Eternal, and Temporal Salvation

Colt posted:
"So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy...So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills." (Romans 9:16, 18 - ESV)

Sing F Lau
This is absolutely true, BUT with regard to our ETERNAL SALVATION only. Our eternal salvation is wholly and solely monergistic - no human activity is involved, such a preaching and believing, etc. Preaching and believing are effects and manifestations of the ETERNAL salvation that has been bestowed by God's free and sovereign grace.

When it comes to our temporal salvation, it is wholly synergistic, conditioned upon our obedient responses to God's will for us His children.

Colt
what do you mean by "temporal" salvation?

Sing F Lau
I am glad you asked. I asked the same question some years ago, and the Lord was pleased to show me some wonderful things that helped me rightly divide the word of truth.

There is a salvation that has been completely accomplished for the elect, and applied to each elect personally at God's appointed and approved time when God called each one out of the state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation. And God himself will consummate that salvation with glorification. All these entirely by God's work of grace alone, entirely without human aid or cooperation. This is eternal salvation... FREELY accomplished, freely applied, and freely consummated, all by divine acts alone, apart from human activities.

There is a salvation that God's children must work out for themselves... beginning at believing the truth of their eternal salvation that God has accomplished in Jesus Christ on the cross, and wrought in them personally at effectual calling. This believing DID NOT save them from divine wrath due to their sins; it saves from from lies and errors and falsehood. By walking soberly, godly, and righteously, God's children don't save themselves from eternal miseries, BUT save themselves from this perverse and crook generation, and all the consequences of sin in this life. Every sin has eternal and temporal consequences.

God's works in Christ saved us from the eternal consequences of our sins. That's eternal salvation, delivering God's children from the eternal consequences of their sins.

Our obedience to God's will will save us from the temporal consequences of our sins here in this life. That's temporal salvation - it pertains to our salvation/deliverance in this life only.

Apostle Peter told the Jews (devout and God-fearing Jews!) on the day of Pentecost to SAVE THEMSELVES, NOT from eternal hell, but from that perverse generation. Their believing will save them from being destroyed together with the wicked Jews by the Romans armies that was prophesied were coming upon Jerusalem... happened in AD 70.

Anything that requires man's response has to do with his temporal salvation. It is only someone whom the Lord God has bestowed eternal salvation that is able to respond to God's command to act spiritually, like hearing, believing and repenting and obeying... and knowing and growing. Those dead in trespasses and sins can't respond to God's command to act spiritually.

An article may answer your question more adequately.
I will post a link later.

Sing F Lau
Believing is most certainly an active act involving human mind AND will.

Preaching the gospel is ALSO most certainly an active exertion of human effort to reach the minds of others.

But these and much others activities of men are RULED OUT COMPLETELY in THE salvation spoken of in the passage, i.e. ETERNAL salvation.

In other passages, salvation is closely conditioned upon both preaching and hearing the gospel, and believing and obeying.

There is no contradiction between the two set of passages in the Scriptures.

The former speaks of the eternal salvation by God's free grace alone in Christ alone. 'Free' means free; and 'grace' means grace; many will adulterate the free-ness and graciousness of ETERNAL salvation by ADDING something, somewhere, along the way. Each man is an arminian to the core.

The later speaks of the temporal salvation that God's children are commanded to work out for themselves by the grace of God enabling them.

Failure to distinguish the TWO distinct and different salvation causes so much confusions, inconsistencies, and contradictions, in Arminianism, and no less in Calvinism!


Sing F Lau
Here's an article that you may find helpful.

Zion’s Advocate-May 15, 1858
Time Salvation

To the readers of Zion’s Advocate.

DEAR BROTHERS AND SISTERS.-It seemed good to me at this time to address a short epistle of love to you to stir up your pure winds by way of remembrance, that you stand fast in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free. Relieving that much of our spiritual enjoyment in this life depends upon our conformity to the admonitions and precepts of Christ and the apostles; that there is a Time Salvation to be enjoyed in obedience only. The humble and faithful child of grace that devotes itself to the duties laid down in the New Testament will be more spiritually minded than the careless negligent one; to such the cross will be easier and the burden lighter, he or she will have the answer of a good conscience and peace of mind, enjoy fellowship with Christ and his people, and be able in a good degree to resist the temptations of the devil, and to mortify their own fleshly lust. While we live in a careless indifferent state, we are sure to grow carnally minded, which will be succeeded by blindness, coldness, indifference and darkness, which will give the enemy the advantage of us, and we pierced through with many sorrows, lose sight of our acceptance with God, and perhaps the fellowship of the saints, and become as salt that has lost its savor. How important then that we watch and pray, take up our cross daily and follow Jesus through evil and good report; be careful to maintain good works at all times and in every place, that we watch ourselves with constant guards. Then would our light so shine that others seeing our good works would glorify our father, which is in heaven.

Dear brethren and sisters let us take the admonition of St Paul to the Philippians “Work out your own salvation with fear and with trembling, for it is God that worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” This is not God’s salvation that saves souls from death. God’s salvation was wrought by our Lord Jesus Christ on Mount Calvary, and by his holy spirit wrought in his people in the work of regeneration, and is that which worketh in us to will and to do of his own good pleasure and which qualifies us for working out our own salvation with fear and with trembling. As before hinted, our own salvation here mentioned is a time salvation, and we must work it out or go without it. God has only in the gospel, commanded his people to do that which they can do by his “working in them the will and to do,” and if we do it not then we may expect the rod with many stripes. But if we work it out, we honor God and our Lord Jesus Christ, and save ourselves from the evils that we are subject to, and that are incident upon a wayward life. This is a delightful work when we are in the right frame of mind for it, and to be in the right frame we must go to work (not to the law but to the gospel) and in performing our duty, our minds become spiritualized enough for another and so on throughout the whole.

One great duty is prayer, both secret and family prayer, another is giving attendance at prayer meetings, especially monthly meetings, but no light excuse keeps us away from meetings. Another duty is attending to the ordinances in due season, another is cultivating love with the brethren and watching over them for good (not for evil) and especially watching over ourselves, endeavoring to shun every appearance of evil. I do not believe that by anything we can do, will alter our relation with God as parent and children. But by obedience, we draw nigh to God, and he draws nigh to us with an approving smile. While the disobedient child lives under his frowns and the sore chastisements of his righteous and just rod.

In conclusion, dear brethren and sisters, permit me to say what I understand close walking with God is, simply taking Bible directions; therein we honor God and realize the benefits ourselves.- Finally read the scriptures, which are able to make us wise unto salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. Amen.

M. HODGES.
Fountain Head, Tenn., March 11, 1858.

The Order of Salvation

Line by line, stalk by stalk; orderly laid out.

The Order of Salvation

Introduction

It is helpful to distinguish the various elements in the Ordo Salutis into DISTINCT and LOGICAL phases

a. Salvation purposed by God... in eternity, before time.
b. Salvation accomplished by Jesus Christ… at the cross.
c. Salvation applied by the Holy Ghost... to each elect personally.
d. Salvation experienced... through faith in Jesus Christ.
e. Salvation consummated… at resurrection and glorification at Christ return.


2. In the salvation purposed or decreed, there are:

- Election by the Father...
- Foreknowledge...
- Predestination by the Father...
- Christ appointed as their Mediator...
- etc etc. See Mt 25:34; John 17:24; Eph 1:4,5,11; 1Pet 1:20; Rev 13:8, 17:8; Acts 2:23


3. In the salvation accomplished by Jesus Christ:

a. Incarnation, the eternal Word made flesh, Son of God was born. John 1:1,13;

- The Son of God was born first, then sent officially at water baptism. Gal 4:4, Mt 3:17.
- Perfect sinless life of obedience to all the laws of God secured the righteousness needed for the justification of His people under condemnation of sin and death. No righteousness, no justification!
- Substitutionary death to bear away the righteous wrath of God, secured forgiveness of sins. Rm 5:18.
- Christ lived the life we must live, and died the death we deserve to die. He is a perfect substitute for both, in securing our righteousness which we do no have, and suffered the wrath that we deserved, and secured the forgiveness that we need.
- Christ resurrection unto power and glory… vindication of all that He claimed and taught.

b. LEGAL justification: all the sins of all the elect that God the Father has given to Christ, were imputed to Christ, and Christ suffered for them fully; Christ righteousness was imputed to each and every one of them – all whose names had been written in the Book of Life before the foundation of the world. All the names of those that are given to Christ by the Father had been written in the Book of Life. Phi 4:3, Rev 13:8, 17:8.

- (I know many will jump and rave at this... let me just remind you that the condemnation of sin in Adam's sin was EVEN SO imputed to all he represented at the fall.) Rom 5:18.

c. Justification by the faith/righteousness/blood of Christ is different from Justification by grace and is different from Justification by believing in Jesus Christ. Take note of the distinction, and the context.
- There is vast difference between the faith OF Christ (the faithfulness of Christ which secured our redemption, Rom 3:22-24) and a man’s faith IN Christ (a man’s act of believing and resting in Christ)
- By faith of  Christ: Rm 3:22, Gal 2:16,17, 3:22. Ph 3:9…. By God’s free grace: Rm 3:24, Eph 2:8-9, Rm 8:30, Tit 3:7. By faith in Christ: Gal 3:26, Col 1:4, 2:5, John 3:15,16, Jam 2:24.
- Both faith in Christ, and works of righteousness are EVIDENCES of salvation, they evidence salvation.
- Justification by the righteousness/blood/faith of speaks of the legal basis of justification.
- Justification by God’s free grace declares the manner the righteousness of Christ is applied to us.
- Justification by the believer's faith in Jesus Christ declares the means to experience the blessings of justification.


