The Question: Is this the norm…?
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A dear Brother wrote and asked:
Cornelius, the Ethiopian eunuch, and Lydia are very good examples recorded for our soul. Regenerate and living a godly life prior to the response to the Gospel call.
Questions:
a. Is it the norm for thousands of years over the period of human history for regenerated people not to identify with the church or simply come out in the open to declare the glory of God? Understandable in the remote areas where those early times where the gospel could not be reached. However with the advances of communications, could not the gospel be reached [brought] to all them [without exception]?
b. If, in the present era, regenerated people with the fore knowledge of God, do these people have no opportunity to join a church? Then the next question is "how would the people of God praise HIM day and night?" The gathered church maybe lacking in numbers to corporate prayers and worship. Then if the regenerated people are not called out to faith between birth and death, then how would the ordinance of baptism be meaningful to the godly and ungodly people as a reminder to the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ?
By now you may have realized we asked amiss and stupid questions. What bothers me especially is "why should God allow His regenerated elect with full mental faculty to miss the opportunity for the fuller well being of one's life while on earth. Declaring faith in the open would be like Adam & Eve in fellowship before their fall. Fellowship in the church is a type for the thing to come in heaven. Pastor, I am asking the ridiculous and putting forth questions with obvious answers. As you mentioned often, what is not said carries the true intentions.
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An Answer: ['an' answer, not 'the' answer]
Dear Brother,
It is good to hear from you. Five or six years ago, I was also asking the same questions like you do... only I asked a whole lot more... So, keep asking, and you will help me to keeping thinking and learning. Here is one I just asked two days ago...
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Dear Brethren,
Please help me with a question.
The Scriptures declares, "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of EVERY kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation..."(Revelation of John 5:9).
Does this statement help to answer the questions:
- Was there God's elect that perished in the great flood?'
- Were there 'kindred, and people, and nation' before the confusion of tongue at Babel?
- The period between Adam and the great flood was 1656 years (Antsey) - did 'kindred, and people, and nation' develop within this period?
Any thought would be most welcome.
sing
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Now concerning your questions:
Please note that the question, 'is this the norm' necessarily implies the corollary idea of 'that is an exception.' I have forwarded you a post on this.
Below I will answer within your post. A bit long... but please read patiently. May our Lord bless you richly! Anything you don't understand, feel free to ask. Anything you don't agree, show me where I am wrong. I am teachable, and am still learning (said with all seriousness, without false piety!)
You wrote:
"Cornelius, the Ethiopian eunuch, Lydia are very good example recorded for our soul. Regenerate and living a godly life prior to the response on the Gospel call. Questions:"
Yes, God regenerates His elect WITHOUT the aid or cooperation of man. This is a given. I fathered ALL my children without their aid or that of the midwives!!! But many people are involved in giving a hand for their nurturing and wellbeing and usefulness.
Please note that we must not commit the FATAL ERROR here, i.e. to construe from this fact that IF regeneration and living a god fearing life prior to the response on the gospel call is possible, THEN the gospel ministry is not necessary to God's children. Please do remember that though Cornelius - prior to hearing the gospel - POSSESSES eternal life and DOES fear God and work righteousness (if by this you mean 'he is living a godly life' - then, yes, he most certainly was), yet there is still so much deficiency in his discipleship as a child of God. He is ignorant of the truth of his salvation by God's free grace, His Father, His Saviour; he is still plagued with much superstition, he is still burdened with many cares and worries of life, etc, etc. He is indeed a child of God, but ONLY a babe... the gospel ministry is most essential for the nurture and growth of the babe. "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect [complete, mature], throughly furnished unto all good works." (II Timothy 3:16- 17).
Every man of God began his spiritual life as a babe, born by the sovereign grace of God. Without the ministry of the gospel, a child of God remains a spiritual babe through much of his life on earth... and died a spiritual babe. Whether a child of God died a spiritual babe or a spiritual giant... they are both EQUALLY justified, regenerated and adopted and indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God, and shall be equally glorified - all based upon the works and merits of Christ ALONE. This is the eternal aspect of salvation. There is the temporal or timely aspect here and now in this life. That's where the gospel ministry plays a most vital role.
