"All the world... all men"

"All" - who are included in the word "all"?

Page
‎"... 'The whole world is gone after him.' Did all the world go after Christ? 'Then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan.' Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem baptized in Jordan? 'Ye are of God, little children', and 'the whole world lieth in the wicked one.' Does 'the whole world' there mean everybody?

If so, how was it, then, that there were some who were 'of God?' The words 'world' and 'all' are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture; and it is very rarely that 'all' means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts—some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted his redemption to either Jew or Gentile." (Charles H. Spurgeon, Particular Redemption, A Sermon, 28 Feb 1858).

Sing F Lau
Joh 17:9 "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine."

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but ...have everlasting life.

A man who cannot distinguish the two worlds will be in big trouble!

Watson
So you don't believe that when the Bible says, "God commands all men everywhere to repent," it really doesn't mean All men? DEW

Johnson
In my mind I have to find other supporting scripture to support what is being said with the All statement. The word all is PAS in the Greek. Most of the time meaning some of all. Consider Luke 2:1 were it says and a decree went out from Caesar Augusts that all the World was to be text…Was all the World taxed.. Of course not all the known World was. So all does not mean all all the time :) Kind of odd. Consider another saying Money is the root of all evil. Is money the root of all evil? Is money the root of sexual sins? Think about these things…I do not believe we can discount that GOD makes a decree to all men everywhere that they should repent. I believe the Gospel call is an honest call to every man everywhere. Yet to support the idea that all men should repent I have to go to scripture that supports this. Example the Old Testament says GOD does not take please in the death of the wicked. So in context we have to conclude GOD makes a honest call for all to repent. Yet in the end the scriptures says the ones GOD is seeking out the elect he is working out the Gospel to them…..Hope that help from my perspective….

Sing F Lau
‎'All' must means 'all' in its context.
All in Adam means ABSOLUTELY all in Adam, not one more and not one less. All in Christ means ABSOLUTELY all in Christ.

Just like we need to know the context 'Don' and 'Don' - otherwise it is a recipe for disaster. 'Don' always means a particular 'Don' in its context.

Jones
Don, you have to consider the context, and whether there is evident reason to put a limit on what ALL is...
Romans 1:7 is a fine example on the limitation of the word all....

"To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:... Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. "

The"All" Paul is referring to is LIMITED by the next phrase
Which makes it clear that he is only referring to Christians, and not all Romans...

The amount "all" is, is limited by the context. If the context allows the word All to be universal, then it should be used as such... but if the word is limited by the context, then all refers to what the context limits it to.
and nothing more.

So in acts 17 verse 30 what does the "all" refer to...
Look at the context... Paul is preaching the Gospel.. the great commission states that the Gospel is to be preached to all... universal...

Go ye therefore, and teach ALL NATIONS, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

We are to teach all nations..the gospel call is universal...repentance is a command, not a request...

Johnson
Thanks Sing....I was just giving you my understanding but let me take your understanding and apply it to scripture... If we are dogmatic about and can not discriminate between the two our thought could would be Universalisam...Consider the text ...as follows.... Rom 5:12

So then, just as sin entered the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all people 13 because 14 all sinned –

Now Rom 5:18 "Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life."

Did all men once again result to life. No it did not. Not all men are saved unless you are will to conclude universalisam....

My only point is that we must use scripture to suport scripure context. It is ok if you want to use all means all all the time but you will have to jump through some hoops to answer some very odd scriptures such as the above to justify your believe....God Bless....

Sing F Lau
Amen Dorian.

All nations does not means every individuals. It does mean every people group, and not just the Jews.

Gospel ministry is intended for God's children found in every people groups, ethnic nations of the world. Disciples can only be... made out of such, those that are ALREADY beloved of God, and called to be saints, i.e. ALREADY separated from their state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation.

Watson
That is good, Don. What you are saying in the end is not very clear, or perhaps it is clear. But what I'm hearing over and over in these posts is that the scriptures which call all men to repentance, that whosoever believeth will be saved..., and even (perhaps, though I've not seen a comment on it) that God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance, don't really mean what they say. They mean something else, because some people are not elected, and cannot be saved even if they believe, repent, are baptised (the Bible says whosoever believes and is baptised will be saved), etc. I cannot accept that. Jesus came to seek and save the lost, not the regenerate. DEW

Watson
Don, You mentioned the universalist connection. If salvation is based on election, with no action (not an action which earns salvation, but action nonetheless), It would result in the salvation of every human being, because that is what God wants. DEW

Johnson
Hey Don...Not sure I understand your thoughts but if Universalism is true we have to answer the question as to why we find people in Hell Rev. and Matt 7:21. So if we find these to believe that there is no Universal salvation then we are back at square one and try and understand why someone goes to Heaven and another does not. Suffice it to say I don’t think a person who is just saved has to understand these things right away much like a child who is born into the world understand how conception transpires. He learns the process later but our focus has to be on doing what GOD has called us to do share the Gospel and GOD will work out the detail. Most of the evangelical world does not believe in election not because it is unbiblical but because they do not understand it. I do not claim to have it all figured out but we should not be afraid to seek the word for greater debts of what GOD is showing us and I believe we can’t understand it is because we can not understand how great sin is. Sin kills and separates us for a Perfect Holy GOD.

