 |
| Are you really that confused? |
Initially posted here:
https://www.facebook.com/sing.f.lau/posts/pfbid0MJwJASUg24bbrsNCrN8GFZrXHwHA1tuogPNc6yCyXhqz59QfztBoxNavYZ9Zb7tHlHow subtle and
devilish is the perversion:
Faith is an
instrument to MANIFEST the justification that has already taken place
HAS BEEN
TWISTED into
Faith is the
instrument to SECURE one's justification from God by His free grace - as if
that is still justification by free grace!
Let me put it in a plainer manner
Breath is an instrument to MANIFEST life that one already possesses
is twisted and perverted into
Breath is an instrument to SECURE the life that a dead man does not possess.
Faith manifests what
you already have by God's free grace.
It is "the just
(justified ones, by the free grace of God) that shall live by faith" -
repeats the Holy Scriptures.
Faith DOES NOT
SECURE your justification before God.
How can an
unjustified man have faith to begin with? An unjustified man is still a man in
his native state of condemnation and death! How could such a man exercise faith
in order to secure his justification before God?
Might as well believe
that a dead man may breathe in order to obtain life!
The old school
Baptists declared:
"The reason why
any are justified IS NOT because they have faith; but the reason why they have
faith IS because they are justified."
But the new school Calvinists anathematise this statement of truth by the old school Baptists.
They cannot
distinguish forensic justification by free grace, and experiential
justification by their faith! And they are so cocksure of themselves!
=========
Comments (some comments have been deleted by their authors)
Trevor Christian
Johnson
The instrumentality
of the Word of God:
The truth is that
God ordains that the Elect ordinarily should be saved through faith, upon the
hearing of the Gospel. Infants and the mentally infirm constitute extraordinary
cases, yet ordinarily the witness of Scripture states the following:
• “Ye are already
clean because of [or through] the word I have spoken to you.” (John 15:3).
• “Of His own will
he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of
first-fruits of His creatures.”(James 1:18).
• "...knowing,
beloved brethren, your election by God. For our gospel did not come to you in
word only, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and in much
assurance." (1 Thess 1:4, 5).
• “Many who deny the
instrumentality of the Word are often admirers of John Gill, and yet not even
Gill supports their claims of “immediate regeneration.” Gill affirms, on page
534 of his Body of Divinity, the instrumentality of the Word:
"Though after
all it seems plain, that the ministry of the word is the vehicle in which the
Spirit of God conveys himself and his grace into the hearts of men; which is
done when the word comes not in word only, but in power, and in the Holy Ghost;
and works effectually, and is the power of God unto salvation; then faith comes
by hearing, and ministers are instruments by whom, at least, men are encouraged
to believe: 'received ye the Spirit', says the apostle, 'by the works of the
law, or by the hearing of faith': Ga 3:2 that is, by the preaching of the law,
or by the preaching of the gospel? by the latter, no doubt."
The instrumentality
of Faith
Again, Chapter 14,
“Of Saving Faith”, in both the Westminster and the 1689 Confessions of Faith,
summarizes well the role of faith as an instrument through which God saves the
Elect:"The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the
saving of their souls, is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts, and
is ordinarily wrought by the ministry of the Word..."
The Belgic
Confession (Article 2) explains further:
“Therefore we justly
say with Paul, that we are justified by faith alone, or by faith without works.
However, to speak more clearly, we do not mean that faith itself justifies us,
for it is only an instrument with which we embrace Christ our Righteousness.
But Jesus Christ, imputing to us all His merits, and so many holy works which
He hath done for us and in our stead, is our Righteousness. And faith is an
instrument that keeps us in communion with Him in all His benefits…”
Below is an
explanation concerning the instrumentality of faith that I sent to one man who
vigorously denied this truth, calling it a “works-righteousness.” Examine my
explanation yourself to see if it accords with Scripture:
“The Elect are
justified by or through faith (Rom. 1:17; 3:25, 28, 30; 5:1; Eph. 2:8; Gal.
2:16; 3:11, 24; Phil 3:9).