4. In the salvation applied to individual by the Holy Spirit:

a. It is HERE that sinners become PERSONALLY and VITALLY affected. What was LEGAL for the whole elect is APPLIED to each individual personally. How is it applied to spiritually dead sinners?
- Before salvation is applied upon an elect personally, he is dead in trespasses and sins. He is in enmity against God. He is ungodly. He is a child of wrath. He is a rebel, etc. Eph 2:ff
- In such condition, the sinners are absolutely passive when acted upon by God's gracious and powerful act of applying eternal salvation to them. They are utterly unable to aid or cooperate or assist in the application of the accomplished salvation to them personally.
- In fact, in their native state of sin and death, they are in active enmity and rebellion against God.

b. When salvation is applied, God freely and effectually calls a sinner who is by nature in the state of SIN and DEATH to that state of GRACE and SALVATION… Rom 5:18. Eph 2:8-9
- Salvation applied brings a sinner from a state of condemnation of death to that of justification of life.
- It must be applied FREELY, without man meeting any condition – if there were any condition imposed that sinners must meet, it would be disastrous, for none could ever be met. None would ever be saved.
- In the OT, the application is based prospectively (looking forward) on the work Christ will do; in the NT it is based retrospectively (looking back) on the work Christ has done. There is only one SAME basis.

c. In effectually calling a sinner out of the state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation, God by His free and sovereign grace and power must execute these gracious acts - in these exact NUMBER and LOGICAL ORDER – justification, regeneration, adoption, Spirit of adoption.
- Justification to remove the condemnation... by APPLYING the righteousness of Christ to the individual elect personally. This JUSTIFICATION BY GOD'S GRACE gives divine warrant/basis for the Holy Spirit to regenerate an elect dead in trespasses and sins. Rm 5:18                       
- Regeneration to remove spiritual deadness, and bring the justified to eternal life, communion with God.
- Adoption of the regenerated to remove the alienation, and bring him into the family of God...
- And the giving of the Spirit of adoption to dwell in the child of God, who works all the saving graces in them. John 1:12-13, Rm 8:15, Gal 4:6

d. All these, i.e. justification by grace, regeneration, adoption, and the bestowal of the Holy Spirit to dwell in the child of God happen in that LOGICAL ORDER, but chronologically, they are simultaneous.
- Effectual calling out of the state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation is an instantaneous and gracious act by God’s free grace FREE, and involves all the above distinct divine acts.
- One who is effectually called by God to grace and salvation is fully and perfectly FITTED for eternal glory... Nothing more is needed for eternal glory. Eternal salvation is by grace ALONE… plus nothing!
- God the Spirit sovereignly applies eternal salvation to each and every one whom He gave to His Son, and for whom Christ died to redeem. Eternal salvation is by grace ALONE… plus nothing!
- This is ETERNAL SALVATION... by God's free grace PLUS nothing. Grace alone means grace alone, and not grace alone plus something. Eternal salvation is by grace ALONE… plus nothing!


5. In salvation experienced and evidenced by the gospel ministry:

a. One who is effectually called is enabled/capacitated by the Holy Spirit working in him the manifold graces of salvation, including the grace of faith and repentance, works of righteousness, fear of God. Behold Cornelius, the Ethiopian eunuch, the devout Jews on the day of Pentecost, etc. etc. who were converted. Effectual call to grace and salvation makes conversion possible!  Gal 5:22, Eph 5:9

b. When such a one is reached with the gospel ministry, he is able to respond to the gospel call to repentance and faith. The gospel truth is ALREADY true of him... God has freely applied salvation to him. When he believes, his faith evidences the salvation that has been applied to him by God's free and sovereign grace.
- The gospel ministry is the means appointed by God to gather His children He has begotten into the churches of Jesus Christ. They are sheep, they needed to be gathered into the sheepfold, and be nourished, and taught to live godly, soberly and righteously. They are harvest of the Lord. Feed them… gather them in.
- When he believes, his experiences in a most personal way the love of God in Christ for him...

c. The gospel ministry is absolutely important for his well-being as a child of God. The gospel ministry plays absolutely no role in his being as a child of God. The gospel ministry instructs and informs and edifies and nourishes a child of God. It bring temporal salvations.  Phi 2:12 – work out your own salvation.
- The gospel ministry does not play any role in giving eternal life to a sinner... But it is absolutely needful for their well-being, for their temporal salvation here and now in this life on earth.
- Each of God's children by His free and sovereign grace, experiences and evidences a VASTLY different degree of benefits from the gospel ministry. Some have none... others have little... still others have husk feed to them... some are well nourished under faithful gospel ministry... More or less, each and everyone of them are fitted for eternal glory by God's free and sovereign grace.


6. In salvation glorified/consummated

a. You fill in the blank... if you can... it is too wonderful for me too express it in words.
This is the only order of salvation I have learned from the Scriptures.
This is not to deny that men have come up with many DIS-orders.
This is just my feeble understanding.
If you have better ideas... set it before me and we can consider them.

Some features of Charismania

Some features of Charismania

Sing F Lau
Someone asked: What are the distinct features/characteristics of a charismatic church compared with a church that is not charismatic?
April 4 12:37pm

Sing F Lau
Another gave this reply:
1. They exalt supposed spiritual gifts over love of the brethren and sound doctrine.
2. They exalt the ministry of the Holy Spirit over the Lord Jesus Christ.
3. They exalt women into official roles in the church that ...the Bible condemns.
4. They exalt spiritual "gifts" that ceased to exist nearly 2000 years ago.
5. They resent sound doctrine and replace it with noise, entertainment, and fables.
6. They have a history that does not extend back further than about 1901.
7. They exalt so-called healing and other "miracles" over preaching God's word.
8. They pretend to divine inspiration to come up with new, heretical doctrines.
9. They preach with a lot of sound bites but very little or no substance.
10. They falsely believe they have the gifts and power of the apostles of Christ.

Bell
And why do you suppose that spiritual gifts ceased to exist nearly 2000 years ago? Gifts are never to be exalted, only Christ. While we do not attend a charismatic church, I do believe that non-charismatic churches exalt doctrine and still do not exalt Christ.
Sing F Lau
Sassy Belle from the Hill, go and tell them off if they don't exalt Christ! Whack them HARD!

I do believe ALL revelatory gifts are gone... with the disappearance of the apostles. When there is no more revelation, there is no more need of revelatory gifts! Just common sense to me.

Bell
I probably should not have said that non-charismatic churches exalt doctrine, in many cases, that would be a plus. Some exalt football games, prosperity, peace, etc. While I commend sound doctrine, Jesus Christ MUST be our message....(as Apostle Paul) called it in Romans 15...gospel of Christ, which he FULLY preached!

Bell
Brother Sing...NEVER trust common sense. God is so much bigger than our common sense. And when is there no more need for revelation? I would love to see more Christians receive the revelation of Christ! Apostle Paul had it....and he determined to know nothing other than Jesus Christ & Him crucified! Everything that we understand, Christ has to reveal to us! We receive it line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little. Is 28:10

Sing F Lau
God's truth is never contrary to common sense, or irrational or illogical - that's what I mean. If only believers observe that basic axiom, they would save themselves from so much so much common errors. Common sense will filter away most of the prevailing errors.

Jesus Christ CAN'T be preached without sound doctrines... truth concerning Christ and his work of redemption must be presented truthfully. So many peddle and hawk false Jesus and lies about Jesus.

Bell
How can we exalt common sense! It stems from human beings! I look back at things that the LORD led me to do that was contrary to common sense! What Abraham did was contrary to common sense. Moses was hesitant to lead the people because ...common sense told him that he was not a good speaker. Jonas knew God & His mercy well enough that his common sense made him disobedient....and on & on!! Actually...I hear little of Jesus even hawked today. The Church MUST bring Christ back to the forefront. No wonder He stands at the door of this Laodicean church and knocks. He has been left out!

Sing F Lau
Much of what we see today is Church-ianity and Nice-ianity. There is little Christ-ianity.
And who is exalting common sense? Too many despise common sense and end with tortuous interpretations.

Deal
Amen Bro. Sing

Bell
The preaching of the cross of Christ is illogical! Does it make logical sense that by one mans death, many could be made righteous? Brother, I do not doubt that you are a very intelligent man. Perhaps too intelligent. I know of a dear Christian man who is slightly retarded, who simply loves and serves God wholeheartedly. When he witnesses Christ, it is like music flowing! He probably could not explain the word "doctrine" yet he has been made a possessor of the life of Christ!

Hart ‎
1) could be made righteous ; 2) not-so-intelligent minister; 3) music flow 4) new birth processing via "Message of the Cross"

Bell
Word twister Richard read Romans 5:19

Hart
‎"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." .. Does the word of God say, 'could' or 'shall'? Did I twist your word?

Page
oh no, someone is charisphobic!! akin to xenophobic

Sing F Lau
Sassy Bell @ "The preaching of the cross of Christ is illogical!"
Tell me which part of it is illogical? And illogical to who? Are these logical and reasonable questions?

Sassy Bell @ "Does it make logical sense that by one mans death, many could be made righteous?"
It makes PERFECT LOGICAL SENSE because God appointed the death of Jesus Christ as the substitute of the many. I fear you may be slandering that God is illogical and senseless.

Sassy Bell @ "Brother, I do not doubt that you are a very intelligent man."
I am very flattered... I speak as a fool. I avoid a flatterer as I would a plague!

Cunningham
If preaching of the cross is illogical this confirms Galatians 5:11 that the cross is a stumbling block and a scandal and offense.

"How can we exalt common sense! It stems from human beings!" To that I say common sense was created by God just as a mind body and spirit. God gives us this to discern to call that illogical is to call something God meant for God evil. Genesis 50. Why also then does the book of proverbs speak so much of wisdom and that God created it for his glory.

Bell
The preaching of the Cross is to them that perish foolishness....! And God didn't make us to be unemotional zombies! And God didn't give us common sense to discern, He gave us His Holy Spirit!

Sing F Lau
Sassy Belle @ "And God didn't make us to be unemotional zombies!"
But surely God made man with a rational faculty... and I wonder when people who reject the COMMON SENSE axiom that life must precede the activities of that life are not spiritually blind and common sense tells me that spiritually blind is different from spiritually dead because it is common sense to different a dead man from a blind man . Go, goading, Belle from Bellyville!
Bell
Highly intelligent people have a difficult time getting past their intelligence the same as wealthy people have in not trusting in their wealth. I am glad that I am not rich or intelligent enough to trust in either! Yes, He made us with a... rational faculty but He still tells us to trust in Him. A human being must use what sense He gave us as long as He is not steering one way or another, but I have to be ready to go His way if He sends in a different direction, whether it makes sense to me or not.

Sing F Lau
Not just your soul... sing with your mind ALSO!
1Co 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

God doesn't ask rational man made in His image to trust in irrational and nonsensical thing!

"COME NOW, LET US REASON TOGETHER, SAITH THE LORD!"
God Himself supposes that His people have common sense... can't reason with people WITHOUT common sense, e.g those who insist that the condemned can believe in order to be justified by God; the dead can believe in order to get life; salvation is to be offered to the dead; etc...

A pinch of common sense would have saved God's children from so much lies and errors. Common SOUND gets many into troubles.

Page
‎"Highly intelligent people have a difficult time getting past their intelligence" I ain't smert but that is a dumbest thang I have heerd! do ignorant people have a hard time getting past their ignorance? hell, I don't know!

