Here is an exchange with a brother who was a member of this church.
He moved because of work and were being taught 'strange doctrines' by his new church.
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Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:37:18 +0800
Dear Chacigo,
Thanks for writing. It is always good to hear from you.
Concerning eternal life, I appreciate your explanation.
I do understand but I can't agree.
Whatever and however we understand eternal life, I believe the testimony of Scriptures is indisputable in that the believers in Jesus Christ POSSESS eternal life as a PRESENT REALITY, not some future possession. We may not agree at the moment whether believing is the CAUSE or the EFFECT of eternal life. There are also a few passages that speak of eternal life is to be inherited - but this speaks of the glorified state of eternal life.
Below are some verses from John's Gospel that contains believing (or some other equivalence) and 'eternal/everlasting life.'
How are the two related?
Which is the cause and which is the effect?
How DID [past tense] this eternal life come about?
John 3:15 "that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:36 "He that believeth in the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."
John 5:24 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth My word and believeth on Him that sent Me hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 6:40 "And this is the will of Him that sent Me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on Him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."
John 6:47 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on Me hath everlasting life."
John 6:54 "Whoso eateth My flesh and drinketh My blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
There are ONLY two ways to understand the passages above:
1. The popular position:
- One must believe in order to have eternal life, i.e. 'whoever will believe shall have eternal life.''Whoever will believe shall have eternal life' is a conditional statement of an offer, i.e. you must do something in order to receive something, you will receive eternal life on the condition that you believe.
- This is clearly twisting what is said.
- The Scriptures say, 'have eternal life' - that is, a PRESENT REALITY. It is like making a statement, 'whosoever breathes has life.' Whoever would understand that statement as saying that breathing is a necessary condition that a dead man must meet in order to obtain life??? Any common sense person would understand that to mean, "a person breathes because he possesses life."
- But people twist it and make Scriptures to say, 'shall/will have eternal life' - a FUTURE POTENTIALITY.
2. The biblical position:
- One believes because he has eternal life, i.e. 'whoso ever believeth have eternal life.''Whosoever believeth hath everlasting life' is a declarative statement of fact, the believing ones have eternal life; you do something because of the state you are already in, you believe because of the eternal life you already possess (as a result of regeneration).
Do those verses say one must believe in order to get eternal life?
Or do they say that the believing ones already possess eternal life? What is the order?
Is it regeneration > eternal life > believes?
Or is it regeneration > believes > eternal life?
Since there are only two alternatives, life is easy. Chose a position and remain consistent.
Blessed is the man who chooses not to live with inconsistency!
your brother in Christ,
sing
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on 26/7/04 1:34 AM, Chacigo wrote:
Dear sing,
I read the emails forwarded by you. Below is my understanding of 'born again', 'eternal life' and various aspects of salvation. Let me know what you think about them.
All souls are already everlasting or eternal life in the sense that they never get annihilated. A soul which is saved by God will spend eternity with God in the new heaven and new earth. A soul which is not saved will spend eternity away from God in hell. I understand 'eternal life' in the Bible to refer to the 'future state' of a soul spending eternity with God.
An elect, before been born again, is physically alive but spiritually dead (no spiritual life) in the sense that the soul is not able to see or understand things of God (spiritual things) because they are spiritually discerned which a natural man is not able to (1 Cor 2:14). If the elect were to die in that state (which God will not allow), he will spend eternity in hell (no eternal life). As indicated in the brackets above, one who is spiritually dead is said to have no spiritual life. One who will spend eternity in hell is said to have no eternal life.
Regeneration is the first event of salvation which God works in the soul of the elect. At regeneration, a soul which is spiritually dead is 'made alive' (Eph 2:1,5) spiritually. The soul is 'born again' (John 3:3) by the Spirit of God. God 'brought forth' the soul by the word of truth according to His own will (James 1:18).
Regeneration is not the only event of salvation. In the salvation of His elect, not only does God make alive the soul, God also gives faith, God also justifies (declare the person righteous) and God also adopts the person to be his son or daughter. The point of contention is which one comes first: faith or justification. In Romans 3:21-26, even though there was contention on the meaning of 'by faith of Jesus Christ (KJV)' and 'through faith in Jesus Christ (NKJV)' in verse 22, the meaning of verse 26 is clear: God is the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Because of this and other verses, I believe that God justifies (declare righteous) the person after He gives faith and the person believes.
