Original post and exchanges here:
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Free Offer of Salvation - a popular superstition!
An offer needs to be accepted. And supposing God offers salvation to those without salvation and waits for them to accept that salvation, what would be the outcome?
The superstitious Chinese make very generous offerings to their dead relatives... and those offerings just rot at the graves (unless they take the offerings home and fill their own belly with them!). The dead have no ability to accept the offerings.
Why are some so blind to such a simple truth? Scriptures say - judicial blinding. And remember, the dead need no further blinding. It is the stiff-necked children of God who are blinded from the obvious truth.
1. If eternal salvation is indeed offered,
- who offers it (God, or preacher, etc)?
- to whom offered (those in their native
state of sin and death, those already regenerated, or if there is a 3rd group,
tell us), and
- when is it offered (at the preaching of the
gospel)?
2. If eternal salvation is indeed offered,
- it must be offered to those STILL without
that salvation. If that be true, how would such who are still dead in
trespasses and sins be able to accept what is offered?
- If eternal salvation had been offered to
you while you were without that salvation, i.e. still in your native state of
sin and death, would you have the ability to accept it?
3. An offer by one party implies the action
of acceptance by the other party for there to be a transaction. Therefore that
transaction is CONDITIONED upon an action of the person who is offered eternal
salvation.
- The free offer folks have just turned
"salvation by grace alone" into a shibboleth, and nonsense!
Before you dismiss simple reasoning, remember it is the LORD God himself who summoned, 'Come, let us reason together..."
The grace of God that purposed eternal salvation for the elect, and accomplished it for the same people, is ALSO the same grace that sovereignly and freely APPLIED that same salvation to each individual of the same people, at God's own appointed and approved time.
God DID NOT offer salvation. He sovereignly APPLIES that salvation to an elect when he was still in his native state of sin and death, in enmity and rebellion against God. The Calvinists (and their first cousins Arminians) imagine such dead in trespasses and sins can accept an offer from God!
That's the gospel, and God's children (elect to whom salvation HAS BEEN APPLIED personally) are summoned to believe the truth of their salvation, the gospel, the good news of what God HAS DONE by His free and sovereign grace.
The "offer of salvation" fable is BAD NEWS to the dead in trespasses and sins, and makes the preachers appear completely superstitious and stupid (i.e. lacking common sense!).
I'm sure you know why.
===========
Gary Brinson
I truly appreciate the truth expressed in
this. Thank you, Bro Gary Brinson
John Vanderzyden
Good day, Sing. It was really bad news when Calvin wrote that
there is nothing that can be done, and the MOST men are created for
destruction. Not only is that horrible news, but it is nonsensical. Unbiblical.
I notice a lack of Scripture in your
rationale. So allow me to present a small sampling from the Word which makes it
abundantly clear that men either receive or reject the salvation that God
offers in grace. Only in the context of human freedom and divine freedom can we
make sense of the grace and the gifts of God. He freely offers, and we freely
receive. This is love, not works.
First, you are forgetting many passages of
Scripture which indicate volition and perseverance.
1 Corinthians 9:16–18 (NASB95)
16 For if I preach the gospel, I have nothing
to boast of, for I am under compulsion; for woe is me if I do not preach the
gospel.
17 For if I do this VOLUNTARILY, I have a
reward; but if against my will, I have a stewardship entrusted to me.
18 What then is my reward? That, when I
preach the gospel, I may OFFER the gospel without charge, so as not to make
full use of my right in the gospel.
1 Corinthians 9:26–27 (NASB95)
26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not
without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;
27 but I discipline my body and make it my
slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be
DISQUALIFIED.
John Vanderzyden
You also seem to neglect passages on
RECEIVING. Receipt means free choice. Receipt is the opposite of rejection. An
offer must given before one can receive.
