Pied Piper of HamelinAn Ossie man reading John Piper's book on regeneration 'Finally Alive', commented:
This is a book by John Piper about Regeneration. What it is and what role we play in becoming Born Again. It's a great book, I have read it before and I wanted to go through it again. I recommend it highly.
Iceland
Hard to believe I know, really great book though, you should have a look.
Balanony
That's a very good book about understanding the why and how of being born again.
I am so blessed with that book not only with its content but because of finding out that John Piper does not receive any royalty from his work.
Sing F Lau
Is Piper a gospel regenerationist, i.e preaching and hearing of the gospel is the necessary instrument the Holy Spirit uses to regenerate sinners dead in trespasses?
Iceland
Sing: "Is Piper a gospel regeneration..." I am not sure I understand that Q brother.
However I do understand the rest of the Q and the answer is an emphatic YES!
God Bless.
Sing F Lau
Thanks. So he is a gospel regenerationist as all new school baptists are!
Iceland
Do you propose a biblical alternative?
I might feel it important to suggest this gospel regeneration position is not "new" at all among baptists.
Sing F Lau
Gospel REGENERATION may sounds very attractive to many but it is foreign to the Scriptures, and foreign to the beliefs of the old school baptists. The Bible teaches immediate and direct regeneration WITHOUT gospel preaching. It teaches gospel CONVERSION.
Iceland
ok, I see what you're getting at, you're [chronologically] separating "REGENERATION" from, "CONVERSION". Which I am fine with and so is Piper and the historic Baptist movement.
Piper and this book both present a gospel enacted "CONVERSION"... not "REGENERATION" and that the process of regeneration is a sovereign act of God done prior to the event of conversion.
Rom 10:17, "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ."
Sing F Lau
I am a little confused.
I asked, Is Piper a gospel regeneration[ist], i.e. believing that preaching and hearing of the gospel is the necessary instrument the Holy Spirit uses to regenerate sinners dead in trespasses?
You said you do understand the latter part of the question and the answer is an emphatic yes.
When you say 'historic movement' what exactly do you refer to?
Which translation did you quote Rom 10:17 from?
Mine read, "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."
Faith is drawn out by the hearing of the gospel. But the ability to hear comes from the life-giving Person called the word of God. See John 1:1, Heb 4:12.
Re 19:13 "And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God."
Changing the 'word of God' to 'word of Christ' has completely changed the meaning!
Iceland
Yes sorry for the confusion. The question wasn't worded in such a way that it's intent came across. Which is why I was confused.
There are occasions when interchanging the terms Regeneration and Conversion are completely unacceptable, but th...ere are times when it's not so much a problem. If I understood you had set them apart for the purpose of the question I could have answered clearly in the first. But I wasn't aware of this.
When I say historic movement I am referring to the baptistic line traceable to the apostolic fathers.
The translation used in my version of Romans 10 passage is, is ESV.
Greek rendering [Wescott & Hort]
"αρα η πιστις εξ ακοης η δε ακοη δια ρηματος χριστου"
Iceland
Vincent's Word Studies
"Word of God (ῥήματος Θεοῦ)
The best texts read of Christ [χριστου].
...
Probably not the Gospel, but Christ's word of command or commission to its preachers; thus taking up except they be sent (Romans 10:15), and emphasizing the authority of the message. Belief comes through the message, and the message through the command of Christ."
Just some food for thought......
Sing F Lau
ESV reads: "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ."
KJV read: "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing [cometh] by the word of God."
Assuming ESV to be true, please explain how the hearing comes through the... word of Christ?
You have turn Rom 10:13 into something completely different by saying: "Belief comes through the message, and the message through the command of Christ."
The activity of hearing is now morphed into 'message'!
The simple question must be answered: HOW does the activity of hearing come about? It think it is quite obvious that that ability must come from a life-giving source... and that is not other than the life-giving Logos of God, i.e. the word of God.
Christ Himself is the source of life that give the ability to hear...
I wonder who decide what is the best text!