Sing F Lau
DJ@5:18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.
========

That's exactly what I meant - we must take 'all' in its context.

Judgment (condemnation of death) came to 'all' men without exception, I.E. 'ALL' without exception embraced by that ONE representative man, Adam.

Justification of life came to 'all' men without exception, i.e. 'ALL' men without exception embraced by that ONE representative man, Christ Jesus.

Context, context, and context, is the first, second, and third rule of interpretation.

Watson
Don J. I do not believe in universalism. I believe in a universal offer of salvation, that God in his sovreignty has extended to literally all men, an offer which one must either receive (through no merit of his own) or reject. Of course, if it is not received, the offeree is already lost, as Jesus says, because he has not believed in the only Son of God. Unconditional election denies this. DEW

Johnson
Great Pont Sing. Don Context is Key. I have notice I as well as other make up the gaps of what we do not understand of GOD in our mind and change his Character to something different then what the bible teaches. I would encourage you to ...re read 2peter 3:9 that you quoted and ask the question who is he talking to? Read 3:1 Peter for that answers….Brothers and Sisters. Then go to 1 Peter and read the first 2 verses. He is righting to the Elect. Now I am still with you on the Universal call to all men and GOD gets no Joy out of the death of the wicked but we have to use scripture context for each passage or we get into trouble with our interpretation much like the Modern day Sinners Prayer issue we not find in the Modern church…

Johnson
Don if Unconditional election is not true you have to redefine election. The Gospel is not an offer. The Gospel is a command. The Gospel is power of GOD to save a people unto himself. GOD is not a puppy setting on the side line just waiting for little Mary to say a sinners prayer. He is mighty. If he did not act for the elect then no one would have chose him. Rom 9:16 for it is not of him who runs or of him who wills but of GOD who shows Mercy. You see without mercy no one would believe. Yet man is still responsible. Why you say. Because he loves his sin and will not come to the light. That is all men. Even me. No one can boat that they come becasue they were smarter more spiritual for if that is so merit is found and reward is found and Grace no longer is Grace.....Thanks brother for the conversation...This has been a hot topic for 2000 years. I don't beleive we are going to solve it tongiht...

Johnson
Amen Don....If you don't mind Read Romans 8:28 to the end of 9 and tell me what you think? Later...

Watson
Thanks, Don J. Context is indeed key. But, as far as I can recall, God never tells us that he has elected some to be saved and some to be lost. But Jesus did say that the one who believes is saved, and the one who believes not is condemned ......because he has not believed--not the other way around, and not because he is not elected. This is in the context in which Jesus introduced the idea of the new birth.

I know I am not likely to convince anyone. My Bible teacher of long ago said, "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."

I've got to break away and go to bed. I hope we all meet in heaven, and all (absolutely all) things will be clearer there than here. DEWSee More

Sing F Lau
DJ@ 'The Gospel is power of GOD to save a people unto himself."

The gospel is NOT the power of God to save a people unto Himself.

The gospel is the good news that declares what God HAS, by His power, freely and sovereignly save His people.

To those that are saved by God, the gospel message will be perceived as the power of God in saving them,

The same gospel will be perceived by those who are not saved as foolishness.

Note this very carefully:
"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."

The preaching of the cross COMES to two categories of people, them that PERISH, and them that ARE SAVED.

To them that PERISH, the good news of God saving sinners by His power is foolishness.

To the that ARE SAVED (already effectually called to grace and salvation (i.e justified by free grace, regenerated, adopted, and indwelt by the Spirit of adoption, who produces the graces of faith and repentance, etc) the good news is perceived as the message declaring the power of God in saving them.

The message that speaks of certain event, and that event ARE TOTALLY different.

Many can't differentiate them!

Page
good discussion!!!

Andrews
Double that Charles...Ditto, ditto.

Watson
No, Sing, God has not commanded anyone to believe a lie. God wants everyone to believe in His Son, Christ Jesus, for Salvation. Jesus said that we are lost if we do not believe.

I do not believe that this discussion is edifying anyone. For ...that reason, I am withdrawing from it. Each one is free to believe what you will. Some may believe that I am distorting what the Bible says; I believe that some are themselves are distorting what the Bible says.