Luke 9:47–48 (NASB95)
47 But Jesus, knowing what they were thinking
in their heart, took a child and stood him by His side,
48 and said to them, “Whoever RECEIVES this
child in My name RECEIVES Me, and whoever RECEIVES Me RECEIVES Him who sent Me;
for the one who is least among all of you, this is the one who is great.”
Luke 10:10–11 (NASB95)
10 “But whatever city you enter and they do
not RECEIVE you, go out into its streets and say,
11 ‘Even the dust of your city which clings
to our feet we wipe off in protest against you; yet be sure of this, that the
kingdom of God has come near.’
Luke 18:17 (NASB95)
17 “Truly I say to you, whoever does not
RECEIVE the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all.”
John 1:11–13 (NASB95)
11 He came to His own, and those who were His
own did not RECEIVE Him.
12 But as many as RECEIVED Him, to them He
gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His
name,
13 who were born, not of blood nor of the
will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 5:41–44 (NASB95)
41 “I do not RECEIVE glory from men;
42 but I know you, that you do not have the
love of God in yourselves.
43 “I have come in My Father’s name, and you
do not RECEIVE Me; if another comes in his own name, you will RECEIVE him.
44 “How can you believe, when you RECEIVE
glory from one another and you do not SEEK the glory that is from the one and
only God?
John 16:24 (NASB95)
24 “Until now you have asked for nothing in
My name; ask and you will RECEIVE, so that your joy may be made full.
and on and on and on....
John Vanderzyden
Rejection is also a free choice. Rejection is
the opposite of reception.
John 12:48 (NASB95)
48 “He who REJECTS Me and DOES NOT RECEIVE,
has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last
day.
Luke 20:17 (NASB95)
17 But Jesus looked at them and said, “What
then is this that is written:
‘THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED,
THIS BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone’?
Luke 7:30 (NASB95)
30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers REJECTED
God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.
Luke 9:22 (NASB95)
22 “The Son of Man must suffer many things
and be REJECTED by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed and
be raised up on the third day.”
Luke 10:16 (NASB95)
16 “The one who listens to you listens to Me,
and the one who REJECTS you REJECTS Me; and he who REJECTS Me REJECTS the One
who sent Me.”
Luke 17:25 (NASB95)
25 “But first He must suffer many things and
be REJECTED by this generation.
Romans 11:13–15 (NASB95)
13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles.
Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my
fellow countrymen and save some of them.
15 For if their REJECTION is the
reconciliation of the world, what will their ACCEPTANCE be but life from the
dead?
and on and on and on....
Sing F Lau
"First, you are forgetting many passages
of Scripture which indicate volition and perseverance..."
====
Just who are these passages addressed to -
the spiritually dead, or those already made alive freely by the grace of God?
John Vanderzyden
Is the Bible written only to the Calvinistic
elect?
John Vanderzyden
Also, please read the other passages on
receiving and rejecting, and then let's discuss the audience for those
teachings.
Sing F Lau
That's better - asking questions is better
than making statements.
The Scriptures is written for God's children,
declaring to them the good news of what God has done to save them in and
through the Lord Jesus Christ. God's children are found in every RELIGIONS, and
they needed to be reached with the truth of their salvation by God's free and
sovereign grace. And in case you think I'm a calvinist, you couldn't be more
mistaken.
John Vanderzyden
Here is a statement: The Bible was written to
all men. ALL.
John Vanderzyden
You seem to be avoiding the abundance of
Scripture that asks men to make a choice: if you do not receive, then you
reject.
John Vanderzyden
Even if you are not a Calvinist , you hold to
a central precept of Calvin: Election is individual and unconditional. Correct?
Sing F Lau
I hold to a central teaching of Christ taught
Apostle Paul...
3 ¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord
Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly
places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him
before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame
before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption
of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his
will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace,
wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Sing F Lau
You seem to be avoiding the abundance of
Scripture that asks men to make a choice: if you do not receive, then you
reject.
=======
Try getting a man dead in trespasses and sins
to choose.