Iceland
I'll leave this discussion here, the answers you seek I'll also leave to your further study as I have not the liberty of my time to delve here.
Thanks for the discussion. [hardly began yet! sing]
God Bless
Sing F Lau
"This is a book by John Piper about Regeneration. What it is and what role we play in becoming Born Again. It's a great book, I have read it before and I wanted to go through it again. I recommend it highly."
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You said the book is abou...t 'what role we play in becoming born again' - that little note gave everything away... 'what role we play in becoming born again' - as if those dead in trespasses and sins can do anything in becoming born again!
And there are so many preachers who believe that their preaching is needed to facilitate the Holy Spirit in his work of regeneration.
That explains for my initial inquiry.
Iceland
Sing, you wrote, "''what role we play in becoming born again' - that little note gave everything away... 'what role we play in becoming born again' - as if those dead in trespasses and sins can do anything in becoming born again!
You're misguided here friend. Allow me to use piper's own phraseology from the book.
What role does the dead man play in becoming resurrected? He rises! That's it. He is a recipient of the resurrection, no more. Like Lazarus dead in his tomb, he is raised to life by a sovereign work of God; so we may ask what role does he play? The only correct answer is, he is the one who raises, no more, no less.
If it's asserted that the dead play a role in their own 'being raised to life' then this does not necessarily propose a synergistic mode of their resurrection at all, as you've concluded. Nor does Piper teach this. He teaches that being a recipient of grace and regeneration is not a work but simply an involvement, or a 'part to play'. Be careful not to read to much into the words, 'part to play' this phrase is only meant to suggest that if God works salvation in a dead soul the 'Role' the dead soul plays is non-volitional and inactive.
You said, "'what role we play in becoming born again' - as if those dead in trespasses and sins can do anything in becoming born again!"
There's your issue.
Suggesting one has a role to play DOES NOT ASSET THAT THEY DO ANYTHING in becoming born again except they are BORN AGAIN. That's it!
And indeed they are, "...not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." John 1:13.
Conner
I've read that Piper is a 7 point Calvinist are you also? I looked on your wall but cannot tell from that. However the above seems to suggest that you are. If so here is a question, does God have to know everything? People assert God knows everything, my Pastor asserts God can choose not to know. Do you agree with that?
Sing F Lau
That is the whole problem.
Ever heard of the unanimous saying of old school theologians: in regeneration the regenerated is 'absolutely PASSIVE'?
Piper performed theological gymnastics around that old ancient truth... But words have meaning,... do they not?
Insisting having a role in an event but actually completely passive and doing nothing, except being acted upon - that a serpent double talk to me. May be English is not my native tongue.
The dead soul plays a role, but that role is non-volitional and inactive - what silly gibberish!
Piper sure does have disciples
Iceland
I think your lack of english competency has been our challenge throughout this entire conversation.
"The dead soul plays a role, but that role is non-volitional and inactive - what silly gibberish!"
Saying the dead are a PART [synonymous with... 'Role'] in their raising from the dead asserts no acting of their own but receiving, is not silly gibberish whatsoever. After all, was Lazarus not playing a role in his own resurrection? Of course he was, he was the one who was raised. Did he work, act or perform anything to make that resurrection possible? NOT AT ALL! But he WAS involved, otherwise he was not raised. Saying that one plays a role, [in english anyway] suggests no more than that they are in attendance when the miracle occurs.
Piper's statement is completely harmonious with the old theologians but more importantly he's position is scriptural.
It is most apparent you'd decided Piper's position was un-biblical at the outset and no matter what you have heard from then on you were not going to let him off.
Have you read the book?
Obviously no!
Perhaps it's time to climb down fro them dizzying heights of your moral high horse and set aside your judgement until you actually read the work listed above. Suspend all judgement and comments until then. [silly way to divert the issue, sing]
Good day.
Sing F Lau
Sorry sir, I learned my English from the kangaroos during my years in the Australian outback!
"Suspend all judgment and comments until then."
Mama always said, no need to stick your head into the garbage bin to know that it stinks to the heavens
At least these junk is worth recycling!