Sing F Lau
‎1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

It is a good thing to subject all our belief to brotherly discussion. Truth will withstand examination. That which cannot withstand, or shown to be illogical or inconsistent or contrary to Scriptures need to be revised or abandon.

There is no need to accuse a brother for abusing the Scriptures. Each man ought to be able to present what he believes to be the truth, and be able to defend his belief based on the Scriptures ALONE.

That's the principle and approach I take.

Watson
I have done so, Sing. DEW

Johnson
Guys the concept of predestination is not a problem among denominations or one sect or group, it is a Bible doctrine. As RC Sproul says “It is not a doctrine hid away in the corner of the book” It is wide spread through out scripture. Eve...ry denomination has had to deal with it so it is a teaching the bible teaches and is very hard for most of us to come to terms with. If Don W is having a hard time with it we should not make him feel uncomfortable with it for I know for sure I too have had hard times great distress and lack of sleep over it. Should I not have as much or more patients with someone else who has struggling with it. Of course. For if we have all knowledge and have not Love we are nothing. This is a true statement, the Doctrine of predestination and election is biblical and everyone has to come to terms with it. It is not easy. It challenges our finite minds and pushes us to our proper places. In need of Grace. My heart is with anyone who has wrestled with this truth. If it is not time for you to understand it is not time…..

Andrews
‎@Don Watson Been reading some of the comments and came across this quote: " I believe in a universal offer of salvation, that God in his sovereignty has extended to literally all men, an offer which one must either receive (through no me...rit of his own) or reject."

Then, I would assume that your view of God is based on the notion that God's goodness or plan must require an "offering" of salvation to ALL men in order for God to be just, for God to be fair, for God to be Love; is that not true? If your answer is affirmative; then I ask: Do you not believe that God is immutable, and unchanging and that Jesus Christ the one from whom all the creation was made is the same today, yesterday and forever? Because again, if your answer is the affirmative then your reasoning is flawed. How then can a loving and immutable God bring judgment upon the whole world in Gen. 6 without an offering of repentance? Then again, we see the same judgment upon Sodom whereby in each case only a “few” were provided salvation by the grace of God. Yet, in the book of Jonah we see God telling Nineveh to repent and the result was accomplished. But, there is no requirement upon God. His fairness, His love and His justice who can challenge? If God is required by anything or anyone outside of His will, then that thing would in itself be god. Is that not what one does when they place a standard upon the Almighty? They place in question His integrity, His wisdom, His methods. Job did that and God confronted him over it and Job was repentant subsequently for his arrogance. Is that not what we do when we challenge God’s authority, and his plan? Are we now to question Him? Paul brings up this point in Romans 9; a chapter which every good Arminian dreads.

Then also I ask you according to your definition of grace, love and fairness: How many times must a person be presented with the gospel before they would be considered “rejecters?” For your whole premise lies in this balance does it not? God is not fair or loving unless everyone is allowed to hear the gospel and accept it or reject it you say; okay then. How many times must one hear and reject before the “superior judge” the one overseeing the Almighty is satisfied. Once, twice? Ten times, One hundred? What if the one hearing was not hearing “your gospel” all the while, but a false one, or another gospel, are they given more leniencies? Do they get a “mulligan?”

I will await you reply is you have one. If not, I will assume that either you cannot refute these arguments against the Arminian doctrinal heresy or perhaps you’ve done what I most sincerely hope which is to repent as did Job…

Sing F Lau
Take it any way one likes:

To offer life to a dead man on condition of his acceptance is a foolish thing;

To offer life to one already alive and able to respond to your so-called offer deserves a firm but gracious rebuke, "You offer comes TOOOOOOOO late! It is foolish, as well as redundant! "

Read a short article here: "Free Offer? To who?" http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2008/02/what-have-you-to-free-offer.html

Sing F Lau
I was once asked, " Is it right to freely offer Christ to all men?"
My reply was:
Your question PRESUPPOSES that the preaching of the gospel constitutes a free offer of Christ, and to all men. I question whether the preaching of the gospel constitutes a free offer of Christ at all? I do believe the preaching of the gospel is the heralding and proclamation of the good news of salvation already accomplished by God through the Lord Jesus Christ.

There IS NOT an offer of anything to any one. The hearers are called to believe the good news... and tell you what... ONLY those that ARE SAVED by God - i.e. already justified, regenerated and adopted, with the indwelling Spirit of God working faith in them - will receive the gospel. Why? Because the gospel of salvation is ALREADY TRUE of them by God's free grace through the effectual call.

As a preacher, I have nothing to offer to sinners. I am not sent to offer anything. I am send to preach the gospel, to announce the glad tidings of salvation already accomplished and applied, and call the hearers to believe the gospel.