"Regeneration-Faith-Justification-Adoption" are parts of salvation where each item cannot stand individually in the sense you can't just have regeneration but no faith. The logical order of events can be deduced from the various Bible verses. However, there is no scriptural support that events can be far apart chronologically in the sense that a person can be regenerated today but only has faith a few years later.
Therefore, what I understand about 'born again' and 'made alive' at regeneration is that the soul is made spiritually alive with a new nature and spiritual ability to see (e.g. his sinfulness and the kingdom of God), to understand (e.g. the Word of God), to believe (e.g. salvation through Jesus Christ) and etc. I understand 'eternal life' to be a 'result' of salvation where the 'future state' or 'destiny' of the soul is changed from hell to heaven. Because of this understanding, I don't see 'made alive' to be the same as 'eternal life'.
Chacigo
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Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:27:11 +0800
Dear Chacigo,
Concerning justification, I do understand well your present understanding. I was there and wrestled to be consistent but could not. If you cannot see any inconsistencies with it, continue believing it. I don't think you should or could do otherwise.
Consider the passage below. Think outside the box for a while.
Romans 8:290-30 says, "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
Sadly, this glorious passage is so often understood as though it says this - note all the additions that involve human actions and responses.
"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called by the preaching of the word: and whom he called with the preaching of the word, them he also regenerate; and whom he regenerated, them he also brought to faith; and whom he brought to faith he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also sanctified; and them he sanctified, them he also gloried.
I feel that many have conveniently and UNCONSCIOUSLY added and demanded more things as necessary for the ETERNAL SALVATION [sic] of God's elect that God Himself DOES NOT require.
[As I demonstrated before, the justification spoken of here CANNOT be the justification by personal faith in Christ. It is the application of justification at effectual call... because this aspect of justification is absolutely true of every elect. There are elect who are never justified by faith, simply because they are incapable of exercising faith.]
A massive problem/error is introduced when we unconsciously CONFUSE or MIX divine acts in eternal salvation and human agency in bringing the temporal benefits of salvation to those who HAVE BEEN SAVED solely by the divine acts. Romans 8:29-30 declares the sole DIVINE ACTS in the eternal salvation of His elect... WITHOUT ANY MIXTURE of human acts of any sort.
- The triune God purposed eternal life for His all the elect.
- God the Son secured the right to eternal life for all the elect at the cross.
- God the Father imputed that right to eternal life to all the elect.
- The Spirit bestows/applies that actual eternal life to each elect personally at God's appointed and approved time.
- Personal faith that follows EVIDENCE/MANIFESTS all the former actions of the Triune God, NOT to SECURE them.
Can you agree with any of the above 5 statements?
IS IT CONCEIVABLE TO YOU that the Holy Spirit will regenerate and bestow eternal life to those WHOM the Father has not imputed the right to eternal life, I.E. those whom the Father HAS NOT FORENSICALLY JUSTIFIED?
IT IS MOST UNFORTUNATE, almost TRAGIC, that the word 'justify' is not rightly understood in its various and different contexts. In light of what God has done, faith in Christ justifies only in the sense that it VINDICATES and PROVES and DEMONSTRATES that the believing person is indeed an elect, redeemed, justified and regenerated by the divine grace. Faith is the sole instrument to demonstrate, prove, and to vindicate that.
- By one's faith in Jesus Christ, his faith justifies (evidentially, simple present tense) himself before the church and the world that he is indeed an elect child of God, redeemed by Christ, justified (legally and forensically) by God on Christ righteousness imputed to him, regenerated by the Holy Spirit of God... born with eternal life... which enabled him to repent and believe when the gospel is communicated to him. What the gospel message declares to him is ALREADY true of him because of the work of grace ALREADY begun in him, therefore he believes the gospel.
Tell me where I have gone wrong or been inconsistent in my above understanding. I would be most grateful.
seeking and learning with you,
sing
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Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:27:12 +0800
Dear Chacigo
Here is a little exercise for you. I would be pleased if you can give candid answers to the questions.
I am not interested in persuading anyone. I just want others to understand that there is a more consistent and harmonious manner of seeing the matter. You must feel free to disagree, and state the reasons. But I am interested that you do understand what I do presently believe.
