Debating versus Inquiring

Debaters trying to convince each other!

One day in early September 2014, a certain Pete Zakaroff added me to one of his several Facebook groups and the following exchanges took place.

I confess that I’m not a “groupie” man.

09/19/2014 9:31AM

sing:

Doctor Doctrine, Brother, thanks for adding me to the group. I have removed myself. I have debated the Calvinists for a long time... and I don't see the need to do it any further. The Calvinists don't seem to see that Calvinism is full of contradictions and inconsistencies... just like Arminianism. I left calvinism after 20 years. Thanks again.

Dr Zac

I appreciate that. However, there are varying degrees of Calvinism. We need to provide options for help to those who are in need. We can't give up on them.

sing:

I don't believe a non-Calvinist can be of any help to the elitist Calvinists who are so cocksure of their positions.

Dr Zac

Its called ministry service and discipleship

sing:

May our Lord bless your ministry service and discipleship - said with sincerity in Christ. I was converted from the errors of Calvinism.

And my fellow calvinistic RB wrote me off as a heretic!!! That's all history now.

Dr Zac

Then you should have a heart to help others

sing:

Tried that for 10 years... but hitting dead wall. Till a day my wise son advised me, "Dad, leave it to the Spirit to do the work."

Dr Zac

The Spirit is doing the work and we are protecting people on my page as this page is owned by me and I control everything.

You will have Administrative powers.

sing:

I love (simple present tense) the RBs to this day... but I'm a heretic to them. Our people pray (simple present tense) for them...

Dr Zac

As I said, we have control on this page. They can't get away with that here.

I will give you admin powers

sing:

The Calvinists has IMBIBED the idea that they have arrived... and thus very difficult to convert. I leave that to the Spirit.

So, thank you very much.

Dr Zac

The Spirit works through his people. Nervous people don't show up the Spirit can't do much. There will be no one there on the page to witness to them if we leave it up to the Spirit without us. The Spirit works through God's people

One day God's people will be taken to heaven in the rapture and the Spirit will not have the same ministry on earth I just fear it will be withdrawn with God's people.

How shall they hear without a preacher?

If you are silent who will tell them? Your son is not that mature

sing:

You are there all the time. That's your calling. May the Lord bless you. I will my thoughts on my page. Those whom the Lord wants to teach, they will search and find. Debates have help no one...

Dr Zac

Everyone is won to Christ by debate.

Without debate, NO one will be saved!

Witnessing IS debate (AND prayer).

One inquirer seeking to know

sing:

I beg to differ. Those who engage in debate on doctrinal points are already in Christ even though their understanding of the truth of their salvation in Christ may differ widely. Those who engage in debate are ALREADY SET and ENTRENCHED in their beliefs... the Calvinists trying to prove Arminians wrong and vice versa.

Witnessing is heralding the truth of the gospel to God's children who are ignorant of the truth of their salvation in Christ Jesus.

I can see now why you are so zealously promoting various pages of DEBATES. Well, I wish you well.

Dr Zac

Are Calvinists saved?

I'm not an arminian.

sing:

There are SAVED people in every religion - i.e. God has sovereignly and effectually called them out of their native state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation in Jesus Christ] - such needed to be called out by the gospel ministry. There are saved people bearing all sorts of labels... and there are all sorts of calvinists. Some arminians call themselves calvinists because they love the elitist 'calvinist' label...

No, I didn't assume anything of you. I only responded to what you ACTUALLY stated. Thanks. I'm off.

09/20/2014 3:38AM

Dr Zac

We only have one life. I want mine to count for the truth.

09/20/2014 9:02AM

sing:

I have one life only, and I don't want to waste it debating those who have no desire to learn the truth. I dedicate a whole lot of my life teaching those who come inquiring for the truth. In debate EGO and PRIDE prevent men to learn the truth.

Dr Zac

If they had no desire to learn the truth they wouldn't be debating you

sing:

If they had any desire to learn the truth, they would be INQUIRING, not debating. So I guess we will do it the different way. Thanks.

Dr Zac

Inquiring is a form of debating

You have the truth, but you don't want anyone else to be convinced of the truth that you have, do you? but you don't want anyone else to be convinced of the truth that you have, do you?

sing:

You accuse me of that just because I don't want to have any part of your debate group??? That's the end of our conversation then. Thank you.

Supra, Infra, and Contra

Supra - dragonfly carrying the twig,
infra - dragonfly resting on the twig,
or contra - dragonfly holding down the twig?

An example of how a good conversation turns bad...

MON 5:58PM

Smark: What's ur stand supra or infra?

sing: What do you mean by those terms? Tell me and then maybe I'm able to answer your question.

