Then
Peter opened his mouth, and said,
Of a truth I perceive that God is no
respecter of persons:
But in every nation he that feareth him,
and worketh righteousness,
is accepted with Him. Acts 10:35 Apostle Peter had discovered and learned a momentous truth that day.
Have you? |
https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/4281460190210
Jan 27, 2013
SING
You
wrote this on your BLOG*
I
DO BELIEVE that any man who fears God and works righteousness, whatever
religion he is categorized and lumped up with, whether a Muslim or whatever,
COULD not only be a part of God's elect but also a true child of God by God's
free and sovereign grace, and die, and never having been CONVERTED to
Christianity by the gospel ministry, and be found in glory with Jason Sides.
Are
you saying that men can be in heaven without knowing Christ?
---------
*The
Blog post referenced by Nilo is here: https://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2013/07/those-who-fear-god-and-work.html
Sing
F Lau
A very
good question sir. Since you ask, I will give you my answer.
I take for granted that the 'knowing Christ' in your question is something that is intimately
bound up with the gospel ministry... "
Rom
10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how
shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear
without a preacher? 15
And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful
are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of
good things!"
If
you are inquiring about some other form of "knowing Christ', you need to
clarify yourself.
There
are God's children who never had the CAPABILITY to hear and/or the OPPORTUNITY
to hear the gospel, therefore never brought to a knowledge of Jesus Christ.
These enter heaven - just as glorified as others.
So,
an affirmative yes to your question. Men go to heaven because the work of
grace has made them fit for eternal glory. Of these, those that have the ability
and opportunity to hear the gospel, some are brought to a saving knowledge of
Christ. Others are not converted and will be deprived of many blessings for
God's children in this present life.
I
assume that you, together with many others, would insist that every child of
God will and must hear the gospel, brought to a saving knowledge of Jesus
Christ - therefore every single one in heaven go there because they have heard
and believe the gospel... know Christ. In that popular view, a man's entrance
to heaven is DEPENDENT upon the actions of many men... the preachers bring the
true gospel of Jesus Christ to them, their own works of hearing and believing
the true Christ, etc, etc.
The
choice is yours, dear Brother Nilo.
Sing
F Lau
God's
children are converted out of every religion in which they were born and
grow up... whether out of practical atheism, Buddhism, Confucianism, Donkeyism, Earthism, etc... God's children (regenerated elect) are found among
all such!!! [The gospel ministry is intended to seek them out and gather them into NT churches.]
Sing F Lau
The
Lord of Glenn, if what I believe is hyper-calvinism to you, I'm quite happy
with it!
If
you think the eternal salvation of men depends on the preachers' work of
preaching THE GOSPEL, and men's effort of hearing and believing the gospel, I
wish you well, Lord Glenn! I wish you well!
Nilo
del Mundo
I
think I can agree with the statements of BCOF 1689 regarding this:
"From
all eternity God decreed to justify all the elect, and Christ, in the fullness
of time, died for their sins, and rose again for their justification.
Nevertheless, they are not personally justified until the Holy Spirit, in due
time, actually applies Christ to them."
[sing: Question - when does the Holy Spirit, in due time, actually applies Christ to them? When they were still dead in trespasses and sins and apart from the gospel ministry, or when they are under the gospel ministry and upon believing? The popular "justification by faith"? Nilo, you are likely a gospel regenerationist.]
Nilo
del Mundo
Faith
which receives Christ's righteousness and depends on Him is the sole instrument
of justification, yet this faith is not alone in the person justified, but is
always accompanied by all the other saving graces. And it is not a dead faith,
but works by love.
[sing: A man who can exercise faith to receive Christ's righteousness... is ALREADY indwelt by the Spirit who works in him all the saving graces, faith being one of them. "... yet this faith is not alone in the person justified" SCREAMS at you that faith is found in a person ALREADY justified; justification is the cause, and faith is an effect. Do you even understand what you are reading?]
Sing F Lau
"From
all eternity God decreed to justify all the elect, and Christ, in the fullness
of time, died for their sins, and rose again for their justification.
Nevertheless, they are not personally justified until the Holy Spirit, in due
time, actually applies Christ to them." 1689.11.4
From
all eternity God decreed to justify all the elect, and Christ, in the fullness
of time, died for their sins, and rose again for their justification.
Nevertheless, they are not personally justified until the Holy Spirit, in due
time, actually applies Christ to them." 1689.11.3
===========
Nilo,
explain what the Framers meant to you? Surely you must have an idea of what
they are saying before you can agree with them!!!
Nilo
del Mundo
Our
conversation revolves around the TIME of justification
According
to this document, in DUE TIME, the HOLY SPIRIT actually applies CHRIST to them
who are personally justified,
But
you declared in your blog that there are MUSLIMS who do not have CHRIST, and
thus the HOLY SPIRIT has not applied CHRIST to them, and yet they are in heaven
when they die.
[sing: Nilo, your words betray your ignorance of salvation by God's free grace. At God's appointed and approved time, the Holy Spirit applies Christ to God's elect who are dead in trespasses and sins, independent of any human activities. When the Holy Spirit applies Christ to an elect, he is PERSONALLY / VITALLY justified; he was ALREADY LEGALLY justified by Christ; what was LEGAL is now applied to him, and he becomes PERSONALLY justified. This is VITAL Justification by the grace of God; this is distinct from Legal Justification by the blood of Christ, and Practical/Experiential Justification by faith.]