2:1 ¶ And you hath he quickened, who were
dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to
the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the
spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation
in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh
and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
John Vanderzyden
You are not acknowledging the passages that I
wrote to you. Why is that?
In 1 Corinthians 2, we read that a man must
RECEIVE the Spirit before he can discern the things of God. Otherwise, He will
be unable in His natural state to understand.
Ephesians 1 concerns the elect people of God,
whom God chose corporately before the foundation of the world.
But I notice that you are avoiding the
passages that I set before you.
Sing F Lau
Which passage in 1Cor 2 say what you are
saying?
Do you know to whom 1Cor was written?
Here:
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth,
to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that
in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and
ours:
3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our
Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
John Vanderzyden
You keep saying that 1 Corinthians was only
written to the Calvinistic/Lutheran/Augustinian elect. But you do not reconcile
your view with all of the passages that I wrote above. Why not?
Brother, please get the courage to deal
squarely with those passages that I set before you. If you won't do that, then
you have no warrant for your hermeneutic or for your attempts to teach it.
Sing F Lau
Ephesians 1 concerns the elect people of God,
whom God chose corporately before the foundation of the world.
=====
Whom God chose before the foundation of the
world, Christ came to save them in time, and the Holy Spirit APPLIES that
salvation to each of the chosen ones when they were still dead in trespasses
and sins.
John Vanderzyden
Brother, please get the courage to deal
squarely with those passages that I set before you. If you won't do that, then
you have no warrant for your hermeneutic or for your attempts to teach it.
I'll be back in awhile.
Sing F Lau
State each passage you want dealt with, and
they shall be dealt with squarely, and roundly too!
Good night
John Vanderzyden
You have done nothing to justify your view of
Scripture. And you don't have the courage. What does this say about your
teaching?
John Vanderzyden
You think that God made most men to be
vessels for destruction.
John Vanderzyden
You reject Jesus' teachings on receiving and
rejection.
Sing F Lau
Is that a question or a statement?
John Vanderzyden
All statements.
You reject the plain words of Jesus. He is Logos, but you appear to reject some of His words. Why is that?
Sing F Lau
Christ said this:
3 Except a man be born
of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh;
and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
You obviously disagree with Jesus, and insist
that those still dead in trespasses and sins are capable of receiving and
accepting. S
John Vanderzyden
I set many such passages in front of you
above, but you do not like words such as these, since they don't fit with
"your" doctrine:
Luke 10:16 (NASB95)
16 “The one who listens to you listens to Me,
and the one who REJECTS you REJECTS Me; and he who REJECTS Me REJECTS the One
who sent Me.”
You keep changing the subject because it doesn't comport with "your" doctrine.
Sing F Lau
Luke 10:16... do you know who is Jesus
speaking of? God's children among the jews who are unbelieving that Jesus is
the Messiah.
John, if you want to continue here, do so
with decency, and make no false accusations. You may lose your privilege here.
Why do you accuse me of keeping changing the subject?
Except a man has spiritual life (i.e. born
again), he is incapable of spiritual activities, like perceiving and believing
and accepting spiritual things. That's the subject all along. You insist
otherwise... i.e. those dead in trespasses and sins are capable of believing
and accepting!
Sing F Lau
"You think that God made most men to be
vessels for destruction."
====
The Calvinists most certainly believe that!!!
But I read this... the innumerable of the
redeemed.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art
worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain,
and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and
people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and
priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of
many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the
number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the
Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and
honour, and glory, and blessing.
John Vanderzyden
Again a question: what is the means by which
the spiritually dead gain the ability to believe? What is given? And what is
the means of receipt? And what is the gift? Kindly justify ur answers with
Scripture.
I notice, also, that you continue to avoid the passages about receiving and rejecting. Allow me to ask again, for the fourth time: why do you keep avoiding these passages?
Sing F Lau
Again a question: what is the means by which
the spiritually dead gain the ability to believe ?
