A picture of the Sungai Dua Church

A picture of the congregation of Sungai Dua Church
(taken on 23rd Jan 2011 - after morning service)

Click on the picture to view a bigger picture.

These are truly the beloved folks to me...

Piper's Having-a-role-to-play-but-does-nothing GIBBERISH

Pied Piper of Hamelin

An Ossie man reading John Piper's book on regeneration 'Finally Alive', commented:
This is a book by John Piper about Regeneration. What it is and what role we play in becoming Born Again. It's a great book, I have read it before and I wanted to go through it again. I recommend it highly.

Iceland
Hard to believe I know, really great book though, you should have a look.

Balanony
That's a very good book about understanding the why and how of being born again.
I am so blessed with that book not only with its content but because of finding out that John Piper does not receive any royalty from his work.

Sing F Lau
Is Piper a gospel regenerationist, i.e preaching and hearing of the gospel is the necessary instrument the Holy Spirit uses to regenerate sinners dead in trespasses?

Iceland
Sing: "Is Piper a gospel regeneration..." I am not sure I understand that Q brother.
However I do understand the rest of the Q and the answer is an emphatic YES!
God Bless.

Sing F Lau
Thanks. So he is a gospel regenerationist as all new school baptists are!

Iceland
Do you propose a biblical alternative?
I might feel it important to suggest this gospel regeneration position is not "new" at all among baptists.

Sing F Lau
Gospel REGENERATION may sounds very attractive to many but it is foreign to the Scriptures, and foreign to the beliefs of the old school baptists. The Bible teaches immediate and direct regeneration WITHOUT gospel preaching. It teaches gospel CONVERSION.

Iceland
ok, I see what you're getting at, you're [chronologically] separating "REGENERATION" from, "CONVERSION". Which I am fine with and so is Piper and the historic Baptist movement.

Piper and this book both present a gospel enacted "CONVERSION"... not "REGENERATION" and that the process of regeneration is a sovereign act of God done prior to the event of conversion.

Rom 10:17, "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ."

Sing F Lau
I am a little confused.
I asked, Is Piper a gospel regeneration[ist], i.e. believing that preaching and hearing of the gospel is the necessary instrument the Holy Spirit uses to regenerate sinners dead in trespasses?

You said you do understand the latter part of the question and the answer is an emphatic yes.

When you say 'historic movement' what exactly do you refer to?

Which translation did you quote Rom 10:17 from?

Mine read, "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

Faith is drawn out by the hearing of the gospel. But the ability to hear comes from the life-giving Person called the word of God. See John 1:1, Heb 4:12.

Re 19:13 "And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God."

Changing the 'word of God' to 'word of Christ' has completely changed the meaning!

Iceland
Yes sorry for the confusion. The question wasn't worded in such a way that it's intent came across. Which is why I was confused.

There are occasions when interchanging the terms Regeneration and Conversion are completely unacceptable, but th...ere are times when it's not so much a problem. If I understood you had set them apart for the purpose of the question I could have answered clearly in the first. But I wasn't aware of this.

When I say historic movement I am referring to the baptistic line traceable to the apostolic fathers.

The translation used in my version of Romans 10 passage is, is ESV.

Greek rendering [Wescott & Hort]

"αρα η πιστις εξ ακοης η δε ακοη δια ρηματος χριστου"

Iceland
Vincent's Word Studies
"Word of God (ῥήματος Θεοῦ)
The best texts read of Christ [χριστου].
...
Probably not the Gospel, but Christ's word of command or commission to its preachers; thus taking up except they be sent (Romans 10:15), and emphasizing the authority of the message. Belief comes through the message, and the message through the command of Christ."

Just some food for thought......

Sing F Lau
ESV reads: "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ."

KJV read: "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing [cometh] by the word of God."

Assuming ESV to be true, please explain how the hearing comes through the... word of Christ?

You have turn Rom 10:13 into something completely different by saying: "Belief comes through the message, and the message through the command of Christ."

The activity of hearing is now morphed into 'message'!

The simple question must be answered: HOW does the activity of hearing come about? It think it is quite obvious that that ability must come from a life-giving source... and that is not other than the life-giving Logos of God, i.e. the word of God.

Christ Himself is the source of life that give the ability to hear...

I wonder who decide what is the best text!