Sing F Lau
‎"Highly intelligent people have a difficult time getting past their intelligence" I ain't smert but that is a dumbest thang I have heerd!
=========
Only a sassy belle from the hill is capable of such profound statement.

Martin
I would like to see where in the bible it states that the Spiritual gifts were done away with when the last Apostle died. There is nothing perfect in this fallen world, so don't tell me that the cannon of scripture is perfect.

Bell
We must always remember to contend for "the faith" that was once delivered to the Saints, the same faith that saints lost their life for! Lifting up our natural wisdom is not that faith! I also believe that no spiritual gifts were done aw...ay with. The fact that most do not possess & many have never witnessed does not make them done away with. I also am fallible and I want to remain teachable into my old age. God has more for us "old folks" if we're not too proud & self-sufficient to stay a Berean.

Sing F Lau
Hodges @ "My point was that the spiritual gifts DIDN'T cease"
========
You have to define first what are the spiritual gifts in your assertion, otherwise you may be talking about different things.

Of course many spiritual gifts continue. Certain specific gifts, REVELATORY in nature, they have ceased, and that's what the author meant. But you didn't read in context, began raving...

8 ¶ Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
Bell
Although I am not Bro Hedges....I think no Christian would believe that knowledge has vanished away. In fact, knowledge is increased in these last days. Tongues, prophecies, even knowledge will not be needed when the Lord returns for His ...Church & at the resurrection. Love though, will last eternally! The verses (I believe) is speaking of is when we will see Him face to face. Brother, I know for myself through experience that they have not passed away. I try to steer clear from quoting experiences however. I say this is one case when it is GREAT to covet......covet the best gifts...which I believe will be the ones the Lord wants us to have. He wants to equip His Church individually for spiritually warfare corporately. Anyone else....care to reason together?

Sing F Lau
Now Grandma Janet, that is the whole problem. Do you think apostle is speaking of that kind of knowledge?

How could the faculty of knowledge pass away? If the faculty of knowledge passes away, then man will turn in beasts!
How could knowledge... pass away if we are commanded to grow in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ?

I have told you before that so many are afflicted with the prevalent disease call 'sound-byte-itis', a disease that cause men to be carried away by the SOUND, instead of SENSE! Looks like you are not spared from this dreadful disease.

Come to my clinic and get a cure for it.

Just what knowledge is Paul speaking, do you know? What is the CONTEXT of that passage? Don't get carry away by sound! That's why so many got carried away by Obama

How were the Apostles and prophets of the infant NT church able to preach Christ so ably from the OT Scriptures alone? Do you know, granny? Tell us the answer, granny!

Bell
Pastor Sing...we also know that it is not speaking of spiritual knowledge ceasing here on earth. We are instructed to grow in the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. But when that which is perfect is come (Jesus), we will have the knowled...ge that the angels now have. We will see Him face to face. Prophecies will not be needed then, they will have been fulfilled. Tongues will cease as we will commune directly with Him, face to face. It amazes me that we fallen mankind can have such an undeserved honor bestowed upon us. Sorry Bro....this old Grandma is afflicted with the condition Apostle Paul called "apt to teach". 2 Tim. 2:24

Page
I'll be glad when riddles shall cease!

Sing F Lau
That which is perfect/complete cannot refer to Jesus Christ!

That which is perfect or complete was partial/incomplete at the time of Paul' writing 1 Cor epistle.

It would be madness to attribute incompleteness/partness to Jesus Christ at any ...time!

Also that which is perfect is in the neuter gender. 'Jesus' is in the masculine gender, so also 'heaven'!

Bell
I believe it is speaking of His return, when His kingdom is complete and we reign with Him. Obviously Christ is the only perfect one although His new earth will be perfect too. Perhaps it is speaking of that.
Sing F Lau
Riddles will not cease until the end of time... for which reason this commands remains in force until then:
"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." "2Ti 2:15.

The gift of knowledge mention is a special revelatory gift for the apostolic church - to enable them to KNOW and UNDERSTAND the OT and preach Christ from it.

Post-apostles church have the NT delivered unto them... the NT is the infallible interpreter of the OT. The special gift cease when the NT is given. In place of that gift is this command, "STUDY... STUDY... STUDY... to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

Sing F Lau
Granny, believe what you want! That's your privilege as a granny!

Bell
Without revelation, studying might not help. "Ever learning .....etc" You obviously enjoy studying. Sorry to see that you have shut yourself off to those gifts. Fortunately, the Lord still enlightens and you might see differently in time. I will hush on the subject in case others want to chime in.

Page
OK, I have that which is perfect and it is upon me to proclaim. It is fulfilled in your midst. Paul would be appreciative of this and jealous of our possibilities. if Paul was here he would turn our world upside down and the alliance of evangelical churches would do their best to destroy him.

Sing F Lau
Divine Revelation gives us the Holy Scriptures.
Divine enlightenment gives us understanding of the revealed Scriptures/
Don't mix the two...Common sense distinction is the essence of sound theology!

Martin
If you think the new testament is," that which is perfect", better get out your common sense and examine it. There is no way that those people who developed the cannon of the new testament was perfect in their thought and translations of th...e documents that they studied with their infallible minds. Come on Sing, use your good COMMON SENSE. DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE THAT THEY WERE INFALLIBLE, THAT THEY WERE PERFECTLY GUIDED BY GOD TO DO WHAT THEY DID. Talk about a stretch from common sense to foolishness. What a gift!
Sing F Lau
What make you think that I think the the new testament is, " that which is perfect." I didn't write in Chinese or Melayu, did I?

Sing F Lau
Joe charged that the cessationists are eliminating 3 chapters out of the new testament.

Let me called you a BLATANT LIAR, and this remains unless you can prove that your statement is true.

I, as a cessationist, say that the three revelatory gifts in 1 Cor 13:8 have passed away.

So, reload your hot-air gun and aim at the target correctly, otherwise, please hold your peace. I don't tolerate raving nor ranting here.

Martin
Sing, I get the indication from the following which is a part of a above post you made: Post-apostles church have the NT delivered unto them... the NT is the infallible interpreter of the OT. The special gift cease when the NT is given. In place of that gift is this command, "STUDY... STUDY... STUDY... to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. It look like in english this means that you equate the NT with that which is perfect and now we no longer need the gifts.

Martin
Sing, I love your post and have learned a great deal from you. Hang in there and keep on making me think. You do not in any way offend me, on the contrary, I am encouraged by you. You are kind of blunt and I like that.

Bell
Pastor, you assume that the revelatory gifts were given to the Apostolic church to reveal Christ in the Old Testament. Christ walked with the Apostles, they learned from him directly, yet it required Paul who wrote much of the New Testament to at times help the Apostles to understand the "gospel of Christ". And how was it revealed to Paul if revelatory gifts were done away with. Do you not know that the Holy Spirit is meant to lead us and guide us in all truths. He is meant to be our "helper". My all means STUDY, study deeply but do I what I do and ask Him to be my teacher, reveal His truths to me. Reveal to me what I am not understanding. One hour of study my helper can do what a year of study time alone cannot do.
Sing F Lau
Hodge, I said you are raving and ranting... not the Scriptures. You are raving and ranting when you accused the cessationists for eliminating 3 chapters from the NT. If you don't prove that charge, then you are a BLATANT LIAR...

Sing F Lau
‎"it look like in english this means that you equate the NT with that which is perfect and now we no longer need the gifts."
========
In English and in CONTEXT it means that when the revelation of Scriptures was completed, those REVELATORY GIFTS ceased. Common sense, isn't it... those revelatory gifts became redundant... when they have the completed Scriptures, and when there was no more to be revealed.

Bell
OH....I see what Pastor Sing is saying...cessationists are not eliminating them, merely that they have passed away! Gone either way as I see it! I don't think I would call the Bro. a liar for not seeing the difference.

Sing F Lau
Christ walked with the Apostles, they learned from him directly, yet it required Paul who wrote much of the New Testament to at times help the Apostles to understand the "gospel of Christ". And how was it revealed to Paul if revelatory gift...s were done away with.
-----------
Did Apostle Paul write to help the other Apostles? Read all his epistles again!
You asked, "And how was it revealed to Paul if revelatory gifts were done away with?"
When Apostle Paul was writing, the revelatory gifts were still operating in the apostolic church. The doing away of those revelatory gifts was FUTURE with respect to the apostolic church, but a PAST fact with respect to us.

8 ¶ Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Note the future tense.

'Perfect' is contrasted with 'in part', 'That which in part' and 'that which is perfect' refer to the ONE SAME THING... at the time of Paul's writing, it was in part (incomplete), but was progressing towards completion.

Bell
No Paul didn't write to Peter...he withstood him to his face because he was to be blamed! And yes, now we see in part, we see through a glass darkly. Of course you know the rest of what Granny believes! We are still progressing towards completion, when this fallen world is gone and we reign with Him.

Sing F Lau
Granny, to say that the revelatory gifts - HAVE FAILED, CEASED, VANISHED AWAY - is NOT THE SAME as eliminating 3 chapters from the NT. Hodges made a serious accusation and he won't admit it! So, he remains a LIAR.

Granny , you wrote, "...Paul who wrote much of the New Testamen...t to at times help the Apostles to understand the "gospel of Christ"." That's is a FICTION, a FABLE.

Bell
Paul understood grace and he understood it as it applied to the gentiles. Brother, have your eyes or spirit never witnessed anything to prove to you otherwise?

Sing F Lau
No granny. I am just a little ignorant gentile shown abundant mercy by our Lord Jesus Christ. I am mighty thankful that Paul was an apostle to the gentile. And here ends this thread.

Bell
I meant have you never witnessed anything to prove otherwise that the 3 gifts have not ceased.
Sing F Lau
You asking me to trust in human experiences over the PLAIN revealed word of God?????????????????????????????????????????????

What use or value is my experiences or witnesses in comparison to the Scriptures?

Granny, think of a very simple point. IF apostle Paul meant that those revelatory gift SHALL FAIL, CEASE and VANISH AWAY at the end of the gospel age, ISN'T that a very redundant and obvious??? Wouldn't the same happen to all the other gifts???

Then why did Paul single out only those three revelatory gifts, and declare that those REVELATORY gifts SHALL FAIL, CEASE and VANISH AWAY??? Doesn't that tell us something?

Please, make sure that our interpretation of Paul's words don't end up making Pauls appear as a irrational and inconsistent idiot!!!

