Things New and Old: June 2019

The following exchanges took place in this Facebook post:
https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/10202237561875957:0

When will the hypo - whether Arminians or their cousins haughty Calvinists - ever learn the truth of "grace alone" and stop throwing around terms carelessly?

sing

Eternal salvation by divine grace ALONE:

- God ALONE purposed that salvation for all elect before time.

- Christ ALONE accomplished that salvation for all elect at the cross.

- The Holy Spirit ALONE applies that salvation to each elect personally.

- These divine activities ALONE make a man perfectly fit for eternal glory.

- Nothing more is needed for a man's eternal salvation. 'It is finished!'

'Grace ALONE' means 'grace PLUS nothing,' not 'grace PLUS something." But the latter is really what many people actually believe!

Timely salvation (deliverance that pertains to the present life on earth) is conditioned upon the activities of God's children.

- These divine activities enable a child of God to perform activities that will secure for him deliverance in the life here and now.

There is the eternal salvation that was already purposed and accomplished and applied to those dead in trespasses and sins.

And there is ALSO the timely salvation that God's children must work out for themselves with fear and trembling, in obedience to their Father's will for them.

Distinguish the two, and don't confuse them.

Is your eternal salvation by grace ALONE plus nothing?

https://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2012/07/is-it-by-grace-alone-or-grace-plus.html

Ante Zivkovic
Lol. The 3 alones.

sing
Salvation is purposed for all the elect by God ALONE.

Salvation is accomplished for all the elect by Christ ALONE.

Salvation is applied to an elect personally by the Spirit ALONE.

Salvation already freely and sovereignly applied/bestowed personally is experienced through faith ALONE.

Charles Page

I can't get the moderated Calvinist to even admit that hypo-Calvinism is an aberrant Calvinist theology. They will eventually name Norm Geisler because he is a 2 or 3 point Calvinist.

But for the sake of discussion a hypo-Calvinist is one who also claims to be a 5-point Calvinist. They think you can't claim 5-point Calvinism and be a hypo. (They have moderated the five points to accommodate a universal atonement, hypothetically. They have moderated the death of Christ on the cross to be a metaphorical death for all (in fact they deny the actual substitutionary aspect by say Christ only metaphorically bore the sin of man and not actually bore the full extent of the guilt, only the shameful punishment) and the actual effect transpires at the moment the unregenerate sinner believes! This is a hypothetical universal atonement that accommodates a limited/particular atonement.

This is a grievous disservice to Christ and what he suffered on the cross!

Steven Ledwith
Then what is the purpose of this?

Romans 10:14-15 ESV

How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!”

sing
What is the purpose of what?

What is Paul saying in Rom 10:14-15?

Perhaps if you can tell us that, there is something to work on. I don't want to assume what you want to make the passage say.

Here is the text (KJV)

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

My questions:

1. Who are they that shall call upon the Lord and believe in Him through the hearing of the preaching of the gospel?

- Those whom God has already bestowed with eternal salvation? Or those who are still in their native state of sin and death? if there is a third group, please tell us.

- Who are the subject under consideration?

2. Those who shall hear, call upon the Lord and believe in Him through the preaching of the gospel, what are the effects of their activities?

- do they obtain eternal salvation?

- do they obtain knowledge of their salvation, and the various blessings flowing from it?

Put it in another way, what is the function of the gospel ministry?

What does it do, and accomplish?

Thanks.

Steven Ledwith

So you answer my question with questions.

The Gospel is the power for salvation to all who believe. The elect are not saved until they receive the Gospel. The elect will receive the Gospel.

No one is born again (regenerated) until receiving the Gospel.

But hey I'm not very smart.

sing
I'm kindly saying that it is very irresponsible to quote Scriptures WITHOUT telling what you want to say from the passage. And my questions are INTENDED to help you to rightly divide the truth of that passage... by DRAWING OUT what it does say... and to prevent you from reading your own idea into it!!!

The devil quotes Scriptures much better than many, and I'm not even impressed with him. So I won't be impressed with just quoting of Scriptures.