This work of making disciples of God's children - nurturing and instructing them all that Christ has commanded - have been committed to the church. Making disciples of God's children through the gospel ministry is a 1000 worlds different from making God's children through the gospel ministry. The standard reformed folks have confused and confounded the two... thus ending up with all the inconsistency and contradiction, and repudiating salvation by free grace alone by direct implication.
You wrote:
a. Is it the norm for thousands of years over the period of human history for regenerated people not to identify with the church or simply come out in the open to declare the glory of God. Understandable in the remote areas where those early times where the gospel could not be reached. However with the advances of communications, the gospel could not be reached to them.
I am trying hard to understand your question - if you are asking a question at all. May be you are making a statement. Do you intend to write, 'IT IS the norm...' (a statement) or 'IS IT the norm...'? I am not sure... sorry, I can't read your mind.
However, please let me say this. It is obvious that if the gospel had not been brought to them... they would be no church there... and without the NT church there, there would be no identifying with the church. Wherever they are, because they are regenerated children of God, their lives would be comparatively quite different from those around them, like that of Cornelius, Lydia and the Ethiopian eunuch in the NT... you can easily quote many of them in the OT.
During the OT, BEFORE the establishment of the distinct group of people who eventually became the covenant nation of Israel, all God's children are scattered in EVERY kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation. They were WITHOUT any external INSTITUTION to identify themselves with. During the OT, AFTER the calling of Abraham, a specific group of God's people began to become externally identifiable. These became a covenant nation of God's people... there was then a external institution with which God's children can identify themselves as God's children. Throughout the OT, we read of some Gentiles (God's regenerated children) who came to know, and identified themselves with this external institution (Israel). But still, by and large, God's children in most part of the world then knew nothing about this external institution of God's people.
Please also remember that the people belonging to the special genealogical line that is carefully traced from Adam to Christ were NOT the only elect people of God. So often people make the serious mistake to think that ONLY those people associated with that Christological genealogical line are the ONLY children of God, and there were none outside of it. There were, and are God's elect found in EVERY kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.
Let me be realistic, and say that the advancement in communication does not help much in the matter for several very basic reasons. It has helped the situation SLIGHTLY only. Can you think of some?
You wrote:
b. If in the present era, regenerated people with the fore knowledge of God, do these people have no opportunity to join a church? Then the next question is "how would the people of God praise HIM day and night?" The gathered church maybe lacking in numbers to corporate prayers and worship. Then if the regenerated people are not called out to faith between birth and death, then how would the ordinance of baptism be meaningful to the godly and ungodly people as a reminder to the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ?
Good questions... I had asked them myself... several years ago. All divine truth is consistent and harmonious.
By 'in this present era,' I supposed you mean the gospel age in the general sense, and the 21st century in particular, where advanced communication tools are available. I have suggested that the advancement in communication does not ensure, and remotely means that in this present era every regenerated elect will be reached with the gospel. I leave it to you to think why.
Do you know that Cornelius, before the gospel message was brought to him, prayed to God ALWAYS? "There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band, a devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God always." Acts 10:1-2. One may object, 'O he learned to do so from the Jews.' Fair enough. Who taught Abraham to do the same? And who taught Enoch, and Noah, and Mechizedek? There were certainly no Jews then! And who teach those in every nation mentioned by apostle Peter in Acts 10:34-35, "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, ‘Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."
Remember, Apostle Peter, under divine inspiration was MAKING A MOMENTOUS STATEMENT OF FACT. He did not say, in every nation whosoever will fear God and will work righteousness, will be accepted with God, i.e. apostle Peter did NOT make a STATEMENT OF CONDITIONAL OFFER.
These people praise God day and night - PRIOR to and therefore WITHOUT the benefits of the gospel ministry - by their reverent fear of God and do works of righteousness. That's the way the most enlighten saints praise God day and night TOO. The great difference lies in the QUALITY of their respective praises. A child may know God as his Father (see Romans 8:14-15), and yet know next to nothing about him, and praise him and love him in a vague uninformed manner; and another child of the same Father, because of the benefits of a FAITHFUL and BIBLICAL gospel ministry (so much around is not) may know so much more about his Father, and much more of God’s work of saving him through His Son Jesus... and praise Him and love Him in a much informed manner. See the point?
You wrote:
Then if the regenerated people are not called out to faith between birth and daeth, then how would the ordinance of baptism be meaningful to the godly and ungodly people as a reminder to the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ?
