https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/4072557167765
December 15, 2012
God, being the absolute Sovereign over His
whole creation, DOES NOT need to decree EVERYTHING. But puny men claim
otherwise because they believe that unless God decreed/predetermined
everything, He would not be able to control everything. They think God is weak
and needs such a crutch! Such an idea is really a denial of God's true
sovereignty, and diminishes the glory of His sovereignty!
God did indeed decree a FEW THINGS... namely
those things that pertain to the eternal redemption of His elect people. Such
things are DECREED to display His glorious purpose and grace in the absolute
certainty of those things being fulfilled for the accomplishment and
application and consummation of the eternal redemption of every elect.
The absolute Sovereign actually gives His
creatures full liberty and freedom to act freely as they will, and yet still
remains in control of all things absolutely. This magnifies the true
sovereignty of God! It shuts the mouth of evil men once for all, and they can
be justly held fully responsible for all their actions.
========
PJ Walters
I thought nothing comes to pass but what is
decreed by Him, what He has determined either to do Himself, or by others, or
suffer to be done?
Alan Lloyd
Prove it from scripture please Pastor.
Sing F Lau
Prove what? Which point?
Did God decree your two comments above?
Are they included in "the everything" decreed
by God?
Asking to understand.
Alan Lloyd
Prove your statement that God does not decree
everything that comes to pass from scripture.
Sing F Lau
Did God decree your three comments above?
Are they included in "the everything" decreed
by God?
Alan Lloyd
I understand what you are saying, now prove
He did not decree them from scripture!
Sing F Lau
Don't you think the onus is upon those who
insist that God DID decree EVERYTHING that comes to pass? You give it a try
before I give you the Scriptures.
Ronny Villanueva
Yahweh decreed all of Alan's 3 comments...
Matt:10 29-30 and Matt:12 36-37
Ronny Villanueva
Isaiah: 46 10
Sing F Lau
Thou shalt learn to read the Scriptures
carefully!
Ex 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the
LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his
name in vain.
Mt 10:29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. 30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
Where does this passage speak of God's
decreeing? What is decreed in this passage? Please explain. Thanks.
Mt 12
36 But I say unto you, That every idle word
that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified,
and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
Again, where does this passage speak of God's
decreeing? What is decreed in this passage?
Please explain. Thanks.
Is 46:
Declaring the end from the beginning, and
from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall
stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Again, where does this passage speak of God's
decreeing everything? What did God decree?
Please explain. Thanks.
PJ Walters
What does decree mean?
Ronny Villanueva
why are you telling me that I'm using
Yahweh's name in vain... When Yahweh knows each and every comment Allen makes
here! It's perfectly clear what YESHUA says that a sparrow shall not fall on the
ground without Yahweh!
Sing F Lau
Is that the same as God having decree such in
eternity??? The passages say the Lord knows. Does it say the Lord decreed it?
Thou shalt learn to read the Scriptures carefully. Please show us the passages you quoted speak about God decreeing those acts from eternity!!! Thanks
Charles Page
They say saving faith is predetermined! and
if the faith is not true then it was not predetermined! So the determining
factor is the man! Man is sovereign! God cooperates with the man in salvation!
Charles Page
LIU Shen Bao
Sing F Lau
Pj Walters, this may help:
The Eternal Decree of God:
"God, from all eternity, did, by the
most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain
WHATSOEVER come to pass."
Is your act of asking "What does decree mean?" decreed by God from eternity? Plain honest question!
Ronny Villanueva
I'll stick with the sparrow... put some
thought into it why it fell.
Sing F Lau
God allowed it, that's why! But you quoted
that Scriptures to prove that it was decreed by God in eternity. Now, you prove
to us that God allowing it is the same as God decreeing it from eternity.
Thanks!!!
Ronny Villanueva
it's 4am here... need to go to sleep.
Sing F Lau
Good night BROTHER. The Lord bless you with a
good night rest!!!
Sing F Lau
Kerry, did God prophesy/decree whatsoever
things come to pass?
[Kerry has deleted all his comments...]
Sing F Lau
Did God decree the last lie you told?
