Some strange ideas...

Water wheel at a cultural village

Weird ideas exchanged... touching on
Universal love, particular atonement, equal chance, assumptions, etc...
Read and judge for yourself!!! Where are you in these matters?

Sing
God the Creator loves His creatures in the covenant of creation.
God the Redeemer loves His chosen people in the covenant of redemption.
That's plain and simple enough.

Berf
Perhaps, some of you will say that I am "reading too much into it," but I think 2 Peter 3:9 implies the idea that God loves everyone equally......

Cook
"us-ward" who is the letter written to?

Sing
Usward...
1:1 ¶ Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Cook
"like precious faith" how beautiful and powerful.

Sing
To "usward..."
- that have obtained like precious faith with us...
- that have been given all things that pertain unto life and godliness...
- that are given exceeding great and precious promises...
- that are partakers of divine nature...
- that have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Nathan
So you're saying that only those that have faith in Christ are loved by God. What about the thousands and thousands of people who lived without ever hearing the name Jesus Christ? I believe that a just God gives each of His children an equal chance of receiving salvation, whether it's during this life or in the spirit world.

Sing
God DOES NOT give chance... much less equal chance of receiving salvation. If He gives chance, then no one will be saved. Chance is redundant to sinner dead in trespasses and sins.

God purposed salvation for His people.
Christ accomplished that same salvation for the same people.
The Spirit of God and Christ applies that salvation to each individual personally while they were dead in trespasses and sins.

These then are able to believe because the faith is worked in them by the indwelling Spirit.

Salvation is freely and sovereignly applied to each of God's chosen people. This salvation bestowed freely by God's grace NEGATES the need and place of chance in the matter of salvation.

Berf
On what do you base your assumption, Sing??.......

Sing
Berf, which one do you consider is assumption, and why? Thanks.

Berf
Everything we think or say about God is an assumption........

Sing
There is only ONE thing I assume when I speak of God and things concerning Him - that is - He HAS SPOKEN, and Has PRESERVED what He has spoken, and what He has spoken can be known and understood by those whom He has spoken to. Without that assumption we are indeed speaking like presumptuous fools.

2Tim 3
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Berf
And assumptions are based upon personal beliefs and preconceptions.....

Sing
I will leave you to speak your assumptions.
I will stick to what God has said, and preserved in the Scriptures... and based my "assumptions" on that sure foundation.
I have no hope of knowing God and His will apart from the Scriptures.
Thanks for sharing your assumptions. Thanks again.

==========

Obert
Sing you posted this the other day and I do not understand. I am hoping you can help me. here is the statement from you. "God the Creator loves His creatures in the covenant of creation. God the Redeemer loves His chosen people in the covenant of redemption. That's plain and simple enough." 

The first part that God loved his creature in the covenant of creation. I do understand the second statement though. I can not reconcille the two ideas . Help!

Sing
What is there to reconcile when there is no contradiction. You need to spell out the contradictions or inconsistencies between the two statements, then may be I can know where to begin to scratch! THANKS. You may just save me from an error.

Obert

NO likely I could save you from error but Where can I find the covenant of creation? I understand them to be separate covenants but where can I find the first?

The inconsistency would be the love ?

Sing
In the covenant of creation, God the Creator obligated His creatures to certain duties, and the Creator Himself voluntarily bound Himself to care and provide for His creatures. The love of God the Creator for His creatures and the love of God the Redeemer for His elect have no inconsistency. You may like to explain where is the inconsistency. Help me, please.

"In the covenant of CREATION..."

Obert

The covenant of creation? is that the conditional covenant between Adam and God?

I may have an idea in my head that is not consistent I see the love of God as eternal and never changing.

Sing
God as the Creator has bound Himself to love His creatures... to uphold and preserve the created order for the sake of His creatures.That love for the creatures will continue to the end of this world. The love for the elect begin before the time began and continues when the time is no more!

Obert

The rain on the just and unjust for the good of His elect?

He does not love the rocks with same love as yurself, right he is going to burn them up and i hope not you. Sing are you impling a "love" for the wicked as well as the elect being preserved in time?

Genesis 9:12 as apart! as a part of this covenant of creation?

Sing

The covenant of creation obligates man to obey God as their Creator, to acknowledge Him and honor Him. That is the basis of man being without excuse on the day of judgment.

Obert

Ecclesiastes 12:13,14?

I get that I think but I can not wrap my haed around the love factor.

I understand that all those that came from the loins of Adam #1 were hated and on their way to The lake unless they were placed in Adam #2 by covenant they wre secure in te mind and purpose of God before the conditional Covenant was made between God and Adam#1.