Sing
F Lau
I
have written something on that part of the 1689... read it here if you are
interested...
https://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2012/10/the-doctrine-of-justification-as.html
Things
New and Old: The Doctrine of Justification - as summarized in the 1689 CoF
THINGS-NEW-AND-OLD.BLOGSPOT.COM
Study
it... if you disagree with any part... let's discuss it!
Sing
F Lau
Our
conversation revolves around the TIME of justification"
===========
The
TIME and the SPECIFIC ASPECT of justification: (excerpt from the above article)
May
our Lord bless you with understanding!!!
There
is much more than meets the eyes. We need to go beyond sound-byte!
1689.11 Para
4. The Multi-faceted Jewel of Justification
God
did from all eternity decree to justify all the elect, (11) and Christ did in
the fullness of time die for their sins, and rise again for their
justification;(12) nevertheless, they are not justified personally, until the
Holy Spirit doth in time due actually apply Christ unto them.(13) 11. Gal 3:8;
1Pe 1:2; 1Ti 2:6. 12. Ro 4:25. 13. Col 1:21-22; Tit 3:4-7.
a.
Justification decreed
-
by God for all the elect
-
from all eternity
b.
Justification secured/accomplished legally
-
by Christ for all the elect
-
at the cross
c.
Justification applied personally
-
by the Holy Spirit to each individual elect personally.
-
at effectual calling to grace and salvation.
d.
Justification experienced /evidenced subjectively (para 2)
-
by the faith of the individual elect (those who do hear and believe the gospel)
-
at initial conversion and throughout life.
e.
Justification vindicated finally
-
by God before the judgment throne
-
on the great judgment day
-
Conclusion: Justification decreed, accomplished, applied, experienced, and
finally vindicated.
Some
questions for discussion
Q.
Why it is so necessary to distinguish the various facets of justification?
Q.
How does ignorance in this injure God’s glory and honor?
Q.
How does due recognition of the different facets of justification comfort God’s
children?
Q.
How does ignorance in this detrimental to God’s children?
Sing
F Lau
Nilo
del Mundo said "but you declared in your blog that there are MUSLIMS who
do not have CHRIST, and thus the HOLY SPIRIT has not applied CHRIST to them,
and yet they are in heaven when they die"
=========
Ah,
that's what you think I'm saying! I'm saying no such thing.
You
have to demonstrate that I say such things as you thought!
Try
it, Nilo... and see whether what I actually said is what you thought I say!
This
is what I said, and you quoted verbatim...
"I
DO BELIEVE that any man who fears God and works righteousness, whatever religion
he is categorized and lumped up with, whether a Muslim or whatever, COULD not
only be a part of God's elect but also a true child of God by God's free and
sovereign grace, and die, and never having been CONVERTED to Christianity by
the gospel ministry, and be found in glory with Jason Sides."
========
A
man who fears God and works righteousness is a man to whom the Holy Spirit HAS
APPLIED Christ personally, OTHERWISE the reverence of God and works of
righteousness is IMPOSSIBLE.
A
man who fears God and works righteousness is already ACCEPTED with God... God
has effectually called him for eternal glory, and Christ has been applied to him
personally.
A
man who fears God and works righteousness is already perfectly fitted for
eternal glory... He is made capable of being called out by the gospel. WHETHER
he hears the gospel or not, his place in heaven is assured by the FINISHED WORD
of Christ already APPLIED to him.
Hearing
the gospel and being converted to Christ is very important... not that he may have a
place in heaven... for that is already perfectly settled by the finished work
of Jesus Christ... it is necessary and important for saving a child of God from
lies and falsehood and superstition and ungodliness... it is to save him to the
truth of his salvation by God's free grace!!!
I fear you haven't adequately understood salvation by the free grace of God alone?
p/s Nilo, the Holy Spirit applying Christ to an elect while dead in trespasses and sins (i.e. the APPLICATION of Christ's righteousness to an elect PERSONALLY), and bringing that justified elect to a saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ THROUGH the ministry of the word are TWO completely independent and separate matters. Those who have Christ applied to them are fitted for eternal glory; they alone are capable of being brought to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ through the gospel ministry.
Justification freely by God's grace PRECEDES the conversion through the gospel ministry.
Preston
Walters
Roman
3:3,4 "For
what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God
without effect? God
forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou
mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art
judged."
Sing
F Lau
Preston
Walters, what does the faith of God mean in the passage above?
I'm
always puzzled why the KJ translators did not use the word 'faithfulness' in
the NT, not a single instant! It's used
22 times in the OT.
Thanks.
Preston
Walters
Galatians
2:16 "Knowing
that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus
Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by
the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the
law shall no flesh be justified."
Sing F Lau
Preston,
tell us what you understand by those passages of the Scriptures!
Preston
Walters
I'm
no theologian but I will offer my understanding as best I can. The faith of
Christ is Christ being faithful to himself in keeping his promise to those whom
he loves.
On
a personal note, I would rather know he is faithful because, as a man, I fail
to be 100% faithful. My faith in Christ is a work of righteousness on my part
and since I am apt to waver in my faith and he will not fail in his, I will put
my trust in him.
Nilo
del Mundo
I
think this is a statement that when examined further, it will be indefensible
YOU
WROTE:
"I
DO BELIEVE that any man who fears God and works righteousness, whatever
religion he is categorized and lumped up with, whether a Muslim or whatever,
COULD not only be a part of God's elect but also a true child of God by God's
free and sovereign grace, and die, and never having been CONVERTED to
Christianity by the gospel ministry, and be found in glory with Jason Sides."