I have good news of salvation to announce to my hearers. I call all the hearers to believe the good news... ALL THE TIME conscious that only God's children (i.e. elect already effectually called out of their state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation) would ever believe. All others will perceive the gospel as foolishness, and the preachers of the gospel as fools.

And I perceive the gospel preachers who offer Christ to those dead in sins as sincere BUT foolish preachers who try to offer beef burger to a dead man. To offer Christ to the dead is foolishness. To offer Christ to the children of God is redundant. To proclaim the gospel and call the hearers to believe the good news is wise.

Hold forth the good news of salvation and invite the hearers to believe it... and ONLY those who have eternal life among the hearers shall believe. WHOEVER BELIEVES HAS - HAS - HAS ETERNAL LIFE - is a declarative statement of fact, and not a conditional statement of offer - believe so that you may have life.

Bread is for the nourishing of the living!!! Foolish preachers think bread is for the dead to eat, so that they may have life.

Andrews ‎
@Sing F Lau. That's good stuff there Sing! You need to come over here in America...

Sing F Lau
The Lord has seen fit to put here where I am...

The grace of faith and its manifestation

There is explosive in everyone of those fire-crackers.
The manifestation of the explosive in the fire-crackers requires fire.
No fire, no manifestation of the explosive already in the fire-crackers.

The grace of faith is worked in every child of God by the Spirit of God. But that grace of faith worked in them requires the gospel ministry for that faith to be manifested outwardly. If there is no gospel ministry, there is no manifestation of that grace already worked in the heart.
Why is it so hard to understand this basic truth???
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Saintz
‎"In every instance where God has decreed an end, He has also decreed every means to that end. The One who decreed the salvation of His elect also decreed to work faith in them." - A.W. Pink

Sing F Lau
It is true... the indwelling Spirit works all the saving graces in each child of God, including the grace of faith.

However it is erroneous to then conclude that every one of God elect will hear the gospel and manifest that grace of faith in conversion.

The grace of faith worked within a child of God REQUIRES the gospel ministry as the instrument to draw forth that grace of faith within him.

Faith comes by hearing the gospel.

There are God's children who never lived old enough to hear or understand the gospel of their eternal salvation by grace.

There are God's children who do not have the mental capacity to hear or comprehend the gospel of the eternal salvation.

There are also God's children who are not reached with the gospel ministry, but live as those who fear God and work righteousness (because they were regenerated by God directly and without gospel means), and died and go to heaven.

There are also God's children who are reached with FALSE gospel, and are not converted to the true gospel of Jesus Christ. And there are many such in each generation.

There are also God's children who are reached with the true gospel, and are converted to vastly different degree to the gospel of Jesus Christ.

God DECREED the eternal salvation of His elect, and He has INDEED also decreed every means to that end... Amen and amen. BUT gospel conversion is MOST CERTAINLY not one of them... otherwise, EACH and EVERY elect shall be CONVERTED in exactly the same manner and to the same extent.

Sing F Lau
For the eternal salvation of God's elect, certain things has indeed been decreed, and these are stated plainly in the Scriptures:
"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be ...the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Here are the activities that have been decreed by God for the eternal glorification of ALL His elect. Eternal glory is the end decreed, the means to that end are also decreed

Please note that the divine activities stated in the passage here are all by God's free and sovereign grace: predestination, calling, justification and glorification are solely and wholly by the free and sovereign of God. Those acted upon in these divine activities are completely passive, and those acted upon in these divine activities are EQUALLY ACTED upon - they are ALL EQUALLY predestinated, called, justified, and glorified.

With this passage also, the Calvinists are confused and obtuse too! Why? They insisted that the justification here is justification by faith through the gospel ministry This is simply not possible, not true. Why?

Note first of all that the justification spoken of here APPLIES to EVERY SINGLE ELECT, every one predestinated unto eternal life. This passage speaks of that which is true of EVERY SINGLE ELECT, and that WHICH EQUALLY true of EVERY SINGLE ELECT.

The justification here simply cannot be the justification by faith, because there are God's children who are simply incapable of faith. PERIOD.

The question may be asked, why is regeneration not mentioned? Quite simple: application of the righteousness of life in justification necessarily include the impartation of eternal life based on the righteousness of life applied personally. Justification is the justification of life!

"17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto JUSTIFICATION of LIFE."

With the justification of life, eternal glory is already GUARANTEED.

Anything that involves human instrument is not under consideration... like the gospel call leading to conversion and justification by faith, and sanctification through the gospel ministry. These things are vital and important, but they PLAY no role in the eternal salvation of God's elect. These things are very useful for the well being of God's children while here on earth. And God's children experience them to vastly different measures and degrees!

Why? Because it was never decreed or fixed by God. How much a child of God is gospelly converted DEPENDS to a great degree upon many human factors.

