau
"It is impossible for a man to fear GOD and still DENY Christ.
To not be converted from ISLAM to any kind of open confession of Christ, is to DENY Christ."
==========
Nilo, you make one, just one FATAL error in your notion!
How can such a Muslim, one who fears God and works righteousness, DENY Christ when he has not even heard of Christ! In your understanding, can you charge a man for DENYING Christ of whom he has not even heard of? How to be converted from ISLAM to any open confession of Christ when such a man has not even heard of the gospel?

Rom 10
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Just who do you think Apostle Paul has in mind - God's children destined for eternal glory, or those still dead in trespasses and sins?

Nilo del Mundo
And you make one fatal error SING
ALL MUSLIMS have from childhood heard of CHRIST, but in the wrong way.

[sing: you make one fatal exaggeration! If one needs to resort to exaggeration, he has lost his cause! All heard? Who preached to them?]

Sing F Lau
"If the HOLY SPIRIT dwells inside a man, it is inevitable but that he will wake up to the error of his ways, and dead works, and come to the true and living God. And how can any come to GOD and not come thru His Son?"
================

May I inquire by asking you a few simple questions? I hope to hear some answers.
- Does a man who fears God and works righteousness have the Holy Spirit dwelling in him?
- Has a man who fears God and works righteousness come to the true and living God?
- Before Peter preached the gospel to Cornelius, had he come to the true and living God?
- Is a man who fears God and works righteousness still doing dead works
- Did the Arminians who die in their Arminianism wake up to the errors of their way?

You asked a question, so I will answer it.
"How can any come to GOD and not come thru His Son?"

A man comes to God when God effectually calls him to grace and salvation based solely upon the finished work of Christ... That effectual call out of the state of sin and death to the state of grace and salvation is entirely a sovereign divine work, is WITHOUT human aid.

Open confession of Christ by such requires the gospel ministry through human instrumentality. Not all of God's children are blessed with the gospel ministry. You will believe otherwise... you likely believe that EVERY CHILD of God will have the gospel ministry brought to him... i.e. every child of God will hear the gospel, and believe Jesus Christ and make OPEN CONFESSION of Christ.

Johnny Davis
@Nilo, for the Muslim, who may indeed be "righteous" and fear the God of the Universe, to be able to KNOW of Christ, can be had only by a preacher, or the Holy Bible. If told of Christ, there is no excuse. For, if told, and is truly righteous as you say, then he or she WILL come to Christ, and thus, come to God, the Creator. Or, that is what I believe to be factual, as many others here on this status.

[sing: such may not - for fear of persecution by others who hate Christ. There were secret believers in Christ among the Jews in the time of Christ.]

Nilo del Mundo
Johnny, Sing does not speak about KNOWING Christ in the righteous way that we understand it. Sing alleges that the MUSLIM has not even heard of CHRIST but SURAT MARIAM is full of references to Messiah. They call him ISSAH in the KORAN

Sing F Lau
"ALL MUSLIMS have from childhood heard of CHRIST, but in the wrong way"
========
An assertion does not constitute a truth! You heard that before, haven't you?
If they have heard of Christ but in the wrong way, then have they heard of Christ?
If they heard of Jesus who is just a man, have they heard of Jesus?
If they have read of Christ who is NOT the Son of God, have they heard of Christ?

Nilo del Mundo
Ah, and so I am able to pierce thru your insinuation Sing.
You allege that the MUSLIM have never even heard of Christ.
But when faced with the facts that they have indeed heard of Christ, and call him Massiyah, and born of the virgin Mary, and went up to heaven, and is coming back again. Then you double back and say, Yes they have heard of him wrongly and that is the same as not having heard of him at all

Sing F Lau
Nilo, what does "KNOWING Christ in the righteous way that we [you and whoever] understand it"? Kindly elaborate.

Nilo del Mundo
But before I let you escape with what I think is your mistake, let us first define terms about HAVE NEVER HEARD OF CHRIST which you allege is the case of a righteous Muslim who you think will go to heaven even if he does not convert.

[Nilo, I have stated that from the start. Let me repeat here my first comment from above on hearing and knowing Christ; I have defined it; you are not listening BUT just too eager to give own opinions and put words into my mouth!