Faith is not the
reason or ultimate grounds for the Elect’s justification. We are not saved
because of our faith or on the grounds of our faith, as if we can produce a
certain sufficient measure of this substance from within ourselves which God
would then honor and allow us into heaven. This would be to make faith into a
meritorious act and our work of producing enough faith of sufficient quality to
be a work of righteousness able to commend us before God. This would be yet
another form of works-righteousness. This may be part of your zeal in denying
“duty-faith” – your legitimate desire to guard against any form of
“works-righteousness.”
However, though we
are not saved because of our faith, faith is the instrument through which God’s
Elect are united to Christ. The expressions are thus—dia pisteos, ek pisteos,
and pistei, which can all be translated as “by means of” or “through” faith.
Faith is the
instrument which lays hold of Jesus. God, through free grace, enables a person
to believe. It is a gift of grace, yet God does not believe for the man; the
man must believe. Therefore, being an instrument and channel, faith does not
come at some later time after a person is united to Christ, but a person is
united to Christ by faith itself. Therefore, though it is proper to speak of a
logical priority of regeneration over faith/conversion, God monergistically
taking initiative to move the man, let us not mistake a logical priority with a
chronological one; there is no perceptible chronological gap in time, nor are there
any who are regenerate but who are yet to exercise saving faith. Everywhere we
see faith we will see the new birth, and where we see the new birth we will see
faith.
Again, Ek pisteos
(“by”, “from”, or “out of” faith) describes faith as that which logically
precedes a person’s justification. Faith is the gift of God which is given to
us so that we may cling to Christ, though it is never the efficient or ultimate
cause of justification, the dative use of the noun pistis being used in an
instrumental sense (see also Rom. 3:28).”
Likewise, not only
faith but repentance as well, is an essential grace-gift that the Elect must
possess for salvation. Though faith and repentance are not produced within
ourselves by our own merits, we still must possess these gifts of grace,
wrought by the work of Christ for His Elect on the Cross, for us to see heaven.
The Westminster Confession of Faith guards us from error in regard to the
necessity of repentance:
"Although
repentance be not to be rested in as any satisfaction for sin, or any cause of
the pardon thereof, which is the act of God's free grace in Christ; yet is it
of such necessity to all sinners, that none may expect pardon without it.” (The
Westminster Confession of Faith, 15:1-3).
Thus, we see that an
“instrument” is not the effective cause of a thing, and that God unites us to
Christ by the instrumentality of faith upon the hearing of the Word. To believe
these things is not “works-righteousness” but are truths defended both
biblically and historically.
Kate Richardson
Hebrews 10:
14 For by
one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15 Whereof the Holy
Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the
covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws
into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins
and iniquities will I remember no more.
(If the preacher
does any good, God has already been there first and done the work.)
Trevor Christian Johnson
Edmund, that sure is
a lot of adjectives to use. Justification by faith is a central tenet of the
Scriptures and one need not be a theolog to read and understand my plain
scriptural proofs above that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of
God.
[Edmund has deleted all his comments}
Trevor Christian Johnson
Edmund, I agree with
you that faith is not a cause of salvation. A thing can be an instrument
without being a cause, hence ek pisteos in the greek (by, through) faith.
Sing F Lau
Trevor, I suggest
that new school calvinists like you are confused on two basic points in the
issue under consideration.
First, you confuse
forensic justification by the free grace of God, with the experiential
justification by believing. When you get this right, you will save yourself
from lots of confusion and inconsistencies.
Every elect of God
will experience forensic justification by God's free grace... no if and no but.
Not every child of
God (an elect that is already justified, regenerated and adopted in his
effectual calling from the state of sin and death to that of grace and
salvation) will not experience experiential justification. Experiential
justification is CONDITIONED upon faith... and hearing and believing is
CONDITIONED upon the capability and opportunity to hear THE gospel.
That's the first
matter. And it is intimately related to the next.
Second, you confuse
the salvation (which is eternal in nature) that is by the free grace of God
through the eternal redemption that is in Christ Jesus) with the salvation
(which is temporal in nature, affecting the well-being of God's children) that
is conditioned upon the responses of God's children to the ministry of the
gospel.
No one is denying
that the ministry of the word is ordained to save God's children... to ensure
their WELL-BEING in this present life while they wait for their eternal glory,
of which they have been perfectly and completely made fit, WITHOUT THE ministry
of the word.
If you can get this
two related matters, you will save yourself from lots of inconsistencies and
contradictions... that are INHERENT in the new school calvinism.