Steven Ledwith
So do you refuse to share the Gospel?

sing
"No one is born again (regenerated) until receiving the Gospel. "

======

I hope you don't mind me reminding that a man not born again is still a man in his native state of sin and death and this makes him incapable of any spiritual activities like hearing, believing and calling on the Lord Jesus Christ.

If we cannot agree on this point, we are on completely different pages.

sing
So do you refuse to share the Gospel?

=====

Why do you say that?

The fact that you say such STUPID (lacking common sense) thing shows that you still don't understand what I'm saying.

You are saying that the preaching ministry is necessary for a man's eternal salvation.

I'm saying that the gospel ministry is only necessary for the temporal salvation of God's children, those whom God has freely and sovereign bestowed eternal salvation while still dead in trespasses and sins.
(You accused me of saying the gospel ministry is unnecessary at all.)

Understand first, before you start arguing and disagreeing. Otherwise, hold your peace. THANKS.

Steven Ledwith
Ad hominem attacks really?

Romans 10:14-15 ESV

sing
A certain Eddie Brooklyn shared the above post on SOVEREIGN GRACE and IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS DEFENDED's timeline.

Someone made this comment:

"Honestly Sing F Lau sounds a bit more like a Primitive Baptist who teach this nonsense which boils down to God accomplishing ends without means and is spiritual and logical suicide. This is NOT Calvinism at all. Then these heretics brand the consistent 5 points Calvinist as a "Moderate" Calvinist, a deceptive term popularized by Norm Geisler who was so Arminian; it was pathetic! Adrian Rogers does the same. As a Calvinistic Reformed Presbyterian, I resent their lies and half-truths. One of their ilk I will not name is really posting copiously and deceiving many. I say, be what you are and quite the deception. Primitive Baptists usually flatly deny being Calvinists. IMHO."

My response to the above comment:

He is interested in Calvinism. I'm not. I'm interested in what the Scriptures declares, and rightly divide them.

He is selective in stating what I said.

I stated BOTH of this:

- that in eternal salvation, God accomplishes that end WITHOUT means,

- that in temporal salvation, God has ordained means and commanded those means to be used to accomplish the ends, i.e. the temporal salvation of His children.

I concluded the post above thus:

Conclusion:

"Grace alone" deals with eternal salvation by the activities of the Triune God alone.

"Means and instruments" deal with the temporal salvation, the spiritual WELL BEING of those BEINGS ALREADY freely and sovereignly bestowed with eternal salvation

========

He, like ALL Calvinists, without exception, insist that God uses means to accomplish the eternal salvation of His elect, thus fatally failing to rightly divide the end accomplished by Divine grace ALONE, and the end accomplished through means and instrument alone!

I want to show that the Calvinists SYNERGISM is actually SPIRITUAL as well as LOGICAL SUICIDE.

Spiritual suicide:

what about those elect who are incapable of responding to the means? What will happen to them? These Calvinists may smugly retort, "there is no elect among them, all elect are capable of responding to the means!" If they can prove that fable from Scriptures first, it would be good.

If the eternal salvation of God's elect is hinged upon means, then the eternal salvation of some elect is undone, cannot be accomplished.

It is when the eternal salvation of His elect is entirely in His hand alone that it can be sure to all the elect.

Logical suicide:

There are too many contradictions and inconsistencies to mention.

Many of them are pointed out in the series of 11 articles here:

https://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2012/10/damnable-heresy-1-considered.html

Things New and Old: Damnable Heresy 1: considered.

THINGS-NEW-AND-OLD.BLOGSPOT.COM

sing
Then a certain Robert Basham made this comment:

A hyper-Calvinist is someone who either:

Denies that the gospel call applies to all who hear, OR

Denies that faith is the duty of every sinner, OR

Denies that the gospel makes any "offer" of Christ, salvation, or mercy to the non-elect (or denies that the offer of divine mercy is free and universal), OR

Denies that there is such a thing as "common grace," OR

Denies that God has any sort of love for the non-elect.

All five varieties of hyper-Calvinism undermine evangelism or twist the gospel message.