Here repeating:
===========
A very good question sir. Since you ask, I will give you my answer.
I take for granted that the 'knowing Christ' in your question is something that is intimately bound up with the gospel ministry... "

If you are inquiring about some other form of "knowing Christ', you need to clarify yourself.

Johnny Davis
OF COURSE, if brainwashed, or manipulated by anyone about anything, is knowing of the existence about what the subject abainst (in the Muslim's case, Christ and the one God creator). God will judge the individual, as to whether that is "hearing" or not. Not me. Other humans may do so, of course. Yet, what I am speaking of with "hearing" is the gospel. That is not brainwashing as a youth.

Sing F Lau
Ah, and so I am able to pierce thru your insinuation Sing.
You allege that the MUSLIM have never even heard of Christ.
================

When you make such a statement, I have to assume that to you, Christ may be known apart from the Holy Scriptures and/or preachers sent forth to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ out of that Scriptures.

I assume that you believe that the Quran is capable of giving a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. Do I conclude correctly?

Nilo del Mundo
NO. I just want you to define your own words. You said, the MUSLIM have never heard of Christ. Do you mean, "have never heard of Christ correctly and biblically?"
Or do you mean "have never heard of Christ, like the pagans in the mountains have never heard of Christ"

[sing: Why 'no'. You have plainly stated, "... SURAT MARIAM is full of references to Messiah. They call him ISSAH in the KORAN..." You insisted that they know Christ in a righteous way from the Koran! Your own words!]

Sing F Lau
Nilo, don't get too excited. I'm here all the time. I'm no coward, and I don't need to escape.

A Muslim, or under whatever religious affiliation, under consideration is a man who works righteousness and fears God.

Johnny Davis
OK, not knowing anything of the "Koran" let me make a human judgment, then. And, you and other readers, can decide for yourself and your CREATOR, whether it is a spiritual judgment. Surant Mariam, is he the son of God, at the creation of the Universe, who died on the cross for forgiven, to provide the creator's grace. In other words, the same Jesus, that was named by Mary, who walked the earth in the first century, as both man and deity. Yes or No. Such would constitute belief. If yes, why give the Messiah from the covenant of Abraham, a different name. If no, then he, is no more Messiah than any other man or woman, that ever walked the earth, including Mohammad. What Sing and I are doing, I pray to God through the Holy Spirit, is teaching YOU, of God and Christ. If you do not believe, then that is you, not Muslims, not even Christians. It is YOU. God made YOU. Muhammad did not, nor did Surat.

[sing: Johnny, you HAVE TO say something; not because you have something to say. Not knowing anything but still went on blah blah blah. sigh]

Sing F Lau
Johnny, may I request you to hold your peace, please.
You will only muddle the discussion... knowing and interacting with you all this while.
Please honour my request. Thanks

Nilo del Mundo
And can you expand your meaning when you said, "He has not even heard of Christ! In your understanding, can you charge a man for DENYING Christ whom he has not even heard of?"

In your statements here: Nilo, you make one, just one FATAL error in your notion!
How can such a Muslim, one who fears God and works righteousness, DENY Christ when he has not even heard of Christ! In your understanding, can you charge a man for DENYING Christ of whom he has not even heard of? How to be converted from ISLAM to any open confession of Christ when such a man has not even heard of the gospel?

Johnny Davis
Yet, on a definite spiritual level, I have been told that the Koran justified killing infidels, specifically Jews and Christians, who do not accept Mohammad. That, if true, is in opposition, 180 degrees, to the Holy Bible, the God of Love, and EVERYTHING spiritual. Where in the Bible, are we told, to kill infidels. Rather, we are told to LOVE our enemies and do good to those that despitefully use us. Yes, we are to love you, Muslim killers, if such is what you are.

Johnny Davis
God will tell me to be silent. If I am silent, it will be an answer to prayer, not a request from any man. For now, I will to pray.

Sing F Lau
Nilo, you need to slow down. I will be here a long while. Let's go back to your words...
You said these: "It is impossible for a man to fear GOD and still DENY Christ.
To not be converted from ISLAM to any kind of open confession of Christ, is to DENY Christ."

And I reminded you of a general principle...
A man who has not heard of Christ CAN NOT be charged with denying Christ... I believe that is quite simple. If you do charge him, he would rebut and say, how do you know I will deny Christ? Have you even told me about him? How do you know I will not believe when you preach him to me? And just how would you answer???