Bell
Have you never heard a spoken prophecy that came to pass. Or witnessed tongues and interpretation that sang the praises of our Lord ....equal possibly to when the angels sang on high! Do not trust human common sense but that is why we hav...e been given His Holy Spirit, & He is a discerning Spirit! Paul makes it obvious that those will not be needed when we are dwelling with the Master. He compares this world to being a child but the next life to being a mature man and knowing fully.
Sing F Lau
Any prophecy that has anything to do with the revelatory gift of prophecy in 1 Cor 13:8 COMES TOO LATE... the revelation of God was completed TOO LONG AGO.

So, you and I are talking about quite different things!

Thanks for the conversations.
Have a good day granny.

Page
I was raised Pentecostal so I have been there done that, but in all my upbringing I never really saw anyone submitting their gifts (one possible exception) to allow revered and learned men approve and give their amen to what had been prophesied. Always in everything the scriptures have to be predominant and tested by them.

That which is first is natural, common, and then the spiritual. The move of the Spirit never takes the place over the common rendering of scripture. If a woman who is very "spiritual" will not yield to men who are learned but not "spiritual" she has a problem and the church has a problem. She must ask her husband at home about these things and HAS to submit to revered MEN who judge her by the common rendering of scripture.

Sing F Lau
Hodges, when men make ignorant statements, the honors is yours to refute them by sound logical arguments... not RAVING and RANTING. I permit the former here, but not the latter. So, if you cannot abide by that simple rule, don't hang around. Get that?

Sing F Lau
Hodges, you want love?
Here it is real love: get it into the woolly head!

19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

What is the ground of one's duty?

What is the ground of one's duty and responsibility?

One's responsibility and duty is determined and defined
by covenant obligations.
It is that basic.

Sing F Lau
Nearly all insist that God commands, and it is the duty of all men without distinction to believe Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour. May I inquire, what is the ground of that duty?
They also argue that disability does not negate their duty - as though that is an issue. So what is the issue? May 05, 9.40pm

Sing F Lau
Would God require or hold a man responsible - whom He did not give Jesus Christ to be his Saviour, and for whom Jesus did not die to save - to believe in Jesus Christ?

Do you actually believe in such a schizophrenic god? To believe so is to impinge upon the moral character of God. He is not unjust as to require a man to believe that which is not true of him - to believe that he is redeemed when no redemption was provided for him. Wicked men require others to believe lies. Not the God of truth who has redeemed His people.

And it is not about ability. They miss the whole point!

It is about covenant obligations. One's responsibility and duty is determined and defined by covenant obligations. It is that basic.

The covenant of creation imposes certain definite obligations upon man as creatures of God. These obligations extend NO FURTHER than those embraced in the covenant of creation.

The covenant of redemption imposes certain obligations upon children of God (regenerated elect), and they are under obligation to believe the truth of their redemption by God's free grace. These obligations extend NO FURTHER than those embraced in the covenant of redemption.

The ground of of a man's duty and obligation are the covenant obligation.

Inability does not negate duty at all.
But redemptive grace provides the spiritual life for spiritual activities.

Ellis
The question is, does God require men that are not elect to repent and believe that Jesus is their Saviour? He is not their Saviour. But some say that the command is given to leave them men without excuse.

Sing F Lau
They are ALREADY without excuse enough from the general revelation in the covenant obligation as creatures of God's creation. There is NO NEED to make them more without excuse!!!

The non elect has PERFECT excuse not to believe in the divine court of law! They could charge God of requiring them to believe a lie - and that is not a small matter! Their condemnation will never be based upon their rejection of Jesus Christ. 

Ellis
Amen

Harrison
These are very interesting thoughts, Brother Sing. I have never thought about these things from this particular aspect/angle before. Thanks for sharing this!

Ellis
It comes from his deep sea diving experience in the South seas. :-)

Harrison
LOL! Well, to add in my two cents (you brethren please correct me if I am wrong) but as simply as I can think about this is in terms of what Jesus said:

"But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you." - John 10:26

It does not say that they believed not because they chose to reject Jesus Christ as their Savior. It says they believed not because they were not "of my sheep". That is a possessive prepositional phrase. They didn't believe because they did not BELONG to Jesus Christ or God the Father.

So, might I conclude that "believing not" and "rejecting Jesus Christ" is a RESULT/EFFECT of not being a child of God (and thus being left in your sins) and not the CAUSE of it??

I think it is simply understanding and applying the basic law of cause and effect.

Morrow
Brother Keith, you said: "The question is, does God require men that are not elect to repent and believe that Jesus is their Saviour? He is not their Saviour. But some say that the command is given to leave them men without excuse."
I don't think that is the question at all. The question is, "Does God have the right to command men to do something that He knows they neither can nor are disposed to do?" Jesus Christ is not only Savior, He is Lord. One day ...Every knee will bow....Every Tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. Do we agree that all men everywhere ..should...should....should acknowledge Jesus Christ as Lord? Christ is Savior only on the basis of His Lordship. Men who sincerely acknowledge Him as Lord show the evidence of the secret work of regeneration in their hearts because without that work of the Spirit they could not, nor would not bow before Him. And even though they can't and will not...should all men and devils and every other creature not bow before Christ as Lord?

Ellis
Sorry , I do not buy into Lordship salvation.

Sing F Lau
Dr Morrow, Lordship CANNOT be separated from the Saviorhood of Christ. He is Lord because He is the Messianic King - "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name o...f the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."

And He is Messiah of His own, those given to Him by the Father to redeem. And that is the SPECIFIC and PARTICULAR context of the great commission.

Thomas
Perhaps the question is: Why would someone portray God as being so irrational as to demand belief from those that He knows cannot believe?

Walters ‎
"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." John 3:36

Notice the verse does not say they are condemned because they did not believe, but that the wrath of God abides on those who do not believe. It's not because of this unbelief that they are condemned!

Morrow
OK Brother Keith...do you buy into non-lordship salvation?

Ellis
Salvation by grace plus nothing.

Davis
What status did the High Priest have, as it would relate to "Lordship." Is intervention with the Father (by the High Priest), and intervention for our "groaning" by Jesus, to God, parallel. If so, and that is Lordship, I'm not concerned about the term. Yet, if Lordship means we are to please our master by good works (including "stop sinning"), then I agree with Elder Keith Ellis. Yes, salvation comes only by "accepted" grace. Faith is a "nothing" kind of work.See More

Thomas
"nothing" kind of work." Ac 17:30 "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:"

Morrow
Mark, Why would someone portray God as being so irrational as to demand conformity to His Law from those that he knows cannot keep it? And yet that is what He did to Israel. You need to quit worrying about rationality or irrationality and just believe the Bible. As far as Lordship salvation is concerned I understand that to mean that the Holy Spirit brings men...through regeneration...to a point of sincerely and honestly bowing before Jesus Christ as Lord. If supposed regeneration doesn't do that it is shown to be not the real thing.See More

Thomas
Sorrow on Morrow, I will not portray the Godhead as irrational. You go ahead on.

Sing F Lau
What is really irrational and nonsensical to me is this:
- that God requires EVEN those whom He DID NOT give Christ to be their Redeemer and for whom Christ did not die... that God requires such to believe in Christ as their Lord and Saviour.
I am trying to get pass such notion!

Morrow
Very slick way of avoiding the question Mark. Intellectual honesty and straight forward answers...that's what I like. Thanks my friend.

Morrow
I've got it! I understand...Now I know...wow..I am so slow. You guys subject God to YOUR rationality and anything in the Bible that seems irrational to you ...you reject. Got it! Thanks...it finally came through.

Walters
Mr. Morrow, do you believe that anyone can stop God from having mercy on a person?

Sing F Lau
Morrow, I've finally got it too! I understand...Now I know...wow..I am so slow. You subject God to YOUR own fancy, and anything in the Bible that that appears to suit your fancy must be the way God works - even though your fancy impinges upon God's character - makes God's a schizophrenic.
Got it! Thanks...it finally came through!

Morrow
Mr Walters...no.

Morrow
Well Sing...at least we understand each other... Good night.

Sing F Lau
I am off to the capital city for church planting work... won't be around for a day or two. Sleep well.

Davis
‎@ Mr. Lau. Please don't consider my question a start for devisive argument, as it's purpose is to understand beliefs that I cannot comprehend, so the answer would help in that regard. If the elect were predestined by God for eternal life with Him, and individual A is the human life-form in question as to election, and individual A is not, what reason is there to speak to either? And, for that matter, what reason do we have to believe in God, ourselves? I'll not counter your response, but to me, if God is no "respecter of persons," and each person has an eternal soul, that seems counter-intuitive to the definition of "election".

Sing F Lau
The only way an argument ought to be divisive is that it DIVIDES errors from truth... and it ought to do that every time.

I always entertain honest questions, and even rhetorical questions. That does mean my answers to those questions are necessarily correct. The honor to correct wrong answers belongs to the inquirers if they knows the answers!

So, what's your questions?

I don't understand your first question - "If the elect were predestined by God for eternal life with Him, and individual A is the human life-form in question as to election, and individual A is not, what reason is there to speak to either?"

What is meant be ".. A is..." and "... A is not"? Kindly rephrase your question. If someone else know what you are asking, please help explain what the question is. Thanks.

Sing F Lau
‎Davis @ "And, for that matter, what reason do we have to believe in God, ourselves?"

A great deal... Do you see none? Then tell us why there is no reason for you to believe God. I would be glad to hear.

Davis
Basically, I am asking why entertain scriptures that speak of teachers, preachers, who are presenting the Word of God in voice, to Person A (if that person has been predestined as the elect), and to Person B (if that person has not), when w...e don't know the status of the individuals. Or more simply, what's the use of doing anything. I believe the Bible is from God and inerrant, so I believe in predestination and election, but I cannot reconcile what I think to be some interpretations with other scripture and well, logic.

I am certain that I do not have the full understanding of the belief, rather than it being "in error."

Sing F Lau
Johnny, I think I understand your question now. That's a common question. Dr Morrow asked it many times too!

The knowledge of who are elect and who are not among our hearers is IRRELEVANT to what I have been saying.

The gospel is to be preached publicly, thus all are addressed indiscriminately. That's the nature of the public proclamation. HOWEVER, a preacher like Apostle Paul know full well that his ministry is relevant and intended for God's children only, that the gospel call is addressed at God's children among the hearers... for only such will hear and believe. To all others the gospel will be perceived a foolishness.

"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."

The gospel ministry has NO RELEVANT to the non elect... and that is still 100% true even through the preacher is 100% ignorant of who are the elect or the non-elect among his hearers. He presses on in his preaching ministry KNOWING FULL WELL that there are God's children scattered around the world that needed to be gathered into churches.