I
SAY
It
is impossible for a man to fear GOD and still DENY Christ.
To
not be converted from ISLAM to any kind of open confession of Christ, is to
DENY Christ.
It
is impossible for any man to work the works of righteousness acceptable to GOD
and still embrace until his dying day, any of the religions of this world
If
the HOLY SPIRIT dwells inside a man, it is inevitable but that he will wake up
to the error of his ways, and dead works, and come to the true and living God.
And how can any come to GOD and not come thru His Son?
Preston
Walters
Peter
denied Christ, yet he was chosen. The stillborn infant never chooses and is
not choosing him in denial of him?
With
all respect to Mr Nilo, I agree with bro Sing. Grace covers all and one's denial
or acceptance of him is human works and nothing can separate us from the love
of God......
Sing
F Lau
"It
is impossible for a man to fear GOD and still DENY Christ.
To
not be converted from ISLAM to any kind of open confession of Christ, is to
DENY Christ."
==========
Nilo,
you make one, just one FATAL error in your notion!
How
can such a Muslim, one who fears God and works righteousness, DENY Christ when
he has not even heard of Christ! In your understanding, can you charge a man
for DENYING Christ of whom he has not even heard of? How to be converted from
ISLAM to any open confession of Christ when such a man has not even heard of
the gospel?
Rom
10
14
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall
they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear
without a preacher? 15
And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful
are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of
good things!
Just
who do you think Apostle Paul has in mind - God's children destined for eternal
glory, or those still dead in trespasses and sins?
Nilo
del Mundo
And
you make one fatal error SING
ALL
MUSLIMS have from childhood heard of CHRIST, but in the wrong way.
[sing: you make one fatal exaggeration! If one needs to resort to exaggeration, he has lost his cause! All heard? Who preached to them?]
Sing
F Lau
"If
the HOLY SPIRIT dwells inside a man, it is inevitable but that he will wake up
to the error of his ways, and dead works, and come to the true and living God.
And how can any come to GOD and not come thru His Son?"
================
May
I inquire by asking you a few simple questions? I hope to hear some answers.
-
Does a man who fears God and works righteousness have the Holy Spirit dwelling
in him?
-
Has a man who fears God and works righteousness come to the true and living
God?
- Before Peter preached the gospel to Cornelius, had he come to the true and
living God?
-
Is a man who fears God and works righteousness still doing dead works
-
Did the Arminians who die in their Arminianism wake up to the errors of their
way?
You
asked a question, so I will answer it.
"How
can any come to GOD and not come thru His Son?"
A
man comes to God when God effectually calls him to grace and salvation based
solely upon the finished work of Christ... That effectual call out of the state
of sin and death to the state of grace and salvation is entirely a sovereign
divine work, is WITHOUT human aid.
Open
confession of Christ by such requires the gospel ministry through human
instrumentality. Not all of God's children are blessed with the gospel ministry.
You will believe otherwise... you likely believe that EVERY CHILD of God will
have the gospel ministry brought to him... i.e. every child of God will hear
the gospel, and believe Jesus Christ and make OPEN CONFESSION of Christ.
Johnny
Davis
@Nilo,
for the Muslim, who may indeed be "righteous" and fear the God of the
Universe, to be able to KNOW of Christ, can be had only by a preacher, or the
Holy Bible. If told of Christ, there is no excuse. For, if told, and is truly
righteous as you say, then he or she WILL come to Christ, and thus, come to
God, the Creator. Or, that is what I believe to be factual, as many others here
on this status.
[sing: such may not - for fear of persecution by others who hate Christ. There were secret believers in Christ among the Jews in the time of Christ.]
Nilo
del Mundo
Johnny, Sing
does not speak about KNOWING Christ in the righteous way that we understand it. Sing
alleges that the MUSLIM has not even heard of CHRIST but
SURAT MARIAM is full of references to Messiah. They
call him ISSAH in the KORAN
Sing
F Lau
"ALL
MUSLIMS have from childhood heard of CHRIST, but in the wrong way"
========
An
assertion does not constitute a truth! You heard that before, haven't you?
If
they have heard of Christ but in the wrong way, then have they heard of Christ?
If
they heard of Jesus who is just a man, have they heard of Jesus?
If they have read of Christ who is NOT the Son of God, have they heard of Christ?
Nilo
del Mundo
Ah,
and so I am able to pierce thru your insinuation Sing.
You
allege that the MUSLIM have never even heard of Christ.
But
when faced with the facts that they have indeed heard of Christ, and call him
Massiyah, and born of the virgin Mary, and went up to heaven, and is coming
back again. Then
you double back and say, Yes
they have heard of him wrongly and
that is the same as not having heard of him at all
Sing
F Lau
Nilo,
what does "KNOWING Christ in the righteous way that we [you and whoever]
understand it"? Kindly
elaborate.
Nilo
del Mundo
But
before I let you escape with what I think is your mistake, let us first define
terms about HAVE
NEVER HEARD OF CHRIST which
you allege is the case of a righteous Muslim who you think will go to heaven
even if he does not convert.
[Nilo, I have stated that from the start. Let me repeat here my first comment from above on hearing and knowing Christ; I have defined it; you are not listening BUT just too eager to give own opinions and put words into my mouth!