======
The spiritually dead MUST be born again first
by the Spirit of God... ONLY those whom God has freely and sovereignly made
alive have the ability to believe. The dead must first be given life BEFORE they can use the means - elementary.
The Spirit of God works the grace of faith in
those regenerated, thus enabling them to believe. And faith cometh by hearing.
Which part do you not understand, or don't believe?
Sing F Lau
State each passage and I will deal with each
one by one. I don't avoid Scriptures. If I am of your spirit, I say you are
blind to the answers I have given. Thanks. Must go to work now.
John Vanderzyden
Now you are calling me blind. That is typical
of those who insist conformity with a special theological slant that is only
justifiable by a few verses.
Like the Calvinist, you are saying that a man
does nothing. God does everything in advance. This is divine determinism. On
your view, man chooses nothing and is not held accountable for his faith,
repentance, or obedience.
As I have shown extensively, you neglect many
parts of Scripture and instead cling to your preconceptions. You cling to a
tradition, instead of the Word in its entirety.
John Vanderzyden
Moreover, none of what you espouse pertains
to the gospel. Conformity to your view of unconditional election is entirely
unnecessary, and yet you treat others shamefully over such advanced and
peripheral issues.
Sing F Lau
"Moreover, none of what you espouse
pertains to the gospel."
=====
Then you are the most obtuse man I have ever
met.
Christ FREELY and SOVEREIGNLY giving eternal
life to sinners while they were still dead in trespasses and sins without them
doing anything (since they are incapable of any deed which should merit it) is
at the heart of the gospel - good news.
It is BAD NEWS if sinners dead in trespasses
and sins must perform the work of choosing and accepting the offer... Go, offer
a Big Mac to a dead man... and tell him you love him very much and make him a
great and genuine offer... and plead and persuade earnestly with him to accept
your offer. Good luck to you, and that dead man.
I thank God the gospel is this:
Eph 2:1-6
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in
trespasses and sins...
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to
the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the
spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation
in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh
and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his
great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath
quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us
sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.
Sing F Lau
Like the Calvinist, you are saying that a man
does nothing. God does everything in advance. This is divine determinism. On
your view, man chooses nothing, and is not held accountable for his faith,
repentance, or obedience.
===============
I didn't say that.
That confirms you are not only blind, but
obtuse and stiff-necked. If you have any quarrel with the Calvinist, here is not
the place. You CHOOSE to see a phantom if you think I'm a calvinist.
And since you can HARDLY represent me
correctly, you haven't earned the right to rave here - putting it very kindly!
<LOL>
I say that God must first give a man
salvation when he was STILL DEAD in trespasses and sins... then and only then, being spiritually alive, he is ENABLED and is capable of doing what God
requires him to do... then and only then he is capable of choosing to do the
will of God.
Life must precede the activities of life.
Christ declared it... "Except a man be born again, he cannot..." That
is a most basic maxim laid down by Christ Himself - you choose to be wilfully
blind and kick against this fundamental truth from the lips of Christ Himself.
And also, if this is just such a peripheral issue, why are you wasting time here???
John Vanderzyden
The reason why I'm spending a bit of time on
this issue is because I saw a post from you, in which you attempt to teach the
things of God with the precepts of medieval European men.
As I see in other debates, and in your shameful treatment of others on your own personal FB timeline, you have
nothing to support your claim.
You do not want to think about it. You do not
answer critical questions, and you change the subject. And then you insult.
Entirely unimpressive.
Sing F Lau
I'm surprised you are still wasting time
here!!!
You can't even state what I believe, and you
rave and foam here - that's pretty shameful, isn't it? If you wish to quarrel
with Calvin and his followers... take it up with them.
John Vanderzyden
But you sound much like Calvin, and you don't
even realize it. You also sound like Mark Driscoll.
I'm just trying to see if there is anything
of value here, since you made some tall claims in the OP.
Exactly what have you SHOWN us?