I speak as a former
new school calvinist for TWENTY years. The Lord shows pity on me and delivered
me from all inconsistencies and contradictions.
May the Lord bless
you in a similar manner.
Trevor Christian Johnson
Thank you for that
information, Sing.
Sing F Lau
Trevor, you can
qualify 'faith is the instrument of justification" ALL YOU WANT.
Enough of your
reformed shibboleth! <LLLLLLOOOOOLLLL>
The PLAIN fact still
remains: an unjustified man is incapable of believing. Why? An unjustified man
is still under the condemnation of death.
Sins brought the
condemnation of death.
Righteousness brings
the justification of life.
That righteousness
was IMPUTED at the cross to all elect.
That same
righteousness is APPLIED to an individual elect PERSONALLY at effectual call
out of the state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation
Romans 5:18
"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to
condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all
men unto justification of life."
No justification, no
righteousness; no righteousness, no life.
No life, no hearing;
no hearing, no manifestation of faith.
Is that simple
enough for SOUND MINDED new school calvinists?
Forensic
justification involves RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Sing F Lau
Trevor, if you have
1% of John Gill's honesty, it would have done you great good.
You quoted from page
534. These words PRECEDED those you quoted from the same section
'Instrumentality of Regeneration', starting from the bottom of page 533.
Do you understand
them? I know you rejected them, but do you understand them? John Gill knew what
he was saying because he had a full grasp of the whole matter more completely
than midgets like the new school Calvinists.
Gill was able to
make the distinction between the EXERTION of the principle of grace without
instrumentality of the gospel ministry, and the drawing it forth into act and
exercise through the instrumentality of the gospel. I hope you get the point.
It is one
paragraph... but I have broken them up into four parts, to highlight the middle
parts of the paragraph. Take careful note of the 2nd and 3rd parts below. The
portion you quoted is the 4th part of the same paragraph.
===========
Fourthly, The
instrumental cause of regeneration, if it may be so called, are the word of
God, and the ministers of it; hence regenerate persons are said to be
"born again by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever" (1
Pet. 1:23), and again, "of his own will begat he us with the word of
truth" (James 1:18), unless by the Word in these passages should be meant
the Eternal Logos, or essential Word of God, Christ Jesus, since logov is used
in both places; though ministers of the gospel are not only represented as
ministers and instruments by whom others believe, but as spiritual fathers;
"though you have ten thousand instructors in Christ", says the
apostle to the Corinthians (1 Cor. 4:15), "yet have ye not many fathers,
for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel"; so he speaks
of his son Onesimus, whom he had "begotten in his bonds" (Philemon
1:10)...
yet this
instrumentality of the word in regeneration seems not so agreeable to the
principle of grace implanted in the soul in regeneration, and to be understood
with respect to that; since that is done by immediate infusion, and is
represented as a creation; and now as God made no use of any instrument in the
first and old creation, so neither does it seem so agreeable that he should use
any in the new creation...
wherefore this is
rather to be understood of the exertion of the principle of grace, and the
drawing it forth into act and exercise; which is excited and encouraged by the
ministry of the word, by which it appears that a man is born again; so the
three thousand first converts, and the jailor, were first regenerated, or had
the principle of grace wrought in their souls by the Spirit of God, and then
were directed and encouraged by the ministry of the apostles to repent and
believe in Christ: whereby it became manifest that they were born again.
Though after all it
seems plain, that the ministry of the word is the vehicle in which the Spirit
of God conveys himself and his grace into the hearts of men; which is done when
the word comes not in word only, but in power, and in the Holy Ghost; and works
effectually, and is the power of God unto salvation; then faith comes by
hearing, and ministers are instruments by whom, at least, men are encouraged to
believe: "received ye the Spirit", says the apostle, "by the
works of the law, or by the hearing of faith": (Gal. 3:2), that is, by the
preaching of the law, or by the preaching of the gospel? by the latter, no
doubt.
===============
If you have 1% of
John Gill's honesty, you will tell us the WHOLE truth of what Gill said, and
the precise distinction he made.
You have NOT
represented John Gill truthfully!
I always wonder how new school calvinists who SLANDER and DESPISE Gill as a hyper will be able to represent him honestly!