Here repeating:
===========
A very good question sir. Since you ask, I will give you my answer.
I take for granted that the 'knowing Christ' in your question is something that is intimately bound up with the gospel ministry... "
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!"
If you are inquiring about some other form of "knowing Christ', you need to clarify yourself.
Johnny
Davis
OF
COURSE, if brainwashed, or manipulated by anyone about anything, is knowing of
the existence about what the subject abainst (in the Muslim's case, Christ and
the one God creator). God will judge the individual, as to whether that is
"hearing" or not. Not me. Other humans may do so, of course. Yet,
what I am speaking of with "hearing" is the gospel. That is not
brainwashing as a youth.
Sing
F Lau
Ah,
and so I am able to pierce thru your insinuation Sing.
You
allege that the MUSLIM have never even heard of Christ.
================
When
you make such a statement, I have to assume that to you, Christ may be known
apart from the Holy Scriptures and/or preachers sent forth to preach the gospel
of Jesus Christ out of that Scriptures.
I
assume that you believe that the Quran is capable of giving a saving knowledge
of Jesus Christ. Do I conclude correctly?
Nilo
del Mundo
NO. I
just want you to define your own words. You said, the MUSLIM have never heard
of Christ. Do
you mean, "have never heard of Christ correctly and biblically?"
Or
do you mean "have never heard of Christ, like the pagans in the mountains
have never heard of Christ"
[sing: Why 'no'. You have plainly stated, "... SURAT MARIAM is full of references to Messiah. They call him ISSAH in the KORAN..." You insisted that they know Christ in a righteous way from the Koran! Your own words!]
Sing
F Lau
Nilo,
don't get too excited. I'm here all the time. I'm no coward, and I don't
need to escape.
A Muslim,
or under whatever religious affiliation, under consideration is a man who works
righteousness and fears God.
Johnny
Davis
OK,
not knowing anything of the "Koran" let me make a human judgment,
then. And, you and other readers, can decide for yourself and your CREATOR,
whether it is a spiritual judgment. Surant Mariam, is he the son of God, at the
creation of the Universe, who died on the cross for forgiven, to provide the
creator's grace. In other words, the same Jesus, that was named by Mary, who walked
the earth in the first century, as both man and deity. Yes or No. Such would
constitute belief. If yes, why give the Messiah from the covenant of Abraham, a
different name. If no, then he, is no more Messiah than any other man or woman,
that ever walked the earth, including Mohammad. What Sing and I are doing, I
pray to God through the Holy Spirit, is teaching YOU, of God and Christ. If you
do not believe, then that is you, not Muslims, not even Christians. It is YOU.
God made YOU. Muhammad did not, nor did Surat.
[sing: Johnny, you HAVE TO say something; not because you have something to say. Not knowing anything but still went on blah blah blah. sigh]
Sing
F Lau
Johnny,
may I request you to hold your peace, please.
You
will only muddle the discussion... knowing and interacting with you all this while.
Please
honour my request. Thanks
Nilo
del Mundo
And
can you expand your meaning when you said, "He
has not even heard of Christ! In your understanding, can you charge a man for
DENYING Christ whom he has not even heard of?"
In
your statements here: Nilo,
you make one, just one FATAL error in your notion!
How
can such a Muslim, one who fears God and works righteousness, DENY Christ when
he has not even heard of Christ! In your understanding, can you charge a man
for DENYING Christ of whom he has not even heard of? How to be converted from
ISLAM to any open confession of Christ when such a man has not even heard of
the gospel?
Johnny
Davis
Yet,
on a definite spiritual level, I have been told that the Koran justified
killing infidels, specifically Jews and Christians, who do not accept Mohammad.
That, if true, is in opposition, 180 degrees, to the Holy Bible, the God of
Love, and EVERYTHING spiritual. Where in the Bible, are we told, to kill
infidels. Rather, we are told to LOVE our enemies and do good to those that
despitefully use us. Yes, we are to love you, Muslim killers, if such is what
you are.
Johnny
Davis
God
will tell me to be silent. If I am silent, it will be an answer to prayer, not
a request from any man. For now, I will to pray.
Sing
F Lau
Nilo,
you need to slow down. I will be here a long while. Let's go back to your
words...
You
said these: "It
is impossible for a man to fear GOD and still DENY Christ.
To
not be converted from ISLAM to any kind of open confession of Christ, is to
DENY Christ."
And
I reminded you of a general principle...
A
man who has not heard of Christ CAN NOT be charged with denying Christ... I
believe that is quite simple. If you do charge him, he would rebut and say, how
do you know I will deny Christ? Have you even told me about him? How do you
know I will not believe when you preach him to me? And just how would you
answer???
But
you turn around and insisted that "ALL MUSLIMS have from childhood heard
of CHRIST, but in the wrong way."
If
you insist on such, then I can only conclude that the Quran is ALSO capable of giving a
knowledge of Jesus Christ revealed in the Scriptures alone!
Now,
before you go further, can you just please affirm whether apart from the Holy
Scriptures, there is a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.
Answer
this, and I will answer your request for me to define - "I just want you
to define your own words. You said, the MUSLIM have never heard of
Christ."
Thanks.