If the regenerated people [i.e. already given eternal salvation by God's free grace] are not called out by the ministry of the gospel to faith, then they are deprived of all the blessings that the gospel ministry is ORDAINED by God to bring them - including the instruction concerning how, when and why of their eternal salvation in Jesus Christ, and the ordinance of baptism as a visible and vivid picture of those things, and the fellowship of the saints, etc.
That is why the ministry of the gospel is VERY IMPORTANT... but VERY IMPORTANT ONLY for the purpose God has ordained it. It is VERY IMPORTANT, not to bring eternal salvation to God's elect, but it is very important because it is the ordained means to bring temporal salvation to God’s children in this life here and now.
A child of God that is deprived of the gospel ministry and all the temporal blessings that come with it is like a child that is deprived of the blessings of a loving home and all that comes with it. It would be very grievous and sad. But whatever deprivation a child of God might suffer, they are not one iota less than a child of God. This DOES NOT diminish the urgency of seeking out God's children with the gospel ministry.
The 'standard reformed' folks insist that the gospel ministry is VERY IMPORTANT because it is the means appointed by God to give eternal salvation to the elect. This is erroneous.
God's children, in every generation, in every place, whether they have the benefits of the ordinance of baptism that comes along with the gospel ministry, unmistakably BEAR WITNESS to the truth that they have been raised to newness of life... their reverent fear of God and their works of righteousness – genuine love for the neighbors. That separate them from all those around them who are still dead in trespasses and sin. The gospel ministry alone will give them light and understanding of what have happened by God glorious and sovereign grace in granting them eternal salvation in Christ Jesus.
Let me illustrate the truth. There was a time in high school when we begin to learn about the reproductive system in our science classes - about the wriggly sperms and the eggs, and fertilization, the x and y chromosomes, the DNA, gestation and growth of the new life, etc. Before that you and I know next to nothing about our origin, where we come from, etc. Then we were instructed those wonderful truth! Imagine our older siblings who never go to school... and remained ignorant of those wonderful and mysterious truths about their origin, about the true identify of their parents, etc. Their ignorance does not make them any less children or any less human. See the point? Imagine one of the sibling died early... deprived of the benefits of medical advances, and knew very little of his parents... these are all very great losses... but all these do not make him any less child or any less human then the other siblings.
OK, this lead naturally to the next BIG question... and I like this one. I have asked it myself too. So, men made wise by God think alike, and fools never differ!
You wrote:
By now you may have realised we asked amiss and stupid questions. What bother me especially "why should God allowed His regenerated elect with full mental faculty to miss the opportunity for the fuller well being of one's life while on earth. Declaring faith in the open would be like Adam & Eve in fellowship before their fall. Fellowship in the church is a type for the thing to come in heaven. Pastor, I am asking the ridiculous and putting forth questions with obvious answers. As you mentioned often, what is not said carries the true intentions.
I don't see nor realize any asking amiss or stew-pig or roast-pork questions. I think they are all legitimate, but whether they are ridiculous and have obvious answers, I can't say. I would be grateful if you can explain. ;-))
I am glad that you are especially bothered by this particular issue! You should be bothered by anything that is not consistent with the reveal Word of God, and seek for consistency by seeking to rightly divide the word of truth - "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." (II Timothy 2:15)
I want to suggest that behind your good question "why should God allowed His regenerated elect with full mental faculty to miss the opportunity for the fuller well being of one's life while on earth" there lurks a presupposition or preconceived notion, even though such notion is un-biblical, and contrary to all observable facts in life.
I surmise that the preconceived notion is this: It is God's will that ALL His sentient children (i.e. the regenerated elect) with working mental faculty will hear the gospel preached and enjoy the opportunity for the fuller well being of one's life while on earth... i.e. and be gathered into the NT church with all the blessings that comes with it.
How wonderful if this had been the case... I would to God that this is the case indeed. But it is most certainly not - not only contrary to Scriptures, but also contrary to observable facts.
This notion leads to some strange ideas:
- First, it assumes that there is no elect of God in all those places and all those people groups (i.e. ethnic nations) where the gospel has never reached. This is a presumptuous notion at best.
