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| Supra - dragonfly carrying the twig, infra - dragonfly resting on the twig, or contra - dragonfly holding down the twig? |
An example of how a good conversation turns bad...
MON 5:58PM
MON 5:58PM
Smark: What's ur stand supra or infra?
sing: What do you mean by those terms? Tell me and then maybe I'm able to answer your question.
Smark: Supralapsarianism or infralapsarianism?
sing: I know; what do you mean by those terms?
Smark: What's ur position?
sing: Give me the definitions of those two terms, then I will be able to tell you what I believe.
Smark: Infralapsarianism (“after the lapse”) puts God’s decrees in the following order:
(1) God decreed the creation of mankind,
(2) God decreed mankind would be allowed to fall into sin through their own self-determination,
(3) God decreed to save some of the fallen, and
(4) God decreed to provide Jesus Christ as the Redeemer.
Infralapsarianism focuses on God allowing the fall and providing salvation.
Supralapsarianism (“before the lapse”) puts God’s decrees in the following order:
(1) God decreed the election of some and the eternal condemnation of others,
(2) God decreed to create those elected and eternally condemned,
(3) God decreed to permit the fall, and
(4) God decreed to provide salvation for the elect through Jesus Christ.
Supralapsarianism focuses on God ordaining the fall, creating certain people for the sole purpose of being condemned, and then providing salvation for only those whom He had elected.
sing: The way you put it, I reject supralapsarianism. Are the definitions your own words, or did you copy and paste it from somewhere? Give me the source. Thanks.
Smark: What? He is a sovereign God. He chose us before all.
No. I've studied that. No. From my own studies. Explain why u reject supra
sing: First thing first:
Both infra and supra equally acknowledge and magnify the sovereignty of God. If you disagree, then you need to show that one does it more than the other. Please note, I said, "The way you put it, I REJECT supralapsarianism." That's why I asked whether you copied and pasted the definitions, or they are your understanding of the terms.
Supra and infra deal with the LOGICAL ORDER of God's eternal decrees, all of them free and sovereign, since they took place before time, i.e. in eternity.
sing: (1) God decreed the election of some and the eternal condemnation of others.
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a. I reject double predestination. I believe in election and preterition. God elected many and bypassed the rest.
b With (1) as the first, what was there to elect and to condemn? What was the object of the election and the condemnation?
Smark: Infra. is after the fall am I right? So if God chose after the fall, so the decree is after the fall?
If after the fall. He is not a sovereign God? He's not the planner of everything.
All things are always from His sovereign control. Infra. is after the fall am I right? So if God chose after the fall. .so the decree is after the fall?
sing:
Supra and infra deal with the LOGICAL ORDER of God's eternal decrees, all of them free and sovereign, since they took place before time.
Do you understand the above statement?
Smark: Yes, I understand that. God chooses for salvation. And condemned the others. God is sovereign and powerful; all wisdom is from Him. We have a right or high position to question that?
No! God is sovereign; He chose The elect before all.
In infra. .God is not sovereign...bcoz His election is bound of time.
sing: The way you reason is evidence that you DON'T understand what supra and infra are about. When I get to my laptop I write more.
Smark: U have a book??
sing: @ In infra. .God is not sovereign...bcoz His election is bound of time.
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Where did you get the idea that election in infra is bound in time?
Smark: From my own study and according to my classmates in gma.
sing: You defined infra like this:
Infralapsarianism (“after the lapse”) puts God’s decrees in the following order: (1) God decreed the creation of mankind, (2) God decreed mankind would be allowed to fall into sin through their own self-determination, (3) God decreed to save some of the fallen, and (4) God decreed to provide Jesus Christ as the Redeemer. Infralapsarianism focuses on God allowing the fall and providing salvation.
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So where does it say the election is AFTER the fall (something that happened in the garden of Eden)?
You are confused about one most important thing. All the decrees HAPPENED in eternity, before the actual creation and the subsequent fall.
Who is your instructor in gma?
Smark: Bakit mo tinatanong hindi mo ba kilala?
sing: You are speaking in tongue. Get an interpreter.
Infra and supra deal with the LOGICAL ORDER of the decrees of God in eternity. Therefore, in both order, the Triune God is equally sovereign.
The decrees of God on creation, fall, election, provision of the redeemer - whatever ORDER you want to put them - ALL of them took place before time, in eternity, BEFORE the fall which took place in time, in the garden of Eden.
You need to understand this statement to avoid the many mistakes and confusion already shown by your questions and statements on the subject.
Smark: U have a book??
sing: Study THE Book.
Smark: Ur approach is not pastoral approach; be careful brother, maintain the spirit of meekness.
sing: I'm so sorry you don't like my approach. Look for someone whose approach you like. Thanks.
Smark: Ok. Ptr Nxxx is good.
sing: It is not pastoral to point you to THE Book?
Smark: I'm sorry. Doctrine is important but doctrine without humility isn't acceptable before God. "knowledge puffed up" I’m also a pastor. Brother, be careful; be like Jesus in character!!!
sing: Who is puff up? Who is without humility? I fear you are the one, young man.
Smark: Pro 15:33 The fear of the LORD is the instruction of wisdom; and before honour is humility.
sing: When you can't cope with the truth I set before you, you fuss about my approach. I'm surprised. Do you have humility? Are you puffed up?
Thanks, Smark. Go and find someone whose approach suits your character and personality. Thanks for the exchange.
Smark: Pro 15:1 A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger.
sing: ??? Who has spoken grievous words? Who has given a loud answer?
You asked for a book, I point you to THE Book, and you are upset! What's the problem with you? Is sola scriptura just a shibboleth?
Smark: Heb 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
sing: You ARE A pastor; "I’m also pastor", said you!
Goodbye, Mark.
Smark: I want you to be my friend. .and my instructor in theological aspect but you try to discourage me 😢
12:31AM
sing: You are discouraged because I tell you the truth and make you think through what you have said? Then you need to look for someone who agrees with you and praise your beliefs whether they are biblical or not.
I'm saddened by your attitude of learning. Even mighty Apollos was helped by Priscilla and Aquila.
Smark: I agree with u. But I'm trying to ask but ur manner in our chat is so very aggressive; we both Christian.
sing: The problem is very simple: you don't like it when I graciously showed you that you are confused and have not understood the subject. Instead, you find fault with my approach. What is so aggressive to rightly divide the word of truth? Were the Bereans aggressive by searching the Scriptures daily to see if when Paul taught were true? You have a learning problem.
I'm done. Have a good day.
I'm done. Have a good day.
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I’m flabbergasted with sincere folks who can’t stick to the subject they raised; instead, they resort to personal attacks.