Nilo
del Mundo
"The
Holy Scripture is the only sufficient, certain, and infallible rule of all
saving knowledge, faith, and obedience. Although
the light of nature and the works of creation and providence manifest the
goodness, wisdom, and power of God so much that man is left without any excuse,
they are not sufficient to provide that knowledge of God and His will which is
necessary for salvation." BCOF
When
I wrote: It
is impossible for a man to fear GOD and still DENY Christ. To
not be converted from ISLAM to any kind of open confession of Christ, is to
DENY Christ.
I
meant: The
Muslim has heard of Christ from the Koran, just like the Catholics have heard
of Christ from the Bible. Just like the FILIPINOS have heard of Christ from
traditions.
All
of them do not have the saving knowledge of Christ, whether from the Koran or
from the Bible. All of them Deny Christ. Just like the IGLESIA NI MANALO who
deny Christ, who is ANTI CHRIST because they deny the Father and the Son.
But
you said, the MUSLIMS have never heard of Christ, which I understand to be
ignorance on your part of their beliefs, equating them with the pagans in the
mountains who have never heard of Christ.
I
just want to ask you therefore for clarification.
You
know for a fact that MUSLIMS know Christ historically and from the Koran RIGHT?You
know for a fact that they deny that Christ is the Son of God, right? So
they have heard of Christ, but deny the truth about Christ.
Do
we agree on this part at least?
Sing
F Lau
Johnny,
do you know basic courtesy? This is my wall, and I am the lord here!
I
don't tell you to be silent...I request you to hold your peace HERE!
You
are still free to write and make noise EVERYWHERE else!
Why
are you so unhappy! Rejoice Sir! There are a whole lot of places to write and
rave and ramble!
Sing
F Lau
Thanks
Nilo... @ "The Holy Scripture is the only sufficient, certain, and
infallible rule of all saving knowledge, faith, and obedience."
===========
If
that's the case, do you still insist that ""ALL MUSLIMS have from
childhood heard of CHRIST, but in the wrong way"?
From
where do ALL MUSLIMS in your assertion hear of Christ? From their Quran? Or
from Holy Scriptures or from some preachers who preach from the Scriptures?
Ok
ok, you qualified, "but in the wrong way"? Is hearing Christ in the
wrong good or bad? Isn't hearing Christ in the wrong way FAR WORSE than not
hearing any falsehood at all, than having their minds poisoned by falsehood?
Nilo
del Mundo
I'm
with you Sing.
Muslims
and Catholics, and Jews, Atheists, Buddhists, Protestants, and even
Pentecostals, have all heard of Christ, and have believed the wrong way.
So
listening from the KORAN or from the BIBLE doesn't make a person RIGHTLY
believe Christ. Even some Baptists know of Christ the wrong way.
So
all of them have heard of Christ, and God will CHARGE them for believing Christ
wrongly. MATT 7:21
Sing
F Lau
"Muslims
and Catholics, and Jews, Atheists, Buddhists, Protestants, and even
Pentecostals, have all heard of Christ, and have believed the wrong way."
========
That's
a nice assertion but a fatal exaggeration. ! May be you may wish to demonstrate its truthfulness.
Judging
from your assertion, you would have to conclude that men are cast into the lake
of fire because they believe Christ wrongly; and believing rightly secured their place in heaven!
Do
you believe that God requires the non-elect to believe Jesus Christ as their
Saviour also, those whom He did not give Christ to be their Saviour?
Are you SAVED so that you can believe, or are you SAVED because you believe rightly?
Sing
F Lau
Nilo,
I will be back tomorrow. Enjoy
yourself. Keep to the subject... i.e. "...
any man who fears God and works righteousness, whatever religion he is
categorized and lumped up with, whether a Muslim or whatever, COULD not only be
a part of God's elect but also a true child of God by God's free and sovereign
grace, and die, and never having been CONVERTED to Christianity by the gospel
ministry, and be found in eternal glory."
Nilo
del Mundo
I
think the verse I gave says it all. Matt. 7:21
Sing
F Lau
Nilo,
does a man who fears God and works righteousness fit your idea of Matt 7:21?
Nilo
del Mundo
That
is why it is grace, no human effort or understanding can believe CHRIST
correctly.
[sing: therefore, believing correctly plays NO ROLE whatsoever in your salvation. No, believing is an effect and fruit of salvation by God's free grace;
Nilo
del Mundo
Catholics
believe in Christ, Baptists who attend our meetings believe in Christ, but if GOD
does not regenerate them, and bring them to the right knowledge of Christ, they
go to the lake of fire
it
is evidence that they were never chosen from before the foundation of the world
such
as JUDAS who have known Christ, touched him, heard of him, but went to his
place
[sing: so, RIGHT KNOWLEDGE is still a prerequisite for your salvation; without it you will end up in the lake of fire. You have just stated that.
Regeneration by God's free grace DOES NOT guarantee one iota the right knowledge of God. A faithful and sound ministry and good ground hearers will facilitate a right knowledge of Christ Regeneration by God guarantees eternal life and a place in heaven; nothing more is needed; if anything more is needed on man's part, then it is NO MORE salvation by grace alone.]
Sing
F Lau
A
man must be saved first by God's free grace... that's eternal salvation. A man
who fears God and works righteousness EVIDENCES, DEMONSTRATES he is already
regenerated. Such a man needs to be brought to the knowledge of his salvation
by God's free grace. But whether he is brought to that knowledge of His
salvation by God's free grace, he is already made fit for eternal glory...