Sing F Lau
Trevor @ "The
instrumentality of Faith
Again, Chapter 14,
“Of Saving Faith”, in both the Westminster and the 1689 Confessions of Faith,
summarizes well the role of faith as an instrument through which God saves the
Elect:"The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the
saving of their souls, is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts, and
is ordinarily wrought by the ministry of the Word..."
=============
Chapter 11.2 already
stated without any ambiguity that the grace of saving faith is ONE of the
SAVING GRACES that accompanies the forensic justification by God's free grace.
I sometimes wonder
whether the new school calvinists ever study the 1689 for themselves.
Here is 1689.11.2
"Faith thus
receiving and resting on Christ and His righteousness, is the alone instrument
of justification;(6) yet it is not alone in the person justified, but ever
accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but worketh by
love. (7)".
Faith is one of the
saving graces that accompanied a justified person.
This justification
by God's free grace is spelt out in paragraph 1. Justification by God's free
grace enabled a justified elect to believe and rest on Christ and His
righteousness.
This act of
believing and resting in Christ EXPERIENTIALLY justifies, demonstrates,
certifies, evidences and manifests his justified state by God's free grace.
Faith is the only instrument for the justified to EXPERIENCE the blessedness
of his justified state by God's free grace. Gen 15:1-6 speaks of that - the
experiential justification of Abraham. Abraham was forensically justified by
God when God effectually called him out of the state of sin and death to grace
and salvation when he was still in Ur.
In the same chapter,
paragraph 4 reads:
"God did from all
eternity decree to justify all the elect, (11) and Christ did in the fullness
of time die for their sins, and rise again for their justification;(12)
nevertheless, they are not justified personally, until the Holy Spirit doth in
time due actually apply Christ unto them.(13)"
The above paragraph
states three distinct aspects of justification:
- Justification was
decreed for all the elect before time.
- Justification was
legally accomplished for all the elect at the cross. IMPUTATION of
righteousness took place.
- Justification was
vitally applied to each elect personally at effectual call when Christ is
actually applied unto each elect. IMPARTATION of righteousness to individual
elect takes place.
When this happens,
an elect is justified PERSONALLY.... in contrast to DECRETALLY, and LEGALLY.
When PERSONAL
justification has happened by free grace ALONE, this makes believing possible.
In believing and resting in Christ and His righteousness, the justified
experienced the blessedness of his justified state by God's free grace. Faith
alone does this, not any other saving graces (i.e graces that are effects of
the salvation already bestowed by God's free grace).
Faith and works
EVIDENCE the justified state of a man.
We see FOUR DISTINCT
aspects of justification:
DECRETAL,
LEGAL/ACCOMPLISHED,
VITAL/APPLIED, and
EXPERIENTIAL & EVIDENTIAL.
Faith has to do with
the last aspect!
The new school Calvinists MESSED it up with the LEGAL and VITAL aspects!
Trevor Christian
Johnson
Sing: In the quote by Gill
that you used in your quote above (after you called me a liar), are these
words:
"...which is
excited and encouraged by the ministry of the word."
Gill connected
regeneration with preaching and the Word.
Charles Page
Regeneration is connected by a subsequent chronological preaching; not concurrent with
regeneration, and certainly not prior to regeneration.
Trevor Christian Johnson
So, Charles, people
are regenerated first, before ever hearing any preaching, and then they hear preaching
in a totally unconnected event after regeneration and are then converted?
Charles Page
Not an unconnected
event; otherwise, you got it right.
Sing F Lau
Trevor, I did write:
"You have NOT represented John Gill truthfully!" If that makes me call
you a liar, THEN you said it.
That is precisely
your problem. You would only choose Gill's words out of context, and those that suit your notion.
Just what EXACTLY is
excited and encouraged by the ministry of the word? Please tell us.
In what way EXACTLY
did Gill connect regeneration with preaching and the Word? How are they
connected?
Is preaching connected with regeneration in that it is an instrument to bring about regeneration, OR
OR OR is preaching connected to regeneration in that it evidences the regenerated
state? Tell us the exact connection.
Please tell us. I
promise you a good and honest hearing. But no shibboleth please.
Sing F Lau
,Trevor @ So Charles,
people are regenerated first, before ever hearing any preaching and then they
hear preaching in a totally unconnected event after regeneration and are then
converted?
