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An interesting exchange with
some reputable and renowned RBs.
Names have been altered. Don't
worry about the names.
Read what the various RBs do
believe.
Gonzila
April 25 at 12:06pm
I like the Calvinist who can
affirm limited atonement (in terms of efficacy) and yet declare the following:
"Go and tell every man, without exception that here is the good news for
him; Christ is dead for him; and if he will take him; and accept of his righteousness,
he shall have him." ~ Edward Fisher
(18 Likes)
Sing F Lau
"and if he will take him;
and accept of his righteousness, he shall have him..."
=====
So the Calvinist that you like
believes that
- a man without the
righteousness of Christ is able to take of Christ and accept Christ's
righteousness, and when he does that, Christ shall save him.
So, a man whom Christ has not saved is capable of performing those conditions in order to be saved?
So, a man without Christ's righteousness is able to take of Christ and accept Christ's righteousness. But a man without the righteousness of Christ, APPLIED to him freely and sovereignly by God, is a man still under condemnation and death. How could such a man be able to meet such condition to be saved?
Daniel S
What Dr. Gonzila is saying
comes from John 6:35, 37, and 44. In 35 Jesus says that whoever comes to him
will be saved. In 37 Jesus Says that All that the father gives to him will come
and that he will never drive away any that come. And in 44 Jesus says that none
can come to him unless the father draws him.
He likes the Calvinist (affirming vs 44) who emphasizes the truth that anyone who comes to Christ will find him to be a perfect savior (vs 35). That doesn't diminish the fact that no one can come to Christ unless drawn by the Father (vs 44) but instead emphasizes that men must come to Christ.
Sing F Lau
John 6:35 "
And Jesus said unto them, I am
the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that
believeth on me shall never thirst.
=======
Is Jesus Christ making a
declaration of truth, or is he making an offer of salvation to those without
salvation?
John 6:37,44:
The drawing by the Father
(effectual call of an elect out of his native state of sin and death) is
separate and distinct and PRIOR to a man coming to Christ in the gospel call.
The effectual call enables a man to come to Christ in the gospel call. An elect
is completely passive in the effectual call, but he is summoned to believe the
truth of his salvation (ALREADY APPLIED to him freely and sovereign by God) in
the gospel call.
There are two distinct comings spoken of.
Take a look here:
https://things-new-and-old.blogspot.my/2014/03/the-two-comings-to-christ.html
Ray
The Whole Christ by Sinclair
Ferguson.
A (the?) most significant book
of our lives and times and doctrinal pursuit of tangible religion properly
communicated to the masses. It changed the freeness of the gospel offer in my
preaching to inmates at the local prison. It emboldens the gospel offer or
presentation by a fresh focus of the gospel in Christ alone. Thomas Boston was
right to fight.
Tom
Sing F Lau Your rebuttal is -
with all respect - so superficial. A Cage Stage Calvinists knows that ability
is not the level of responsibility. You said you have read Dabney, but he
answers your objections so thoroughly that it is embarrassing to see you still
posit them as if this is new and no one has ever seen what you are stating and
answered it before. I will post the link again. And though I despair that you
will read it, it may assist others here who are reading your objections that
the can answer them. http://www.romans45.org/dabney/mercy.htm
[I don't know why he deleted
his comment! - may be it is patronising and condescending!]
Sing F Lau
Tom, with the same mutual
respect, you are barking up the wrong tree. (I was just asking questions, no
rebuttal yet!) The issue is not on ability and responsibility. I was pointing
out the absolute necessity of divine activity of salvation preceding, and
independent of human activity.
A man's responsibility is determined by the terms of the covenant to which he is a party.
I was asked, and replied thus:
1. Does a man's inability void
his lawful duty?
A man's inability to perform
certain duty does not void his lawful duty. A man, though dead in trespasses
and sins, is not exempted from his lawful duty and obligation toward God his
Creator. When God made man, God made him very good... he had the full ability
and power of moral choice and free will to fulfill his lawful duty owe to God
his Creator - to render obedience to God. A man's inability to discharge his
lawful duty towards his Creator is self-inflicted by his free will rebellion
against his Creator.
All men being sinners are under obligation to repent towards God His creator. NO single sinner has any right to remain in sin. Every single sinner is under divine obligation to repent and turn from his sin.
A man's LAWFUL duties are defined by the terms of the covenant to which he is a party!
All of God's creatures are bound by the terms of the covenant of creation.
All of God's redeemed are bound by the terms of the covenant of redemption!
Sing F Lau
Here is the answer to a related
question:
2. What determines a man's duty
to believe in Christ?
A man's duties are defined by
terms of the covenant to which he is a party! His duty is not determined by his
own inability or ability.
Only those embraced in the covenant of redemption are required by the terms of that covenant to believe Christ as their Redeemer.
All the children of God (elects that have been regenerated) are duty-bound to repent and believe in the gospel of their salvation. They are God's redeemed bound by the terms of the covenant of redemption. God's redeemed are duty-bound by the terms of the covenant of redemption to repent and believe in their Saviour the Lord Jesus Christ... because Christ is their Redeemer... it is their covenant duty to believe the truth of their salvation by Christ.