Smark: Supralapsarianism or infralapsarianism?

sing: I know; what do you mean by those terms?

Smark: What's ur position?

sing: Give me the definitions of those two terms, then I will be able to tell you what I believe. 

Smark: Infralapsarianism (“after the lapse”) puts God’s decrees in the following order:

(1) God decreed the creation of mankind,

(2) God decreed mankind would be allowed to fall into sin through their own self-determination,

(3) God decreed to save some of the fallen, and

(4) God decreed to provide Jesus Christ as the Redeemer.

Infralapsarianism focuses on God allowing the fall and providing salvation.

Supralapsarianism (“before the lapse”) puts God’s decrees in the following order:

(1) God decreed the election of some and the eternal condemnation of others,

(2) God decreed to create those elected and eternally condemned,

(3) God decreed to permit the fall, and

(4) God decreed to provide salvation for the elect through Jesus Christ.

Supralapsarianism focuses on God ordaining the fall, creating certain people for the sole purpose of being condemned, and then providing salvation for only those whom He had elected.

sing: The way you put it, I reject supralapsarianism. Are the definitions your own words, or did you copy and paste it from somewhere? Give me the source. Thanks.

Smark: What?  He is a sovereign God.  He chose us before all.

No. I've studied that. No. From my own studies. Explain why u reject supra

sing: First thing first:

Both infra and supra equally acknowledge and magnify the sovereignty of God. If you disagree, then you need to show that one does it more than the other. Please note, I said, "The way you put it, I REJECT supralapsarianism." That's why I asked whether you copied and pasted the definitions, or they are your understanding of the terms.

Supra and infra deal with the LOGICAL ORDER of God's eternal decrees, all of them free and sovereign, since they took place before time, i.e. in eternity.

sing: (1) God decreed the election of some and the eternal condemnation of others.

======

a. I reject double predestination. I believe in election and preterition. God elected many and bypassed the rest.

b With (1) as the first, what was there to elect and to condemn? What was the object of the election and the condemnation?

Smark: Infra. is after the fall am I right? So if God chose after the fall, so the decree is after the fall?

If after the fall. He is not a sovereign God? He's not the planner of everything. 

All things are always from His sovereign control. Infra. is after the fall am I right? So if God chose after the fall. .so the decree is after the fall?

sing:

Supra and infra deal with the LOGICAL ORDER of God's eternal decrees, all of them free and sovereign, since they took place before time.

Do you understand the above statement?

Smark: Yes, I understand that. God chooses for salvation.  And condemned the others. God is sovereign and powerful; all wisdom is from Him. We have a right or high position to question that?

No! God is sovereign; He chose The elect before all.

In infra. .God is not sovereign...bcoz His election is bound of time.

sing: The way you reason is evidence that you DON'T understand what supra and infra are about. When I get to my laptop I write more.

Smark: U have a book??

sing: @ In infra. .God is not sovereign...bcoz His election is bound of time.

===========

Where did you get the idea that election in infra is bound in time?

Smark: From my own study and according to my classmates in gma.

sing: You defined infra like this:

Infralapsarianism (“after the lapse”) puts God’s decrees in the following order: (1) God decreed the creation of mankind, (2) God decreed mankind would be allowed to fall into sin through their own self-determination, (3) God decreed to save some of the fallen, and (4) God decreed to provide Jesus Christ as the Redeemer. Infralapsarianism focuses on God allowing the fall and providing salvation.

==============

So where does it say the election is AFTER the fall (something that happened in the garden of Eden)?

You are confused about one most important thing. All the decrees HAPPENED in eternity, before the actual creation and the subsequent fall.

Who is your instructor in gma?

Smark: Bakit mo tinatanong hindi mo ba kilala?

sing: You are speaking in tongue. Get an interpreter.

Infra and supra deal with the LOGICAL ORDER of the decrees of God in eternity. Therefore, in both order, the Triune God is equally sovereign.

The decrees of God on creation, fall, election, provision of the redeemer - whatever ORDER you want to put them - ALL of them took place before time, in eternity, BEFORE the fall which took place in time, in the garden of Eden. 

You need to understand this statement to avoid the many mistakes and confusion already shown by your questions and statements on the subject.

Smark: U have a book??

sing: Study THE Book.

Smark: Ur approach is not pastoral approach; be careful brother, maintain the spirit of meekness.

sing: I'm so sorry you don't like my approach. Look for someone whose approach you like. Thanks.

Smark: Ok. Ptr Nxxx is good.

sing: It is not pastoral to point you to THE Book?

Smark: I'm sorry. Doctrine is important but doctrine without humility isn't acceptable before God. "knowledge puffed up" I’m also a pastor.  Brother, be careful; be like Jesus in character!!!

sing: Who is puff up? Who is without humility? I fear you are the one, young man.

