Divine sovereignty and human responsibility - some thoughts

This represents the popular idea of
divine sovereignty and human responsibility!

Here is an interesting exchange...

Cheddar
If I am not a sheep, what needs to happen for me to become one?

(a reply to this question is found right at the end..sing)

Cray

All men are commanded to repent and obey Christ and honour the gospel...if any do not do this it is entirely their own fault and they reap the consequences of their godless actions and behaviour. The fact that God is Sovereign does not exclude the responsibility of man.

Sing F Lau
All men are commanded to repent and obey Christ and honour the gospel...if any do not do this it is entirely their own fault and they reap the consequences of their godless actions and behaviour. The fact that God is Sovereign does not exclude the responsibility of man.
===================
This is complete nonsense - just being honest and plain, you can take it as rudeness.
I'll explain to you why it is complete nonsense.

Your idea necessarily implies that God requires EVEN those whom He expressly did not elect, nor gave to Christ to redeem, and whom Christ expressly did not die for nor redeem, to believe that Jesus Christ is their Saviour.

Do you really believe in such a God?

Who has a duty to believe that Jesus Christ is his Saviour?
Common sense tells me that it is those whom Jesus Christ is indeeed their Saviour. Such alone have OBLIGATION to believe the truth of their salvation in Jesus Christ.

God is sovereign in redemption, in redeeming HIS people; and it is the responsibility of His REDEEMED people to believe the truth of their redemption, ALREADY FREELY applied to them.

God DOES NOT require any man to believe a lie. God DOES NOT require or command the NON-ELECT to believe Jesus Christ is their Saviour. Jesus Christ is NOT their Saviour.

A man's duty and obligation is determined by the terms of the covenant to which he is a party.

Only those who are party to the covenant of redemption are under the covenant obligation to believe that Jesus Christ is their Saviour.

This represents the biblical teaching on
divine sovereignty and human responsibility!

Cray

I love your style Sing and have no problem with it. The truth is too important to allow inaccuracies to pass by undetected. I will need to reconsider my wording above and reflect upon how that fits within my theological framework.

Sing F Lau

The fact that God is Sovereign does not exclude the responsibility of man.
===================
The sovereignty of God in the context of redemption must be matched by the responsibility of man in the same context - i.e. the responsibility of man must be understood in the context of redemption - those in the covenant of redemption are under obligation to believe the truth of their redemption.

Anything else is just nonsensical.
Tell me that I'm wrong. I would be very happy to hear your reason.

Cray

I like that last statement but have my "thinking cap" on at the moment trying to figure out how that squares with what you have said above.

Sing F Lau

Point out what are squares and what are circles in what I have stated.

Cray 

OK, I'll say this...God commands all men to repent and live in accordance with his law. You could agree with that brother?

Cray

The very fact Sing you wrote above: " The fact that God is Sovereign does not exclude the responsibility of man. "...I would assume you agree with my statement.

 Cray

OK, if that is correct it seems to me that God would delight that all men honour his law and live in accordance with his holy standards. Do you agree?

Sing F Lau

God commands all men to repent and live in accordance with his law.
========
Please note, that this is starkly distinct from
"All men are commanded to repent and obey Christ and honour the gospel"

Yes, ALL men are under the covenant of creation, under the obligations of the terms of the covenant of creation, creatures owing their duties to the Creator... to obey His commands as God's creatures.

Sing F Lau

Cray, you are the one who wrote this:
"The fact that God is Sovereign does not exclude the responsibility of man."

I just quoted what you are saying!

Cray

Yes and God would delight that all men honour his law

Yes, I see what you are saying now...all that is true but because Christ only died for the eternal salvation of the elect then it follows that the non-elect are not obliged to believe that Christ died for them (which is not true!).

As you say above, " Yes, ALL men are under the covenant of creation, under the obligations of the terms of the covenant of creation, creatures owing their duties to the Creator... to obey His commands as God's creatures. " Amen!

Sing F Lau

Yes, the Creator deserves to be honoured by His creatures.

The Redeemer deserved to be honoured by His redeemed.

Different spheres altogether!

When Calvinists mouth this shibboleth of "divine sovereignty and human responsibility", they are speaking of the responsibility of ALL NATURAL MAN.

That's just a lie, and makes God a liar!

Cray

That's what I meant to say in my opening remarks but it got messed up a bit!