Sing F Lau
But you are a stiff-necked man who has made up
your mind that I'm a calvinist. That's your fault, not mine. I'm pretty much
against calvinism.
Begone, I have no time to waste with you who see Calvin's ghost here!
John Vanderzyden
And you teach others?
Sing F Lau
That's a question, right?
No, I state my beliefs.
Some may wish to learn, others may wish to
oppose; some agree, and others curse and rave. You happen to belong to the
latter category, and I don't give a hoot!
Linda Lancaster
Salvation is by GRACE (God's empowering)
alone, through faith (which is a gift from GOD). So it is all GOD; otherwise it
would be of works. God draws men unto Himself. Men do not voluntarily go
looking for GOD.
John Vanderzyden
Yes, regrettably, you have made it clear that
you don't give a hoot about much of Scripture, especially about receiving and
rejecting. Still there is no answer from you on this.
I do notice that you claim to be a
pastor/teacher on your profile. If this is how you teach, then you have much to
learn about comprehensive biblical interpretation.
Sing F Lau
Linda, salvation is by GRACE alone means
salvation is the gift, and not faith. Faith is an effect of salvation freely
given, a gift.
John Vanderzyden
Receive? Reject?
Sing F Lau
John, the spiritually dead cannot receive nor
reject spiritual things... You just won't listen to what the Scriptures plainly
declare. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned. A man who is spiritually
dead can't possibly discern spiritual things, thus much less be said to accept
or reject the gospel, which is the things of the Spirit of God.
You insist otherwise, i.e. dead man can
accept or reject your offer to him!!!
You are just wilfully blind, and refuse to read what I have said. I'm only repeating what I have stated.
Linda Lancaster
Acts 18:27 speaks of "those who had
believed through grace" (those who had, through the grace of God, become
believers in Christ). Paul says of the Philippians, "To you it has been
granted...to believe in Him" (Phil. 1:29). And in Ephesians 2:8, "By
grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the
gift of God." Though Paul likely means "that salvation is not of
yourselves," the point is similar. The ability to trust God for salvation is
sovereignly given, not generated by human effort (cf. Jn. 6:44, 65). EMPHASIS
OF EPH 2:8 "AND THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES". Grace is God's enabling
power in our lives, so again I must reiterate that we have nothing to do with
the thing called salvation because it is God who draws us.
John Vanderzyden
Sing, are you saying that Jesus is wrong?
Jesus plainly says that men with either receive or reject what He teaches. But
you are saying that He was mistaken.
John Vanderzyden
I accept all of the passages that you put in
front of me, but you are discard many, many more that I set before you. Why?
Sing F Lau
Salvation by grace - "grace" speaks
of the MANNER salvation is bestowed to the sinners dead in trespasses and sins.
THROUGH FAITH speaks of the BASIS of
salvation. "Faith" refers to the faithfulness of Christ... Learn this
truth well...
Rom 3:22 "Even the righteousness of God
which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for
there is no difference."
Gal 2:16 "Knowing that a man is not
justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we
have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of
Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no
flesh be justified.
Linda Lancaster
Yes, and the MANNER is by God's empowering
with the measure of faith that He gave us. Which for me means that we had
nothing to do with our salvation. Everything, the grace, the measure of faith- is given by a FAITHFUL God, who will not have any perish, but all come to a
knowledge of HIM.
John Vanderzyden
Yes, I know your position. That does not make
it biblical. The notion of grace doesn't even feature in the verses you give
here.
Men make choices, says Jesus. But you not
will deal squarely with His words.
John 12:48 (NASB95)
48 “He who REJECTS Me and DOES NOT RECEIVE,
has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last
day.
Linda Lancaster
When I backslid, I made the choice, YES. But
it was God, by His Holy Spirit who draw me back. It was Him who said "This
far and no further". I knew that it was God who drew me back. So then
after HIM drawing me back, I made the choice to come back to HIM. Before that I
was merrily going on my backslidden way and would have still been there if it
wasn't for MY SAVIOUR drawing me back.