Smark: Pro 15:33 The fear of the LORD is the instruction of wisdom; and before honour is humility.

sing: When you can't cope with the truth I set before you, you fuss about my approach. I'm surprised. Do you have humility? Are you puffed up?

Thanks, Smark. Go and find someone whose approach suits your character and personality. Thanks for the exchange.

Smark: Pro 15:1 A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger.

sing: ??? Who has spoken grievous words? Who has given a loud answer?

You asked for a book, I point you to THE Book, and you are upset! What's the problem with you? Is sola scriptura just a shibboleth?

Smark: Heb 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

sing: You ARE A pastor; "I’m also pastor", said you!

Goodbye, Mark.

Smark: I want you to be my friend. .and my instructor in theological aspect but you try to discourage me 😢

12:31AM

sing: You are discouraged because I tell you the truth and make you think through what you have said? Then you need to look for someone who agrees with you and praise your beliefs whether they are biblical or not. 

I'm saddened by your attitude of learning. Even mighty Apollos was helped by Priscilla and Aquila.

Smark: I agree with u. But I'm trying to ask but ur manner in our chat is so very aggressive; we both Christian.

sing: The problem is very simple: you don't like it when I graciously showed you that you are confused and have not understood the subject. Instead, you find fault with my approach. What is so aggressive to rightly divide the word of truth? Were the Bereans aggressive by searching the Scriptures daily to see if when Paul taught were true? You have a learning problem.

I'm done. Have a good day.

==========

I’m flabbergasted with sincere folks who can’t stick to the subject they raised; instead, they resort to personal attacks. 

Is your pastor saving you? Or the reverse?

Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them:
for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself,
and them that hear thee.
1Timothy 4:16

Is your pastor saving himself and those under his charge, or is he destroying BOTH himself and those under his charge?

Beware, lest you be actually destroyed by the lies taught you by your pastors! Apostle Paul solemnly reminded Pastor Timothy of these words;

"Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all. Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee."

You may ask, "If Jesus is our Saviour, then how can pastors save us?" That's an excellent question. Isn't he a saved man? Then why does he need to save himself?

The salvation Jesus SECURED for and freely applied to His people, and the salvation His people have to work out for themselves are DISTINCT and DIFFERENT salvation. The former is eternal salvation; the latter is temporal, i.e. pertaining to the life here and now.

"And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation." Ac 2:40.

"For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?" 1Co 7:16.

"To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might, by all means, save some." 1Co 9:22.

"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." Phil 2:12

So many are UNABLE to make the distinction between the salvation that Christ has secured for His people and the salvation that His people have to work out for themselves by their obedience... that they are messed up in their understanding of salvation by free grace.

Only those whom God has freely bestowed eternal salvation are capable of working out their own temporal salvation. Isn't that simple?

Only those who have received life from their parents are able to get a life for themselves; the former makes the latter possible!

Because they fail to rightly divide the word of truth, they INEVITABLY end up with SYNERGISM, no matter how much they boast about MONERGISM!

=========

Don Hamilton
The distinction between the eternal salvation and the temporal salvation is a fundamental or basic truth that one must first understand in order to build the structure of theology properly. So few of the Elect have this knowledge! Thank God for this golden nugget of heavenly knowledge if you can see this distinction!

Bill Taylor
Amen, Bro. Sing!

Rayburn Brooks
Amen, brother Sing, excellent and correct dividing of the truth of the two different salvations that is not understood by so many.

Dave Chandler
Well written, Brother. Press on

Bernard Gowens
Good message, Sing F Lau...

Rick Leasure
If Jesus is our savior, how can we save ourselves?

Sing F Lau
That's a very good question.
The salvation Jesus SECURED for His people, and the salvation His people have to work out for themselves are DISTINCT and DIFFERENT salvation. The former is eternal salvation; the latter is temporal, i.e. pertaining to the life here and now.

"And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation." Ac 2:40.

"For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?" 1Co 7:16.

"To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some." 1Co 9:22.

Cheri Thomas
amen, Sing, AMEN!

Sing F Lau
So many are UNABLE to make the distinction between the salvation that Christ has secured for His people, and the salvation that His people has to work out for themselves by their obedience... that they are messed up in their understanding of salvation by free grace.

Because they fail to rightly divide the word of truth, they INEVITABLY end up with SYNERGISM, no matter how much they boast about MONERGISM!

Jimmy Lynn Brantley
Sadly very true. Most people do not even try to search the scriptures to prove them and those that they hear. Thank God for your gift.

Sing F Lau
Holy things must be handled with holy hands...

Daniel Goh
What about ezekiel 34

Sing F Lau
What about?