Sing F Lau

That's because you are still using the language of the typical and popular Calvinism!

Cray

Yes, that's excellent Sing...thank you.

Sing F Lau

it is... a typical Calvinistic shibboleth...
"All men are commanded to repent and obey Christ and honour the gospel...if any do not do this it is entirely their own fault and they reap the consequences of their godless actions and behaviour. The fact that God is Sovereign does not exclude the responsibility of man."

Cray 

Yeah, my mind is still embedded with some of this thinking. Sing do you agree with Floyd's comments above...you are free to point out the differences...this is where we learn.

Cray 

Floyd writes:" If I can just put a clause here, then let yall get back to the discussion, God's word was written to the Church. Not to the community or who ever care to pick it up and read it. It is a specific letter to a specific group. God does not desire all men to repent and God does not desire all men to live according to the law etc. ..NOT if the "all men" means all people ever born. There is no way that God desires a man to repent that is under His wrath " How is this correct and in what ways is it inaccurate if at all?

Sing F Lau

I remember a certain Floyd who befriended me, but he has since "blocked" me I think. I don't see his comments. He abhors my plain speaking.

Cray

I didn't know that. I don't object to your plain speaking. I'm learning...so continue brother in your plain speaking, please. I'm learning.

Cray

So waiting for your comments Sing.

Sing F Lau

Comments to what?

I don't make comments when I don't have the luxury of having the author rebutting me!

Cray

Floyd writes:" If I can just put a clause here, then let yall get back to the discussion, God's word was written to the Church. Not to the community or who ever care to pick it up and read it. It is a specific letter to a specific group. God does not desire all men to repent and God does not desire all men to live according to the law etc. ..NOT if the "all men" means all people ever born. There is no way that God desires a man to repent that is unde\r His wrath " How is this correct and in what ways is it inaccurate if at all?

Cray

 Is that accurate or not?

 In the interests of truth is that correct biblically?

Sing F Lau

1. God's word was delivered to His redeemed people. The Church is made up of a fraction of the redeemed, gathered out of the world into the visible assemblies of saints. 

2. God does not desire all men to repent. He commands all men, all ever born, to repent of their sins. No man has the right to remain in their sins. Each man is under divine obligation as God's creatures to live according to His law. The creatures are under divine obligation to the Creator to live according to His law. Failing to do so is the reason and basis for their JUST condemnation. 

3. God commands His redeemed to believe in the truth of their FREE redemption in Jesus Christ and to walk uprightly according to the will of their Father. 

4. With respect to eternal salvation, God had sovereignly and freely purposed, accomplished, and applied that salvation to each elect, at His appointed and accepted time when they were still dead in trespasses and sins.
In their temporal salvation, He is not willing that any of them should perish, but do His will and be saved.

Does this help?

Cray

Yes, that was excellent thank you. I'm very happy with the explanation given.

Sing F Lau

If I am not a sheep, what needs to happen for me to become one?
========
A man has no basis to say "if I am not a sheep." It is not his business to know whether he is a sheep. His business is to believe that he is a sinner under the just condemnation of God, and Jesus Christ is God's provision for SUCH AS him.

It is better to ask, "How may I know that I am a sheep?"
Believing on the Lord Jesus Christ gives evidence that one is a sheep!

It is a revealed truth that God has elected a vast multitudes out of the fallen race of Adam, and He has provided Jesus Christ to be their Saviour.

It is not revealed to any one that he is not a sheep.
It is revealed that God provided an all-sufficient Saviour to Saviour sinners...

1Ti 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

 ... more to come...

Take a look at this article dealing with divine sovereignty and human responsibility rightly divided.
http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2008/01/why-do-we-pray-for-salvation.html.

                      

"Every branch IN Me..."

 

"Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away:

and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, 

that it may bring forth more fruit."
John 15:2.

I like the grapes in the picture very much, but I do abhor and detest the many fables people foist upon this plain saying of Jesus Christ.

Whatever the passage says, this much is clear:
1. Jesus is speaking of those that are IN Him.
- If a man can't get this plain fact right, he won't get anything else right with this passage!

2. Jesus' declaration presupposes that there are branches IN Him that do not bear fruit, i.e. barren!
- Too many sincere men are choked by this hard truth even though it is in perfect harmony with many other warnings against fruitlessness.
- It is obvious and common sense that the warning of fruitlessness relates to those who are capable of bearing fruit, i.e. those that are in union with Christ.