Sing

They were hated only in the sense they were BY PASSED in redemption. They were not hated as creatures of God...

Obert

Interesting I have always held that they were allowed to exist only because God was waiting for all of His elect to be conceived and regenerated. Can you show me where there is that different kind of love is known?

Sing

Mt 5 44 “But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” =========

On what basis did God command you and I to love our enemies?
Our Father's example - Christ's answer.

Obert

Perfect answer right in front of me thanks Sing!!! difference between brotherly love and intimate love.

So not only does the world confuse words like salvation, world condemnation but also love. what a foo, i am.

Sing

You are no foo... you are a precious child of God...

Obert

I still don not have this little brain wrapped around that yet but I will pray and ask for grace to understand as I study.

Sing

My name is sing foo, and my school mates loved making fun of my name as sinful. I was always very annoyed until the day I was converted, and thought they were right all along... and the Lord was a friend of a sinful lad like me! I went my way REJOICING.

Obert

Amen brother!! thank you for your help!

sing

You helped me to learn a little more by your questions! THANKS.

HOLY and UNBLAMEABLE and UNREPROVAEABLE

 

HOLY and

UNBLAMEABLE and

UNREPROVAEABLE

in God's own sight

Colossians 1
20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight...

By nature,
we were ALIENATED and ENEMIES in our mind by wicked works.

By grace,
God has reconciled us, to present us HOLY and UNBLAMEABLE and UNREPROVAEABLE in His own sight.

That is what the grace of God in Jesus Christ accomplished WITHOUT the least activities of man.
Since so many are so woolly about grace, let me explain a little... what I mean when I say grace...
- God ALONE purposed that salvation for all elect before time.
- Christ ALONE accomplished that salvation for all elect at the cross.
- The Holy Spirit ALONE applies that salvation to each elect personally.
- These divine activities ALONE make a man perfectly fit for eternal glory.
- Nothing more is needed for a man's eternal salvation. 'It is finished!' He is HOLY and UNBLAMEABLE and UNREPROVAEABLE in God's own sight.

'Grace ALONE' means 'grace PLUS nothing,' not 'grace PLUS something.' But the latter is really what many people actually believe!

Timely salvation (deliverance that pertains to the present life on earth) is conditioned upon the activities of God's children.
- These divine activities enable a child of God to perform activities that will secure him deliverance in the life here and now.

There is the eternal salvation that was already purposed and accomplished and applied to those dead in trespasses and sins.

And there is ALSO the timely salvation that God's children must work out for themselves with fear and trembling, in obedience to their Father's will for them.

Distinguish the two, and don't confuse them.
Is your eternal salvation by grace ALONE plus nothing?

"Faith and works" or "faith alone" or "neither!"

I love stone arch-bridges! They are simply graceful and majestic at the same time.
Concerning the picture: The stone arch-bridge was ALREADY completed WITHOUT the faith nor the works of the pedestrians crossing it. They certainly cross it by faith, and crossing they experience the solid bridge under their feet! Their crossing evidences the existence of the bridge and manifests their faith and works; it does not bring the bridge into existence!!!

 The justification of the dead condemned sinner before God:
is it by -

The RCC's "faith AND works,"
or

Her Protestant daughters "faith ALONE",
or 

The Bible's "NEITHER"???

It is popularly attributed to Luther, a man revered by many, that "the doctrine of justification is the article of a standing or falling church."

This statement was intended to strike a fatal blow upon the Roman Catholic Church. since her doctrine on justification was, and still is, completely erroneous.

This is what the Harlot Church believes concerning justification before God:
"If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema" (Council of Trent, Canons on Justification, Canon 9).

It was rightly observed that "But, when the Roman Catholic Church negates justification by faith alone, it necessarily implies that we must do something for justification; for if it is not by faith alone, then it must be by faith and something."

Therefore, the RCC teaches justification of guilty condemned sinners before God by BOTH faith AND works.

Luther battled against that error and taught that the justification of guilty condemned sinners before God is NOT by faith AND works, but by faith alone.

The whole reformation movement was built upon Luther's "sola fideism" - i.e. condemned guilty sinners are justified before God by their act of faith in Christ. Luther amputated works from the equation of justification before God.

However, Luther's position was no nearer the truth on justification than that of the Harlot Church!!! Luther was completely mistaken and confused by his sola fideism!