Hearing
and believing the truth of his salvation by God's free grace will do much good
to him... but this does not make him any more saved than he is ALREADY SAVED by
God's free grace.
A
man's place in heaven is not dependent upon a right knowledge of Christ... it
is solely dependent upon the finished work of Christ APPLIED to him personally
by the Spirit of God, making him perfectly fit for heaven! That's salvation by
grace - purposed by God, accomplished by Christ, and applied to him personally
when he was still dead in trespasses and sins.... perfectly fitting him for
eternal glory. The gospel is SPECIFICALLY INTENDED for such ONLY... the gospel
is true of them alone.
Nilo,
one last word! I hope you have "the right knowledge of Christ..." I
really hope you have the right knowledge of Christ.... else like you say
above... there is a lake of fire for those who do not have the right knowledge
of Christ! Without the right knowledge of Christ is, according to your
standard, evidence that such were never chosen from before the foundation of
the world!
Tremble,
sir! I wish you well!
Nilo
del Mundo
I
hope you have that too SING
[sing: Nilo, my place in heaven is NOT dependent upon a right knowledge of Christ at all; it is dependent upon the finished work of Christ freely and sovereignty applied to me when I was dead in trespasses and sins. I am SAVED in order that I may be brought to know Christ rightly; you must know Christ rightly in order to get to heaven, without it, it will be the lake of fire... I'm just repeating your words, Sir. ]
Nilo
del Mundo
I
agree with what you said above. The basis of salvation is NOT the right
knowledge of Christ but the work of Christ alone.
Where
we differ is your belief that people who have denied Christ or are ignorant of
Christ even though they have a chance to believe in Christ, would still be
taken to be with Christ.
I
believe those who are given the chance to live their lives with norman minds,
in whatever country they may be in, whatever religion they maybe born into, who
were chosen to be with Christ forever, would in their lifetime, experience
regeneration, effectual calling, right belief,
Sing
F Lau
"Where
we differ is your belief that people who have denied Christ or are ignorant of
Christ even though they have a chance to believe in Christ, would still be
taken to be with Christ. "
================
That's
your imagination, Nilo del Mundo.
I
suggest you ascertain exactly what I do believe first, then and only then you
start disagreeing, otherwise you may appear foolish.
I
often remind my children, when you can't even represent the position of another
yet properly, you have not earned your right to dispute! That's my advice for
you too!
Your
fable:
"I
believe those who are given the chance to live their lives with norman
[normal?] minds, in whatever country they may be in, whatever religion they may be born into, who was chosen to be with Christ forever, would in their
lifetime, experience regeneration, effectual calling, right belief..."
Apostle
Paul proves that your fable is wrong!
Many
of God's children among the Jews in his days DID NOT believe Jesus is the
Christ. Go, read Romans 9-11. Thanks.
Did
all those who died as Arminians have the "right belief"?
<LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL>
Nilo
del Mundo
Why
do you play games with words Sing,
YOu
said, A MUSLIM .... (may) die, and never having been CONVERTED to Christianity
by the gospel ministry, and be found in glory
I
interpret it that you believe that
people who have denied Christ or are ignorant of Christ even though they have a
chance to believe in Christ, would still be taken to be with Christ.
You
said, the MUSLIM has never heard of CHRIST, and so I go with the plain meaning
of words as you suggest.
Never
hearing of Christ means ignorance of Christ.
[sing: Never hearing of Christ means ignorance of Christ; it's not the same as the "people who have denied Christ. "Never heard of Christ" because the gospel ministry did not reach them. See Rom 10:14ff]
Sing
F Lau
Nilo,
if you read words into what I said, why do you say that I play games with
words?
You
read words into what I say, and then say I believe what you imagine, and then
say I play games with words!
What
kind of man are you? And when I tell you that your interpretation of what I said
is WRONG, you won't accept it, but say I play games with words? Why won't you
accept what my words mean?
You
see, you INSIST that ALL MUSLIMS have heard of Christ.
Upon
that fiction, you then charge that ALL MUSLIMS have rejected Christ.
And
now you sheepishly amend a little by saying "never hearing of Christ means
ignorance of Christ!
May
I ask then, is ignorance of Christ the same as rejection and denial of
Christ???
May
I ask you, if you have never heard of something, can I accuse you of denying and
rejecting that thing?
And
you assume that my words must be understood in light of your FICTION and
FABLE!!!
You
are just incorrigible!!!
In
fact, you INSIST that ALL MEN without exception, have heard of Christ.
And
therefore all who don't believe are guilty of denying and rejecting Christ!
The
simple fact is, there are multitudes of people, Muslims included, who lived and
died, without ever having the opportunity of hearing the gospel of Jesus
Christ. Without hearing of Jesus Christ - there can be no knowledge of Christ;
without knowledge of Christ, how can there be a rejection of Christ? You don't
seem to see the perversity of your notions!
Very
many in hell have never heard of Christ. They are there because of their sins,
not because they have heard and rejected Jesus Christ. Of course, there are
others that have heard of Christ preached, rightly or wrongly, to them, and
rejected Christ!
Many
in heaven are there NOT because they have heard and believed Christ. They are
there because God purposed to save them, Christ actually saved them, and the
Holy Spirit applied that salvation to them when they were dead in trespasses
and sins. Others have heard and believed the gospel. There are EVEN rejectors
of Christ who are ALSO found in heaven... just ask Apostle Paul about some of
the Jews whom he had to deal with in his days!!! Have you read Romans 9-11 yet?