<LOL>
Sing F Lau
Read and observe please:
Julius Stewart
Sing, this is a classic case of a reformed
doctrine leading headlong into absolutism. There is no escape from the
determined end of this teaching. God did not decree this either, it's just where
the chips fall.
PJ Walters
'Is your act of asking "What does decree
mean?" decreed by God from eternity? Plain honest question!'
--------
I was asking what the word itself meant, not
the phrase. Lol
Sing F Lau
Kindly read and consider:
Jer 19:5 They have built also the high places
of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I
commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:
Was their building the high places of Baal
decreed by God?
Was their burning of their sons with fire for
burnt offerings unto Baal decreed by God?
Some are compelled by their belief that such
was decreed by God from eternity! Never mind, let them live with such
implications of their belief.
If God did decree that wickedness, then why
did He say did not command it but actually expressly forbidden it (Lev 20:2
"Say to the Israelites: 'Any Israelite or any alien living in Israel who
gives any of his children to Molech must be put to death. The people of the
community are to stone him nor spake of it."
If God did decree those acts of wickedness,
then why did He command against it? Militating His own decree?
If God did decree those acts of wickedness,
then why did He not speak of it? Isn't He for His own decree?
If God did decree such wickedness, then why
did God say that such heinousness had not even come into His mind? Has he
forgotten His own decree?
Never mind, let a man live with the
implications of his belief!
And "Let God be true but every man a liar!"
PJ Walters
That is not something which God caused, but
suffered to be done. He did know it would happen; for He knoweth all things;
but in what way did it not enter into His mind?
Jeremiah 32:35 declares plainly in what way it did not enter into God's mind: it the way to cause Judah to sin.
PJ Walters
DECREE, n. [L. To judge; to divide.]
1. Judicial decision, or determination of a
litigated cause; as a decree of the court of chancery. The decision of a court
of equity is called a decree; that of a court of law, a judgment.
2. In the civil law, a determination or
judgment of the emperor on a suit between parties.
3. An edict or law made by a council for
regulating any business within their jurisdiction; as the decrees of
ecclesiastical councils.
4. In general, an order, edict or law made by
a superior as a rule to govern inferiors.
There went a decree from Cesar Augustus, that
all the world should be taxed. Luke 2.
5. Established law, or rule.
He made a decree for the rain. Job 28.
6. In theology, predetermined purpose of God;
the purpose or determination of an immutable Being, whose plan of operations
is, like himself, unchangeable.
DECREE, v.t.
1. To determine judicially; to resolve by
sentence; as, the court decreed that the property should be restored; or they
decreed a restoration of the property.
2. To determine or resolve legislatively; to
fix or appoint; to set or constitute by edict or in purpose.
Thou shalt decree a thing, and it shall be
established. Job 22.
Let us not be solicitous to know what God has decreed concerning us.
PJ Walters
I might say that God knowing a thing is not
owing to Him having decreed it.
Sing F Lau
Now let me point out some interesting facts
from the 1689 CoF... the context of the decree of God...
Chapter 3 Of God's Decree
1. God hath decreed in Himself, from all
eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and
unchangeably, all things, whatsoever come to pass.
Now note the context of the decree of God -
3. By the decree of God, for the
manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestined, or
foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ,(7) to the praise of His
glorious grace;(8) others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation,
to the praise of His glorious justice.(9)
6. As God hath appointed the elect unto
glory, so He hath, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will,
foreordained all the means thereunto;(13) wherefore they who are elect, being
fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ,(14) are effectually called unto faith
in Christ, by His Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted,
sanctified,(15) and kept by His power through faith unto salvation;(16) neither
are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted,
sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.(17)
The 'all things' in paragraph 1 is in the
context of the redemption of His people, and is co-extensive with "all the
means thereunto" in paragraph 6.
"All things, whatsoever come to
pass" must be understood in its context... just like the word 'word' and
'all' must be understood in its context.
All such acts must be decreed so that each thing decreed must certainly come to pass because the eternal redemption of God's elect is conditioned upon those acts being fulfilled!
Sing F Lau
The only way to absolutely know something is
to ensure that it will happen.
==========
Your statement makes no sense!!!
The Omniscient God knows absolutely everything
without doing anything.