Milne
Sing - in Romans 5 & 8, Paul is talking about justification through faith alone. It is absurd to say otherwise. And Paul himself is very seriously concerned with the necessity of people hearing the preaching of the gospel in order to be saved.

Romans 10:13-17
13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” 14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

What you say is very wrong, Sing, and as you attempt to defend your doctrine of undetectable regeneration (as opposed to the Biblical doctrine of regeneration, where it is always accompanied by repentance and faith) gets worse and worse every time I see comments by you. If what you say were true... and regenerate people might believe the gospel, they might believe a false gospel, they might believe no gospel... how could letters like 1 John ever be written, for example, where the evidences of regeneration are evident to those who observe? How could James say what he says in James 1? How could Peter say what he says in 1 Peter 1? Last time, you said that "this word is the good news that was preached to you" in 1 Peter 1:25 really meant that Jesus invisibly applied regeneration to the recipients of the letter apart from the preaching of the gospel. Have you come up with a better way to get around the clear teaching of 1 Peter 1, or do you intend to continue to obstinately refuse correction from the Scriptures and attempt to spread erroneous teaching regarding regeneration?

Sing F Lau
Do you realize that Apostle Paul speaks of different aspects of justification in Romans? Probably not!

When Apostle Paul marshaled Abraham to prove his point, what justification is he trying to prove to the Jews?

Please tell, was Abraham a justified man by God before Gen 15:1-6, or was he still a condemned man up to that point?

What is the justification spoken of in Gen 15:1-6?

When Apostle Paul speak of justification by the free grace of God through the redemption of Jesus Christ, and then he speaks of the justification by your believing act, is he speaking of the same justification?

Sing F Lau
Here is the 1Pet 1:25 passage:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
24 ¶ For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The gr...ass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
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What/who brought about the new birth? Scriptures or the life-giving Word of God, Christ? Answer this to your own satisfaction.

Just what/who is the word of God in verse 23, that is described as incorruptible, lives and abides for ever?

Scriptures informs me that the written word of God has so often be corrupted by MANY men! 2Co 2:17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ. What more with so many modern perversions of the written word of God!

I know One who is incorruptible, and beyond defilement, and who lives and abides forever!

What alternative are you left with - Just what/who is the word of God in verse 23

And between verse 24 and 25, what or who is being contrasted with flesh and man? Is the contrast between personal being (man) and thing (written Scriptures), or between personal being (man) and personal being (the word of God as in John 1:1)? Pick your choice and remain consistent.

To what does "the word" (v25b) refer back in the preceding?

In the statement, "And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" there are three separate matters:
- 'the word': this is the heart and subject of the gospel. Who/what is the heart and subject of the gospel? Is it the written Scriptures that is the heart and subject of the gospel, or is it A PERSON who is the heart and subject of the gospel?
- the gospel as revealed and contained in the written Scriptures.
- the gospel ministry.

You have a good day. It's nearly midnight here.

Milne
Ok, Sing, I just figured out what your problem is. You gave it away at the end of your second comment:
"Anything that involves human instrument is not under consideration... like the gospel call leading to conversion and justification by faith, and sanctification through the gospel ministry. These things are vital and important, but they PLAY no role in the eternal salvation of God's elect. These things are very useful for the well being of God's children while here on earth. And God's children experience them to vastly different measures and degrees!"

"Why? Because it was never decreed or fixed by God. How much a child of God is gospelly converted DEPENDS to a great degree upon many human factors."

You're so far off in the first paragraph you wrote there - as justification by faith is nothing less than essential to the eternal salvation of God's elect - because of the false dichotomy you're operating under in the second paragraph. You say there are things that were never decreed or fixed by God. Such is nonsense. All is decreed and fixed by God, including things that involve human instruments, human factors, etc. You're making the Arminian error (I expect you to be offended by that accusation, of course) of assuming that divine sovereignty can't co-exist with human responsibility, so in your attempt to protect the doctrine of God's sovereignty over salvation, you have to divide things into two categories - on one hand, we have everything God is sovereign over, and nothing in that category can involve human instruments or human factors, and on the other hand, we have everything else, that which God did not decree or fix, and that category is all dependent on human instruments and human factors. In the first category, you have 100% divine sovereignty and 0% human responsibility, and in the second category, you have 0% divine sovereignty ("it was never decreed or fixed by God") and 100% human responsibility. The Scriptures say that God saves his elect without fail. So you put that in the first category. And the the Scriptures say that people are responsible to preach the gospel and believe the gospel. So you put that in the second category.

