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Jonah 1:17¶ Now the LORD had prepared a great fish |
"Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Matthew 12:38-40 KJV
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sing
I don't read of anything that indicates Jonah died and was resurrected in the
whale's belly. Jonah 2 records
Jonah's liveliness in the whale's belly - consciously and actively
communicating with the Lord.
The comparison is the 3d3n - one in the whale's belly and one in the heart of the earth.
Mt 12
39 ¶But he answered
and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and
there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40 For as Jonas was
three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be
three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Lowe
The above verse on
the sign of Jonah jolted me from my traditional view on Jonah's story
embedded in me during my (and most?) childhood.
I first heard of it
in the Christian Apologetics forum and mused on it before bringing it up on
one Wednesday when you were expounding on the 3 days 3 nights timeline.
I'll (always) let God's scripture be true and if my traditional beliefs oppose it.. I'll tear down such stronghold.
There is a ":" between v39 and v40. And in v40 there's is the " as... so.." sentence construction.. which means in the same manner.. just like the one you preached last Sunday.
v40 is describing the sign of Jonah (v39).. use of ":" The "as... so" is in the context of the sign of Jonah.. (which we now know refers to the death and resurrection of Jesus). There are many saints who also resurrected on the 1st earthquake when Jesus died on the cross.. they stayed until Jesus was resurrected (2nd earthquake) before walking into the city. Therefore people cannot deny that there's no resurrection then. but theirs was in the earth's belly for much longer than 3d3n only Jesus' was 3d3n.
Job 17:14 I have said to corruption, Thou art my father: to the worm, Thou art my mother, and my sister.
I have to read Jonah 2 in the light of NT and not the other way around.
Jonah 2:6 & 7 used past tense "... brought up my life from corruption.." and "... my soul fainted..."
Both corruption and
faint also means death (separation of one's spirit from body) eg Job 17:14
sing
@ There is a ":" between v39 and v40. And in v40 there's is the " as... so.." sentence construction.. which means in the same manner..
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NOT in the same manner as imagined by sincere folks!
Here's the obvious
not in the same manner.
Jonah was swallowed
up alive and ended up in the whale's belly a living man; Jesus was a dead man and was
placed in the heart of the earth - hardly in the same manner.
The only thing
comparable is the common time factor, three days and three nights.
Lowe
In the context of the passage.. Jesus was asked to perform a sign. (I'm sure
they are not expecting a peekaboo. ) so what is the sign which Jesus called as the sign of Jonah?
sing
The sign of Jonah is not going into the grave alive, then died inside, and made
alive again - that what's needed if you insist "in the same manner."
The sign Jesus will
perform: he will rise from the dead (rise up from the heart of the earth after
being placed in it after three days and three nights. As I was trying to say,
the like manner consists in the three-days-three-nights time aspect.
The point of connection is restricted to the time element.
"as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly;
so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Lowe
In the passage, Jesus said, "... no sign.. but the sign of Jonah.."
what was he talking about.. was he talking about his eventual death and
resurrection in the context of the sign-in Jesus reply (simple question no
insist anything..)
sing
They were expecting the usual miraculous signs... but no such signs for them;
too many of them have been performed but they were too blind to see. The sign of Jonah - they were familiar with the story of Jonah; it's part
of their holy Scriptures. The sign of Jonah refers to Jesus being dead and buried in the heart of
the earth and rise again on the third day.
Lowe
So the word "sign" in the phrase "the sign of the prophet
Jonah" is figurative? ie there's no sign of the prophet Jonah but it
actually means "sign of Jesus" (instead)
sing
They wanted a sign - a miracle. Jesus had performed so many but they were
too blind to even notice. Another one of those would be one too many.
The sign or miracle
of the prophet Jonah is that though he was swallowed up and remained in the
whale's belly for three days and three nights, he was delivered and came forth
from the whale's belly.
I'm done; otherwise,
I would just be repeating! Thanks.
Lowe
Noted.. no problem.. just
couldn't imagine surviving a fast (not eating or drinking) for 3d3n would be
considered as a sign je.
Hmm.. many of these
passages seem to have a colon in them somehow. haha.. btw.. I've just noticed it
last night when corresponding with you. many thanks for responding.
sing
It's incredible that you would liken Jonah's three days and three nights in the
whale's belly as merely fasting for 3d3n, and that fasting 3d3n and remained alive is a
sign. No wonder you find
it so difficult to understand plain passages.
Lowe
Haha.. that's my concession on the sign of Jonah.. not biblical..
The question is why
would Jesus introduce the phrase sign of the prophet Jonah and linked it to his
death and resurrection (which clearly is a sign)
No answer required.
Lowe
The Pharisees & Sadducees were rather insistent in asking for a
sign.. after Mt 12.. in Mt 16 they did it once more.. Jesus's reply in 16:4 is
similar to 12:39 (without its continuation or explanation in 12:40)
Based on the context of both the above the sign is definitely a miracle.. and based on the understanding of the intended audience (Pharisees.. as Sadducees didn't believe in resurrection) of Jesus's reply especially 16:39-40 (a named and timed prophecy) they understood it as Jesus's resurrection Matt 27:63
This is in contrast to the other prophecy of Jesus's death and resurrection using the metaphor of the temple that they didn't understand.
As such I believe Jesus answer in 12:40 contains an ellipsis (missing word).. a common strategy of biblical writings mostly found in proverbs.. 12:40 could be understood as.
"For as Jonas was (dead) three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be (dead) three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."
Being someplace (either in the whale's belly or heart of the earth) alive and coming out alive doesn't cut it as a sign (sign of the prophet Jonas) moreover we with hindsight knows what Jesus is referring to with this prophecy.
The OT are shadows and has to be understood with the light of NT.. not the other way around..
Having said that with regard to Jonah 2:6.. the word "corruption" in the bible is related one way or another to death.. can mean decaying.. a key to understand this verse.. "corruption" here is not a place or location.. as elsewhere in the bible
"... the earth with her bars was about me for ever:..." one would definitely stay dead (ie locked in the bars of earth for ever) unless God intervenes.. yes.. God did.. "... yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God."
Side note on the Jesus "saw no corruption" that's because he was prepared for burial (embalmed) when he was still alive.. Matt 26:12
Makes sense
to me.. hope it does to you too.. (from the insistent inquirer)
sing
Lowe@ "Being someplace (either in the whale's belly or heart of the earth)
alive and coming out alive doesn't cut it as a sign (sign of the prophet Jonas)
moreover, we with hindsight knows what Jesus is referring to with this
prophecy..."
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Being swallowed alive, and remained alive in the whale's belly for three days and three nights, and was spat out alive doesn't qualify it as a sign???
There's nothing more
to say. We just need to disagree. Thanks.
Sad... Lowe can read these plain words and still ask such a "profound" question!
"as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly;
so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Lowe is likely afflicted with the colonitis disorder! (LOOOOOOOOOOOL).
After the above exchanges, I asked the question here:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/PrimitiveBaptistgroup/permalink/4336045376446895/
Some astute comments were made.