=========

All these points have been considered and disposed of nicely in this series of 11 articles here:

https://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2012/10/damnable-heresy-1-considered.html

Things New and Old: Damnable Heresy 1 considered

THINGS-NEW-AND-OLD.BLOGSPOT.COM

Steven Ledwith
If they can't respond how do you know they are elect? You make an assumption! I make no assumption but share, the Gospel and leave the rest to God who sovereignly chooses. But I share the Gospel.

Romans 10:14-15 ESV

sing

Steven, you are going in a circle. That's funny.

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

It doesn't say, "rightly quoting"!!!

Steven Ledwith

I am rightly dividing the word. You are free to disagree but you have to convince me of your view with scripture, not rhetoric.

sing
In Romans 10:14-15, Paul is speaking of the necessity of preaching the gospel. Without it, God's children will not hear the gospel, the truth of their salvation. Not hearing the gospel, they won't call on the Lord nor believe in the Lord.

Paul's rhetorical questions assume and presuppose a specific and particular audience - those capable of hearing spiritual things, calling upon the Lord, and believing in Him.... and such HAVE to be God's children, those ALREADY SAVED by God. "Except a man be born again, he cannot see... not enter the kingdom of God.

You say they must, and can act first then they are born again!!!

sing

If you are rightly dividing the word of truth, then you are right, and I'm wrong. Why would you want me to convince you of some errors! That sounds stupid (lacking common sense) to me. Why would I want to waste time convincing of what you have declared as errors!

Good night.

sing
Yoel, I was trying to save a man drowning in his own errors. He resisted and chose to remain where he is.

That's my perspective. You have the liberty to say what you want. If a man cannot be reasoned with, then he needs to be shown and made aware that he cannot be reasoned with! That may be the first step to his salvation from fables.
(Yoel deleted his comments.)

Steven Ledwith
Sing you totally misquoted me.

sing
Steven, you have the full privilege and liberty to prove and demonstrate that I have done so.

Marty-Sandy Smith
The gospel of Jesus Christ, as preached by men, is food for regenerated children of God. Just as one cannot benefit from natural food unless he already has natural life, one cannot benefit from the spiritual food of the gospel until he already has eternal life.

Thus, eternal life must be transmitted to the non-regenerated elect by the creative, monergistic, irresistable work of God alone. That's why a regenerated person is a new creation - if the process were synergistic, he would be a new evolution, the survival of the spiritually fittest.

The preaching of the gospel is the power of God unto salvation from spiritual hunger, darkness, error, fear, and ignorance. But it is not the power of God unto salvation from death in trespasses and sins - only God Himself is the salvation from that.

Gen 28:15 And, behold, I am with thee,
and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest,
and will bring thee again into this land;
for I will not leave thee,
until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.

Perseverance / Continuance of the saints in the state of grace! (Lo, I didn't say 'Perseverance of the saints in a life of faith and holiness'! If you can't differentiate the two, you do have some serious problems! You are infected with the dreaded soundbytitis disease.)

1. Those whom God, by His power and grace alone, has called out of their native state of sin and death to that state of grace and eternal salvation in Christ Jesus, He shall also, by the same power and grace keep them in that state of grace. Therefore they continue/remain in that state.

2. Such "can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere (i.e. remain/continue) therein [i.e. the state of grace] to the end, and be eternally saved.

3. This perseverance/continuance of the saints in the state of grace depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father, upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ and union with Him, the oath of God, the abiding of His Spirit, and the seed of God within them, and the nature of the covenant of grace; from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof."

4. The perfections of God guarantee the saints remaining/continuing in the state of grace unto eternal glory: (Gill book 6, chapter 15)

- The immutability of God guarantees it

- The wisdom of God guarantees it

- The power of God guarantees it

- The goodness, grace and mercy of God guarantees it

- The justice of God guarantees it

- The faithfulness of God guarantees it

5. The perseverance/continuance of the saints in the state of grace is guaranteed by God.

- The perseverance of the saints in the state of grace is VASTLY DIFFERENT from the perseverance of the saints in a life of faith and holiness through their obedience to God's will.

- The former is the gospel truth, the latter a fable and a lie.

The former is guaranteed, the latter is not. Saints are exhorted to work out their own salvation with fear and trembling. Some make shipwreck of their faith but they don't fall from the state of grace. The Lord said, 'My people are bent on backsliding..."