The truthfulness of a doctrine must be carefully and peacefully pursued and embraced regardless of what opposition and disunity men of other opinions are determined to cause. My conscience is bound and submitted to the Scriptures ALONE. I want to rightly divide the Scriptures. May the Lord judge each one accordingly.
Concerning the doctrine of justification, it is best to give yourself time to study this subject. I took three years to wrestle with it (and other related issues)... and learn to be more consistent with the Scriptures. I may still be wrong... but I am always prepared to learn when shown teaching consistent with the Scriptures.
I will offer just a few brief points for your consideration. It may go a long way to help you rightly divide and understand the word. Please take all the time you need to carefully answer these questions to the satisfaction of your own mind and conscience. I believe you are capable of clear and consistent thoughts.
1. We need to determine from the Scriptures when exactly did the /legal forensic justification took place?
- Did it take place at the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ?
- Does it take place at effectual calling to life and salvation?
- Does it take place at the point of personal faith in Christ?
- Will the Holy Spirit give eternal life to one whom God has not imputed, and applied the righteousness of Christ, forensically justified?
- Is regeneration (the actual bestowal of eternal life) possible without the prior personal application of justification unto life (bestowal of the right to eternal life)?
[Remember these:
The triune God purposed eternal life for His elect.
God the Son secured the right to eternal life for all the elect.
God the Father legally imputed that right to eternal life to all the elect.
The Spirit applies that actual eternal life to each elect personally at God's appointed and approved time.]
2. We need to determine from the Scriptures how often forensic justification take place?
- Did it take place once for all, and for all the elect, at the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ?
- Does it take place repeatedly, at the point when each individual regenerated elect exercise his faith in Christ?
- If that is so, how will those elect who are incapable of exercising faith be forensically justified? Or there is no elect who is incapable of exercising faith in Christ?
Or is there another way of salvation?
3. We need to determine from the Scriptures the relationship between justification by the righteousness of Christ and the justification by the faith in Christ.
- How does the righteousness of Christ justify an elect sinner? Is this justification legal or evidential?
- How does faith in Christ justify a believing sinner? Is this justification legal or evidential?
- Does the righteousness of Christ justify the same way as your faith in Christ justify?
4. How is personal faith in Christ the alone instrument of justification? (a popular theological term, but what does it mean? See 1689.11.2)
- What is meant by the 'instrument'?
- What does an instrument do?
- Why is faith the alone means/instrument of justification?
- Why are other things not an instrument of justification?
Ask further questions... I am sure there may be many more. May the Lord give us the wisdom to search the Scriptures for biblical answers. If the traditional answers are found wanting and deficient in the light of Scriptures, may the Lord give us humility and courage to embrace what is consistent and harmonious with the Scriptures... regardless of what men may think or react. Please adopt a Berean spirit, be in the STUDY MODE - unless you also believe that you have ARRIVED!!!
As an aside, Peter Master in his commentary in the 1689.11.2 said this [I don't like to quote men to prove a point... but sometimes this can assist some who think highly of 'great' men.]
"2. Faith thus receiving and resting on Christ and His righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification;(6) yet it is not alone in the person justified [it is not the only evidence of salvation] but ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but worketh by love.(7).
[The words in italic bold red is Dr Masters' commentary. Joel Beeke says the same thing... that personal faith is evidential in nature.]
If faith is not the only evidence in the person justified, then it is indeed an evidence in the person justified. Faith is a grace found in a JUSTIFIED (simple past tense) person.
If faith is not the only evidence in the person justified, then how can faith be the means to secure justification? One might as well claim that breathing is the means to secure life!
If faith is indeed an evidence of justification (salvation), then how can faith be the necessary means to obtain legal justification? And without prior justification, is there be salvation at all.
Blessings of salvation CANNOT be at the same time the means to secure salvation! Do you appreciate that such an idea is just illogical and moronic? It is like saying that a hand is necessary to obtain the whole body, while the reality is that the hand is a part of the body!
An evidence of legal justification - and that's what faith, etc. etc. etc are - are only evidences of justification, and NOT the means to secure justification.