The Harlot Church teaches FAITH PLUS WORK for justification before God. But the justification of condemned guilty sinners before God is NEITHER by their act of faith NOR their works. It is by God's free grace alone, based solely on the finished work of Jesus Christ alone.

Luther and his fellow Protestants amputated one of those two gangrenous limbs embraced by the Harlot Church, and declares that justification before God is by faith alone, and without works. The Protestant still ends up with one GANGRENOUS limb - justification by faith ONLY! One cancerous limb is no less cancerous than two CANCEROUS limbs! BOTH, the Harlot Church, and all her "sola fidei" daughters are gravely and grievously mistaken, one no less than the other.

The Scriptures plainly declares that justification before God is SOLELY and WHOLLY by God, and that freely by sovereign grace. It has to be, and this is plainly obvious.

An un-justified man is a man STILL in his native state of condemnation and death, therefore incapable of anything towards his justification before God; a man in his un-justified state is utterly incapable of believing in order to be justified. Moreover, faith is a fruit and effect of justification by God.

FAITH is the alone instrument for a justified man to EXPERIENCE the blessedness of the justification that has taken place by the free grace of God... see Gen 15:1-6. Abraham was already justified by God free grace when God called him out of the Ur of the Chaldeans. Many insisted that Abraham was an UN-justified man before God in Gen 12-14, and was justified by God only in Gen 15:1-6.

FAITH and WORKS are evidence of a justified state. They are EVIDENCE of justification already applied by God's free and sovereign grace.

The RCC has mistaken them both for LEGAL justification before God. The Protestant daughters of the RCC abandoned one of them and hold fast to the other equally gangrenous limb.

Both have mistaken the means of EVIDENTIAL justification before one's own conscience and men as the instrument of forensic justification before God!!

Take a look here:
http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2008/01/by-faith-alone-vs-not-by-faith-alone.html.

By Luther's standard, that is "the doctrine of justification is the article of a standing or falling church - are all the "sola fidei" churches standing, or fallen?

He who ears to hear, let him hear!

===============

If you are interested in what the Old School Baptists believed in justification, see what they have summarized here, and some commentaries.
http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2012/10/the-doctrine-of-justification-as.html

Hypo or Hyper, Dumbo or Sounder! Which is which?

Hypo or Hyper, Dumbo or Sounder. Which is which?
Do you know the difference?
Beware of throwing terms around carelessly.

Hypo or Hyper, Dumbo or Sounder. Which is which?
Do you know the difference?
Beware of throwing terms around carelessly.

A Calvinist asked, and answered:
Question: "What is hyper-Calvinism and is it biblical?"
Answer: A simple definition is this: hyper-Calvinism is the belief that God saves the elect through His sovereign will with little or no use of the methods of bringing about salvation (such as evangelism, preaching, and prayer for the lost).

Sing replied:
The answer betrays a serious ignorance of the distinction between eternal salvation by the free and sovereign saving activities of the Triune God WITHOUT any means, and the temporal salvation through the uses of the ordained means.

As for me, you can even remove the wee "little" from your answer above!!!
Even the least "little" will adulterate and contaminate, thus repudiate the truth of "GRACE ALONE." You don't seem to understand this basic point!!! Grace alone has NO PLACE for your "little" however little it is!!!

The former (eternal salvation) involves the activities of the Triune God ALONE in PRODUCING His own children... i.e. bringing into BEING His children. That is completely MONERGISTIC, by grace ALONE, plus NOTHING.

The latter (temporal salvation) involves the means appointed by God for the WELL BEING of His children, those elect already PRODUCED by His own free and sovereign activities.

The means appointed by God are very necessary... but necessary ONLY for the reasons they are appointed only, not for the reasons the hypo-calvinists IMAGINED, i.e. instrumental in the eternal salvation of the elect!!!

If you don't understand, don't disagree yet. Inquire for understanding of the truth. Thanks.

The Calvinist responded:
Not trying to make this a agree or disagree kind of blog but more of trying to understand how a hyper thinks. I am not hyper in the sense that there is no work for men to do. The bible tells us EPH 2:10, "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." The new creation is a transformation of our will; it gives us new desires to do the will or the pleasure of the Lord. I find this scripture difficult to comprehend if I was working from a hyper position...Maybe you can expound from your position of a hyper.

Sing F Lau
You are fixated on the idea that some are hyper. That's not my concern. I'm interested in the truthfulness of what other said... no matter said by who!

Did you understand what I said above. Which part do you disagree? Is what I said above the same as you think of a hyper?