But you turn around and insisted that "ALL MUSLIMS have from childhood heard of CHRIST, but in the wrong way."

If you insist on such, then I can only conclude that the Quran is ALSO capable of giving a knowledge of Jesus Christ revealed in the Scriptures alone!

Now, before you go further, can you just please affirm whether apart from the Holy Scriptures, there is a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.

Answer this, and I will answer your request for me to define - "I just want you to define your own words. You said, the MUSLIM have never heard of Christ."

Thanks.

Nilo del Mundo
"The Holy Scripture is the only sufficient, certain, and infallible rule of all saving knowledge, faith, and obedience. Although the light of nature and the works of creation and providence manifest the goodness, wisdom, and power of God so much that man is left without any excuse, they are not sufficient to provide that knowledge of God and His will which is necessary for salvation." BCOF

When I wrote: It is impossible for a man to fear GOD and still DENY Christ. To not be converted from ISLAM to any kind of open confession of Christ, is to DENY Christ.

I meant: The Muslim has heard of Christ from the Koran, just like the Catholics have heard of Christ from the Bible. Just like the FILIPINOS have heard of Christ from traditions.

All of them do not have the saving knowledge of Christ, whether from the Koran or from the Bible. All of them Deny Christ. Just like the IGLESIA NI MANALO who deny Christ, who is ANTI CHRIST because they deny the Father and the Son.

But you said, the MUSLIMS have never heard of Christ, which I understand to be ignorance on your part of their beliefs, equating them with the pagans in the mountains who have never heard of Christ.

I just want to ask you therefore for clarification.

You know for a fact that MUSLIMS know Christ historically and from the Koran RIGHT?You know for a fact that they deny that Christ is the Son of God, right? So they have heard of Christ, but deny the truth about Christ.

Do we agree on this part at least?

Sing F Lau
Johnny, do you know basic courtesy? This is my wall, and I am the lord here!
I don't tell you to be silent...I request you to hold your peace HERE!
You are still free to write and make noise EVERYWHERE else!

Why are you so unhappy! Rejoice Sir! There are a whole lot of places to write and rave and ramble!

Sing F Lau
Thanks Nilo... @ "The Holy Scripture is the only sufficient, certain, and infallible rule of all saving knowledge, faith, and obedience."
===========

If that's the case, do you still insist that ""ALL MUSLIMS have from childhood heard of CHRIST, but in the wrong way"?

From where do ALL MUSLIMS in your assertion hear of Christ? From their Quran? Or from Holy Scriptures or from some preachers who preach from the Scriptures?

Ok ok, you qualified, "but in the wrong way"? Is hearing Christ in the wrong good or bad? Isn't hearing Christ in the wrong way FAR WORSE than not hearing any falsehood at all, than having their minds poisoned by falsehood?

Nilo del Mundo
I'm with you Sing.
Muslims and Catholics, and Jews, Atheists, Buddhists, Protestants, and even Pentecostals, have all heard of Christ, and have believed the wrong way.

So listening from the KORAN or from the BIBLE doesn't make a person RIGHTLY believe Christ. Even some Baptists know of Christ the wrong way.

So all of them have heard of Christ, and God will CHARGE them for believing Christ wrongly. MATT 7:21

Sing F Lau
"Muslims and Catholics, and Jews, Atheists, Buddhists, Protestants, and even Pentecostals, have all heard of Christ, and have believed the wrong way."
========
That's a nice assertion but a fatal exaggeration. ! May be you may wish to demonstrate its truthfulness.

Judging from your assertion, you would have to conclude that men are cast into the lake of fire because they believe Christ wrongly; and believing rightly secured their place in heaven!

Do you believe that God requires the non-elect to believe Jesus Christ as their Saviour also, those whom He did not give Christ to be their Saviour?
Are you SAVED so that you can believe, or are you SAVED because you believe rightly?

Sing F Lau
Nilo, I will be back tomorrow. Enjoy yourself. Keep to the subject... i.e. "... any man who fears God and works righteousness, whatever religion he is categorized and lumped up with, whether a Muslim or whatever, COULD not only be a part of God's elect but also a true child of God by God's free and sovereign grace, and die, and never having been CONVERTED to Christianity by the gospel ministry, and be found in eternal glory."