Faith that receives and rests on Christ and His righteousness is the alone instrument that SHOWS, DEMONSTRATES, EVIDENCES, MANIFESTS the forensic justification that has ALREADY taken place by the righteousness of Christ at the cross. An instrument is to show, to register, to demonstrate something... an instrument of justification is to show, to register, to demonstrate the presence of justification, not to secure justification.
A very serious error has been made by people along the way - seeing an instrument as a tool to secure something, instead of a tool to SHOWS, DEMONSTRATES, EVIDENCES, MANIFESTS to presence of something! It is like people thinking a test-pen as an electricity-securing tool, instead of its original and real and factual design of showing, demonstrating, evidencing and manifesting the PRESENCE of electricity.
I can't make anything simpler. If you still don't understand, I am probably a very poor communicator that do not deserve to be heard.
seeking and learning with you.
sing
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Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 18:00:25 +0800
Dear Chacigo
Let me make some direct comments upon some specific points in your post.
Please take all your time to understand what has been written. I am not interested in your agreement. I leave that to the Holy Spirit. I am interested in your understanding of what I believe.
I will write no more, else I become a pest to you. I have ceased discussing with anyone locally.
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CC: "All souls are already everlasting or eternal in the sense that they never get annihilated. A soul which is saved by God will spend eternity with God in the new heaven and new earth. A soul which is not saved will spend eternity away from God in hell. I understand 'eternal life' in the Bible to refer to the 'future state' of a soul spending eternity with God."
## The phrases eternal life/everlasting life occur 45 times in the whole of the Bible (NKJ) - once in the OT (Dan 12:2) and the rest in the NT. In every occurrence, it is strictly and directly related to the redeemed people of God... mostly in declarative statements that they are presently in the possession of eternal, and a few in the context of final glorification (eg. Dan 12:2).
Don't confuse immortality of the soul by divine creation with the eternity of life birthed by the divine regeneration through eternal Holy Spirit. It would be a very SERIOUS ERROR to do so.
In light of this, you have to decide whether your understanding is biblical or not.
CC: "
## Adam had NO eternal life... he had an immortal soul. It was not as if Adam had eternal life, and lost that eternal life in the fall. Adam was spiritually alive - he had fellowship with God - before the fall but became spiritually dead after the fall; spiritually dead in the sense that he is actively bent towards sins leading to eternal condemnation, spiritually dead in the sense that it is utterly incapable of positive movement towards God. The whole person is totally depraved, actively inclined towards sins, and in enmity and rebellion against God.
Eternal life is the product of the supernatural work of regeneration in the redeemed elect by the eternal Spirit of God. It is this eternal life birthed in the redeemed elect that ANIMATES all the God-ward spiritual activities.
John 17:3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."
Here is a very grand, yet simple and direct statement from the very mouth of Jesus Christ.
Is eternal life the PREREQUISITE / CAUSE to know the one true living God and Jesus Christ whom He has sent, OR is eternal life a PRODUCT / EFFECT of knowing the one true living God and Jesus Christ whom He has sent?
Does anyone NOT in possession of eternal life ever able to know the one true living God and Jesus Christ whom He has sent? Please answer these questions.
CC: "
## It is "unless one is born again..." and not "unless one's soul is born again" (John 3:3).
It is "And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins" and not, " And your souls He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins," It is "we were dead' and not just "our soul were dead." It is "made us alive" and not just "made our soul alive." (Eph 2:1,5)
The new birth is not just the making alive of the spiritually dead soul. The new birth is the making alive of the whole person BY the bestowal of eternal life to the person. The person is made alive by the bestowal of eternal life... the eternal life bestowed ANIMATES the person, the new person. Eternal life enables the new person to put to death the old man.
Please make a clear distinction the 'bringing forth' as in regeneration, and 'bringing forth' as in conversion. [Which do you think James 1:18 is speaking of - is it regeneration by the Life-giving Word (Christ) and the Holy Spirit, or is it conversion through the preaching of the word?]
This is because the agent for the 'bringing forth' in regeneration and the agent for the 'bringing forth' in conversion ARE WORLDS APART. I fear that when one has not learned to make a clear distinction here, he IS NOT rightly dividing the word of God. Don't be misled by the SOUND of the words. Endeavour to secure the sense of the word.