What part did you and other man play in your NEW CREATION? Please tell us? Did a man's "evangelism, preaching, and prayer" assist the Triune in the new creation of you? Tell us, please. I find it hard believe the hypo's irrational view points It is rightly dividing the word of truth - that's the issue.

The Calvinist replied:
You have not said you were a hyper but as Surgeon said I agree with what a hyper believes I just believe there is more to what we are called to do. The issue is not we do not believe the same ... The issue is I believe there is ample scripture to support men are responsible and men are called into evangelizing the lost. GOD still saves whom HE will but those who are saved are called for a purpose....

Sing F Lau
It is NOT the matter of "there is more to what we are called to do."
The issue is what is the NATURE of what we are called to do!!!
What you are called to do HAS NOTHING to do with the ETERNAL salvation of God's elect. That's God's own work.

You and other calvinists INSIST otherwise... thus ending up with SYNERGISM, and repudiating MONERGISM which you mouth so loudly!

Conclusion:
"Grace alone" deals with eternal salvation by the activities of the Triune God alone.
Means and instruments deal with the temporal salvation, the spiritual WELL BEING of those BEINGS ALREADY freely and sovereignly bestowed with eternal salvation.

When will the hypo - whether Arminians or their cousins haughty Calvinists - ever learn the truth of "grace alone" and stop throwing around terms carelessly?

Eternal salvation by divine grace ALONE:
- God ALONE purposed that salvation for all elect before time.
- Christ ALONE accomplished that salvation for all elect at the cross.
- The Holy Spirit ALONE applies that salvation to each elect personally.
- These divine activities ALONE, PLUS NOTHING, make a man perfectly fit for eternal glory.
- Nothing more is needed for a man's eternal salvation. 'It is finished!'

'Grace ALONE' means 'grace PLUS nothing,' not 'grace PLUS something.'' But the latter is really what many people actually believe!

Timely salvation (deliverance that pertains to the present life on earth) is conditioned upon the activities of God's children.
- These divine activities enable a child of God to perform activities that will secure him deliverance in the life here and now.

There is the eternal salvation that was already purposed and accomplished and applied to those dead in trespasses and sins.

And there is ALSO the timely salvation that God's children must work out for themselves with fear and trembling, in obedience to their Father's will for them.

Distinguish the two, and don't confuse them.
Is your eternal salvation by grace ALONE plus nothing?

Divine grace frustrated because geographically isolated?

picture taken from : http://pbgrace.org/isolate.htm

Read the good article here: http://pbgrace.org/isolate.htm

Many elect may not be reached with the gospel - either due the lack of the gospel ministry or because of the inability to be outwardly called - yet NOT a single ONE is NOT reached with eternal life - at God's appointed and approved time, by the sovereign activity of regeneration by the Spirit of God, according to the will of the Father, and based on the merits of Christ's redemptive work.

The gospel regenerationists have a massive problem in their bosom!!!
May the Lord open their eyes to see it, and let it haunts them till their turn from their errors.

John 3:8 - The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

The eternal life-giving wind of the Spirit of God blows EVEN in places that no preachers have ever heard of, much less trod!!! Now, that's gospel. This fact alone will guarantee - "to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed."

No farmer is so stupid (i.e. lacking common sense) to believe that his presence or absence determines the activity of the wind blowing on his farm. But so many preachers are deceived and deluded to INSIST that unless they are present and preaching their (i.e. not "the") gospel, the Spirit of God is impotent to execute His divine work of regeneration.

According to this fable, logically many elect will have no hope of being regenerated whatsoever, and be left to perish in their native state death and damnation. The peddlers of such fable will retort will another fable of the "norm and exception" - the Spirit ordinarily regenerated with THEIR preaching, but extraordinarily regenerate without their preaching!

However in this - they have just repudiated the plain statement of Christ in John 3:8 stated above, namely, "
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."


SO IS EVERY ONE THAT IS BORN OF THE SPIRIT.

Did you read that? Do you believe Christ plain words?
How many ways did Christ say His elect are born again?
Let Christ be true, and every man a liar who contradicts Him.

Not being rude, just putting the matter simply, and plainly.
=========

Ron commented, and the following exchanges took place: 

Ron   
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Sing F Lau 
The wickedness of men, the many failures of preachers, or the inabilities of the elect of God themselves DO NOT in any way hinder their regeneration unto eternal life at God's own appointed and approved time.

 Ron
 Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Sing F Lau  

Ronald, don't just quote Scriptures.
Tell us PLAINLY what the those Scriptures say.
With all due respect, the devil quotes better than you do, and I'm not impressed with him at all.