Nilo del Mundo
I think the verse I gave says it all. Matt. 7:21

Sing F Lau
Nilo, does a man who fears God and works righteousness fit your idea of Matt 7:21?

Nilo del Mundo
That is why it is grace, no human effort or understanding can believe CHRIST correctly.

[sing: therefore, believing correctly plays NO ROLE whatsoever in your salvation. No, believing is an effect and fruit of salvation by God's free grace;

Nilo del Mundo
Catholics believe in Christ, Baptists who attend our meetings believe in Christ, but if GOD does not regenerate them, and bring them to the right knowledge of Christ, they go to the lake of fire

it is evidence that they were never chosen from before the foundation of the world

such as JUDAS who have known Christ, touched him, heard of him, but went to his place

[sing: so, RIGHT KNOWLEDGE is still a prerequisite for your salvation; without it you will end up in the lake of fire. You have just stated that.
Regeneration by God's free grace DOES NOT guarantee one iota the right knowledge of God. A faithful and sound ministry and good ground hearers will facilitate a right knowledge of Christ Regeneration by God guarantees eternal life and a place in heaven; nothing more is needed; if anything more is needed on man's part, then it is NO MORE salvation by grace alone.]

Sing F Lau
A man must be saved first by God's free grace... that's eternal salvation. A man who fears God and works righteousness EVIDENCES, DEMONSTRATES he is already regenerated. Such a man needs to be brought to the knowledge of his salvation by God's free grace. But whether he is brought to that knowledge of His salvation by God's free grace, he is already made fit for eternal glory...

Hearing and believing the truth of his salvation by God's free grace will do much good to him... but this does not make him any more saved than he is ALREADY SAVED by God's free grace.

A man's place in heaven is not dependent upon a right knowledge of Christ... it is solely dependent upon the finished work of Christ APPLIED to him personally by the Spirit of God, making him perfectly fit for heaven! That's salvation by grace - purposed by God, accomplished by Christ, and applied to him personally when he was still dead in trespasses and sins.... perfectly fitting him for eternal glory. The gospel is SPECIFICALLY INTENDED for such ONLY... the gospel is true of them alone.

Nilo, one last word! I hope you have "the right knowledge of Christ..." I really hope you have the right knowledge of Christ.... else like you say above... there is a lake of fire for those who do not have the right knowledge of Christ! Without the right knowledge of Christ is, according to your standard, evidence that such were never chosen from before the foundation of the world!

Tremble, sir! I wish you well!

Nilo del Mundo
I hope you have that too SING

[sing: Nilo, my place in heaven is NOT dependent upon a right knowledge of Christ at all; it is dependent upon the finished work of Christ freely and sovereignty applied to me when I was dead in trespasses and sins. I am SAVED in order that I may be brought to know Christ rightly; you must know Christ rightly in order to get to heaven, without it, it will be the lake of fire... I'm just repeating your words, Sir. ]

Nilo del Mundo
I agree with what you said above. The basis of salvation is NOT the right knowledge of Christ but the work of Christ alone.

Where we differ is your belief that people who have denied Christ or are ignorant of Christ even though they have a chance to believe in Christ, would still be taken to be with Christ.

I believe those who are given the chance to live their lives with norman minds, in whatever country they may be in, whatever religion they maybe born into, who were chosen to be with Christ forever, would in their lifetime, experience regeneration, effectual calling, right belief,

Sing F Lau
"Where we differ is your belief that people who have denied Christ or are ignorant of Christ even though they have a chance to believe in Christ, would still be taken to be with Christ. "
================
That's your imagination, Nilo del Mundo.
I suggest you ascertain exactly what I do believe first, then and only then you start disagreeing, otherwise you may appear foolish.

I often remind my children, when you can't even represent the position of another yet properly, you have not earned your right to dispute! That's my advice for you too!

Your fable:
"I believe those who are given the chance to live their lives with norman [normal?] minds, in whatever country they may be in, whatever religion they may be born into, who was chosen to be with Christ forever, would in their lifetime, experience regeneration, effectual calling, right belief..."

Apostle Paul proves that your fable is wrong!

Many of God's children among the Jews in his days DID NOT believe Jesus is the Christ. Go, read Romans 9-11. Thanks.