CC: "
## The contention is not limited to the order of faith and justification. It is the whole system of truth involving so many facets that need to be harmonized and held consistently.
Regeneration may not be the only event of salvation, but with regeneration and the bestowal of eternal life (forget about the disagreement whether eternal life is procured through believing, or eternal life is manifested in believing... ) one fact CANNOT be disputed, whoever believe HAVE eternal life, eternal salvation has been applied... and the person is ready and fit for eternal glory. See my previous note on Rom 8:29-30. As far as God's acts to secure the eternal salvation of His elect are concerned, anyone He has regenerated, He shall also glorified... no ifs and no buts.
Everything between divine regeneration unto eternal life and final glorification is NOT necessary for the ETERNAL salvation of an elect. Everything in between regeneration unto eternal life and final glorification secured through the ministry of the word is to nourish the elect with the blessings God has ordained for His people in this life as they journey through this world to their eternal inheritance and glory.
There is an eternal aspect of our salvation which is wholly and solely by the divine acts of God alone, as in Romans 8:29-30. There is a temporal aspect of our salvation which is wholly and solely by the responses of God's regenerate elect to the various means of grace, the chief of which is the ministry of the word.
However, the gospel blessings and benefits that a regenerated elect may enjoy in this brief life is dependent upon many human factors. Quantitatively and qualitatively, some enjoy none of these benefits... others who do enjoy, enjoy to a greatly varying measure, depending on such diverse factors as the purity of the gospel communicated to them, the availability of the various means of grace, the quality of the ministry of the word, the quality of pastoral oversight and care, etc, etc.
Only those who have been eternally saved - regenerated with eternal life and ready for glory - IS CAPABLE OF BEING SAVED in the temporal sense... of experiencing and enjoying the blessings of salvation here and now... before entering into glory.
CC: "Regeneration-Faith-Justification-Adoption" are parts of salvation where each item cannot stand individually in the sense you can't just have regeneration but no faith. The logical order of events can be deduced from the various Bible verses. However, there is no scriptural support that events can be far apart chronologically in the sense that a person can be regenerated today but only has faith a few years later."
## Look carefully at Romans 8:29-30 again, please. Just don't read into it, please.
May I suggest that you read the short article on 'The Five Phases of Salvation.' This article will widen your understanding of the many phases of salvation. This is something very important for us to rightly divide the word.
Take adoption for example. The Scriptures speaks of these phases:
- God the Father predestinated some to be sons... Eph 1:5. Is this the adoption you are speaking about?
- God the Christ paid the price to redeem the elect to be sons... Gal 4:4-5, Heb 2:14-17. Is this the adoption you are speaking about?
- God the Spirit regenerates the redeemed elect to be sons... John 1:12-13, 3:3-6. Is this the adoption you are speaking about?
- The gospel informs and comforts SUCH elect(adopted in the senses above) that God has predestined them to adoption, Christ has paid the price for their adoption, and the Spirit has applied the adoption by birthing in them eternal life and brought them into the family of God... and brought him to a CONSCIOUS and EXPERIMENTAL knowledge of his adoption by God into His household. Is this the adoption you are speaking about? (Rom 8:14-16)
-The Scriptures tell us that our full and complete adoption will take place at glorification... Rom 8:23, Lk 20:35-36. Is this the adoption you are talking about?
Brother Chacigo, may I suggest that there are more riches about our multifaceted salvation yet to be discovered... beyond the deficient view that we were so used to and familiar with. Similarly, which phase of justification are you talking about - are you talking about the decretal phase, the legal forensic phase, the vital personal phase, the evidential experiential phase or the final phase? The evidential phase of justification by personal faith in Christ IN ENTIRELY different from the legal/forensic phase of justification by the righteousness of Jesus Christ.
Brother Chacigo, you need to move on... don't stay where you are. There is more riches to be mined from the Scriptures. I am quite honest to tell you that I have taught you INADEQUATELY when you were with me. I wouldn't say I taught you error - I did teach you justification by faith alone... BUT I have never elaborated... because that was the extent of my understanding then. I am happy where I am now... not because I have discovered something new... but because it is more comprehensive and more consistent. It was an old doctrine lost along the way. The old Particular Baptists did believe...
Take all the time to understand what I have written. Feel free to ask anything you do not understand.
seeking and learning with you,
sing
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