3, He makes a declaration concerning such branches in Him - His Father takes them away.
- Such will suffer severe chastening in the Father's hand!

Despite all these plain facts, sincere folks still believe the fable that there is no such thing as God's children who are barren!

Whoever would relate the issue of fruitlessness with the dead and lifeless but the Calvinistic, as well as the Arminian preachers and their followers!

Could Christ have stated the matter in a plainer manner?

4. Every one UNITED to Christ by the free and sovereign grace of God in the effectual calling is irrevocably and immutably united with Christ and remain in Christ. 

- Everyone united to Christ by the free and sovereign grace of God REMAINS in Christ forever. 
- Being taken away is not the undoing of that union. Being taken away speaks of the FATHERLY chastisement upon fruitless children. 

- Equating the two evidences confusion, and ignorance of the distinct aspects of salvation.

- The former speaks of eternal salvation; the latter speaks of temporal salvation.

A good conscience

 A good conscience:
- is baptism a man's appeal to God for a good conscience, or
- is baptism a man's answer to God from a good conscience?

Or are they same, and don't waste time splitting facial hairs!

1Pet 3:21-22

Translation 1
21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you - not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience - through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

Translation 2
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
[Thanks to Ante Zivkovic for the alert]

=================

Translation 1: "an appeal to God for a good conscience."
Translation 2 : "the answer of a good conscience toward God."

And so many think it matters not which translation they use!!!
Even a Chinese village bumpkin like me knows the VAST difference between the two!
"AN APPEAL to God for a good conscience" and "the answer of a good conscience toward God" are two COMPLETELY different things.

For a start, just state two STARK differences:
- The former implies a man DOES NOT yet have a good conscience; he is appealing to get one.
- The latter presupposes a man has a good conscience, and is doing something to evidence it.

- "... not the removal of dirt from the flesh..."
- "... the putting away of the filth of the flesh...

Only the ignorant cannot discern the vast difference between the two.

You can think further on the subject.

Go here for an excellent article:

Modern Bibles Corrupt Best Verse on Baptism
www.letgodbetrue.com/bible/baptism/best-verse-corrupted.php  
Modern Bibles Corrupt Best Verse on Baptism "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God."

"Even so" and its implication - Romans 5:18

October 2, 2010 at 10:52pm

Romans 5:18
"Therefore as by the offence of one
judgment came upon all men to condemnation [of death];
EVEN SO
by the righteousness of one
the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

Please note the two tiny but pivotal words, "EVEN SO" and its implications.

Sing F Lau
The legal condemnation of the whole human race took place in the garden of Eden through the action of Adam.
- EVEN SO, the elect's legal justification took place at the cross through the redemptive acts of Christ on the cross.

A man's legal condemnation became personal at his conception; he was conceived and born in sin. Imputed condemnation was applied to him personally. He was ENTIRELY passive at his conception (prior to conception, he did not exist as a personal entity, even though he existed as a legal entity) and birth.
- EVEN SO, an elect's legal justification became personal when it is applied to him personally at his spiritual birth, when God effectually called him out of the state of sin and death to that of grace and salvation in Christ Jesus. He was entirely passive in his justification by God's free grace, and regeneration by the Spirit. An elect in the state of condemnation of death can't possibly do any spiritual act to assist in his justification before God).

A man's personal condemnation is experienced by his actual acts of sins and transgression. He experiences the guilt and condemnation of his transgression of God's law. Many do not live old enough to experience the effects their state of condemnation in this life.
- EVEN SO, and elect's justified state by God's free grace is EXPERIENCED by his acts of believing in Christ - an act of righteousness - through the gospel ministry. They experienced the blessedness of their justified stated through faith and works of righteousness.

A man's personal and experiential condemnation shall finally be publicly vindicated before all the saints and the holy angels on the great day of judgment, and be cast into the lake of fire.
- EVEN SO, the elect's personal and experiential justification shall finally be publicly vindicated before the wicked and the fallen angels on the great day of judgment.

Sing F Lau
New school calvinists adamantly insist that regeneration by the Spirit of God MUST LOGICALLY precede the forensic/LEGAL justification by God through their faith, since only the regenerated are able to believe. Such fable is repudiated by the Scripture under consideration.