- Second, it assumes that none of the regenerate (mentally capable) elect, in any place and in any generation is MISSED by the ministry of the gospel; i.e. the gospel ministry has reached every regenerate (i.e. mentally capable: presupposed because the gospel ministry is intended for such ONLY) in every place in every generation. This is worse than presumptuous to claim so.
- Third, this notion is a twin of the related error of gospel regeneration. Such folks believe, 'no gospel preaching, no regeneration or eternal life or no eternal salvation,' period. This is plain ignorance and confusion. Scriptures plainly declares, 'faith comes by hearing,' and not life comes by hearing. It is no gospel preaching, no faith and no conversion.
The triune God has most assuredly declared that He will sovereignly and freely do certain things for ALL His elect people... Read this very popular but most misunderstood passage again, "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." Romans 8:29-30. (read the related article here: http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2012/07/gospel-of-free-grace.html
This passage speaks of ALL the elect... ALL them that are called according to God's eternal purpose... and what God will sovereignly and freely do for these SAME people. So please NOTE very carefully what is specifically stated that God will do for EVERY SINGLE ONE and ALL of His elect. Please note most carefully also what is NOT stated at all.
The things that God will sovereignly and freely do for ALL those that are called according to His eternal purpose are THESE: foreknowledge, predestination, call, justification, and glorification. Here is a most wonderful and perfect and complete 5-links chain.
Please note carefully that these five are SO-LINKED in such manner that they do not allow anything to come in between them. What God has joined together let not man put asunder by adding useless and odious links of their own invention to the perfect and complete chain. Man's activity in any form or degree is ENTIRELY and ABSOLUTELY excluded.
Foreknowledge and predestination took place before the foundation of the world. The call takes place in time... at God's own appointed and accepted time... "Those whom God hath predestined unto life, He is pleased in His appointed and accepted time, effectually to call, by His Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ..." 1689.10.1. Justification mentioned here also takes place in time, in conjunction with the effectual call to grace and salvation. "Those whom God effectually calleth, He also freely justifieth..." 1689.11.1
Note most carefully that the effectual call to grace and salvation, have to be effectual call and NOT the gospel call, because it is obvious beyond a shadow of doubt that there are elect that are not called by the gospel, but ABSOLUTE everyone and all elect are effectually called to grace and salvation. Confused 'standard reformed' folks insist that this is gospel call. These obtuse and stubborn folks refuse to accept plain and obvious truth! To make the call here as gospel call destroys the chain... and excludes many elect from glorification.
Note most carefully too that the justification spoken about is a justification that must be true to EVERY SINGLE ONE and ALL of the elect of God. And this justification simply and obviously CANNOT be justification by faith through the hearing of the gospel. This is the justification by God's free grace that is true of EVERY SINGLE ONE and ALL of the elect of God. This happens when He declares an elect under condemnation of death to be righteous by forgiving all his sins and imputing to him the righteousness of Christ. Confused 'standard reformed' folks insist that this is justification by faith. These obtuse and stubborn folks refused to accept plain and obvious truth! To make the justification here as evidential and experiential justification, they destroy the chain... and shall exclude those elect that unable to exercise faith from glorification.
From this passage, you see the plain declaration what God has willed, decreed and ordained what He shall perform for EVERY SINGLE ONE and ALL of His elect. We must be careful not to break that unbreakable chain and add more useless and pathetic links of our own imagination... like the links of the gospel call, faith, repentance, progressive sanctification, etc... and force the Scriptures to say what it does not say. Let God be true and every man a liar!!!
God has most certainly commanded the NT churches to labour to seek the lost sheep and gather them into the churches. And we are to do that faithfully, and gather His children into the visible church. God ALSO cares for the wellbeing and comfort of His children while they travel through this world to their eternal home. That work is delegated to the church. At the best of time, most often the church fails very miserably. But sovereign grace alone ensures that all God's elect shall be glorified. This is very humbling and comforting.
Many deluded and misguided men think God needs them to house His elect in heaven!!! What arrogance and presumption. "Him that glories, let him glories in the Lord alone" - don't betray any indication that your eternal salvation is somehow remotely dependent upon something man does.
It would be wonderful if God had willed that each and every of His elect would enjoy the gospel blessings to the degree that apostle Paul had enjoyed... but God hasn't, otherwise His holy will would surely come to past.
I have rambled on, but hope it is not all wind,
sing
Read this related article - Norm or Exception
Is this the exception? Ha ha ha!