That is wrong, though. Like it or not, God is sovereign over all. That means that he is sovereign over the preaching of his Word, he is sovereign over the believing of his Word and the rejection of his Word... he is sovereign over whether any particular person is converted, over how much any particular Christian grows in the faith, etc. He is sovereign, having decreed and fixed from eternity, everything involving every human factor that has ever existed or will ever exist. Hence, there is no reason to create a category of "things that were never decreed or fixed by God." When it comes to the category of things that involve human instruments and human factors... we have both 100% divine sovereignty and 100% human responsibility.

Justification is an act of God's free grace, yes... but that doesn't mean then that God does not work through secondary means (such as the preaching of the gospel and faith in the gospel) when he sovereignly and graciously accomplishes his work of justification.

Sing F Lau
There is no problem at my end. I can show you that the big problem lies in your own bosom, brother. You nurture a FATAL ERROR and yet are oblivious of it.

You declared, "justification by faith is nothing less than essential to the eternal salvation of God's elect." Let us suppose that this is true, then you must admit that WITHOUT faith, i.e. the act of believing and resting in Jesus Christ and His righteousness, there would be NO eternal salvation, no ifs and no buts.

Do you admit this? The law of non-contradiction requires this, does it not?

Go figure out the implications of your fatal statement of error. You have just excluded some elect from their eternal salvation.

Then also, another BIG problem of yours is this: you fail (or may be incapable, or completely ignorant of the biblical distinction) to distinguish the justification by God's free grace and the justification by the believing act of God's children.

This is on my wall presently: go and take a look at it.
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"Calvinists are confused, and obtuse too. "Faith thus receiving and resting on Christ and His righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification; yet it is not alone in the person justified, but ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but worketh by love." They read this and conclude that their faith is the mean to get them justified by God. Nothing can be further from the truth."
===========

There is no need to be offended. I offered many reasons to demonstrate the charge.

Sing F Lau
You will probably quote this to support your view: ""justification by faith is nothing less than essential to the eternal salvation of God's elect.""

"Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

With this passage also, the Calvinists are confused and obtuse!
Why? They insisted that the justification here is justification by faith!

This is simply not possible, not true. Why?

Note first of all that the justification spoken of here APPLIES to EVERY SINGLE ELECT, every one predestinated unto eternal life. This passage speaks of that which is true of EVERY SINGLE ELECT, and that WHICH EQUALLY true of EVERY SINGLE ELECT.

The justification here simply cannot be the justification by faith, because there are God's children who are simply incapable of faith - the act of believing and resting in Jesus Christ and His righteousness. PERIOD.

Next, please note that the divine activities here are all by His free and sovereign graces... predestination, calling, justification and glorification are all by the free and sovereign of God. Those acted upon in these divine activities are completely passive, and those acted upon in these divine activities are EQUALLY ACTED upon - they are ALL EQUALLY predestinated, called, justified, and glorified.

Why is regeneration not mentioned? Quite simple: application of the righteousness of life in justification necessarily include the impartation of eternal life based on the righteousness of life applied personally. Justification is the justification of life!

"17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto JUSTIFICATION of LIFE."

Anything that involves human instrument is not under consideration... like the gospel call leading to conversion and justification by faith, and sanctification through the gospel ministry. Why? Because not every child of will experience these temporal things.

And those who have, they experience them to vastly different measures and degrees!

Despite these OBVIOUS facts, the Calvinists continue to insist that the passage speaks of justification by their faith!

Milne
So... what was the substance in that response?
1. I still maintain that every single one of the elect is regenerated at some time or another in their life, and the consequence of the regeneration is faith and repentance every single time. Every single one of the elect is justified through faith alone by God's free grace. And I also maintain that no elect are excluded by that statement. I'm almost scared to ask what Biblical evidence you would provide to support the idea that there are some elect that are thereby excluded from salvation by this view... I don't want to see what passage of Scripture you will tortously interpret and stand on its head next!

Have you ever read any books on hermeneutics? Or listened to some lectures on it? You could benefit from that... plus logic. Check out aomin.org, there are many articles and essays by James White there, and his works are very useful in learning how to properly interpret the Scriptures as well as how to think clearly.

2. The justification by God's free grace is the justification by the believing act of God's children. These are not two different justifications. That is the justification that Paul is talking about in Romans 3, the justification he is talking about in Romans 4, the justification he is talking about in Romans 5, and the justification he is talking about in Romans 8. It's also the justification spoken of in Philippians 3 and in Galatians. The summary in the Westminster Shorter Catechism is a sufficient description of the Biblical doctrine:

Q. 33. What is justification?
A. Justification is an act of God’s free grace,[91] wherein he pardoneth all our sins,[92] and accepteth us as righteous in His sight,[93] only for the righteousness of Christ imputed to us,[94] and received by faith alone.[95]

[91] Romans 3:24. Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

[92] Romans 4:6-8. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. 2 Corinthians 5:19. To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

[93] 2 Corinthians 5:21. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

[94] Romans 4:6, 11. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works.... And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: Romans 5:19. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

[95] Galatians 2:16. Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Philippians 3:9. And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith.