Romans 5:18 "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; EVEN SO by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

Sin brought the condemnation of death.
- Can life be given before the condemnation of death is removed by the justification of life?

Righteousness is the prerequisite of life.
- Can there be life before the righteousness of life has been APPLIED personally?

God the Father and God the Spirit work in perfect harmony.
- Will the Spirit regenerate someone whom the Father has not justified, i.e. has removed the condemnation of death through the application of the righteousness of Christ?

Go figure out, dear brothers!

With all due respect, new school calvinists are some of the most irrational folks around... no more sounder than the Arminians they despised and ridiculed! Read this charge here!
http://things-new-and-old.blogspot.com/2009/09/therefore-as-arminians-reject-doctrine.html

Ardit
Excellent! I've often speculated why the second half of the verse is not upheld to the same standard as the first.

Sing F Lau
Justification by God's free grace LOGICALLY precedes regeneration... regeneration is only possible after the righteousness of life has been imputed, AND applied personally.

Justification by God's free grace is called 'justification of life' because in justification the righteousness of life is APPLIED (it was IMPUTED at the cross) personally, thus giving divine warrant for the Spirit of God to regenerate the justified.

Justification by the believing act of God's children FOLLOWS regeneration, because only a regenerated elect, i.e. a child of God can believe. This simple fact that only a child of God can believe DEBUNKS the POPULAR and IRRATIONAL IDEA that one must believe in order to be justified by God.

How can a person who can believe (and therefore possesses eternal life) is still unjustified, and needed to believe in order to be justified before God? And new school calvinists who boast to be logical and rational believe such irrational and nonsensical notion - you must believe in order to be justified by God!

The verdict, Ro 3:24 "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus."

Sing F Lau
‎"the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."
1. The FREE GIFT... 'free' means 'free', without any condition whatsoever. A 'gift' is a 'gift' - costing the recipient ABSOLUTELY nothing, and without him asking or desiring for it.

2. 'CAME' - simple past tense (English..., anyway). It happened, a done thing. The justification through the imputation of Christ righteousness happened at the cross. It was a done thing... when we DID NOT even exist as personal being... even though we existed as legal entity in the Book of Life!

3. 'ALL MEN' - yes, ALL MEN, not one more and not one less, all that are in Christ Jesus, given to Christ, His people, as many as He represented. Adam represented the whole human race. Christ represented all that God has given to Him out of the fallen human race.

4. "UNTO JUSTIFICATION OF LIFE" - sin brought condemnation of death. Justification by God through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus is justification unto life... because in justification, the righteousness of Jesus Christ is IMPUTED to all His people at the cross, and righteousness is the prerequisite to life.

IMPUTATION of Christ's righteousness does not requires the actual existence of a person... it is a LEGAL transaction. The elect existed as legal entities, each name listed in the Lamb's Book of Life.

APPLICATION or IMPARTATION of Christ's righteousness requires the personal existence of the recipients.

Patron
a reprobate is in sin and condemned because the seed of the physical father, don't have to wait for birth, is the seed of a fallen men, the seed of Adam.... I think so, right?

Patron
‎*your quote:" Each member of Christ's family is a legal entity prior to existing as a personal entity before the foundation of the world. All the legal entities' names were entered in the book of life before the foundation of the world."
*Revelation 3: 5 The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels. 6 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'

*I just wanna ask you because I get confuse when the Lord is saying He won't blot out his name those who conquer.... my question:
there are some that will have their name blot out? . They are in first, and then blot out? please Sing can you instruct me so I can understand the Lord warning on verse 5. Thanks

Sing F Lau

You ask a very interesting question.
Here is an outline on the Book of Life:
http://www.letgodbetrue.com/sermons/pdf/book-of-life.pdf

...The author explained the following about Revelation 3:5, thus
"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."
1. It DOES NOT threaten to blot their names out.
2. It DOES NOT say that any get their names blotted out.
3. It DOES NOT say it is possible for names to be blotted out.
4. It only encourages the faithful that they will not be blotted out.
5. It is common among men to blot names out of wills and trusts.
6. God cannot and will not lose a single one of His elect.
7. Therefore, it is only positive encouragement to be an overcomer.

To say otherwise has many grave implications upon the characters of the Lord, and the gospel truth.

Patron
Thanks Sing! very bless by outline