Some puny men think that God must decree
everything in order for Him to know everything. That brings God down to the
level of puny men!
The only way to ensure that something shall
happen is to decree it!!!
And God's decree is with respect to the
eternal redemption of His people!!!
Sing F Lau
His purposes????
No, His purpose...
28 And we know that all things work together
for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to HIS
PURPOSE.
29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did
predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the
firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he
also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified,
them he also glorified.
HIS PURPOSE is the eternal redemption of His people. Whatsoever acts needed for the eternal redemption of God's elect are decreed... therefore their fulfilment is guaranteed! Everything else need not be decreed!
Sing F Lau
Could you explain why you think that I'm
saying "that God has decreed election and not all of life itself."
Thanks.
Sing F Lau
And the subject is not about praising God. If
you have nothing more to say about the subject, then say no more!
The subject is about whether God decreed all things whatsoever come to pass, including this discussion?
Sing F Lau
Then explain why it sounded like that to you.
Surely it is based on what I have written. So what have I written that sounded
like that to you?
PJ Walters
God knows everything that comes to pass, not
because He predestined it, but because He is God.
Sing F Lau
Kerry, please don't copy-and-paste like that.
What does it has to say whether God decreed all things whatsoever come to pass?
Thou shalt not copy and paste things not relevant to the subject. They shall be deleted.
PJ Walters
Kerry, I think it is not shallow, but quite
simple; otherwise, we charge God with authoring sin.
Sing F Lau
Kerry, supposing God ALSO decreed 'all of
life itself' - just what kind of life did He decree for each elect?
Supposing God did decree all of life itself,
then all His elect shall possess "all of life itself" shan't they?
If they don't, then God's decree FAILED.
If all His elect shall possess all of life
itself as decreed, then what kind of life is that? Please tell enlighten us,
thank you.
I say God decreed whatsoever acts are needed
for the eternal redemption of His elect... so each of His elect will experience
all those exact acts, and experience it equally... election, predestination,
effectual call, justification, adoption, etc... unto eternal glory.
In everything else, each of God's elect experiences to VASTLY different degree... because such things are not decreed, and are dependent upon divine providence and human responsibility of God's children.
PJ Walters
If God has decreed (according to the way
decreed is understood in the original post) all things that come to pass, He is
responsible for sin; and none can be justly condemned for sin. If God has
decreed sin, He is responsible for it.
PJ Walters
It is impossible for the possibility of sin
to not exist within a universe in which free will also exist.
PJ Walters
There are things God Himself does, cause
others to do or suffers to be done. Nothing outside of that happens!
You ask why to the other comment. It's self-evident.
PJ Walters
Man's nature is corrupt and constrained to
that corruption based upon the transgression of Adam.
PJ Walters
It is not owing to God.
PJ Walters
Stick to one subject at a time, please!
Lindsey Ward
Sing F Lau, how does God know things, and to
what extent does He know them? Does God know the number of socks in your
sock drawer? and if He does how come to that knowledge?
[sing: God knows the number of socks in my sock drawers because He has decreed in eternity the number of socks I will have at any one time - the answer for your absolutist idea.]
PJ Walters
Christ was given a people regardless of the
fall; Him doing whatsoever necessary to bring them to heaven was never a
point in question. But due to the fall, it was necessary that He provide
Himself a sacrifice for His bride; for that is what a good husband and good
leader would do. These things were not "step one, step two, step
three..." in the mind and purpose of God; but they were, for lack of
better terminology, "simultaneous". God determined Christ would
redeem His people AND (not THEN) consider the fall of man.
Charles Page
Did God make Cain kill Abel? Did he ordain
it, decree it, pre-determine it? I don't think so! Cain chose of his own free
will to kill his brother.
[sing: the absolutists' "God decreed everything" doctrine must necessarily say God did decree Cain to slay Abel.]
Sing F Lau
Kerry Culligan said,
"Wait sing read this first: "But seek ye first the kingdom of God,
and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you (Matt.
6:33)."
Please tell, what has this passage say about
God decreeing EVERYTHING in eternity???????????????
O please, don't grasp at straw to prove one's
fiction.