======
May I inquire, was
the Ethiopian eunuch regenerated BEFORE he trudged on his donkey-drawn Rolls
Royce all the way to Jerusalem to worship God, or when he heard the gospel from
Philip?
May I also inquire,
was Cornelius regenerated before Peter was sent to preach the gospel to him?
Or was he regenerated under the preaching of Peter?
Acts 2
5 ¶ And there were
dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
Those devout Jews,
from out of every nation under heaven, who made the arduous journey to
Jerusalem to worship the God of Israel, were they already regenerated before
coming to Jerusalem, or were they regenerated [SIC] by the preaching of Peter
on the day of Pentecost?
And please, if this
fact has escaped your notice until now - why did apostle Paul describe the
recipients of his epistle to the Romans as "the called of Jesus Christ...
beloved of God, called to be saints..." EVEN THOUGH they were still in
urgent need of hearing the gospel from Apostle Paul. Paul gave every indication
that those he termed as "the called of Jesus Christ... beloved of God,
called to be saints..." have not heard the gospel from others.
Ro 15:20 Yea, so
have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should
build upon another man’s foundation:
Please answer these
inquiries from the perspective of your gospel regeneration notion. Then I will
see how idea measure up to these observations. I will your your view SERIOUS
consideration.
Sing F Lau
Trevor @"The
truth is that God ordains that the Elect ordinarily should be saved through
faith, upon the hearing of the Gospel. Infants and the mentally infirm
constitute extraordinary cases, yet ordinarily the... witness of Scripture
states the following."
=============
This idea of
'ordinarily' and the 'extraordinary' ways in regeneration is a LIE to cover
another lie - i.e. regeneration through the instrumentality through the gospel
ministry.
The words of the
Lord Jesus Christ are sufficient to repudiate both.
"8 The wind
bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not
tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of
the Spirit."
Please note those
words, "SO IS EVERY ONE THAT IS BORN OF THE SPIRIT."
These words EXCLUDE
the silly and fanciful notion of 'ordinary' and 'extraordinary' cases, the so-called 'normal' and 'exceptional' cases. Take it or leave it - there is only
ONE WAY for every elect of God... either it is EVERY ELECT regenerated by the
immediate and direct activity of the Spirit WITHOUT the gospel instrumentality,
or it is EVERY ELECT regenerated by the Spirit THROUGH the gospel
instrumentality.
The 'normal' and
'exceptional' view is invented to COVER UP the lies of gospel instrumentality
in regeneration.
A lie always needs
another lie to cover it up!
I have never heard
of a farmer who claims that the activity of the wind upon his farm is dependent
upon his presence and activity at the farm. Of course I don't know that many
farmers, even though I was a farmer for 20 years. However I have heard very
many seminary-trained new school Calvinists who insist that ordinarily the Holy
Spirit depends upon their presence and activity for Him to regenerate the
elect.
I think a few years
of hard knocks on a farm may knock some sound sense into their woolly heads
<LOL>.
Sing F Lau
Yoel@ I hope as a
good pastor, you weep in your inner man while correcting us from error.
=======
[Yoel has deleted all his comments too.]
It is because I weep
for my new school Calvinists brethren here in Malaysia - we were together as
Reformed Baptists for many years, and when the Lord taught me the errors of my
way and left the new school Calvinism, I was branded a heretic - that I raise these
matters often. Trevor and his fellow RBs in the Philippines joined hands with
them in their fight against me!
Now the pseudo RBs
here, because they reacted against the truth I brought to them, are swinging
further away... and are becoming more and more Arminians! That's the reports I
get from friends in those churches!
Sing F Lau
Trevor@ The Belgic
Confession (Article 2) explains further:
“Therefore, we justly
say with Paul, that we are justified by faith alone, or by faith without works.
However, to speak more clearly, we do not mean that faith itself justifies us,
for it is only an instrument with which we embrace Christ our Righteousness.
But Jesus Christ, imputing to us all His merits, and so many holy works which
He hath done for us and in our stead, is our Righteousness. And faith is an
instrument that keeps us in communion with Him in all His benefits…”
============
Faith is only an
instrument with which we embrace Christ our righteousness - AMEN and AMEN.
The justification of
life is that which enables the justified to embrace Christ by faith. So, faith
is not in any way an instrument to secure justification. Rather, it is the
instrument with which a justified man embraced Christ!