Sing F Lau
When I backslid, I made the choice, YES. But it was God, by His Holy Spirit who draw me back. It was Him who said "This far and no further". I knew that it was God who drew me back. So then after HIM drawing me back, I made the choice to come back to HIM. Before that I was merrily going on my backslidden way and would have still been there if it wasn't for MY SAVIOUR drawing me back.
Sing F Lau
"Men make choices, says Jesus. But you
not will deal squarely with His words."
==============
You are just so wilfully confused.
Men do make choices...
The only choices sinners dead in trespasses
and sins make is ENMITY and REBELLION against GOD.
They are dead as far as their ability to make
choices in accepting or rejecting salvation. They have no capacity for
discerning the things of the Spirit of God (and I don't quote Scriptures
because I assume you know where the Scriptures say so) - much less accepting or
rejecting. They stand in need of salvation bestowed to them FREELY and
SOVEREIGNLY when they are incapable of making a choice of salvation.
God's children - those sinners dead in
trespasses and sins having been given eternal salvation freely and sovereignly
by God - are capable of making choices... which explains all the commands to
them to obey.
You choose to disbelieve the plain statement
of Christ, "Except a man be born again (i.e. given eternal life, raised
from a state of spiritual deadness to spiritual life, etc), he CANNOT.... he
CANNOT..."
Yea, let God be true, but every man a liar!
John Vanderzyden
So, you reject Jesus words. And instead
substitute your own.
I have given you verses, and you ignore them.
That is because you are insecure in your narrow hermeneutic.
Again, these are the words of Jesus:
John 12:48 (NASB95)
48 “He who REJECTS Me and DOES NOT RECEIVE,
has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last
day.
Why do you not listen to Him?
Sing F Lau
That's a good start. You bring a Scriptures.
Let's look at this Scriptures then.
Read this, and explain to me who is Jesus
speaking of... John 12:40 (KJT)
"He hath blinded their eyes, and
hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand
with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them"
- to God's children among the Jews, or
- to sinners dead in trespasses and sins.
You are a man addicted to sound bytes, and
are unaware of it!!!
Sing F Lau
We don't need to waste further time. Enough
has been said.
We are disagreed. I didn't say you need to
believe what I believe. You needn't get so worked up by what I believe.
John Vanderzyden
We didn't even get to disagreement. You did
not even start. You cannot justify your position, but you cling to it anyway.
Moreover, you dismiss the words of Jesus in regard to receiving and rejecting.
That is not my problem, and not merely a disagreement.
It is a grave error: disrespectful to the
Word of God, and to the work that Jesus did on the Cross. How can you dare
ignore what He says?
If this is how you study the teachings of
Jesus, then how can we rely on anything you post, whatsoever?
How very, very sad. 🙁
Sing F Lau
Thanks. You are right. Thank for you raving.
You COMPLETELY rejected Christ's word
"Except a man be born again, he CANNOT..." That's a real choice you
have made!
I will let you have the final say... and I will
leave this post.
Ann Atwood Fraley
My Arminian friends tell me that Christ's
death on the cross made them alive and able to accept. When they reject the
offer, they become spiritually dead.
John, and Sing, permit me to interject an
answer to John's scripture that he feels you have ignored. I don't know Sing,
nor do I know John. I just recognize the belief being stated by Sing, which is
that of my own church. Before I go to the specific verses cited by John, let me
lay a foundation with 2 Timothy 2:15. "Study to shew thyself approved
unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word
of truth."
We know that we are not admonished to separate truth from
falsehood in the scriptures, as there is only truth. So what are we rightly
dividing? Our doctrine teaches that we are dividing between two different
salvations taught and described in God's word. There are many instructions
given that use the word "save" and yet many other scriptures that
speak of a sovereign God who has chosen his elect children before the
foundation of world. So, how do we reconcile these seemingly conflicting verses
and teachings? (for example Romans 9:11-13).