If you can't do better than this, please give
up! <LOL>
Sing F Lau
Kerry said, "Alright you're on kind of a nutty rabbit
trail now. Everything that happens is what I meant."
========
A nutty rabbit trail?
No, to show that the idea of God decreeing
EVERYTHING in eternity contradicts the rest of the Scriptures!
Sing F Lau
Kerry asked, "Where did even the concept of sin come
from if God is the creator of all things."
===========
God is the creator of all things, and God
decreeing EVERYTHING whatsoever will come to pass is a whole world of difference.
If you can't differentiate the two, you have
lost the plot, sir. <LOOOOOOL>
Come on, don't just blah blah blah for the
sake of blah blah blah. Say things related to the subject - i.e God
decreeing ALL THINGS whatsoever come to pass.
So what is the answer to your question - God decreed all SINFUL acts also, from whence came the concept of sin???
Sing F Lau
Kerry asked: Does God not raise up evil people as a
judgment against sinful peoples. Deuteronomy 28, how can he ensure this?
==========
How does this prove God decreed in eternity
ALL THINGS whatsoever come to pass? You have the idea that whatever God executes
in time He has already decreed in eternity!
How can He ensure that? Must the answer be that He has decreed it in eternity?
Why? He is sovereign, He does what He wills in the governing of the affairs of the world!!!
Sing F Lau
Kerry said: I don't believe in a free will, but rather a
will in man. Man is free to choose according to his nature, but that is most
assuredly constrained by God.
=========
Without true free will, there is NO BASIS for
the moral government of God over His moral creation.
"Man is free to choose according to his
nature" is ALREADY an admission and affirmation that man's will is free.
A will in man that is free according to his nature is free... and therefore he is fully accountable and answerable for all his actions.
Sing F Lau
Kerry said this: "Pj IMO you have a concept of a God and a
subordinate god operating at the same time in your theology. That subordinate
god might be satan, free will, sin, time or something other than that. But
there is only one God. He is not fighting anyone for His will to be
accomplished.
==============
LOOOOL! This is just pathetic!
The One Sovereign of His creation gives all
His moral creatures all the freedom and liberty to be had, and they remain
forever creatures. And however they may want and choose to behave, the One
Sovereign still rules over all, and has His will alone accomplish.
He sits on His thrones and laughs at the
folly of men's rebellion against Him... (You and your friends will insist that those rebellions against God had been decreed in eternity too!!! A perverse god
is against what he himself had decreed! <LOL>
A God that has to decree whatsoever things come to pass in order to be sovereign over His creation is the figment of puny man's imagination! A little Napoleon has the need of such an idea to remain in control!!!
Sing F Lau
Lindsay Ward inquired: "How does God know things, and to what
extent does He know them? ... Does God know the number of socks in your sock
drawer? and if He does how come to that knowledge?
+++++++++++++++++
Your answer would be: Because God decreed all
things whatsoever come to pass.
Your humanistic reasoning: If He hadn't
decreed all things whatsoever come to pass, He wouldn't have known a single
thing!
You imagine that God had the need to decree the
number of socks in my sock drawer, because it is of utmost significance that I
must have that precise number of socks in my sock drawer... such that He
actively order all the events in my life so that I have that exact decreed
number of socks!
I almost wish to swear at such an imbecile idea
of God's sovereignty in decreeing such things as fixing the number of socks a
man ought to have! The issue of the decree of God is absolutely and completely
trivialized!!!
God is omniscience! He does not need to
decree IN ORDER TO know! That's the idea of PUNY MAN imposed upon the INFINITE
God!!!
As I said at the beginning: such an idea (God must decree all things in order to know all things) is actually an attack upon the attribute and character of God! It diminished and detracts from God's glory!
Sing F Lau
Kerry said: It is both. God's ordination but man's sin.
How else could God have ensured that Christ would have died for the sins of
man? He had to preordain the murder. He was the lamb slain from the foundation
of the world. As I said before, the will of man is contextualized within the
will of God.
++++++++++++++
The life and death of Christ, intimately
related to the eternal redemption of God's people, were decreed... because
without it being decreed, it may not come to pass. It is decreed, and shall most certainly
come to pass. They are a few of the many things decreed by God in eternity. And
what God has ordained, the second causes freely brought to pass what God had
decreed. God did not decree Judas to betray Christ, unless you want to believe
that God condemned the very things He himself has decreed! Judas, out of his
own free will, betrayed Christ.