Did all those who died as Arminians have the "right belief"? <LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL>

Nilo del Mundo
Why do you play games with words Sing,

YOu said, A MUSLIM .... (may) die, and never having been CONVERTED to Christianity by the gospel ministry, and be found in glory

I interpret it that you believe that people who have denied Christ or are ignorant of Christ even though they have a chance to believe in Christ, would still be taken to be with Christ.

You said, the MUSLIM has never heard of CHRIST, and so I go with the plain meaning of words as you suggest.

Never hearing of Christ means ignorance of Christ.

[sing: Never hearing of Christ means ignorance of Christ; it's not the same as the "people who have denied Christ. "Never heard of Christ" because the gospel ministry did not reach them. See Rom 10:14ff]

Sing F Lau
Nilo, if you read words into what I said, why do you say that I play games with words?

You read words into what I say, and then say I believe what you imagine, and then say I play games with words!

What kind of man are you? And when I tell you that your interpretation of what I said is WRONG, you won't accept it, but say I play games with words? Why won't you accept what my words mean?

You see, you INSIST that ALL MUSLIMS have heard of Christ.
Upon that fiction, you then charge that ALL MUSLIMS have rejected Christ.

And now you sheepishly amend a little by saying "never hearing of Christ means ignorance of Christ!

May I ask then, is ignorance of Christ the same as rejection and denial of Christ???

May I ask you, if you have never heard of something, can I accuse you of denying and rejecting that thing?

And you assume that my words must be understood in light of your FICTION and FABLE!!!

You are just incorrigible!!!

In fact, you INSIST that ALL MEN without exception, have heard of Christ.
And therefore all who don't believe are guilty of denying and rejecting Christ!

The simple fact is, there are multitudes of people, Muslims included, who lived and died, without ever having the opportunity of hearing the gospel of Jesus Christ. Without hearing of Jesus Christ - there can be no knowledge of Christ; without knowledge of Christ, how can there be a rejection of Christ? You don't seem to see the perversity of your notions!

Very many in hell have never heard of Christ. They are there because of their sins, not because they have heard and rejected Jesus Christ. Of course, there are others that have heard of Christ preached, rightly or wrongly, to them, and rejected Christ!

Many in heaven are there NOT because they have heard and believed Christ. They are there because God purposed to save them, Christ actually saved them, and the Holy Spirit applied that salvation to them when they were dead in trespasses and sins. Others have heard and believed the gospel. There are EVEN rejectors of Christ who are ALSO found in heaven... just ask Apostle Paul about some of the Jews whom he had to deal with in his days!!! Have you read Romans 9-11 yet? Do they fit your theology???

I fear you DON'T quite understand salvation by God's free grace yet!!!

Yours is still salvation through believism, and worst still believism of the right believing of Christ!

Based upon your theory, all the Arminians, because of their wrong beliefs of Christ, will be found in the lake of fire...

You can have that... and I hope you believe Christ right and accurate enough to get you a place in heaven!

Nilo del Mundo
Sorry Sing, I understand that our definitions can't meet each other. We are both talking past each other's meanings although we are both speaking English

You said I misrepresent you and I say you misrepresent my position, you just did in your last post

So we can't go on like this, because it will just be vain jangling. Thanks anyway.

[sing: I have given you the definition of knowing from the start. Let me repeat again:
A very good question sir. Since you ask, I will give you my answer.
I take for granted that the 'knowing Christ' in your question is something that is intimately bound up with the gospel ministry... "

But you insisted that ALL Muslims know Christ but from their Koran!]

Sing F Lau
Oh yes, according to your definition, ALL MUSLIMS, and in fact ALL MEN without exception have heard and known Jesus Christ - even if they never have access to Scriptures, or preaching from Scriptures! And so, every one in hell are there because they have denied and rejected Christ. Do I represent you correctly???

Here are your statements to the effects:
1. "ALL MUSLIMS have from childhood heard of CHRIST, but in the wrong way... "
2. And this is because you believe Quran gives ALL MUSLIMS that knowledge of Christ... as though outside of the revealed Scriptures a man can have the knowledge of Christ!
3. In fact you insisted that ALL MEN, regardless of their religions, have ALSO heard of Christ. You said this all encompassing statement - "Muslims and Catholics, and Jews, Atheists, Buddhists, Protestants, and even Pentecostals, have all heard of Christ, and have believed the wrong way."