The knowledge or who are elect and who are not is IRRELEVANT to the fact that the gospel ministry is RELEVANT only to the children of God.

And the preaching of the gospel is the converting of God's children and gathering them into NT churches before their glorification at the appointed time.

So the gospel ministry is VERY IMPORTANT - but only for the purpose it was DIVINELY ordained!

Davis
Would it be correct if the hearts of the hearers, prior to the hearing (or reading of the Word), must be from God, for them to convicted of sin, or is it necessary to teach all hearts possible, to determine whether they are of God. It seems... that teaching is to find the saved, rather than seeking the lost. Or, is seeking the lost a wrong concept. Again, not to argue, as true believers are included in the kingdom, as we both can agree. To say otherwise, would seem to diminish the need for Christ in the first place.

Sing F Lau
Johnny, this is what I believe.
The gospel comes to God's children, i.e. it come to those whom God has regenerated. They are already quickened from that state of sin and death.

God makes His own children, without man's help.
God appoints the gospel ministry to bring His children to the gospel truth.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to teach those still dead in trespasses and sins. The gospel is simply foolishness to them, they are in the state of enmity and rebellion against God.

God through Christ sought the lost... lost because separated from Him by sin. The gospel ministry is appointed to make disciples of those who God has saved by His free grace.

'The lost' presupposes an owner. Something is lost because someone own it. And something is lost because it is separated from the owner who owns it.

Christ Himself came to seek the lost... His sheep that was given Him by the Father. They were lost - separated from the Father because of sin. Christ's work alone sought the lost and reconciled them to God. They are brought to God by the finished work of Jesus Christ APPLIED to each of them individually.

The gospel ministry is to FEED the sheep... to make disciples of God's children. Disciples can only be made up of the living, i.e. God's children.

God sought the lost, and the gospel ministry feed the sheep that are found by God's free grace.

Davis
Thanks for the clarification. Don't find anything I disagree with, again, based on language and interpretation. I'll expand later, if you wish, but please allow me to by "comment" before I do. In Him. Besides, got to hop in the car for worship.

Sing F Lau
May our Lord bless you with a blessed time of worship and fellowship. I have returned from our evening service! I preached "... BUT David encouraged himself in the LORD his God" 1Sam 30:6
Sunday at 10:44pm ·

Davis
Ok, back, with time to think. I suspect many will consider this comment a philosophy, because it doesn't downright agree, or disagree with your doctrine. With that caveat, I agree with your statements that "hearers..irrelevant" in that it is the same concept that mission-oriented churches, without concept of election behind them, teach: that is, they do not know the hearts of the hearers, those convicted and accept grace are the elect (in that God foreknew or had the ability to foreknow) those hearts (as David, a man after God's own heart), and the same with the hardened heart. "The gospel ministry has NO RELEVANT" to the non elect", same explanation. If one groups teaches the gospel (the "good news" of Christ being God's grace for forgiveness, i.e. never having known, of sins by Christ's physical and spiritual acceptance of the consequence of those sins), to sinners accepting the grace, or individuals elect or not elect, accepting the grace, seems all the same to me. The righteousness resulting is the same, as the elect will or have been God's Kingdom, church, Bride of Christ, Saved from Eternity with God and Christ and from the lake of fire reserved for the devil and his angels. Foreknowledge and Election are true, biblical concepts, just as "God created." I have been guilty of spreading division among Christians by attacking truth, with my pre-conceived notions that seem to conflict other beliefs. That sin has been forgiven, and now, I try to understanding other's background and how their belief-structure came about. For example, I could worship with, be in communion with (if allowed, I suppose), have fellowship with, and go to heaven with, those who approach Election and knowledge of one's electoin/salvatoin as I think you do. However, it would be sin for me to question the faithfulness of any Christian for their beliefs, unless of course, they are in direct acceptance of sinfulness (the Church of the Devil, for example). That's just me, and I would not impose that belief on anyone. Everyone takes a defense attitude when said they are said to be wrong, based on an idea or tradition which may be imperfect itself, since ages ago.

Sing F Lau
Thanks Johnny. I guess what is of utmost important is that one's belief has to be consistent, and does not injurious implications that impinge upon the moral character of God, or deny the free and gracious nature of eternal salvation, etc.

Every belief has its implications. If these implications are inconsistent with or contradictory to any part of Scriptures, then the belief probably erroneous, and ought to be rejected.

It is not a matter of imposing anything on any one. It is a matter of getting one another to see the consistencies and contradictory nature of certain beliefs. But if people are happy and content with such, then life move on.

It is not even a matter of faithfulness... That is an issue that the Master Himself must deal with. But rightly dividing the word of truth is something that a man must be held accountable.

Davis

Yes, completely agreed. I was from a religious background that emphasized the supposed error in other's beliefs to hold the view that the correct belief (whatever our human mind can come to know) must be the only belief accepted for fellows...hip and worship. This is on the basis that the beliefs are in error, sometimes in very small ways (I'll not give examples, as it may cause divisions, and we are to be of one mind - that is, of Christ). And, yes, this idea of the "true" church that is not denominational or Catholic, based wholly on scripture, stated that membership in that church, and proper "steps" to salvation, were required for heaven. Now, my group has moderated, or rather, passed the buck, to their belief in Christians being only of their group to the exclusion of others, by statements like, "God will be the judge." In God's eye, I wonder if the divisions among Christians universal, are not significant (except those you mentioned that are contrary to the God's character). The question then, is where to draw the line: must we believe the same things that are in character with God, or are we allowed diversity, for lack of another term?

Sing F Lau

Let me be absolutely clear about a few basic things so that there is no misunderstanding whatsoever.

There is nothing, absolutely nothing required of a man for his place in heaven. That is solely by the free and sovereign grace of God. God alone purposed eternal redemption for His people, Christ alone secured that redemption for His people, and the Spirit alone, WITHOUT man's assistance, applies that eternal redemption to each individual at God's appointed and accepted time. That is what is meant by salvation be free grace alone.

A man is SAVED by God's free grace SO THAT he is able to understand and believe the truth of his salvation by God's free grace. NO amount of understanding or ignorance can affect the eternal status of a man.

However, it is no license for a child of God to remain in ignorance. He is responsible to learn and to grow... and he has been given all the means necessary to that end. His WELL-BEING and USEFULNESS is intimately tied up with and proportionate to his knowledge of the truth of God as revealed in God's Scriptures.

God's children can and will differ in a wide degree of ways... and that's great shame and tragedy.

God is most honored when He is most accurately believed as He is revealed in the Scriptures, and honored and worshiped accordingly.

All Pinkish over Duty-Faith

Do you believe in a God who requires or holds responsible a man
- whom He did not give Jesus Christ to be his Saviour,
for whom Jesus did not die to save,
of whom Jesus Christ is not his Saviour
- to believe in Jesus Christ as his Saviour? Do you?

It is SIN for God's creature to reject Him as their Creator.
God and His creatures are bound by the covenant of creation.

It is SIN for Christ's redeemed to reject Him as their Redeemer.
Christ and His redeemed alone are bound by the covenant of redemption.

Morrow
I love "SOME" of the things A. W. Pink said:

Duty-Faith by Pink
"It is the bounden duty of all who hear the Gospel to savingly trust in Christ, otherwise their rejection of Him would be no sin. Many of our readers will be surprised to hear that this self-evident truth is denied by some who are, ...otherwise, sound in the Faith. They reason that it is "inconsistent" to call upon the spiritually dead to perform spiritual duties.

"A certain denomination in England have the following among their Articles of Faith: "We deny duty-faith and duty-repentance—these terms signifying that it is every man's duty to spiritually and savingly repent and believe (Gen. 6:5; 8:21; Matt. 15:19; Jer. 17:9; John 6:44, 65). We deny also that there is any capability in man by nature to any spiritual good whatever. So that we reject the doctrine that men in a state of nature should be exhorted to believe in or turn to God (John 12:29, 40; Eph. 2:8; Rom. 8:7, 8; 1 Cor. 4:7). Therefore, that for ministers in the present day to address unconverted persons [unregenerated, those still dead in trespasses and sins? sing] or indiscriminately all in a mixed congregation, calling upon them to savingly repent, believe, and receive Christ, or perform any other acts dependent upon the new creative power of the Holy Spirit, is, on the one hand, to imply creature power, and, on the other, to deny the doctrine of special redemption."

"As some of our readers have imbibed this error, we are anxious to be of help to them. We have therefore decided to follow the article by John Newton on "Ministerial Address to the Unconverted" in the March issue by first giving brief quotations from the writings of the Reformers and Puritans, to show how the framers of those [Gospel Standard] Articles of Faith departed from the path and policy followed by so many eminent saints of God who preceded them." A. W. Pink.

Here is the website for the whole article to show how the framers of those [Gospel Standard] Articles of Faith departed from the path and policy followed by so many eminent saints of God who preceded them.

Sing F Lau
Hi Morrow, you probably know what I am going to say!

I read Pink a great deal. He is one of those unique breed that links the old school baptist to the new school baptist... i.e. an old school baptist that was beginning to be influenced by the new school theology promoted by Fuller and company. It is Pink himself who has imbibed the new school theology!

Pink is often condemned by the full blown new school calvinists as hyper (that's what they call the old school men). But there is also something in Pink that attracts new school men like you! Though you like "SOME" of what he said, you will DISLIKE much of what he held dear.

Sing F Lau
The object of redemption is particular, and the gospel ministry is the heralding and proclamation of that particular redemption. It is obvious that the object of the gospel ministry is particular too.

The gospel ministry is to bring the good news of redemption to those whom God has redeemed, that they may know the truth of their eternal salvation by God's free grace, and that they may know how to live soberly, righteously and godly in their brief lives here, and the hope of eternal glory. Eph 1:13, Titus 2:11-14

The rejection or non-acceptance of what is not true concerning oneself CAN NEVER be a crime of a sin. For some to reject the gospel is a truthful thing. They can't do otherwise. Otherwise they will be believing what is NOT true of them; does God requires that they believe a lie!

Would God require or hold responsible a man - whom He did not give Jesus Christ to be his Saviour, and for whom Jesus did not die to save - to believe in Jesus Christ as his Lord and Saviour?

Do you actually believe in such a God? To believe so is to impinge upon the moral character of God. He is not unjust as to require a man to believe what is not true of him - to believe that he is redeemed when no redemption was provided for him, to believe that Jesus is his redeemer when it is not true of him. Wicked men require others to believe lies. Not the God who redeemed His people! Never!