Iceland
I'll leave this discussion here, the answers you seek I'll also leave to your further study as I have not the liberty of my time to delve here.
Thanks for the discussion. [hardly began yet! sing]

God Bless

Sing F Lau
‎"This is a book by John Piper about Regeneration. What it is and what role we play in becoming Born Again. It's a great book, I have read it before and I wanted to go through it again. I recommend it highly."
======
You said the book is abou...t 'what role we play in becoming born again' - that little note gave everything away... 'what role we play in becoming born again' - as if those dead in trespasses and sins can do anything in becoming born again!
And there are so many preachers who believe that their preaching is needed to facilitate the Holy Spirit in his work of regeneration.

That explains for my initial inquiry.

Iceland
Sing, you wrote, "''what role we play in becoming born again' - that little note gave everything away... 'what role we play in becoming born again' - as if those dead in trespasses and sins can do anything in becoming born again!

You're misguided here friend. Allow me to use piper's own phraseology from the book.

What role does the dead man play in becoming resurrected? He rises! That's it. He is a recipient of the resurrection, no more. Like Lazarus dead in his tomb, he is raised to life by a sovereign work of God; so we may ask what role does he play? The only correct answer is, he is the one who raises, no more, no less.

If it's asserted that the dead play a role in their own 'being raised to life' then this does not necessarily propose a synergistic mode of their resurrection at all, as you've concluded. Nor does Piper teach this. He teaches that being a recipient of grace and regeneration is not a work but simply an involvement, or a 'part to play'. Be careful not to read to much into the words, 'part to play' this phrase is only meant to suggest that if God works salvation in a dead soul the 'Role' the dead soul plays is non-volitional and inactive.

You said, "'what role we play in becoming born again' - as if those dead in trespasses and sins can do anything in becoming born again!"

There's your issue.

Suggesting one has a role to play DOES NOT ASSET THAT THEY DO ANYTHING in becoming born again except they are BORN AGAIN. That's it!

And indeed they are, "...not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." John 1:13.

Conner
I've read that Piper is a 7 point Calvinist are you also? I looked on your wall but cannot tell from that. However the above seems to suggest that you are. If so here is a question, does God have to know everything? People assert God knows everything, my Pastor asserts God can choose not to know. Do you agree with that?

Sing F Lau
That is the whole problem.
Ever heard of the unanimous saying of old school theologians: in regeneration the regenerated is 'absolutely PASSIVE'?

Piper performed theological gymnastics around that old ancient truth... But words have meaning,... do they not?

Insisting having a role in an event but actually completely passive and doing nothing, except being acted upon - that a serpent double talk to me. May be English is not my native tongue.

The dead soul plays a role, but that role is non-volitional and inactive - what silly gibberish!

Piper sure does have disciples

Iceland
I think your lack of english competency has been our challenge throughout this entire conversation.

"The dead soul plays a role, but that role is non-volitional and inactive - what silly gibberish!"

Saying the dead are a PART [synonymous with... 'Role'] in their raising from the dead asserts no acting of their own but receiving, is not silly gibberish whatsoever. After all, was Lazarus not playing a role in his own resurrection? Of course he was, he was the one who was raised. Did he work, act or perform anything to make that resurrection possible? NOT AT ALL! But he WAS involved, otherwise he was not raised. Saying that one plays a role, [in english anyway] suggests no more than that they are in attendance when the miracle occurs.

Piper's statement is completely harmonious with the old theologians but more importantly he's position is scriptural.

It is most apparent you'd decided Piper's position was un-biblical at the outset and no matter what you have heard from then on you were not going to let him off.

Have you read the book?

Obviously no!

Perhaps it's time to climb down fro them dizzying heights of your moral high horse and set aside your judgement until you actually read the work listed above. Suspend all judgement and comments until then. [silly way to divert the issue, sing]

Good day.

Sing F Lau
Sorry sir, I learned my English from the kangaroos during my years in the Australian outback!

"Suspend all judgment and comments until then."

Mama always said, no need to stick your head into the garbage bin to know that it stinks to the heavens. You already know it stinks from a long distance!

At least these junk is worth recycling!

Begetting, and Parenting - do you know the vast difference?

 What a glorious picture - seven mothers with their precious babes,
and all of them in the same church! GLORIOUS!

If you wish to comment, go to this link:

https://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/sing.f.lau/posts/185113351499651

Sing F Lau
Begetting is of UTMOST necessity to the BEING of a child of God. That's the sole work of the Triune God alone, without any instrumental means.

Parenting is of UTMOST importance for the WELL-BEING of the child that has been born. That's the multifaceted and arduous work of the gospel ministry.

