Sing F Lau
Peter @ "...We are saved by faith in his grace. Grace was extended, faith engaged that, and Jesus underwrote the transaction in a blood oath and an unchangeable testament."
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Full of soundbites, devoid of sense or reason.
Faith is an effect of salvation; an effect of salvation can't possibly be the means by which salvation is attained.
Breath is an effect of life; it can't possibly be the means by which life is obtained.
You and I are on different tracks on a most fundamental doctrine. Let's just agree to disagree. I don't wish to waste more time responding to you.
The way God saves sinners dead in trespasses and sins, which enables them to believe, and the way believing saves the believing ones are two distinct matters.
The former deals with sonship, in which man is completely helpless; the latter deals with discipleship God's children, in which they are actively involved.
Biblical distinction is the essence of sound theology.
Sing
I'm done with you after this. Go and argue with God.
Romans 9
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Sing
Some rely on lies to give hope; I don't. Lies are often simplistic; the simple love them.
Over-elaboration? Is "son, your faith in Jesus Christ is evidence that God has saved you, even as your breath is proof of life in you" an over-elaboration?
Sing
Peter @ "Paul is defending the setting aside of a chosen people for all people."
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The election of a vast number of people out of every nation unto eternal salvation in Christ Jesus - the truth that you are choked over - and the election of an earthly nation (the Hebrews) from which the Messiah would come, and the setting aside of that same nation (in 70AD) are two vastly different matters.
Until you distinguish the two, confusion will continue, soundbyte will drown out sense.
Sing
Is fine, we don't need to walk together if we are agreed.
Amos 3:3 "Can two walk together, except they be agreed?"
You insist "we are saved by faith ..."
I insist "faith evidences our salvation..."
If we can't agree on that basic matter, there is no further point discussion.
Sing
Peter@ "To a boy who had been taught about purgatory and indulgences, the gospel was as revolutionary as Paul learning that grace replaced the law - tough for a Jew whose reputation depended on the latter."
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The gospel?
The boy should have been told the gospel, "whosoever believes has eternal life; the believing ones already have eternal life." That would be truly revolutionary.
Replacing one form of work with another form of work is no good news.
Believing in Jesus Christ is WORK.
John 6
¶28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
¶ 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Sing
Thanks Peter.
Sing
"The gospel starts with 'God loves you and calls you to believe in his son who died for you", not with a theological diatribe. "
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That's where the trouble lies.
The good news is, God so loved, through His Son Jesus Christ, that He FREELY and SOVEREIGNLY gives eternal life to those dead in trespasses and sins [a biblical truth you HATE and LOATHE, it seems]; whosoever believes has eternal life.
Faith is an effect of salvation, not the means to secure salvation.
To my simple mind, you are just beating around the bush, moving from one point to another. If you are unwilling to stick to the original point, salvation is NOT by faith, I suggest you should hold your peace. Why waste time going round and round?
Steve Woods
If true, that makes me and me alone the savior of me. If Christ did the same for all yet none are saved except they who do something (anything, believe, accept, receive, whatever) then what Christ did makes no difference I am not saved by what he did if what he did for all does not save all then none are saved by him but only by the thing they do whatever it may be they must do.
That is the most Christ dishonoring doctrine.
Matthew Jeremiah Fitzgerald
I wish that the post said: Salvation is by grace alone through faith.
Sing
Better wording, but still means the same thing to many people. Take a look here, an article on that passage in Eph 2
Matthew Jeremiah Fitzgerald
I was just concerned because some folks think that the faith is what we possess and that could imply human effort.
Sing
Faith, if referring to man's act of believing, is work, no matter how it is put. Believing is man's activity engaging his mind, heart, and will.
John 6
28¶Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29¶Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
The grace of faith, which makes believing possible, is a saving grace worked in a child of God by the indwelling Spirit of God. But believing is work of God's children, required of God from His children. God's children are required to believe the truth their salvation in Jesus Christ, FREELY bestowed upon them by God.
Sing
Peter, let me be blunt with the silly but sentimental notion of God OFFERING to all the salvation accomplished by His Son Jesus Christ.
Go and offer your nice house to those dead folks in the mortuary. I hope you get the simple point. Maybe not, because you WILL NOT to differentiate God's sovereign act of freely applying that salvation to those dead in trespasses and sins, THEN calling them to believe the truth of their salvation freely bestowed upon them to experience the blessings of that salvation.
Sir, you did not play any role in your being brought into being by your parents. Having been brought into being, as a child of your parents you have choices, to believe or reject that they are your parents, to choose to obey or rebel against them... choices belong to those whom God HAS SAVED.
Distinguish BEGETTING from PARENTING; differentiate SONSHIP from DISCIPLESHIP. Doing do will save you from lots of silly nonsensical notions.
You hate and loathe a doctrine plainly stated in Scriptures. Yes, you chose God.
Sing
You hate and loathe God's sovereignty in election.
" absolutely see faith as a work... But I see no scope for preselection in that nor is it required, even if it is insisted on."
Peter, I can only go by your words if words have meaning.
If faith is indeed work, and salvation is by faith, as you defended, then the reasonable conclusion is, salvation is by works.
"There is no scope of preselection" - these are your words. I understand that you hate and loathe the doctrine of election.
You want to separate Christ's redemptive work from the doctrine of election! How convenient. Christ's redemptive work is the outworking of the election before the foundation of the world. Take off your coloured-glasses and read those passages of Scriptures a few more times. I don't need to waste time referring to them.
Choices to do God's will can only be made by those whom God have already saved. You insist that those in their native state of sin and death are capable of making choices, and God offers His salvation to them.
