"All" - who are included in the word "all"?Page
"... 'The whole world is gone after him.' Did all the world go after Christ? 'Then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan.' Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem baptized in Jordan? 'Ye are of God, little children', and 'the whole world lieth in the wicked one.' Does 'the whole world' there mean everybody?
If so, how was it, then, that there were some who were 'of God?' The words 'world' and 'all' are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture; and it is very rarely that 'all' means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts—some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted his redemption to either Jew or Gentile." (Charles H. Spurgeon, Particular Redemption, A Sermon, 28 Feb 1858).
Sing F Lau
Joh 17:9 "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine."
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but ...have everlasting life.
A man who cannot distinguish the two worlds will be in big trouble!
Watson
So you don't believe that when the Bible says, "God commands all men everywhere to repent," it really doesn't mean All men? DEW
Johnson
In my mind I have to find other supporting scripture to support what is being said with the All statement. The word all is PAS in the Greek. Most of the time meaning some of all. Consider Luke 2:1 were it says and a decree went out from Caesar Augusts that all the World was to be text…Was all the World taxed.. Of course not all the known World was. So all does not mean all all the time :) Kind of odd. Consider another saying Money is the root of all evil. Is money the root of all evil? Is money the root of sexual sins? Think about these things…I do not believe we can discount that GOD makes a decree to all men everywhere that they should repent. I believe the Gospel call is an honest call to every man everywhere. Yet to support the idea that all men should repent I have to go to scripture that supports this. Example the Old Testament says GOD does not take please in the death of the wicked. So in context we have to conclude GOD makes a honest call for all to repent. Yet in the end the scriptures says the ones GOD is seeking out the elect he is working out the Gospel to them…..Hope that help from my perspective….
Sing F Lau
'All' must means 'all' in its context.
All in Adam means ABSOLUTELY all in Adam, not one more and not one less. All in Christ means ABSOLUTELY all in Christ.
Just like we need to know the context 'Don' and 'Don' - otherwise it is a recipe for disaster. 'Don' always means a particular 'Don' in its context.
Jones
Don, you have to consider the context, and whether there is evident reason to put a limit on what ALL is...
Romans 1:7 is a fine example on the limitation of the word all....
"To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:... Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. "
The"All" Paul is referring to is LIMITED by the next phrase
Which makes it clear that he is only referring to Christians, and not all Romans...
The amount "all" is, is limited by the context. If the context allows the word All to be universal, then it should be used as such... but if the word is limited by the context, then all refers to what the context limits it to.
and nothing more.
So in acts 17 verse 30 what does the "all" refer to...
Look at the context... Paul is preaching the Gospel.. the great commission states that the Gospel is to be preached to all... universal...
Go ye therefore, and teach ALL NATIONS, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
We are to teach all nations..the gospel call is universal...repentance is a command, not a request...
Johnson
Thanks Sing....I was just giving you my understanding but let me take your understanding and apply it to scripture... If we are dogmatic about and can not discriminate between the two our thought could would be Universalisam...Consider the text ...as follows.... Rom 5:12
So then, just as sin entered the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all people 13 because 14 all sinned –
Now Rom 5:18 "Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life."
Did all men once again result to life. No it did not. Not all men are saved unless you are will to conclude universalisam....
My only point is that we must use scripture to suport scripure context. It is ok if you want to use all means all all the time but you will have to jump through some hoops to answer some very odd scriptures such as the above to justify your believe....God Bless....
Sing F Lau
Amen Dorian.
All nations does not means every individuals. It does mean every people group, and not just the Jews.
Gospel ministry is intended for God's children found in every people groups, ethnic nations of the world. Disciples can only be... made out of such, those that are ALREADY beloved of God, and called to be saints, i.e. ALREADY separated from their state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation.
Watson
That is good, Don. What you are saying in the end is not very clear, or perhaps it is clear. But what I'm hearing over and over in these posts is that the scriptures which call all men to repentance, that whosoever believeth will be saved..., and even (perhaps, though I've not seen a comment on it) that God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance, don't really mean what they say. They mean something else, because some people are not elected, and cannot be saved even if they believe, repent, are baptised (the Bible says whosoever believes and is baptised will be saved), etc. I cannot accept that. Jesus came to seek and save the lost, not the regenerate. DEW
Watson
Don, You mentioned the universalist connection. If salvation is based on election, with no action (not an action which earns salvation, but action nonetheless), It would result in the salvation of every human being, because that is what God wants. DEW
Johnson
Hey Don...Not sure I understand your thoughts but if Universalism is true we have to answer the question as to why we find people in Hell Rev. and Matt 7:21. So if we find these to believe that there is no Universal salvation then we are back at square one and try and understand why someone goes to Heaven and another does not. Suffice it to say I don’t think a person who is just saved has to understand these things right away much like a child who is born into the world understand how conception transpires. He learns the process later but our focus has to be on doing what GOD has called us to do share the Gospel and GOD will work out the detail. Most of the evangelical world does not believe in election not because it is unbiblical but because they do not understand it. I do not claim to have it all figured out but we should not be afraid to seek the word for greater debts of what GOD is showing us and I believe we can’t understand it is because we can not understand how great sin is. Sin kills and separates us for a Perfect Holy GOD.