Do they fit your theology???
I
fear you DON'T quite understand salvation by God's free grace yet!!!
Yours
is still salvation through believism, and worst still believism of the right
believing of Christ!
Based
upon your theory, all the Arminians, because of their wrong beliefs of Christ,
will be found in the lake of fire...
You
can have that... and I hope you believe Christ right and accurate enough to get
you a place in heaven!
Nilo
del Mundo
Sorry
Sing, I understand that our definitions can't meet each other. We are both
talking past each other's meanings although we are both speaking English
You
said I misrepresent you and
I say you misrepresent my position, you just did in your last post
So
we can't go on like this, because it will just be vain jangling. Thanks anyway.
[sing: I have given you the definition of knowing from the start. Let me repeat again:
A very good question sir. Since you ask, I will give you my answer.
I take for granted that the 'knowing Christ' in your question is something that is intimately bound up with the gospel ministry... "
But you insisted that ALL Muslims know Christ but from their Koran!]
Sing
F Lau
Oh
yes, according to your definition, ALL MUSLIMS, and in fact ALL MEN without
exception have heard and known Jesus Christ - even if they never have access to
Scriptures, or preaching from Scriptures! And so, every one in hell are there
because they have denied and rejected Christ. Do I represent you correctly???
Here
are your statements to the effects:
1.
"ALL MUSLIMS have from childhood heard of CHRIST, but in the wrong way...
"
2.
And this is because you believe Quran gives ALL MUSLIMS that knowledge of
Christ... as though outside of the revealed Scriptures a man can have the
knowledge of Christ!
3.
In fact you insisted that ALL MEN, regardless of their religions, have ALSO
heard of Christ. You said this all encompassing statement - "Muslims and
Catholics, and Jews, Atheists, Buddhists, Protestants, and even Pentecostals,
have all heard of Christ, and have believed the wrong way."
Sing
F Lau
My
position is very simple:
A
man who fears God and works righteousness, no matter what religion he was born
in and grew up with and remains in until his conversion to Christ through the
gospel ministry, is a man already accepted by God and will enter eternal
glory whether he is ever converted or not, whether he ever gets to hear the
gospel or not. Hearing the gospel and believing in Christ will bring lots of
blessings to him here on earth! Without it, he is not one jot less fit for
eternal glory.
That's
pretty simple, isn't it? If you don't understand, ask. No need to misrepresent;
no need to interpret my statement with your own definition.
Johnny
Davis
Nilo
del Mundo It is mid-afternoon, in the USA, and hopefully, a good time to share. I
see from your private message, that the discussion with Sing was not over the
distinction between Muslim, and Christian (specifically, Baptist). May I ask?
Were you Muslim, at birth, or "heard" of Jesus, the Gospel, God of
the Universide, etc., becoming Christian in the process? It seems that your
background, is one to share our faith. Yet, I was interested in the Muslim
"kind," more from a devout Muslim. If Christian, I have little need
for God to discuss with you, through my words. Yet, will do so, as you wish. I
misunderstood the nature of the discussion between you and Sing. Sounds like
doctrine, and I could contribute nothing there, not being Baptist,
specifically.
Johnny
Davis
@Nilo.
Let me pray. Father, God, thank you for sending Nilo to me and Sing, and me to
them. The area of the world, that Nilo works now, with others, is dangerous for
believers in You, Christians. Continue your protection. In Him.
Nilo
del Mundo
sorry
Bro. Johnny Davis, I was a Catholic since birth, a Filipino. I wouldn't want to
continue in this thread. If you want to continue our discussion, any thing
under the sun, we can do so, in another WALL. Thanks
Johnny
Davis
Let's
leave it for now. If friendship is accepted, perhaps another time, on a subject
helpful to us both. There is much about the Catholic people, that I could not
accept, to the extent, that I could NEVER become in weekly fellowship. My wife
was Catholic, and made a change, similar to yours. Later, as the Ho9ly Spirit
leads each of us. .
Sing
F Lau
Let me leave a few questions for your thought on the subject.
1.
Are there God's children among the great multitudes of Muslims (or whatever
religious affiliation)?
-
If yes, how did they, who were dead in trespasses and sins even as others, become
God's children?
2.
Are all of these God's children among the Muslim (or whatever religious
affiliation) reached with the gospel and brought to believe the glorious truth
of their salvation by the free and sovereign grace of God?
3.
What will happen to those children of God among the Muslims (or whatever
religious affiliation) that are not reached with the gospel and brought to
believe the glorious truth of their salvation by the free and sovereign grace
of God?
-
Your answer may be, "No such nonsense. Every child of God will be reached
with the gospel and be converted."
Johnny
Davis, you are free to comment IF you can keep strictly to the subject raised
by the question. Otherwise, kindly restrain. Thanks.
PJ
Walters
Trying
to be as objective as possible, I believe that Bro. Sing is correct both in his
understanding of Scripture here, and in representing Nilo's position.
Johnny
Davis
Pj
Walters Nilo del Mundo
There
is scriptural example and words of the covenant to mankind (as quoted in
scripture) of the Messiah, which indicates that God's children may exist among
God's created individuals, within the Muslim thought process. The covenant
says, "All nations will be blessed [by the Messiah]" and s an example
in the Old Testament, the Ninevites repented, and were not of the
"chosen" people, from a warring land with the Hebrews, and God said
they were to Jonah. So, yes, and God provides His grace as HE sees fit, not as
ANY man thinks He should do it. Another example. Rahab, not only a woman, but a
harlot at that. And, no, I do not know who God allowed her to become HIS child,
our sister in the Kingdom of God with Christ, by any human logic. I don't have
to KNOW, do I? I believe I know who HE does for me, and perhaps, for those
around me, having the same word of God.