If you offer your mansion to a dead man, I won't praise you as a kind, loving man. Instead, I will censure you for the heinous evil of mocking and insulting the dead. But like so very many, they are impressed with the fable that God offers salvation, OBVIOUSLY to those without salvation, i.e. those still in their native state of sin and death, and expect them to make a choice.
Sing
What is the use of the Saviour accessible to all who are in their native state of deadness in trespasses and sins?
I rejoice in the God who purposed salvation for sinners dead in trespasses and sins, and Christ securing that salvation, and the Spirit of God freely and sovereignly applying that salvation to multitudes of sinners, for whom the salvation was specifically purposed, from all nations, while they we spiritually dead, in enmity against God.
So, we do believe in different Gods.
You don't seem to believe what the Bible says about man in his natural state.
You believe in a God who offers salvation to sinners dead in trespasses and sins and waiting for them to accept it; I believe in the God who bestows that salvation to those helpless sinners, quickening them with eternal life.
Peter, I fear we are wasting time, speaking past each other. You see God's elect as Israel, I see God's elect out of every nation, tribe, tongue and people.
Since we do believe so differently, don't waste further time here. Thanks.
Sing
There is no need for so many words, Peter.
Keep to the subject at the source; no need to stray in all directions further downstream.
The God you believe offers salvation to all; those who accept the offer are saved, those to whom salvation is offered (obviously without salvation) are able to accept the offer and are saved.
The God I believe freely bestows the eternal salvation to those for whom it was purposed (those predestined unto eternal life before the foundation of the world), who are dead in trespasses and sins, quickening them to eternal life. Without him doing it, NONE will ever be saved. "Except a man be born again, he CANNOT..." You insist, he CAN!
We CAN'T EVEN agree on the doctrine of salvation as well as the doctrine of man. Nothing more to converse. No need to butt our heads needlessly. I know what you have said. There is truth in some of what you have said, but in the wrong context, i.e. only those whom God has freely saved are able to make choices for the things of God.
Eph 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love.
You sure hate and loathe a foundational doctrine, the fountainhead from which all redemptive blessings flow. Why deny such a foundational doctrine that explains why any man is saved at all?
Sing
Peter @ "If God bestows, we don't need a gospel. Yet he desires that all should be saved..."
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What perverted logic.
The gospel is the good news of what God has done; its purpose is to inform them that ARE SAVED, that they may be informed of the truth of their salvation by God's free grace in Jesus Christ, and be brought to believe the truth of their salvation.
I have heard a foolish boy saying, "since my parents conceived me without my permission, without my exercise of choice, then there would be no need for a birth certificate." That fool obviously does not know the great value of that birth certificate that provided so much information about his origin.
Your second sentence is yanked out of here.
2 Peter 3:9 KJV — The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Go and learn who the us-ward are? Who was the Apostle Peter writing to? Peter, move beyond soundbites.
Dave Chandler
Bro Peter, HIS ways are not our ways, HIS ways are as far above our ways as the Heavens are above the earth. I sincerely hope, my Brother, that HE will give you a heart to understand these truths. You, Brother, were chosen in him before the foundation of the world, you as one of his dear children. You are saved by grace, through faith and "that not of yourselves" That statement is impossible to understand in the flesh. I pray GOD will give you "that not of yourselves" beautiful and blessed understanding.
Dave Chandler
Brother Peter Missing, you and I didn't have a choice as to our salvation because we were dead in our trespasses and sin, just as we didn't have a choice as to who our birth mother is. Yes we do have a choice of obedience once we have been quickened. Even when we were disobedient to our mother, we were still her son.
Sing
Dave, as I see it, the problem lies here: Peter is referring to actions of people whom God has ALREADY saved, you are speaking of sinners dead in trespasses and sins. He speaks of Paul saying to the Philippians that he forsook all.... etc. etc. when he was ALREADY a SAVED man. Sonship and discipleship are completely distinct matters. I've given up responding to Mr Missing.
A blasphemer, a murderer, and a persecutor, on a fine auspicious day of his own choosing according to his own freewill, made the choice to turn around.
Steve Woods
Bible says Jesus finished the work. He came to save his people from their sins. John was given a revelation of Jesus Christ the Lamb where they sung He is worthy for He redeemed us ...for thou wast slain and hast redeemed us by thy blood............. none can find where he offered redemption. None can find where he made us redeemable. Much nonsense hath abounded in man’s philosophy, sophistry and vain deceit
Steve Woods
If I loved all, I would certainly save all that I loved. I would not leave one that I loved in the misery of hell, no matter what. If I had the authority (by sovereign choice) and power (ability) and means to save some, none or all of those I loved, then I would certainly and absolutely save all I loved.
Peter’s God is not as loving as this poor sinner (me) because Peter’s god only offered salvation but did not PURPOSE to save any only tried to save all and millions of these Peter’s god loves will flame on for eternity. What a psychotic god that would not save all he loved when he had ability and authority to do so. Pitiful god.
Philip Blankenship
I think what Peter is Missing here is that we have a free will. That free will is what caused Adam to fall and the whole race of man to fall with it. Christ interceded on our behalf that we would not see the eternal consequences of our sin. Our sins still bring us pain in this world but the eternal consequence has been atoned for. Shall we continue in sin that Grace may abound? God forbid, how shall he that is dead sin continue in it. Legal work of salvation done in the cross, made effective in our lives when we are called by God and the spirit is placed in us. After that our nature is changed we now battle sin, when the commandment comes that is ordained unto life, sin revives and we die. May God bless!