New school Calvinists, with their colored glasses, read the Belgic Confession as saying
faith is the instrument of securing justification before God, which is clearly
NONSENSE, because an unjustified man is still under the condemnation of death.
The Confession also
says, "And faith is an instrument that keeps us in communion with Him in
all His benefits." EXACTLY. We are justified by God's free grace. All the
righteousness of Christ was IMPUTED legally, and APPLIED to us personally by God's free grace...
and faith is the instrument to keep us in communion with Christ in all His
benefits.
There is NOTHING,
ABSOLUTELY NOTHING said about faith being the instrument to be justified before
God. That is a LIE invented by the new school Calvinists!
Our faith justifies
us in an experiential ("keep us in communion with Christ in all His
benefits") and evidential (evidences that we are indeed among God's
children) manner.
But the confused and
haughty new school Calvinists messed it up with the forensic justification by the
free and sovereign grace of God!
Sing F Lau
Trevor@ "Faith
is the instrument which lays hold of Jesus. God, through free grace, enables a
person to believe. It is a gift of grace, yet God does not believe for the man;
the man must believe. Therefore, being an instrument and channel, faith does
not come at some later time after a person is united to Christ, but a person is
united to Christ by faith itself. Therefore, though it is proper to speak of a
logical priority of regeneration over faith/conversion, God monergistically
taking initiative to move the man, let us not mistake a logical priority with a
chronological one; there is no perceptible chronological gap in time, nor are
there any who are regenerate but who are yet to exercise saving faith.
Everywhere we see faith we will see the new birth, and where we see the new
birth we will see faith.
============
Faith is the
instrument which lays hold of Christ
IS NOT THE SAME as
Faith is the instrument
to get one justified before God.
If you think they
are the same, then you are very confused! The former is true, the latter is a
lie.
How does God,
through free grace, enable a man to believe? HOW? HOW? Except a man be born
again, he cannot - no ifs and no buts. No man dead in trespasses and sins is
enabled to believe! And a man cannot be born again UNLESS righteousness has be
applied to him personally, i.e UNLESS the justification of life has taken
place, with regeneration and adoption as the necessary and logical
consequences.
Trevor, you rightly
said, "God monergistically taking initiative to move the man..."
Just what is that
initiative? I will spell out what the Scriptures say: God effectually call,
by His free and sovereign grace, yes, MONO-ergistically - an elect out of his
native state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation. This enables him
to believe.
To effectually call
an elect out of his state of sin and death, these divine monergistic activities
must take place:
- forensic
justification to remove condemnation of death through the APPLICATION of Christ
righteousness to that individual elect personally.
- the forensic
justification by God, based on Christ's righteousness, gives warrant to the Holy
Spirit to regenerate the justified elect.
- that whom the
Spirit regenerated, the Father adopts into the divine family and gives to all
the rights and privileges of God's children.
The above
monergistic activities of God (in that logical order and number) ENABLE a
child of God to believe. IF and WHEN the gospel of what God has done to save
him is brought to him, he is CAPABLE of being called to believe the gospel.
Being enabled to
believe is just that. The grace of faith is worked in him by the indwelling
Spirit in his heart. This grace is to be called forth or drawn out by the
preaching of the gospel. If the gospel ministry does not reach them, that grace
of faith in them is not called forth, and no believing is manifested.
Rom 10:17 "So then
faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Tragically, too many flippantly read this as "So then regeneration cometh by hearing!"
Sing F Lau
Trevor @ "let
us not mistake a logical priority with a chronological one; there is no
perceptible chronological gap in time, nor are there any who are regenerate but
who are yet to exercise saving faith. Everywhere we see faith we will see the
new birth, and where we see the new birth we will see faith."
========
May I inquire AGAIN:
when was Cornelius regenerated; before Peter was sent to him, or when Peter was
preaching to him?
Was Cornelius
exercising saving faith - i.e. receiving and resting on Christ and His
righteousness - before he heard the gospel or after he heard the gospel from
Peter? Do remember that 'faith comes by hearing'? That's the faith we are
talking about.
And what about the
eunuch? And Lydia? And the devout Jews converted on the day of Pentecost?
And think about
Abraham, won't you? When was Abraham regenerated? And when did he exercise
saving faith? Simultaneously, or a wide gap of many years in between?