But He most certainly requires him whom He has redeemed by His son Jesus Christ, and by His providence has the gospel ministry brought to him, to believe in Jesus Christ, i.e. to believe in the truth of their salvation by his free and sovereign grace in Christ Jesus; to believe what is true of him as a redeemed of the Lord. Unbelief among God's children shall have dire timely consequences here in this life. Only God's redeemed can be charged with the sin of unbelief; it is they who have responsibility to believe the truth that Jesus is their Lord and Saviour.

There is much temporal salvation conditioned upon the believing the gospel truth by God's children.

Wells
Bro Morrow, I hope you don't mind the long post, but I feel it is saying the same thing as the quote by Pink:
"The external ministry of the word, or the outward call by it, is not in vain; it has its usefulness, and various ends are answered... by it. All things are for the elect’s sake, and particularly the ministration of the gospel, which to them is the savour of life unto life; as it is the will of God that his chosen people, and others, should promiscuously dwell together, so he sends his gospel to them in general, and by it takes out a people for his name; calls them by his grace effectually, out of the world, and separates them from the men of it, to be a peculiar people to himself; and the rest are thereby left inexcusable; for if the light of nature leaves men so, much more the light of the gospel; the condemnation of men is aggravated by it; inasmuch, as though they are surrounded with light, they love darkness rather than light.

Moreover, by the external ministry of the word, many, though not effectually called, become more civilized and more moral in their conversation; are reformed, as to their outward manners; and through a speculative knowledge of the gospel, escape the grossest pollutions of the world: and others are brought by it to a temporary faith, to believe for awhile, to embrace the gospel notionally, to submit to the ordinances of it, make a profession of religion, by which means they become serviceable to support the interest of it. So that it comports with the wisdom of God that there should be such an outward call of many who are not internally called: nor is he to be charged for it with dissimulation and insincerity; since by it he declares what is his good, perfect, and acceptable will, and what would be grateful and well pleasing to him was it complied with and done. Should it be said, that that is called for and required which man has not power to perform; be it so, which yet may be questioned, it should be observed, that though man by sin has lost his power to comply with the will of God by an obedience to it; God has not lost his power, right, and authority to command. Wherefore, when the ministry of the word is slighted, and the gospel call rejected, it is most righteously resented by the Lord; see Proverbs 1:24-28 and such are justly punished with everlasting destruction by him (1 Peter 4:17; 2 Thess. 1:8, 9). - John Gill

[much of the optimistic notions entertained by Dr Gill is quite misguided. Just look the the rampant moral degeneration in those nations where the Christian presence is most felt, e.g. USA, there is such open hatred and enmity against righteousness. sing]

Wells
‎" it should be observed, that though man by sin has lost his power to comply with the will of God by an obedience to it; God has not lost his power, right, and authority to command. Wherefore, when the ministry of the word is slighted, and... the gospel call rejected, it is most righteously resented by the Lord; see Proverbs 1:24-28 and such are justly punished with everlasting destruction by him (1 Peter 4:17; 2 Thess. 1:8, 9)." - John Gill

[sing: God has power to command, but who did He command to believe on His Son as their Redeemer? All men indiscriminately, including those who He did not give Christ as their Redeemer, or those whom He gave Christ to be their Redeemer?]

Juliot
The entire duty-faith doctrine falls apart here: Saving faith is not a transgression of the law if it is omitted because the law is not of faith [Galatians 3]; we are declared righteous through faith apart from works of the law [Romans 3]; ...and Sin is transgression of the law [1 John 3]. Therefore, saving faith is not a duty in the law. Saving faith is the assurance of hope [Hebrews 11] and this hope is not of ourselves [Ephesians 2]. Therefore, none a cursed for not obtaining that which is a gift of grace. Souls are damned for sins of unbelief against revealed truth. [2 Thessalonians 2]

Juliot
‎"There is a faith indeed which the law requires and obliges to, namely, faith and trust in God, as the God of nature and providence... moreover the law obliges men to give credit to any revelation of the mind and will of God he has made, or should think fit to make unto them at any time; but as for special faith in Christ as a Saviour, or believing in him to the saving of the soul; this the law knows nothing of, nor does it make it known." -John Gill

"The gospel is indeed ordered to be preached to every creature to whom it is sent and comes... And that there are universal offers of grace and salvation made to all men I utterly deny; nay, I deny they are made to any; no, not to God’s elect; grace and salvation are provided for them in the everlasting covenant, procured for them by Christ, published and revealed in the gospel, and applied by the Spirit." (Sermon 7: THE DOCTRINE OF PREDESTINATION STATED, AND SET IN THE SCRIPTURE LIGHT, John Gill)

Sing F Lau
Is there one single passage of Scriptures that requires all man without distinction to believe Jesus Christ as their Saviour?

I have read over and over again that Jesus is the Saviour of His people... and the gospel is the good news of Jesus Christ saving His people, and the ministry of the word/preaching of the gospel is spoken of as the work of feeding the lambs and sheep; it is not an instrument of turning goats into sheep. The gospel ministry is to make disciples, and surely you can't make disciples out of those still dead in trespasses and sins, but out of those whom God has quickened and made alive! Converts to Christ can only be made out of the living, those whom God has quickened.

It is that simple. It is indeed a command for God's children to believe Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour BECAUSE He indeed and already IS their Lord and Saviour be God's grace.

Morrow
Why would Pink say, "It is the bounden duty of all who hear the Gospel to savingly trust in Christ, otherwise their rejection of Him would be no sin." Is it a sin to be a rejector of God's Christ? Is it a sin to be a rejector of God's light, of God Himself? I think the answer is self-evident.

The "duty" to believe on Jesus Christ is not a call to a Law work. It is a call to turn from all works righteousness and fall into the arms of a loving Savior.

Acts 17:29 "Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. 30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

I suppose you think that Paul was encouraging these people to quit doing bad things and start doing good things...like worshiping the true God...only...they can't, right? Because they might not be elect...so Paul was wrong to say that God commands all men everywhere to repent....and since he mentions that God will judge the world...oh...wait a minute...he must mean the "world of the elect" because he couldn't mean all men everywhere...uh not all individuals...by Jesus Christ...whereof he hath given assurance unto all, in that he hath raised him from the dead...uh..so God has given assurance to only the elect...but he says all...but we can't take him literally here...but we believe the Bible...but...oh my...when I try to follow your thinking Sing I just get all twisted up...please help me.

Sing F Lau
The answer is self evident. Problem is, people are confused!
It is SIN for God's creature to reject Him as their Creator.
God and His creatures are bound by the covenant of creation.

It is SIN for Christ's redeemed to reject Him as their Redeemer.
Christ and His redeemed alone are bound by the covenant of redemption.

How can a man be condemned as a rejector of God's Christ when God's Christ was not even given for him?

It is NO SIN for those who are not Christ's redeemed to reject (if this can be charged against them in the first place) Him as their redeemer. It is a GREAT SIN and MADNESS to require them to believe a BIG FAT LIE. No logic or common sense or divine justice has any ground to condemn such a man. If there is, tell us the ground.

I cannot be court marshaled if I give my middle finger to Obama the Commander-in-Chief if I'm commanded by him to go to Kenya. Why? Simply because I am not a member of the US Arm Forces. I am a soldier of Jesus the Captain of Host!

Think... think...

Sing F Lau
Morrow @ "I suppose you think that Paul was encouraging these people to quit doing bad things and start doing good things......"
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Doctor, you don't have to suppose anything. If you want to know what I believe about certain thing, just inquire. When I am dead and gone, then you need to resort to speculation!

You get all twisted up because you have chosen confusion. My view don't get me confused or twisted up when I read the passage!

Paul as a preacher is aware of the specific and particular purpose of his gospel ministry... he is also absolutely sure who will benefit from his ministry. "Therefore I endure all things for the elect’s sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory." 2Ti 2:10 .

Morrow
I am sorry I used the word "suppose" with you Sing. BTW... I am thinking, and praying and seeking the truth. I do believe it is a sin for anyone to reject Christ. John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, .....because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Oh sing...do you know the English word "because?" and then verse 19...
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light,...... What is the condemnation??? It is that light has come into the world (btw...is that the world of the elect???......) because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God................................Think Sing...Think!

Juliot

Morrow @"The "duty" to believe on Jesus Christ is not a call to a Law work. It is a call to turn from all works righteousness and fall into the arms of a loving Savior."

First, it appears that you believe the omission of saving faith is a sin. "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." [1 John 3:4] That which is a transgression of the law is of necessity a work and duty of the law. Therefore, you cannot avoid teaching that saving faith is a work of the law if you teach that the omission of saving faith is a sin. For sin is transgression of the law.

Second, it appears that you believe souls are damned/cursed for the omission of saving faith. "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them." [Galatians 3:10] Eternal damnation and the curse are administered through the law for transgressions of the law. Therefore, you cannot avoid teaching that saving faith is a work of the law if you teach that souls are damned/cursed for omitting saving faith. For the curse is ministered through the law of works.

It appears that you believe these 2 things. 1. The omission of saving faith is a sin. 2. Souls are damned for omitting saving faith.

Third, the implications of any teaching which makes saving faith as a work of the law is very destructive to the gospel and the comfort of God's sheep. This teaching leads to these false doctrines: [1.] Assurance of our justification through works of the law. This is contrary to the gospel of God's free grace. We are declared righteous in our conscience through faith apart from works of the law. "Where then is the boasting? it was excluded; by what law? of works? no, but by a law of faith: therefore do we reckon a man to be declared righteous by faith, apart from works of law." [Romans 3:27-28 YLT] "This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?... He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?" [Galatians 3:2, 5]
[2.] The child of God is inevitably taught that they are redeemed from the curse because of their faith and faithfulness to persevere therein. This is contrary to the gospel of God's free grace. We receive assurance by faith that we are redeemed from the curse because of the faithfulness of Christ alone. "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." [Galatians 3:13-14]

Fourth, Gospel invitations are for sensible sinners and not for the self-righteous. For example see: “Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.” [Isaiah 55:1] “Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.” [Matthew 11:28] “In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.” [John 7:37-38]

The self righteous are called to forsake their hatred of the truth, but they are never directed as thirsty sinners to receive Christ as their redemption and eternal salvation. "Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him. And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?" [Acts 13:10] The self-righteous are to be sent to the law till they are made sensible to their sin. "Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?" [John 7:19] "Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law; And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness, An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law. Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal? Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege? Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?" [Romans 2:17-23] "Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?" [Galatians 4:21]

Only sensible sinners are to be sent to the comfort of the gospel. "Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." [Acts 2:37-38] In Isaiah 61, we learn that the preaching of good tidings is “unto the meek”; the binding up is to “the brokenhearted”; the proclamation of liberty is to the “captives”; the opening of the prison doors is to them that are “bound”; the comfort is to “all that mourn”; the beauty for ashes and the oil of joy for mourning is unto “them that mourn in Zion”; and the garment of praise is for the “spirit of heaviness”. Here we may understand that we are first made meek, brokenhearted, captives, bound, mourners, and heavy in spirit before we are called through the good tidings of the gospel “trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord.” First, we are conceived by the Spirit. Later, we are begotten through the gospel. First, we are made sensible to our sin and our need of God’s mercy. Later, we are comforted by the glad tidings of the gospel.