Ron 

 He elect some, rejected others. but those rejected by God before the world begun, some are abandoned from the gospel and some heard and rejected the gospel because they cannot able to accept it.

 But despite of all, as elect born from above, I need to obey my Lord to preach the gospel around the world even there is rejected people. Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Sing F Lau

"He elect some, rejected others. but those rejected by God before the world begun, some are abandoned from the gospel and some heard and rejected the gospel because they cannot able to accept it."
========
Think through what you have written, and say it again before I show you that it is full of confusion and inconsistencies. THANKS.

Ron 

I'll never confuse about it. I am a believer of unconditional election and the same time I am obeying my God through Jesus Christ.

There are places that already judge by physical death because of their sins before the arrival by the Missionaries of God.

Sing F Lau 

If you are never confused, tell us what is the ISSUE of this thread, and what are the issues you are raising?

If you can't stick to the issue here, RAVE somewhere else. Thanks.

Since you are never confused, I will not waste time showing you your confusions.

Ron  

Cannot tell you the issue because I am not confused. I have no problem in both side.

Sing F Lau 

 If you can't tell us the ISSUE, then why are you raving away like that???
And who is having problem with what, in whose side?

Sing F Lau  

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
====
Who is he that believeth not? Who is warned - a child of God, or one whom you designated as "rejected"?

Who has an obligation to believe, and believe what?

Do those whom God did not choose, Christ did not die for, still dead in trespasses and sins - does God require them to believe? If yes, believe what?

WHO is he that if believes not is condemned already? And condemned in what sense?

It is time to move beyond cheap "Missionary" shibboleths!

Sing F Lau 

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
======
"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life" - this is a statement of fact, declaring the plain fact that a man who believes on the Son DOES SO because he POSSESSES everlasting. It is NOT a statement of offer, offering everlasting life to those who will believe.

It is like a simple statement of fact - he who eats has life. It is not offering life to the lifeless that if he will eat, he will obtain life.

"and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life" - who is under divine obligation to believe on the Son? Only those who are redeemed by Him, and are His. All such are under divine obligation to believe on the truth of their redemption in the Son of God.

God's children, those elect freely and sovereignly regenerated and given eternal life, who believe not shall not see life... shall not experience the abundance of life through the saving knowledge of Christ their Saviour!

God's children who believe not on the Son their Saviour are under the hot His displeasure.

Sing F Lau 

 "He elect some, rejected others. but those rejected by God before the world begun, some are abandoned from the gospel and some heard and rejected the gospel because they cannot able to accept it."
=======
There are lots of confusion here:

God did chose many. He rejected none. He BY-PASSED them. They rejected God and brought death and condemnation to themselves. God left them to their just desert.

Of those that were bypassed, the gospel was NEVER intended for them; the gospel did not have them in view; the gospel has no relevance to them.
So, they cannot be said to be abandoned from the gospel.

The gospel, the good news of what God has done to save His chosen people are solely and wholly intended for, and has relevance to God's elect alone. The gospel has NO REFERENCE to those by-passed by God, and left in their sin and condemnation.
So, they cannot be said to have rejected the gospel.

Since food is for the living, and was never intended for the dead (even though superstitious Chinese love offering delicious roast pigs to their dead!!!) it is lacking common sense (i.e. stew pig!) to say the dead rejected the food, or to say that the dead were abandoned from the distribution of the food.

The only bit that has some truth in it, "they cannot able to accept it" - but even that is OUT of context!

Sing F Lau  

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
=========
Unto whom of all nations did the Lord instruct His apostles to TEACH, and BAPTIZE in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost? Those whom the Father chosen and given to Christ and for whom Christ redeemed, OR those bypassed by God?

Who are capable of being taught by the apostles and baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost?

God's children that are already there by the free and sovereign regenerating work of the Spirit of God, or those that are still in their native state of sin and death?

Just WHO did the Lord Jesus had in mind when He give that command to the Apostle?

Charles

When God says he has a remnant of people these people on the Andaman Islands maybe those people. They are holy elect and precious in His sight. They should not be disturbed by us and left to the Holy Spirit to raise up preachers to go. The Lord will convert the Pagans when He is ready to convert them!
Have we heard that before?

Sing F Lau 

 The biblical concept of remnant refers to the MINORITY who are faithful in contrast to the MAJORITY who are unfaithful among His people. His elect who are still unconverted are not under the purview of the remnant concept.

That's my understanding - so I may be wrong! (with that, I'm covering my backside!

  ------