Sing F Lau
DJ@5:18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.
========
That's exactly what I meant - we must take 'all' in its context.
Judgment (condemnation of death) came to 'all' men without exception, I.E. 'ALL' without exception embraced by that ONE representative man, Adam.
Justification of life came to 'all' men without exception, i.e. 'ALL' men without exception embraced by that ONE representative man, Christ Jesus.
Context, context, and context, is the first, second, and third rule of interpretation.
Watson
Don J. I do not believe in universalism. I believe in a universal offer of salvation, that God in his sovreignty has extended to literally all men, an offer which one must either receive (through no merit of his own) or reject. Of course, if it is not received, the offeree is already lost, as Jesus says, because he has not believed in the only Son of God. Unconditional election denies this. DEW
Johnson
Great Pont Sing. Don Context is Key. I have notice I as well as other make up the gaps of what we do not understand of GOD in our mind and change his Character to something different then what the bible teaches. I would encourage you to ...re read 2peter 3:9 that you quoted and ask the question who is he talking to? Read 3:1 Peter for that answers….Brothers and Sisters. Then go to 1 Peter and read the first 2 verses. He is righting to the Elect. Now I am still with you on the Universal call to all men and GOD gets no Joy out of the death of the wicked but we have to use scripture context for each passage or we get into trouble with our interpretation much like the Modern day Sinners Prayer issue we not find in the Modern church…
Johnson
Don if Unconditional election is not true you have to redefine election. The Gospel is not an offer. The Gospel is a command. The Gospel is power of GOD to save a people unto himself. GOD is not a puppy setting on the side line just waiting for little Mary to say a sinners prayer. He is mighty. If he did not act for the elect then no one would have chose him. Rom 9:16 for it is not of him who runs or of him who wills but of GOD who shows Mercy. You see without mercy no one would believe. Yet man is still responsible. Why you say. Because he loves his sin and will not come to the light. That is all men. Even me. No one can boat that they come becasue they were smarter more spiritual for if that is so merit is found and reward is found and Grace no longer is Grace.....Thanks brother for the conversation...This has been a hot topic for 2000 years. I don't beleive we are going to solve it tongiht...
Johnson
Amen Don....If you don't mind Read Romans 8:28 to the end of 9 and tell me what you think? Later...
Watson
Thanks, Don J. Context is indeed key. But, as far as I can recall, God never tells us that he has elected some to be saved and some to be lost. But Jesus did say that the one who believes is saved, and the one who believes not is condemned ......because he has not believed--not the other way around, and not because he is not elected. This is in the context in which Jesus introduced the idea of the new birth.
I know I am not likely to convince anyone. My Bible teacher of long ago said, "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."
I've got to break away and go to bed. I hope we all meet in heaven, and all (absolutely all) things will be clearer there than here. DEWSee More
Sing F Lau
DJ@ 'The Gospel is power of GOD to save a people unto himself."
The gospel is NOT the power of God to save a people unto Himself.
The gospel is the good news that declares what God HAS, by His power, freely and sovereignly save His people.
To those that are saved by God, the gospel message will be perceived as the power of God in saving them,
The same gospel will be perceived by those who are not saved as foolishness.
Note this very carefully:
"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."
The preaching of the cross COMES to two categories of people, them that PERISH, and them that ARE SAVED.
To them that PERISH, the good news of God saving sinners by His power is foolishness.
To the that ARE SAVED (already effectually called to grace and salvation (i.e justified by free grace, regenerated, adopted, and indwelt by the Spirit of adoption, who produces the graces of faith and repentance, etc) the good news is perceived as the message declaring the power of God in saving them.
The message that speaks of certain event, and that event ARE TOTALLY different.
Many can't differentiate them!
Page
good discussion!!!
Andrews
Double that Charles...Ditto, ditto.
Watson
No, Sing, God has not commanded anyone to believe a lie. God wants everyone to believe in His Son, Christ Jesus, for Salvation. Jesus said that we are lost if we do not believe.
I do not believe that this discussion is edifying anyone. For ...that reason, I am withdrawing from it. Each one is free to believe what you will. Some may believe that I am distorting what the Bible says; I believe that some are themselves are distorting what the Bible says.
Sing F Lau
1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
It is a good thing to subject all our belief to brotherly discussion. Truth will withstand examination. That which cannot withstand, or shown to be illogical or inconsistent or contrary to Scriptures need to be revised or abandon.
There is no need to accuse a brother for abusing the Scriptures. Each man ought to be able to present what he believes to be the truth, and be able to defend his belief based on the Scriptures ALONE.
That's the principle and approach I take.