Sing F Lau
My position is very simple:
A man who fears God and works righteousness, no matter what religion he was born in and grew up with and remains in until his conversion to Christ through the gospel ministry, is a man already accepted by God and will enter eternal glory whether he is ever converted or not, whether he ever gets to hear the gospel or not. Hearing the gospel and believing in Christ will bring lots of blessings to him here on earth! Without it, he is not one jot less fit for eternal glory.

That's pretty simple, isn't it? If you don't understand, ask. No need to misrepresent; no need to interpret my statement with your own definition.

Johnny Davis
Nilo del Mundo It is mid-afternoon, in the USA, and hopefully, a good time to share. I see from your private message, that the discussion with Sing was not over the distinction between Muslim, and Christian (specifically, Baptist). May I ask? Were you Muslim, at birth, or "heard" of Jesus, the Gospel, God of the Universide, etc., becoming Christian in the process? It seems that your background, is one to share our faith. Yet, I was interested in the Muslim "kind," more from a devout Muslim. If Christian, I have little need for God to discuss with you, through my words. Yet, will do so, as you wish. I misunderstood the nature of the discussion between you and Sing. Sounds like doctrine, and I could contribute nothing there, not being Baptist, specifically.

Johnny Davis
@Nilo. Let me pray. Father, God, thank you for sending Nilo to me and Sing, and me to them. The area of the world, that Nilo works now, with others, is dangerous for believers in You, Christians. Continue your protection. In Him.

Nilo del Mundo
sorry Bro. Johnny Davis, I was a Catholic since birth, a Filipino. I wouldn't want to continue in this thread. If you want to continue our discussion, any thing under the sun, we can do so, in another WALL. Thanks

Johnny Davis
Let's leave it for now. If friendship is accepted, perhaps another time, on a subject helpful to us both. There is much about the Catholic people, that I could not accept, to the extent, that I could NEVER become in weekly fellowship. My wife was Catholic, and made a change, similar to yours. Later, as the Ho9ly Spirit leads each of us. .

Sing F Lau
Let me leave a few questions for your thought on the subject.
1. Are there God's children among the great multitudes of Muslims (or whatever religious affiliation)?
- If yes, how did they, who were dead in trespasses and sins even as others, become God's children?

2. Are all of these God's children among the Muslim (or whatever religious affiliation) reached with the gospel and brought to believe the glorious truth of their salvation by the free and sovereign grace of God?

3. What will happen to those children of God among the Muslims (or whatever religious affiliation) that are not reached with the gospel and brought to believe the glorious truth of their salvation by the free and sovereign grace of God?
- Your answer may be, "No such nonsense. Every child of God will be reached with the gospel and be converted."

Johnny Davis, you are free to comment IF you can keep strictly to the subject raised by the question. Otherwise, kindly restrain. Thanks.

PJ Walters
Trying to be as objective as possible, I believe that Bro. Sing is correct both in his understanding of Scripture here, and in representing Nilo's position.

Johnny Davis
Pj Walters Nilo del Mundo
There is scriptural example and words of the covenant to mankind (as quoted in scripture) of the Messiah, which indicates that God's children may exist among God's created individuals, within the Muslim thought process. The covenant says, "All nations will be blessed [by the Messiah]" and s an example in the Old Testament, the Ninevites repented, and were not of the "chosen" people, from a warring land with the Hebrews, and God said they were to Jonah. So, yes, and God provides His grace as HE sees fit, not as ANY man thinks He should do it. Another example. Rahab, not only a woman, but a harlot at that. And, no, I do not know who God allowed her to become HIS child, our sister in the Kingdom of God with Christ, by any human logic. I don't have to KNOW, do I? I believe I know who HE does for me, and perhaps, for those around me, having the same word of God.

Some yes, of course, others, never having the opportunity to "hear" the gospel, by having no representative of God's people, perhaps their brothers and sisters (in righteousness), to "instruct them in righteousness," again, are in the same group, according to my understanding, as Rahab and the Ninevites. It is God's univserve. He will judge, especially those not knowing of Christ, and living by nature. Do either of you fellas, think these are hell-bound, including Rahab and the Ninevites?