Some
yes, of course, others, never having the opportunity to "hear" the
gospel, by having no representative of God's people, perhaps their brothers and
sisters (in righteousness), to "instruct them in righteousness,"
again, are in the same group, according to my understanding, as Rahab and the
Ninevites. It is God's univserve. He will judge, especially those not knowing
of Christ, and living by nature. Do either of you fellas, think these are
hell-bound, including Rahab and the Ninevites?
Spiritually,
in the same boat as all of us Christians, who spend our time, dealing with
mintues "points of law." Saved to be with the Father, forever. They
do not have to be "converted" to anything. They are
"righteous" whether they know what day of the week it is, whether
they believe the wind blows because of the rotation of the earth or because the
wind-god makes it, etc. Let me say one more word, regarding the "work
salvation" creeping in, my opinion of course. Just because we have the
bible, just because we obey, just because we jump through the right hoop, does
not mean we are "righteous." Like the Hebrew in the New Testament,
the teaching was, "there is no advantage." There NEVER was, with God.
All the Hebrew nation was, was God's seed through which the Messiah came. And,
as a device to present Himself to mankind, ultimately through what we now have
as the Holy Bible, through which that "gospel" is spelled out. GOD
DOES IT ALL. Man, in the physical, must heed God's words, as it comes to him or
her, and that too, the "hearing" of the words of God, is from God's
grace. NO GOOD WORK OF THE FLESH will save anyone. NO CORRECT UNDERSTAND OF THE
WORD OF GOD (THE BIBLE) will either. Did the good works of Jesus, the perfect
keeping of the law (10 commandments), prevent the spiritual death, that
properly was the fate of those he died for. No, GOD FORSOOK HIS SON, because of
ME (my sin). I am so blessed, to have that word of God, that dewscribes what
part of God's spiritual nature HE wants me to know. And that, is what everyone
that has not known of that gospel, would be within God's will, to know, even if
they be Muslim. In enjoy in the physical, and prayerfully the spiritual as
well, the delineation of DETAILS regarding this CENTRAL "gospel
message" of what God has been all about, since the sin of Adam. Yet, I
will NEVER ALLOW myself, to become a part of hate-tending debates, arguments,
proofs, for any reason, especially my being correct. I will gladly discuss
points, that I will be led by the Holy Spirit and the word of God to change.
Yet, if I do, it will make ZERO difference. I still will speak of the love of
God, and my love for Him, and love for others, along with the CENTRAL GOSPEL
message. If that is praising "itching ears" in someone's personal
human judgement, than so be it. They probably share the same gospel already.
And, prayerfully, have a TRUE belief, the HEART of righteousness, that only God
can give
PJ
Walters
But
those Jews did have an advantage:
Romans
3:1 "What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of
circumcision?
2
Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of
God.
PJ
Walters
Bro.
Johnny Davis, I like much of what you have said there, but a couple of things
seem a bit odd. God bless you!
Johnny
Davis
I'd
agree to that, and I was "raving" a bit. Thanks for your fellowship.
The covenant deal, in the aggregate forever, in as much spiritual thought as a
human can muster, is what I was speaking about. Yet, I do not consider the need
to clarify that. This much we can agree on, is that Jesus indeed, was the
Messiah, for the whole world, for every human that ever lived, God is no
respector of persons, he is loving, he hates sinners because of the
imperfection, and his love/hate feelings, or individual sinners, was reconciled
by HIM suffering in the form of Jesus, as both deity and personhood (otherwise,
what is the big deal - everyone dies, some more horribly, than Christ), and to
top it off, the New Testament plainly states that the Messiah was REJECTED by
the Jews, his own. So, there was CERTAINLY no advantage to being a Jew, just
like it said. Jesus did not turn to the Gentiles, because of rejection. He was
a man of sorrows. EVERYTONE rejected him, even his cloeset on earth (Mary and
Joesph, there might b e an exception, but let's not "speculate").
Anyway, good to talk with ya. Look forward to another day. ,
Sing
F Lau
Never
mind... I never get what Johnny want to say... so I don't read him much...
I
can't even get beyond this sentence... really!!!
"The
covenant deal, in the aggregate forever, in as much spiritual thought as a
human can muster."
What
covenant deal? What is aggregate, and why forever?
What raving gibberish? You HAVE TO say something not because you have something to say.
Robert
Cook Sr.
I
was enjoying the discourse! This is a point I wish to learn more about. My
problem with Calvinism or sister Arminism is what gospel preached is the
right one since you have variants everywhere depending on which seminary was
attended.
I know Sing is right, but I am searching to resolve issues like the
Apostle Paul was a chosen vessel to God and was ordained by God to both hear
and believe to preach the Gospel to the Gentiles, also Jesus chose his apostles
and not one refused except Judas who was known from the beginning. I believe
that Jesus has preserved his visible church. As to the degree of control, I am
lost right now. I do not believe that God sends Calvinists or Arminians to
preach the truth I think only the Old school Baptists are preaching the truth
and are the true church. I will hope to see more on this discourse.