Sing F Lau
Thanks for regurgitating all the old familiar undigested stuff.
Will do you good if you restudy the Scriptures a bit.

Supposing a man FREELY credited a $1b to your account and paid your debt while you were a condemned and declared bankrupt. And someone ...brought the good news to you. And you believed the good news of the FREE gracious act, and by faith you went to the bank to draw on the money.

It would be SCANDALOUS and TREACHEROUS of you to claim that your believing the good news and going to the bank caused the gift to be freely credited to your account!

Yet so many insist that... they are justified by God through their faith!

Sing F Lau
Q. 33. What is justification?
A. Justification is an act of God’s free grace,[91] wherein he pardoneth all our sins,[92] and accepteth us as righteous in His sight,[93] only for the righteousness of Christ imputed to us,[94] and received by ...faith alone.[95]
========

Do you understand what it means when it is said that justification is an act of God's FREE grace?

Do you understand that justification as an act of God's FREE grace is a DISTINCT and SEPARATE and independent act from that of the justified's act in receiving it?

When was Abraham justified by God's free grace?

When did Abraham receive it by faith?

Tell us if you know. Thanks.


Milne
Romans 5:1 - "Therefore, since we have been justified by faith..."

Scandalous!

Philippians 3:9 - "...not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith..."

Treacherous!

Besides, I already presented the definition of justification from the Westminster Shorter Catechism, which you missed the point of... in your illustration, faith would be the transfer of funds maybe, or possibly the signing of the form approving the transfer of funds into the account, but not the money itself (Christ's righteousness) or the giver of the money (God, by his grace).

Consider a different example. A rich man marries a poor lady. When they marry, she becomes rich. Her marriage vows are not the money itself, neither do they give the money. But they are the means whereby she becomes rich. The analogy breaks down, certainly, but it is in some measure analogous to what the apostle means in the above passages by his repeated references to faith and the role it plays in our justification. Our justification, too, like marriage, occurs in a covenantal framework... Jesus freely and graciously makes his covenant with the people chosen by his Father, and we enter into the covenant and receive the blessings of it (such as justification and forgiveness of sins) by faith (which is neither a meritorious work nor the grounds of our justification, but the means whereby we are justified). This is not opposed to or separate from justification by grace, for consider what Paul says about the role of faith and grace in justification in Romans 4:16 - "That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace..." Faith is trusting the promise of another, trusting in the works and merit of another, our Savior, Jesus Christ.

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

You will notice that this passage here - the beginning of Paul's discourse on justification after his discourse on sin in the epistle to the Romans - you will notice here that Paul says that justification is by grace (vs. 24), and you will see that Paul says that justification is through faith (vs. 22, 25, 26). The two are not opposed to each other or incompatible with each other or two different justifications.

Milne
Really, I don't know why this is so hard for you to comprehend. My answers to these questions aren't exactly new or novel or particularly insightful in some marvelous way. You could go to some place like monergism.com and read plenty of essays on justification there, for example...

"Do you understand what it means when it is said that justification is an act of God's FREE grace?"

Yes. God chooses freely who he will justify. He justifies sinners who have no merit of their own. There is nothing we can do to merit or earn justification. By grace we believe, and by grace we are justified through faith... just as that Romans 3:21-26 passage makes abundantly clear repeatedly.

Do you understand that justification as an act of God's FREE grace is a DISTINCT and SEPARATE and independent act from that of the justified's act in receiving it?

No. That would be like saying that me handing something to somebody else is an independent act from that of the person receiving it. There is no gift without the receiving of the gift. Distinct? Yes, one is the act of God and the other is the act of man. Separate? Yes, one is the act of God and the other is the act of man. Independent? No, it is like the giving and receiving of a gift. Scripture says we are justified by faith. Justification is a free gift of God's grace, and faith is another free gift of God's grace - and remarkably, God works in an orderly manner, giving the gift of justification to the same people that he gives the gift of faith to - and we receive that justification by faith at the time that God gives it, as the aforementioned Scriptures say.

"When was Abraham justified by God's free grace?"

When God gave him the gift of faith.

"When did Abraham receive it by faith?"

When God gave him the gift of faith... Abraham was an unregenerate, unjustified, unbeliever in the land of Ur, then God spoke to him, regenerated him, gave him the gift of faith, and Abraham believed God and then obeyed. When he believed God, he was justified by God's free grace. After God called him effectually, he became a regenerate, justified, believer in God.

And unless any of the spectators on this status want more, I'm done...