Gospel invitations are particular and not general. “When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.” [Mark 2:17] The gospel call is for weary sinners that have need of the assurance of their redemption in Christ. But, it is not for the self righteous who are blind to the knowledge of their sin and the plague of their own heart.

Sing F Lau
Doctor Morrow, I knew you will pick on that passage.

Have you read this passage that came before.
"11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name."

He came unto His OWN.... BUT...
- HIS OWN received him not.
- HIS OWN received him not.
- HIS OWN received him not.

Who are those who received Him not?
- His OWN
- His OWN
- His OWN

Christ did not come and expect to be received by anyone else but His own. But of course you insist otherwise!
- HIS OWN are expected to receive Him.
- HIS OWN are expected to receive Him.
- HIS OWN are expected to receive Him.

Christ came for His own, and required His own to receive Him. The two are co-extensive. Common sense!
- His own that does not receive Him suffer timely judgment.
- His own that does not receive Him suffer timely judgment.
- His own that does not receive Him suffer timely judgment.

It is pure madness and woolliness to insist that Jesus came His own, and then expect those not of His own to believe Him as their Saviour too, and have them condemned on the ground of their unbelief!

Morrow
Sing, I want to make sure I understand you. Are you saying that an elect person can be confronted with Christ and finally and fully reject Him?

Abraham, I am sorry you had to write a book to explain your position. :)...Have you not admitted that God REQUIRES men to repent of their Idolatry and believe in God as creator and that they are required to bow before the Law of God?...Yet,... repentance is a grace given just as faith is...and NO ONE keeps God's Law. Men are depraved wholly and cannot keep God's laws and yet the Lord did not hesitate to command a wicked, depraved Israel to keep His law perfectly. You and Sing seem to think that if a person cannot "do" something...in this case it is believe in and trust Christ...that they are not responsible for their lack of performance. Again...I know that faith is a gift. I know that repentance is a gift. I also know that they are gifts that are only given to God's elect. Having said that...I must remind you that God has over and over again commanded men to do what they cannot do. For instance...Jesus commanded Peter to walk on water. He told lame men to walk. Now...my question to you is this...Does God not have the right to command men to do things that they cannot do within themselves? Are they not responsible to obey God when he speaks no matter what He tells them to do? Is their inability an excuse that makes them not responsible for their failure to obey...that is what you seem to be arguing.

Sing F Lau
Doctor, you kindly explain what Christ's word meant:
"11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name."

I am just understanding what Christ said.

Those who reject him and those who receive him belongs to the SAME category - God's children, Christ's own, those given to Him by the Father.

You insist that EVERY ELECT will hear the gospel and believe. I heard it loud and clear.

Ro 11:28 "As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes."

There were God's children among the Jews who were enemies of the gospel.

Sing F Lau
Morrow @ You and Sing seem to think that if a person cannot "do" something...in this case it is believe in and trust Christ...that they are not responsible for their lack of performance.
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Doctor, I will speak for myself.
Doctor, it is not about ability. You miss the whole point!

It is about covenant obligation. One's responsibility and duty is determined by covenant obligations. It is that basic.

The covenant of creation imposes certain obligations upon man as creatures of God. These obligations extend NO FURTHER than those embraced in the covenant of creation.

The covenant of redemption imposes certain obligations upon the elect as children of God (regenerated elect are called to believe the truth of their redemption by God's free grace). These obligation extends NO FURTHER than those embraced in the covenant of redemption.

You don't need to agree... but for tomorrow's sake, please understand what I have said... and don't go on imagining seeming things!

Juliot
Some comments to add to the discussion:
"...looking to Christ and trusting in Him are either natural acts or spiritual acts: if natural acts, the kind of teachers alluded to are right with their general invitations and universal redemption, ...which may prove effectual or ineffectual, depending on the free-will of fallen nature; but if these are spiritual acts, such men are wrong and must be deceiving their hundreds and thousands. Looking to Christ and trusting in Christ are not such easy things, not such common everyday things as they are represented to be; these are scarce, something like silver and gold, which men do not pick up as they would pick up stones on the road. These are not to be found just when you will and where you will. We cannot, in winter time, go into our gardens and gather roses, carnations, and tulips. No, friends; I say no; looking to Christ and trusting in Him are acts which the quickened or spiritually dead can no more put forth than the dry bones, without life, could rise in the valley where they were found." -Benjamin Taylor

"If duty faith were a truth, it must have some meaning with God in regard to salvation; and such a meaning too, as that if it were the universal duty of all men, wherever the gospel comes, to believe unto salvation, then salvation would be as universal as the spread of the gospel, if all men did but do their duty. And the great reason at last -why salvation is not as universal as the spread of the gospel, will be because all men did not do their duty. And so salvation finally, will not be so extensive as it might have been, if all men had but done their duty; nor so extensive as it ought to have been, if all men ought as their duty to have believed unto salvation; nor so extensive as God himself expected, if, as a duty, he expected all men where the gospel came to believe unto salvation. This brings all the counsels, purposes, covenant settlements, revealed truths, promises, and acts of the grace of God unto salvation, into immediate subjection to, and a waiting for the duty of man; and that too in such a way, as that the duty of man, and not the good pleasure of God's will, shall and must determine the final issue of the whole! I can make nothing more or less than this, of the duty of all, where the gospel comes, to believe unto salvation." - John Foreman

It is to say, "that Christ hath wrought no redemption at all"
"We are not opposed to a large redemption, but to the notion of any being lost whom Christ hath redeemed; and to that of his having done any part of his saving work for those who will be lost. In my opinion, it is as far off from the truth of God, and as awfully opposed to the truth of God, to say that Christ, who is the God-Man mediator of the better covenant, hath wrought out a universal redemption, but which will prove all in vain, perish, and come to nothing, from certain causes in man, as far as salvation fails to be universal, as it is to say, `that Christ hath wrought no redemption at all, and that he only lived a good and holy life, and died a martyr, to set us an example, that by following the same we may go to heaven by a good moral life.' Both these notions are alike opposed to the truth of God, only one holds that he hath done the greatest and most glorious of all his works, to a vast extent in vain; and the other holds that he hath done no such work at all. Both these are strongholds of Satan, but the first in the present day commands the popular piety." - John Foreman

"That which is the peculiar, the sole privilege of the sheep of Christ; that which our Lord expressly tells us no man can do except he be specially taught and drawn of the Father; that which is the particular act of a living faith, such as is given to none but the elect; that which is intended for, and addressed to the hungry, the thirsty, the weary and heavy-laden, the outcast and ready to perish, is now made to be the duty of all men, an easy and simple act which everybody is bound to do, and which anybody can do if he likes. "Come to Jesus" is spread abroad in tracts by thousands; is printed in all types, sets, and sizes; is thrown down area steps, spread about broad-cast at fairs, horseraces, and executions; and is the standing stock-in-trade of every beardless youth who, on a Sunday afternoon, can get round him a knot of idlers to preach to in the parks." - J.C. Philpot

Juliot
‎@"You and Sing seem to think that if a person cannot "do" something...in this case it is believe in and trust Christ...that they are not responsible for their lack of performance.

Again...I know that faith is a gift. I know that repentance... is a gift. I also know that they are gifts that are only given to God's elect. Having said that...I must remind you that God has over and over again commanded men to do what they cannot do. For instance...Jesus commanded Peter to walk on water. He told lame men to walk. Now...my question to you is this...Does God not have the right to command men to do things that they cannot do within themselves? Are they not responsible to obey God when he speaks no matter what He tells them to do? Is their inability an excuse that makes them not responsible for their failure to obey...that is what you seem to be arguing."

Jesus did not leaves Peter to walk on water of himself. There was power and strength from God provided for Peter to obey. Jesus did not command the lame man to walk of himself. There was power and strength form God provided for this lame man to walk. In both these cases, the Spirit did not command without providing power.

God commands souls to obey the law because it is good and right. The reason why man cannot obey the law is because of the weakness of his flesh and his carnal mind. The law makes no provisions of power or strength because man is only required to do what he ought to do in his own natural faculties. The law does not require anyone to perform New Creature acts such as trusting in the Mercy of Christ.

God does not command the self-righteous to savingly come to Christ because Eternal salvation is a Gift of Free Grace for God's Sheep. They are made sensible to their sins before they can embrace this gift. God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. [See James 4] God does not command anyone to come to Christ of themselves and the Spirit only comforts the poor sinners that He has quickened.

Morrow
Sing...please give me a passage of Scripture that speaks of the covenant of creation. Secondly, you asked my interpretation of "He came unto his own, and his own received him not." Here it is... John was not talking about Christ coming unto his own children...but to the Jewish race. He came to his own Jewish people...but even among them God graciously regenerated some and they believed on Him. The way you present this verse leaves us with the idea the Christ came to His own children and they rejected him...but because they were his...by being justified from eternity...they ended up with Him..the one they hated and rejected...forever. Again, you impose your grid on Scripture. You come to the Scriptures with a preconceived idea and try to figure a way to make them fit your idea. I have been guilty of that as I believe most of us are...but I don't want to do that and I think you should soberly consider the possibility that you are doing that even before you answer this post.