Spiritually, in the same boat as all of us Christians, who spend our time, dealing with mintues "points of law." Saved to be with the Father, forever. They do not have to be "converted" to anything. They are "righteous" whether they know what day of the week it is, whether they believe the wind blows because of the rotation of the earth or because the wind-god makes it, etc. Let me say one more word, regarding the "work salvation" creeping in, my opinion of course. Just because we have the bible, just because we obey, just because we jump through the right hoop, does not mean we are "righteous." Like the Hebrew in the New Testament, the teaching was, "there is no advantage." There NEVER was, with God. All the Hebrew nation was, was God's seed through which the Messiah came. And, as a device to present Himself to mankind, ultimately through what we now have as the Holy Bible, through which that "gospel" is spelled out. GOD DOES IT ALL. Man, in the physical, must heed God's words, as it comes to him or her, and that too, the "hearing" of the words of God, is from God's grace. NO GOOD WORK OF THE FLESH will save anyone. NO CORRECT UNDERSTAND OF THE WORD OF GOD (THE BIBLE) will either. Did the good works of Jesus, the perfect keeping of the law (10 commandments), prevent the spiritual death, that properly was the fate of those he died for. No, GOD FORSOOK HIS SON, because of ME (my sin). I am so blessed, to have that word of God, that dewscribes what part of God's spiritual nature HE wants me to know. And that, is what everyone that has not known of that gospel, would be within God's will, to know, even if they be Muslim. In enjoy in the physical, and prayerfully the spiritual as well, the delineation of DETAILS regarding this CENTRAL "gospel message" of what God has been all about, since the sin of Adam. Yet, I will NEVER ALLOW myself, to become a part of hate-tending debates, arguments, proofs, for any reason, especially my being correct. I will gladly discuss points, that I will be led by the Holy Spirit and the word of God to change. Yet, if I do, it will make ZERO difference. I still will speak of the love of God, and my love for Him, and love for others, along with the CENTRAL GOSPEL message. If that is praising "itching ears" in someone's personal human judgement, than so be it. They probably share the same gospel already. And, prayerfully, have a TRUE belief, the HEART of righteousness, that only God can give

PJ Walters
But those Jews did have an advantage:
Romans 3:1 "What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

PJ Walters
Bro. Johnny Davis, I like much of what you have said there, but a couple of things seem a bit odd. God bless you!

Johnny Davis
I'd agree to that, and I was "raving" a bit. Thanks for your fellowship. The covenant deal, in the aggregate forever, in as much spiritual thought as a human can muster, is what I was speaking about. Yet, I do not consider the need to clarify that. This much we can agree on, is that Jesus indeed, was the Messiah, for the whole world, for every human that ever lived, God is no respector of persons, he is loving, he hates sinners because of the imperfection, and his love/hate feelings, or individual sinners, was reconciled by HIM suffering in the form of Jesus, as both deity and personhood (otherwise, what is the big deal - everyone dies, some more horribly, than Christ), and to top it off, the New Testament plainly states that the Messiah was REJECTED by the Jews, his own. So, there was CERTAINLY no advantage to being a Jew, just like it said. Jesus did not turn to the Gentiles, because of rejection. He was a man of sorrows. EVERYTONE rejected him, even his cloeset on earth (Mary and Joesph, there might b e an exception, but let's not "speculate"). Anyway, good to talk with ya. Look forward to another day. ,

Sing F Lau
Never mind... I never get what Johnny want to say... so I don't read him much...
I can't even get beyond this sentence... really!!!

"The covenant deal, in the aggregate forever, in as much spiritual thought as a human can muster."

What covenant deal? What is aggregate, and why forever?

What raving gibberish? You HAVE TO say something not because you have something to say.

Robert Cook Sr.
I was enjoying the discourse! This is a point I wish to learn more about. My problem with Calvinism or sister Arminism is what gospel preached is the right one since you have variants everywhere depending on which seminary was attended.

I know Sing is right, but I am searching to resolve issues like the Apostle Paul was a chosen vessel to God and was ordained by God to both hear and believe to preach the Gospel to the Gentiles, also Jesus chose his apostles and not one refused except Judas who was known from the beginning. I believe that Jesus has preserved his visible church. As to the degree of control, I am lost right now. I do not believe that God sends Calvinists or Arminians to preach the truth I think only the Old school Baptists are preaching the truth and are the true church. I will hope to see more on this discourse.