Sing F Lau
There is a justification that is by the FREE grace of God. In this justification, God deals with justly condemned sinners. This justification is NOT CONDITIONED on anything in those that needed to be justified, NOT EVEN their act of believing!

There is a justification that is CONDITIONED upon the believing act of God's children (only God's children can believe, only those who possess eternal life is able to believe).

That which is by God's FREE grace, and that which is CONDITIONED upon man's act of believing CAN'T POSSIBLY be the same. To insist that they are the same... is plain confusion and pure obtuseness.

If you can't distinguish the two, I suggest to hold your peace.

If you insist so, then no profitable communication between us is possible. I don't want to waste my time.
Sing F Lau
Was Abraham a justified man by God's free grace before Gen 15:1-6?
Was Abraham justified by his faith before Gen 15:1-6?

Thanks.

The hen and her chicks

What a grand mother hen!

“O Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not” (Matt. 23:37).

This is so often quoted to prove that Christ, since “He is the same yesterday, today, and for ever”, still vehemently desires to effect the salvation of sinners, and to this end He tries to gather them to Himself through striving with them by His Spirit, but that many are unwilling to be saved, and therefore resist the Spirit, and are thus lost and go to hell.

If that be the case, then what a pathetic and impotent Savior! And that's what Satan would want people to believe concerning Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God... His purpose to save His people is frustrated by men!

Hen gathers her chicks, but Christ is prevented from gathering His people?
But prevented in what sense?

The children of Jerusalem referred to by Christ ARE His people, those that have been regenerated and given eternal life. They are His, He has effectually called them unto eternal life. No one can hinder the effectual calling of an elect unto eternal life. But many can hinder children of God from professing Christ as their Lord and Saviour.

BUT they are prevented from coming to Him outwardly, i.e. professing Him as their Lord and Saviour publicly.

The religious leaders threatened them with all sorts of things from openly professing Christ. And it was a weighty and costly matter to those Jews to be expelled and ostracized from their Jewish community. It was a burden many cannot bear.

Joh 12:42 "Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue."

The elitist calvinists will WRITE OFF such children of God as unregenerated cowards! They proclaim that there can be no such among God's children.

In every generation, many of God's children are not converted through the gospel ministry!

Abe
He says, "thy children..." not "my children." This is a commentary from an old strict/particular baptist manual of faith...

"So, conversion is conditioned on freewill and the sovereignty of man now. This presents God as a frustrated beggar that cannot accomplish His own works of grace. This is what the Pelagians teach. It is synergism divorced from sovereign grace.

Joh 12:42 "Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue."

read the last 2 verses of John 2. Not all "believers" were true converts and regenerate children.

I can't find your view among the old school baptists. Only the conditional time-salvation Primitives. Even this view is not among all Primitives. But, its easy to spot out when one denies God's absolute sovereignty over all things and starts teaching a freewill and synergism time-salvation.

Sing F Lau
Abe, be careful NOT to impute to me thing I have not said. I suggest that you refrain. I do rejected your "So..." It may be your sincere conclusion, but that is not my belief.

"Thy children" because they were under the religious jurisdiction of those religious leaders. Why would Christ want to gather them if they were not His redeemed people?

Joh 12:42 "Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue."

The passage say "among the chief rulers also MANY believed on Christ." I take for granted that as many as believed on Jesus Christ DID SO because of the eternal life wrought in them.

Were the chief rulers' public profession of Christ hindered because of the fear of men? Yes, or no?

Was God's sovereignty frustrated here at all? It most certainly was IF - IF - IF divine sovereignty INDEED guarantees and ensures that each and every one of His children (sentient ones only, it sounds stupid to even qualify, as though the gospel ministry is intended for the non-sentient among God's children) is converted, make public profession of faith through the gospel ministry!

Is it to deny God's sovereignty to note the PLAIN FACT recorded here in John 12:42 - that some who believe in Jesus Christ DID NOT make public profession of faith in Christ, i.e. they were not converted?

Does God's sovereignty guarantee the conversion of every regenerated elect? Yes?

Also, does God's sovereignty also guarantee that each regenerate elect become a reformed calvinist? Are believers of Jesus Christ among the Arminians God's children then? And what about believers who are neither reformed nor arminians?

I remind you that the divine sovereignty is a double-edged sword. Be careful with it - it cuts both ways. So, handle it with great care!

Just what exactly do you want to make divine sovereignty to guarantee?

John 2:24-25 DO NOT say that Jesus did not commit himself to them BECAUSE "Not all "believers" were true converts and regenerate children." That is what you say! You assume that are the reasons!

Abe
Brother Sing, many of your questions and statements are irrelevant to the scripture and have no place in discerning doctrine from error.

Sing F Lau
That's a neat way of answering questions that exposes the irrationality and inconsistencies of one's interpretation.