J. I. Packer is a renowned Anglican modern day calvinist.
A good friend posted the picture above on Facebook... and attracted many likes!
I left a comment, and a little exchange took place. Read, and enjoy yourself.
Sing
The first sentence is just another typical calvinist's fable.
The truth is doctrinal preaching bores EVEN many of God's children. Apostle Paul said that, and warned against that.
4:1 ¶ I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
(clearly apostle is speaking of Christ's sheep; the time will come when EVEN the sheep will not endure sound doctrine!)
Christ's hard sayings offended many of God's children. God's children can be so easily offended, and they were NO hypocrites; they were sincere disciples, but sincerely misguided!
The truth is doctrinal preaching bores EVEN many of God's children. Apostle Paul said that, and warned against that.
4:1 ¶ I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
(clearly apostle is speaking of Christ's sheep; the time will come when EVEN the sheep will not endure sound doctrine!)
Christ's hard sayings offended many of God's children. God's children can be so easily offended, and they were NO hypocrites; they were sincere disciples, but sincerely misguided!
[I'm just stating harsh biblical reality; and NOT condoning nor approving the anti-doctrine mentality and doctrinal woolliness that prevail among Christians!]
Robert
Sing, God's children be Hypocrites as well. unless you have a different
understanding of a hypocrite. And it is true only sound doctrine can
save the Lord's sheep in time! I am not sure I understand your
objection?
Sing
The
calvinist's definition of a hypocrite precludes the idea of a child of
God!!! And J I Packer is a well known Anglican calvinist.
Robert
Right but not mine!
Sing
In the calvinist's fable, no child of God can be a hypocrite, and no hypocrite can be a child of God. They are both mutually exclusive.
Stephe
Do you say this because in your understanding, Sing, Calvinist teaching is that all Christians are perfect?
Sing
No, I don't.
In
Packer's statement above, the hypocrites are contrasted with Christ's
sheep, OBVIOUSLY implying that they AREN'T among the sheep! I fear good
innocent PBs who don't know what those calvinists mean by their "grace"
soundings words, some will soon imbibe those ideas!
Stephe
Methinks this quote is in error.
A) Doctrinal preaching won't save anyone - only the work that Christ did on the cross can save.
B) Christ's sheep don't need saving. If they are in His flock, they have salvation.
A) Doctrinal preaching won't save anyone - only the work that Christ did on the cross can save.
B) Christ's sheep don't need saving. If they are in His flock, they have salvation.
Sing
Doctrinal preaching DOES save, ONLY not in the way the calvinists like J I Packer imagine.
1Ti 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both SAVE thyself, and them that hear thee.
Only those to whom Christ's work of redemption has been applied, THAT IS, those that are saved freely by God's grace, can be saved through doctrinal preaching. The former is eternal salvation; the latter temporal salvation.
Christ SAVED His sheep from the LOST condition, separated from God, in their native state of sin and death, and deserving of eternal damnation; the doctrinal preaching SAVES Christ's SAVED sheep from their ignorance, superstitions, lies, hopelessness, etc... and instruct and edifies them to live godly, etc.
1Ti 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both SAVE thyself, and them that hear thee.
Only those to whom Christ's work of redemption has been applied, THAT IS, those that are saved freely by God's grace, can be saved through doctrinal preaching. The former is eternal salvation; the latter temporal salvation.
Christ SAVED His sheep from the LOST condition, separated from God, in their native state of sin and death, and deserving of eternal damnation; the doctrinal preaching SAVES Christ's SAVED sheep from their ignorance, superstitions, lies, hopelessness, etc... and instruct and edifies them to live godly, etc.
Stephe
I should have clarified.
A) Doctrinal preaching can't provide eternal salvation for anyone.
Is that better. It is more to the point of what I intended.
A) Doctrinal preaching can't provide eternal salvation for anyone.
Is that better. It is more to the point of what I intended.
Sing
Heb 5
12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
Doctrines can choke them who refuse to grow up... such babes are NO hypocrites but the sheep of Christ.
12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
Doctrines can choke them who refuse to grow up... such babes are NO hypocrites but the sheep of Christ.