The lamb WAS NOT slain from the foundation of
the world. "From the foundation of the world" is related to the
writing of the names in the book of life. The lamb slain is a further
description of the book of life. It is the book of life of the lamb slain.
Rev 13:8 "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
Sing F Lau
Kerry said, "You can see here that the Lord does indeed
cause events to occur that indicate Him as the one superintending it although
the will of man is in accordance with the said destruction:
=============
BASIC error: That the Lord does indeed cause
events to occur is now EQUATED WITH and HAS REPLACED "God decreed all
things whatsoever come to pass."!!!
That God actively exercises rule over His
moral creation is now equated as God decreed all things whatsoever come to
pass!!!
That's a long leap from point A to point B! Please go and join the Olympics in Brazil in 2016! <LOL>
Sing F Lau
Please, Brethren, It takes great discipline to stick to the
subject! Don't grasp at a straw to prove your idea. Say something that deals with the subject.
God's decree of all things whatsoever come to
pass MUST BE understood in the context of redemption... as the framers of the
confessions clearly stated. So many misguided men wrest this from its context and make silly statements that bear false witness...
Now I know why I wear socks full of holes... I have probably reached the maximum number of socks decreed I can have in my lifetime... I would love to tell this story to my congregation! <LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL>
Lindsey Ward
Sing F Lau, your silly and disrespectful
answer clearly reveals that you have not considered the weight of the question
before you. The question of God's epistemology and man's epistemology is at the
heart of the difference between the creator and His creature. Consider Hebrews 1
where it is revealed to us that God not only created all things but that all
things are upheld by Him.. therefore it is a necessity for God to decree all
things from the beginning whatsoever comes to pass ...you might need to
rethink a few things you are sounding like an Arminian.
Sing F Lau
Lindsay Ward, if I sound silly and
disrespectful, you sound illogical and irrational <LOL>
This is what you said: "consider Hebrews
1 where it is revealed to us that God not only created all things but that all
things are upheld by Him ..therefore it is a necessity for God to decree all
things from the beginning whatsoever comes to pass."
"... all things are upheld by Him... THEREFORE it is a necessity for God to decree all things from the beginning
whatsoever comes to pass."
That's the most illogical and irrational
"THEREFORE" I have come across! Rave on, Brother! <LOL>
There are good reasons why all things are
upheld by Him APART from the fiction that He had decreed all things from the
beginning whatsoever comes to pass!!! If He had decreed all things whatsoever
come to pass, there would be no need of UPHOLDING... whatever is decreed shall
most certainly come to pass!
Got to run for my evening service!
Sing F Lau
Kerry, could you define for us what God did
when He decreed a thing. Thanks.
And please don't entertain the SILLY idea
that God decrees in time!!! <LOL>
Lindsey Ward
Well sing I guess you have never read Isaiah
46
Sing F Lau
Oh no, Lindsay, I have never. And now maybe
you want to show me from Is 46 that God decreed in eternity ALL THINGS
whatsoever come to pass. Thanks.
Sing F Lau
Hey Kerry, you are so easily distracted. What
you said in the last comment is true... but that is not the same as God decreed
all things whatsoever come to pass. Yes, God's decree is worked out in TIME in
His works of creation, providence, and redemption... your point on these are correct.
Lindsey Ward
From Isaiah 46 tel:512%20544%205253
Sing F Lau
It's bedtime for me now... so I will set this
thread to "ONLY ME."
I will switch it to back to "Public"
in the morning. I don't want to see a long list of ravings <LOL> when I wake
up!
If you have some inspired thoughts, call me on 60-4-1234567
Lindsey Ward
iPhone not the best for this but u was
trying to post Isa 46:9-10
Sing F Lau
Lindsey, that passage has been debated on
bible students' forum endless times... it is your privilege to prove your
point... that those two verses show God decreed from eternity ALL THINGS
whatsoever come to pass.
I will hear from you tomorrow. Thanks.
[no further comments