Watson
I have done so, Sing. DEW
Johnson
Guys the concept of predestination is not a problem among denominations or one sect or group, it is a Bible doctrine. As RC Sproul says “It is not a doctrine hid away in the corner of the book” It is wide spread through out scripture. Eve...ry denomination has had to deal with it so it is a teaching the bible teaches and is very hard for most of us to come to terms with. If Don W is having a hard time with it we should not make him feel uncomfortable with it for I know for sure I too have had hard times great distress and lack of sleep over it. Should I not have as much or more patients with someone else who has struggling with it. Of course. For if we have all knowledge and have not Love we are nothing. This is a true statement, the Doctrine of predestination and election is biblical and everyone has to come to terms with it. It is not easy. It challenges our finite minds and pushes us to our proper places. In need of Grace. My heart is with anyone who has wrestled with this truth. If it is not time for you to understand it is not time…..
Andrews
@Don Watson Been reading some of the comments and came across this quote: " I believe in a universal offer of salvation, that God in his sovereignty has extended to literally all men, an offer which one must either receive (through no me...rit of his own) or reject."
Then, I would assume that your view of God is based on the notion that God's goodness or plan must require an "offering" of salvation to ALL men in order for God to be just, for God to be fair, for God to be Love; is that not true? If your answer is affirmative; then I ask: Do you not believe that God is immutable, and unchanging and that Jesus Christ the one from whom all the creation was made is the same today, yesterday and forever? Because again, if your answer is the affirmative then your reasoning is flawed. How then can a loving and immutable God bring judgment upon the whole world in Gen. 6 without an offering of repentance? Then again, we see the same judgment upon Sodom whereby in each case only a “few” were provided salvation by the grace of God. Yet, in the book of Jonah we see God telling Nineveh to repent and the result was accomplished. But, there is no requirement upon God. His fairness, His love and His justice who can challenge? If God is required by anything or anyone outside of His will, then that thing would in itself be god. Is that not what one does when they place a standard upon the Almighty? They place in question His integrity, His wisdom, His methods. Job did that and God confronted him over it and Job was repentant subsequently for his arrogance. Is that not what we do when we challenge God’s authority, and his plan? Are we now to question Him? Paul brings up this point in Romans 9; a chapter which every good Arminian dreads.
Then also I ask you according to your definition of grace, love and fairness: How many times must a person be presented with the gospel before they would be considered “rejecters?” For your whole premise lies in this balance does it not? God is not fair or loving unless everyone is allowed to hear the gospel and accept it or reject it you say; okay then. How many times must one hear and reject before the “superior judge” the one overseeing the Almighty is satisfied. Once, twice? Ten times, One hundred? What if the one hearing was not hearing “your gospel” all the while, but a false one, or another gospel, are they given more leniencies? Do they get a “mulligan?”
I will await you reply is you have one. If not, I will assume that either you cannot refute these arguments against the Arminian doctrinal heresy or perhaps you’ve done what I most sincerely hope which is to repent as did Job…
Sing F Lau
Take it any way one likes:
To offer life to a dead man on condition of his acceptance is a foolish thing;
To offer life to one already alive and able to respond to your so-called offer deserves a firm but gracious rebuke, "You offer comes TOOOOOOOO late! It is foolish, as well as redundant! "
Read a short article here: "Free Offer? To who?" http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2008/02/what-have-you-to-free-offer.html
Sing F Lau
I was once asked, " Is it right to freely offer Christ to all men?"
My reply was:
Your question PRESUPPOSES that the preaching of the gospel constitutes a free offer of Christ, and to all men. I question whether the preaching of the gospel constitutes a free offer of Christ at all? I do believe the preaching of the gospel is the heralding and proclamation of the good news of salvation already accomplished by God through the Lord Jesus Christ.
There IS NOT an offer of anything to any one. The hearers are called to believe the good news... and tell you what... ONLY those that ARE SAVED by God - i.e. already justified, regenerated and adopted, with the indwelling Spirit of God working faith in them - will receive the gospel. Why? Because the gospel of salvation is ALREADY TRUE of them by God's free grace through the effectual call.
As a preacher, I have nothing to offer to sinners. I am not sent to offer anything. I am send to preach the gospel, to announce the glad tidings of salvation already accomplished and applied, and call the hearers to believe the gospel.
I have good news of salvation to announce to my hearers. I call all the hearers to believe the good news... ALL THE TIME conscious that only God's children (i.e. elect already effectually called out of their state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation) would ever believe. All others will perceive the gospel as foolishness, and the preachers of the gospel as fools.
And I perceive the gospel preachers who offer Christ to those dead in sins as sincere BUT foolish preachers who try to offer beef burger to a dead man. To offer Christ to the dead is foolishness. To offer Christ to the children of God is redundant. To proclaim the gospel and call the hearers to believe the good news is wise.
Hold forth the good news of salvation and invite the hearers to believe it... and ONLY those who have eternal life among the hearers shall believe. WHOEVER BELIEVES HAS - HAS - HAS ETERNAL LIFE - is a declarative statement of fact, and not a conditional statement of offer - believe so that you may have life.
Bread is for the nourishing of the living!!! Foolish preachers think bread is for the dead to eat, so that they may have life.
Andrews
@Sing F Lau. That's good stuff there Sing! You need to come over here in America...
Sing F Lau
The Lord has seen fit to put here where I am...