Morrow
Abraham: what makes you think I disagree with the quote below?
‎"Looking to Christ and trusting in Christ are not such easy things, not such common everyday things as they are represented to be; these are scarce, something like silver and gold, which men do not pick up as they would pick up stones on t...he road. These are not to be found just when you will and where you will. We cannot, in winter time, go into our gardens and gather roses, carnations, and tulips. No, friends; I say no; looking to Christ and trusting in Him are acts which the quickened or spiritually dead can no more put forth than the dry bones, without life, could rise in the valley where they were found." -Benjamin Taylor

The problem is you paint everyone with the same brush...you talk to me and quote things as if you are arguing against an Arminian. I am not. But I do believe that it is every man's duty to see himself lost, in need of a savior, and to turn to Christ...Can everyman do that? NO! Only those who are shown special grace can ... but that does not release wicked men who should come to Christ and who need to turn from their sin and who need to be saved from the wrath of God ...their inability does not release them from their responsibility but only adds to their guilt as Christ haters and God rejectors. Christ is a savor of life unto life for those who believe...He is a savor of death unto death to those who do not. If your line of thinking was correct He would NOT be a savor of death unto death to unbelievers because (according to your view) they are not responsible for rejecting Christ.

Sing F Lau
Morrow @ please give me a passage of Scripture that speaks of the covenant of creation. I am surprised by such a question!

A passage of Scripture that speak of the covenant of creation:
19 ¶ Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Romans 1.

What is the context of this passage?
On what basis are they are without excuse?

Sing F Lau
Morrow @ "secondly...you asked my interpretation of "He came unto his own, and his own received him not."

Of the four Gospel accounts, John is the most universal account... but you, through your "preconceived idea and try to figure a way to make them fit your idea" constricted it, want to apply it to the Jews only!

Jesus came unto His own. And His own is the Jews, said Morrow! So, Jesus came unto the Jews only!

You have just contradicted John... who speaks of God sending Jesus for the world, not just the Jews only!

Morrow
I can see that you really took my admonition to think before you answered me to heart....man you think quickly. To believe that men and women who hate God in this life and die in that state are His children is one of the worst heresies and blatant denials of the word of God I have ever seen . I am through.
[Morrow, you have just twisted John's word too... John says "his own received him not" into "his own hated God." The simple fact is that there are those Jews filled with the zeal OF God who didn't receive Jesus as the promised Messiah.  You love the fable that EVERY child of God will receive Jesus as the Messiah - a notion completely contradicted by the plain statements of Scriptures!]


Sing F Lau
Dr Morrow, you must not impute your imaginations as my belief. I have no where stated that that I "believe men and women who hate God in this life and die in that state are His children."

Haven't you heard of people who are devoted to the God of Abraham but are enemies to the gospel? Those regenerated by God experience radical change in their life. They have a fear of God in their heart, they work righteousness EVEN though they have no knowledge of Jesus Christ YET. And some, when they hear the gospel, they will not believe. That was the case with some of the Jews Apostle Paul had to deal with. They were God's children SO STUCK in the old covenant. and were unwilling to embrace the new covenant in Christ.

Dr Morrow, I have always told my children, "If you cannot represent the view of your opponent, you have forfeited the right to dispute him." Apparently you were never taught that principle.

Sing F Lau
Morrow @ "To believe that men and women who hate God in this life and die in that state are His children is one of the worst heresies and blatant denials of the word of God I have ever seen"
=======
It is indeed one of the worst heresies and blatant denials of the word of God.
BUT thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour! Not through yet!
You have falsely accused your chinese brother! Just pulling your short legs.
It was instructive interacting with you, Doc..

Morrow
Sing, You have represented your view well enough so that I don't have to. It is not a false witness to quote you. I have never heard what you are saying espoused any where else. You readily admit that "And some, when they hear the gospel..., they will not believe. That was the case with some of the Jews Apostle Paul had to deal with. They were God's children SO STUCK in the old covenant. and were unwilling to embrace the new covenant in Christ." If these who are "stuck" as you say in the old covenant are unwilling to embrace the New Covenant in Christ they are cursed forever. Paul says as much in Galatians 1. Believe what you will brother but you idea here is pure poison. I am not laughing out loud...I am sorry you believe such things...I am sorry you teach them to others.

Sing F Lau
Dr Morrow, you have just changed subject!
You accused me of believing "that men and women who hate God in this life and die in that state are His children."

And I told you, "Those regenerated by God experience radical change in their life. They have a fear of God in their heart, they work righteousness EVEN though they have no knowledge of Jesus Christ YET."

Then you equate your words, ""that men and women who hate God in this life and die in that state are His children" to my words, "They have a fear of God in their heart, they work righteousness EVEN though they have no knowledge of Jesus Christ YET."

Are they really speaking of the same things? You speak of those who hate God in this life and die in that state. I speak of God's children who fear God and works righteousness. Are we speaking of the same?

And you are saying that God's children among the Jews who are so stuck in their old covenant way of worship and would not embrace the new covenant instituted by Christ as cursed forever!

Hmmmm God cursing forever His own children. Now that is more likely pure poison, one of the worst heresies and blatant denials of the word of God I have ever seen.

You are just so upset because I point out to you that you can't even represent what I say correctly!

Sing F Lau
Those cursed in Galatians 1 are the preachers of another gospel, and not those God's children among the Jews whom Paul worked so patiently to convert them. Many of them, i.e God's children among the Jews remain enemies of the gospel... Paul said it, "As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes."Ro 11:28

There were God's children among the Jews who were enemies of the gospel. You just don't like to hear this fact because it mess up your theological grid! HAHAHA. Laugh with me!

Wells
Sing, How can a man reject the Gospel and it still be said that he loves God? Didn't Jesus say "He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me." Why did they not hear? Did Jesus not say "My sheep hear my voice."?

Sing F Lau
Adam, good questions.
Adam, what does it mean when Jesus said, "My sheep hear my voice"? How does a sheep hear the voice of Jesus Christ? What voice is that? Is it speaking of the life giving voice of Christ, or is it the voice of Adam preaching to convert God's children? Tell us, which is which?

Have you read Paul's words about those Jews that great zeal OF God but are enemies of the gospel?

10:1 ¶ Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

Some think apostle Paul is dealing with non-elect Jews! But Paul knew well enough that only God's children among the Jews are capable of being saved - they have great zeal OF - OF - OF (emphasized because many translation have PERVERTED and TWISTED this into zeal IN - IN - IN God."

Only God's children are filled with the zeal OF God. Of course pagans and heathens are filled with zeal for their gods.

Ro 11:7" What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded."

Who are those blinded? Those Jews dead in trespasses and sins? Only stupid men believe that those dead in trespasses and sins need to be blinded. They may waste moves, the all-wise God does not. Some were elected to gospel light, others were blinded.

Juliot
An example of a quickened soul that is in need of the power of the gospel and faith in Christ - "If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. F...or I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do." [Rom 7:16-19]

An example of God's children turning from the truth of the gospel - "O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?" {Gal 3:1] "Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods. But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain. Brethren, I beseech you, be as I am; for I am as ye are: ye have not injured me at all. Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first. And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus. Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me. Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?... My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you, I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you." [Gal 4:8-16, 19-20]

The sheep of Christ are manifested as they that hear His voice and follow Him. But, not all of God's sheep persevere in continually hearing His voice and following Him. As Solomon they do not go fully after the LORD. We may know someone to be a sheep as they hear the voice of Christ and follow Him. It is when Christ puts forth and goes before His own sheep that they are strengthened by the power of the gospel to forsake the voice of strangers. "And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers." [John 10:4-5]

Wells
Abraham, this is fine but it seems you are referring to those who had, at one point, believed the Gospel. What Sing is trying to say is that there are those Elect who NEVER believe the Gospel even after hearing it. This I can not see and feel it contradicts everything taught in scripture, no?

Juliot
Hey Adam, there are many of God's lost sheep who do not believe the gospel before they die. It's not that will "never" believe the gospel, but they may not believe the gospel before they die. Elect infants that have perished in infancy do not believe the gospel before they die. Elect Deaf and mentally ill do not believe the gospel before they die. Many lost sheep do not believe the gospel before they die. Like the perishing infants, the deaf, and the mentally ill... all of God's sheep shall be drawn by the Father to believe the gospel and fellowship in Christ eventually. Jesus has redeemed people among every kindred, tongue, people, and nation. Has the gospel been preached to every kindred, tongue, people, and nation? Is it impossible for Christ to have redeemed any among the billions of billions of lost souls that could never hear the gospel because of the lack of gospel missionaries?

Many of God's sheep do not believe the gospel the first time they hear it. But, Jesus seeks all His lost sheep and cares for them even when they are lost. Consider the growth of Nicodemus.

Nicodemus in unbelief to the hope of the gospel - "...Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him... Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?... If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?" [John 3:2, 10, and 12]

Nicodemus' opposition with the scoffers - "The officers answered, Never man spake like this man. Then answered them the Pharisees, Are ye also deceived? Have any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed on him? But this people who knoweth not the law are cursed. Nicodemus saith unto them, (he that came to Jesus by night, being one of them,) Doth our law judge any man, before it hear him, and know what he doeth?" [John 7:46-51]

Nicodemus caring for our Lord - "...after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took the body of Jesus. And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight. Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury." [John 19:38-40]

What are your thoughts? Blessings.

Wells
I agree that not all believe at first and that faith most certainly grows as the outward call becomes more clear. (In this discussion we are not speaking of infants, invalids and others who have no means.) The problem I have is that Sing has clearly stated that there are those elect who hear the Gospel and refuse it. Have I misunderstood him? I think not... he made his point very clear as usual.

What do you do with this massage in 2 Thess 2? Is it speaking of the elect? And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Juliot
Many of God's lost sheep reject the gospel. Every lost sheep that has refused to trust that God is sovereign in His electing love has rejected the free grace of the gospel. They may believe many truths of the gospel. But, if one rejects the truth of the cause of free grace of the gospel, they reject the gospel. Every lost sheep that has refused to believe that their assurance is by faith apart from works of the law has refused the free grace of the gospel. This was the error of the Galatians. They had the true gospel preached to them and they turned from it. 2 Th 2 is referring to being damned in the conscience and falling into a destruction in time. Temporal destruction is intended to chastise and humble God sheep. Consider Lamentations 1 and 3. Notice in 2 Thess. 2 they are sent a strong delusion that they should believe a lie. This delusion reaches their conscience and leaves them in darkness under the fear of death. Had they believed the gospel they would have been saved from this strong delusion.

Consider similar judgments. "For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body." [1 Corinthians 11:29] "But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry; Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith." [1 Timothy 5:11-13] "And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety." [1 Timothy 2:14-15] "Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses." [Matthew 18:32-35] "In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer." [Isaiah 54:8]

Also, consider Solomon in 1 Kings 11. Solomon could not have been receiving and persevering in the joy of His salvation while perusing and persevering in idolatry. Solomon had pleasure in unrighteousness and received not the love of the truth in his idolatrous ways. Therefore, a Sheep may fall in the error of the wicked in 2 Thess 2.