I think it is quite
self-evident that if you are willing to answer these simple questions, your own
answers will debunk your notion of the simultaneity of regeneration and gospel
conversion! You are still stuck with gospel regeneration.
Gospel regeneration
is very attractive because it gives it adherents an aura of indispensability in
the eternal salvation of God's elect... in helping God to produce His children.
You would agree that
helping God to produce His children is a WIDE WORLD OF DIFFERENCE from helping
God in nurturing His children whom He has produce all by His free and sovereign
grace.
Trevor Christian
Johnson
Yoel, Thank you for
your testimony. I was blessed by it.
Trevor Christian
Johnson
Here is more from
Jon Gill showing that he linked the word of God in Scripture to the work of
regeneration:
Gill says "that
the ministry of the word is the vehicle in which the Spirit of God conveys
himself and his grace into the hearts of men; which is done when the word comes
not in word only, but in power, and in the Holy Ghost; and works effectually,
and is the power of God unto salvation" (Body of Divinity, Chapter XI,
Book VI).
Again, Gill's Commentary:
Commentary on John
11:43
"Ver. 43. And
when he had thus spoken,.... To God his Father, in the presence and hearing of
the people; he cried with a loud voice; not on account of the dead, but for the
sake of those around him, that all might hear and observe; and chiefly to show
his majesty, power and authority, and that what he did was open and above
board, and not done by any secret, superstitious, and magical whisper; and as
an emblem of the voice and power of his Gospel in quickening dead sinners, and
of the voice of the archangel and trumpet of God, at the general resurrection;
Lazarus come forth;
he calls him by his name, not only as being his friend, and known by him, but
to distinguish him from any other corpse that might lie interred in the same
cave; and he bids him come forth out of the cave, he being quickened and raised
immediately by the power which went forth from Christ as soon as ever he lifted
up his voice; which showed him to be truly and properly God, and to have an
absolute dominion over death and the grave."
Gill linked the word
of God with regeneration.
Trevor Christian
Johnson
Yoel: I am merely
illustrating that Gill cannot be used as an ally for Hardshell beliefs.
Sing F Lau
Yoel, I was never an anti-Gill, much less a hardcore one. I heard much about him through C.H. Spurgeon.
What surprised me most is that Spurgeon greatly recommended Gill, but Gill was universally slandered and despised, left and right, by new school Calvinists who adored and
admired Spurgeon
I felt that
something was terribly wrong somewhere. It slowly dawned upon me over the years
that even though Gill was recognised and honoured as the epitome of 'Calvinism'
of his era, he is now slandered and despised by later Calvinists. I concluded
that the new school Calvinists have moved away from the gospel. And instead of
damning themselves as semi-Arminians, the slandered Gill as hyper!
Sing F Lau
Trevor, in Gill's
understanding, in many places in the Scriptures, the term "word of
God" refers to the life-giving divine person, the eternal Logos, the
second person of the Trinity. The eternal logos, the word of God, is indeed
directly and immediately linked with regeneration.
Joh 10:28 And I give
unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man
pluck them out of my hand.
John 17:2 "As
thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to
as many as thou hast given him."
Concerning John
11:43, it was the life-giving voice of Christ, the Word of God, who brought
Lazarus, from the dead, without any aid or help from men.
Gill wrote this:
didn't you read? " he being quickened and raised immediately by the power
which went forth from Christ as soon as ever he lifted up his voice; which
showed him to be truly and properly God, and to have an absolute dominion over
death and the grave."
There is NOTHING,
NOTHING whatsoever attributed to the preached word by the apostles or any man.
You picked the wrong passage. It is a passage that debunks your notion!
You will notice, it
is ONLY AFTER Christ Himself has brought Lazarus to life, that the apostles
played some role... in removing the grave clothes. BEFORE that, the apostles CAN
DO NOTHING! Well, they did stand HELPLESSLY by the tomb! Ya, they did do
something, after all! Maybe, had they been absent, Christ would have been
IMPOTENT to raise Lazarus! <LOL>
After Christ brought
Lazarus to life, ALL BY HIMSELF, he told the disciples, "Loose him, and let
him go."
What a picture of
the role and function of the gospel ministry: to set free those who Christ
Himself has brought to eternal life: to loose them from errors and falsehood
and superstitions, and to set them free by the gospel truth.