I do believe all God's children ALONE are under divine obligation to repent and believe in their Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. He is their Lord and Saviour. Upon the basis of His life and death, they have been justified, regenerated and adopted. They are children first by God's free grace, then they are called to believe the word of truth, the gospel of their salvation, Eph 1:13.
Why would anyone imagine that others are under the divine obligation to believe Christ as Saviour when Christ is not even the Saviour of all men? Why are others duty-bound to believe Christ as their Saviour when Christ did not give Himself as the Saviour of all men? That would amount to God put some men under divine obligation to believe a big fat lie!
It is contrary to God's character for God put any man under divine obligation to believe a lie - i.e. to believe that Christ is their Saviour when He had assuredly decreed that Christ is not their Saviour.
from here:
https://things-new-and-old.blogspot.my/2012/10/damnable-heresy-4-considered_1.html
Damnable Heresy 4: Considered
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Brock
// Why would anyone imagine that others are
under the divine obligation to believe Christ as Saviour when Christ is not
even the Saviour of all men? Why are others duty bound to believe Christ as
their Saviour when Christ did not give Himself as the Saviour of all men? That
would amount to God put some men under divine obligation to believe a big fat
lie! //
Sing, I would offer that the Bible teaches that humankind in general, without distinction into categories of elect or non-elect, has the moral obligation to respond to the gospel call, not only the elect. As the scriptures say "many are called, but few are chosen".
Sing F Lau
"many are called, but few
are chosen..."
======
That's taken from a parable of
the kingdom of heaven. (Mt 22:14)
That should give you a clue
what this is about.
So many of God's children among
the Jews were called by the gospel ministry, few are chosen to enjoy its
blessings. The rest were blinded. (Remember, those dead in trespasses and sins
need no blinding; they are blind enough!
Another instant in Mat 20:16
(another parable of the kingdom of heaven)
"So the last shall be
first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen."
Here, it is many are called to serve and labour in the Lord's vineyard, few are chosen to be the apostles.
Parables of the kingdom of heaven tell us something about the kingdom of heaven; not how those outside the kingdom get INTO the kingdom.
That parable was told in response to the oblique COMPLAINT of the apostles "... we have forsaken all blah blah blah... what shall we have therefore.
The parable rebukes them, "It is enough that you are the few chosen ones; you are apostles. Isn't that enough?"
I hope this helps.
Gonzila
Sing, with all respect I cannot
agree when you write: //Why would anyone imagine that others are under the
divine obligation to believe Christ as Saviour when Christ is not even the
Saviour of all men?//
In fact, the apostle Paul plainly affirms there's a sense in which Jesus Christ is the Savior of all men: “For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe” (1 Timothy 4:10, ESV).
Sing F Lau
Thanks, Dr Gonzila.
"... who is the Savior of
all people, especially of those who believe.”
God purposed eternal redemption
for His people.
Christ secured the same eternal
redemption for the same people.
The Spirit of God applies that
eternal redemption to each elects personally at God's appointed and approved
time.
The gospel ministry is ordained to proclaim that good news to them that ARE SAVED.
1Co 1:18
For the preaching of the cross
is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power
of God.
Them that are saved - those to whom God the Spirit has applied that eternal redemption personally - who believe the gospel are saved by the ministry of the gospel.
The salvation by the life and works of Christ and the salvation by the ministry of the word are distinct and different. In the former, His people are entirely passive, saved to the uttermost; in the latter, God their Father summons them to believe the truth of their salvation by God's free and sovereign grace. Believing the truth of their salvation SAVES them from fables, lies, falsehood, grants them assurance, comfort, peace, etc; teaching them to deny ungodliness, etc Titus 2:11-12.
A biblical distinction is the essence of sound theology.
Concerning "who is the Saviour of all people," these two passages will give you the Bible's own interpretation:
Rev 5:9 "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation."
Rev 14:6 "And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people."
Brock
// The gospel ministry is
ordained to proclaim that good news to them that ARE SAVED. //
I disagree, Sing. The gospel is to be proclaimed without distinction to both the elect and the non-elect. It is a genuine and good offer, even for those who do not receive its benefits.
// Concerning "who is the Saviour of all people," these two passages will give you the Bible's own interpretation: //
Well, he is the Savior of all people in the sense that he is the Savior of every kind of person, without distinction. There is no obstacle to salvation to any people group in the world, in contrast to the understanding of many during NT times who supposed that God only had favour for certain ethnic group(s).
Sing F Lau
It is obvious that we disagree.
That's fine.
I read of Christ repeated and
emphatic instruction to the recommissioned Apostles, reminding them of their
calling.
"FEED my lambs... FEED my
sheep... FEED my sheep."
Many think they help to turn
goats into sheep, others think they help God produce sheep.
Jesus said "FEED my sheep " The activity of FEEDING has to do with the living, i.e. God's children, the elect that has been regenerated freely and sovereign by God, born of God, those that ARE SAVED; Christ's sheep. I'm no deep theologian, a simple farmer.
There are sincere folks trying
to feed the dead with milk and honey. The Chinese offer roast pork and peking
duck to the death!
I agree with your take on
"all people."
=============
Exchanges found here:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1689fellowship/permalink/1182903028503885/