The fact is that we have every
opportunity to 'save' ourselves from the consequences of sin here in our
earthly lives by walking in obedience to God. As a matter of fact, most of the
New Testament is written to us as a guide to the Godly life that leads to the
most fulfilled existence we can achieve. In the verses you cite from
Corinthians, there is not one case where the words eternity or anything other
than a reward is referenced. Our reward here is favour with God. It's not even
riches or acclaim, but peace with our Saviour and Creator. In verse 18, we read
"What then is my reward? That, when I preach the gospel, I may OFFER the
gospel without charge, so as not to make full use of my right in the
gospel." You are equating the gospel with eternal salvation. The word
gospel in scripture simply refers to the truth and good news of God's love for
us. That is what is being offered. Not eternal salvation, and it doesn't even
use those words. As an aside, I would also point out that this New American
Standard version is based on two foundational texts, one of which is the
"Codex Vaticanus", which is known for having many corrections and
gross omissions. Therefore, in any discussion with those who prefer the King
James Version of 1611 there will be a lack of respect for citations from other
translations. I am trying to go back and highlight other passages from the
verses you provided but this interface is requiring me to end this comment and
pick it up again. My apologies.
Ann Atwood Fraley
More on the concept of timely or temporal
salvation, an idea I almost never see discussed outside of those among
believers in the doctrine of Sovereign Grace; we know there is no discord in
Scripture. There can be no conflict or contradiction in a correct reading and
interpretation of scripture. Therefore, there must be a way to address the
seeming error between the notions of accepting or receiving salvation as
opposed to verses that state that eternal salvation is either all of grace or
all of works. (Romans 11:6) So, let return to 1 Corinthians. You have cited
chapter 9, verse 26. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as
one that beateth the air:
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it
into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I
myself should be a castaway. This is not a reference to salvation. This is
referring to his potential status as a failed preacher. He is writing this to
the church. They are all believers. If we apply your interpretation and
understanding, they have all accepted and asked for a home in Heaven, as has
Paul. Can Paul fall from grace if he does not keep his will and body under
subjection to the Lord? Is his salvation predicated on this behavior? Unless I
misunderstand your doctrine, I would say no. So how can this be a reference to
eternity? I would like very much to go verse by verse, but I find I need to
close and take care of getting a gift for my mil's birthday and help prepare
for my sister to move on to our property so you will excuse me, I hope. As and
exercise, please re-visit each verse you cited and see whether you can apply a
reference to salvation from the snare of this world in the messages and whether
they more aptly mesh with the verses that give a picture of a sovereign God who
has chosen a people and sent His son to earth to redeem them. Please consider
John 6:37 and the surrounding verses, with the caveat that the verses after 37
are written to those who have been regenerated (born again) and converted to
belief by the work of God. Other wise, they clash with the familiar verses
about those who come to Christ being given to him by God. If we are all given
to Christ to save, as your belief would hold, then we are all saved and yet we
both believe in a literal Hell. Also, in Matthew 1:21 it says "
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins." It does not say he will make it possible to be saved or that he will offer salvation. It says he SHALL save HIS people from their sins. It is much harder to reconcile a view of offered salvation with these accounts than it is to consider a temporal salvation taught alongside an unconditional gift of grace to be with our Lord forever in Heaven. And also, btw, we believe the vast majority of mankind is included in the elect, as opposed to Calvin who did not.
Sing F Lau
Ann, that's enough material for DTh!
Ann Atwood Fraley
Haha.
Some things don't have short answers.
Oh, and what is DTh?
Sing F Lau
Some kind of title behind some very 'learned'
folks! Don't know what that is. Maybe "Don't Trust him!"
Ann Atwood Fraley
Oh, Doctor of Theology. haha
Ok, then. I want college credit.
"Don't trust him" haha. Sounds like "piled higher and deeper" for Phd
Jeff Heuer
I love the picture, it says it all.
Maybe it would be better to dig up the dead and shove the food down their throat.