You can always, if
you want to, find in Gill's writing things that will give semblance and
impression that the preached word is instrumental in regeneration. Either Gill
was being inconsistent, or his understanding on the subject developed and grew
for the better over the long years of his ministry, or he is misread by readers
who wear colored spectacles.
People can even pick
verses in the Bible that support all sorts of vain notions... all the easier
for you to do so with Gill's writings!
Sing F Lau
The chapter on
Regeneration (Book VI, Chapter 11) in Gill's Body of Divinity, let me
summarise:
Section II - The
springs and causes of regeneration: efficient, moving, meritorious,
instrumental.
(sing: very few
modern theologians are capable of making these distinctions, much less
understanding what Gill wrote!)
1. The efficient
cause of it, who is not man, but God.
a. First,
i. Not man; he
cannot regenerate himself
ii. The nature of
the work clearly shows that it is not in the power of men to do it;
iii. Regeneration is
expressly denied to be of men
b. The efficient
cause of regeneration is God only
i. God the Father,
who is the Father of Christ
ii.. God the Son has
also a concern in regeneration,
iii. The Holy Spirit
of God is the author of regeneration
2. The impulsive, or
moving cause, is the free grace, love and mercy of God
3. The resurrection
of Christ from the dead is the virtual or procuring cause of it;
4. The instrumental
cause of regeneration, if it may be so called, are the word of God, and the
ministers of it.
In the last section
on instrumentality, he mentioned about the word of God as the instrument and
made THREE IMPORTANT OBSERVATIONS. New school calvinists are oblivious to these:
1st, that the 'word
of God' meant the Eternal Logos when found in the context of regeneration.
2nd, that the common
notion of the instrumentality in regeneration is inconsistent with the principle
of grace.
3rd, the 'word of
God' (i.e. the ministry of the gospel) must be rightly understood as the
instrument to MAKE MANIFEST the regeneration that has taken place by God's free
and sovereign and immediate activity.
I thought that was plain and simple. Take off your COLORED glasses, and read what is there! And
please don't pick and choose. Let Gill speak for himself.
In any case, read
the whole paragraph for yourself!
"Fourthly, The
instrumental cause of regeneration, if it may be so called, are the word of
God, and the ministers of it; hence regenerate persons are said to be
"born again by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever" (1
Pet. 1:23), and again, "of his own will begat he us with the word of
truth" (James 1:18), unless by the Word in these passages should be meant
the Eternal Logos, or essential Word of God, Christ Jesus, since logoV is used
in both places; though ministers of the gospel are not only represented as
ministers and instruments by whom others believe, but as spiritual fathers;
"though you have ten thousand instructors in Christ", says the
apostle to the Corinthians (1 Cor. 4:15), "yet have ye not many fathers,
for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel"; so he speaks
of his son Onesimus, whom he had "begotten in his bonds" (Philemon 1:10)
yet this instrumentality of the word in regeneration seems not so agreeable to
the principle of grace implanted in the soul in regeneration, and to be
understood with respect to that; since that is done by immediate infusion, and
is represented as a creation; and now as God made no use of any instrument in
the first and old creation, so neither does it seem so agreeable that he should
use any in the new creation: wherefore this is rather to be understood of the
exertion of the principle of grace, and the drawing it forth into act and
exercise; which is excited and encouraged by the ministry of the word, by which
it appears that a man is born again; so the three thousand first converts, and
the jailor, were first regenerated, or had the principle of grace wrought in
their souls by the Spirit of God, and then were directed and encouraged by the
ministry of the apostles to repent and believe in Christ: whereby it became
manifest that they were born again. Though after all it seems plain, that the
ministry of the word is the vehicle in which the Spirit of God conveys himself
and his grace into the hearts of men; which is done when the word comes not in
word only, but in power, and in the Holy Ghost; and works effectually, and is
the power of God unto salvation; then faith comes by hearing, and ministers are
instruments by whom, at least, men are encouraged to believe: "received ye
the Spirit", says the apostle, "by the works of the law, or by the
hearing of faith": (Gal. 3:2), that is, by the preaching of the law, or by
the preaching of the gospel? by the latter, no doubt."
Sing F Lau
What are Hardshell
beliefs?