Divine begetting alone makes a man fit for heaven.
Instrumental parenting is necessary to the well-being of God's children here on earth.

Sing F Lau
No begetting, no BEING.
No parenting, no WELL-BEING.
Please rightly divide the word of truth.
This will save yourself from lots non-sense, as well as shame.

Sing F Lau
Aren't begetting and parenting such distinct and separate concepts even in daily life?

In begetting, those begotten were entirely passive. Only the parents are active. Aren't these facts so plain that need no further explanation or proof?

In parenting, both the parents and the parented are active. The obedient responses of the parented is as necessary as the faithful discharge of parental duty for the WELL-BEING of the parented and family. Parents must employ all the means God has ordained to raise God-fearing and wholesome children. Pastors and teachers must utilized all the means ordained for the spiritual well-being of those God Himself, freely and sovereign, has begotten with eternal life.

But why so VERY many men and women, EVEN those who had begotten and raised children are so very confused about the same truth in the spiritual realm?

Marrow
Should anyone ever be encouraged to trust Christ...to repent of their sins and to believe on Christ...and does this believing have anything at all to do with their eternal destiny?

Sing F Lau
Mighty Midget Mikhail Morrow... good to hear from you! Are you still in the middle east, or already back home in the mid-west?

[Do you understand the difference between begetting and parenting?
In parenting, who do you deal with? Do you call upon all and summon them to your dining tables? Or do you address your children? ]

I am glad you are not tired of asking the same question!

The gospel, good news of what God HAS DONE, is addressed publicly to all the hearers. Only those who ARE SAVED... regenerated, will hear the gospel as the good news of God's power of saving them. The good news is intended for them only, and no one else. It is of no relevance whatsoever to others. Food is irrelevance to the dead. Food is for the nourishing of the living! Clear?

Whoever believes EVIDENCES that they are already made fit for eternal glory by God's free grace.

Knebel
Yes.

Marrow
Sing Song ding dong...I am back home safe and sound. Thanks for your prayers. Now to my question...would you ever encourage an individual to repent of his or her sin and trust Christ? I know about the public announcing of the gospel, I am asking about talking to an individual. Thanks,

Sing F Lau
Whether to one or many, the message and the method is the same.

I would preach the gospel, the good news of what God has done to save helpless sinners... and assure him that whosoever believes in Jesus Christ HAVE/POSSESS ETERNAL LIFE, i.e. ...HAS BEEN BEGOTTEN OF GOD... that's the good news of what God has done!

It is NOT the duty of the non-elect to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Mad and confused preachers imagined and concocted that duty.

God who did not give His Son to be the Saviour of the non-elect DOES NOT require the non-elect to believe a lie!

Let God be true BUT every man liar who dare malign God's truthfulness and consistency.

The good news is for the children of God... informing them of what God has done for them... that they may believe the truth of what has happened to them... NOT in order that sinners upon their believing, the good things will happen to them.

I am just repeating the same things I have told you years ago!

Marrow
It is true...you have been singing the same song to me for years...it's just a little off key. The fact is...you don't have good news for anyone in particular...you could never say to an individual who is under conviction of sin...Turn from your sins and turn to Christ...all you can say is IF you are one of God's elect it will be alright in the end. Not much good news to preach to every creature and to all the world.

Marrow
I believe in eternal election....not my business....God's business. I believe only those who are elected will come to Christ....but I am to make known Christ's victory over sin and death to all. I am to invite all...command all men everywhere to repent. It is foolish to think God would not require of a man to do that which he cannot do...that was error of Pelagius.

[Did God ask you to command those whom He did not give Christ as their Saviour to repent and believe that Jesus Christ is their Saviour? Or it is your own fanciful imagination?]

Sing F Lau
Brother Marrow, you are quite mistaken for saying that I have no good news for any one in particular - GRAVELY mistaken!

The gospel is good news to God's children - PARTICULARLY to God's children. I have good news PARTICULARLY and SPECIFICALLY to God's children. The gospel would be complete FOOLISHNESS to all others... EVEN to the elect that are not regenerated yet!

The gospel is good news to them that ARE SAVED:
"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which ARE SAVED it is the power of God." Please note the words "ARE SAVED" and "THEM THAT PERISH."

You are quite mistaken again, I have never said in all my preaching, "IF YOU ARE one of God's elect it will be alright in the end." That's your idea of what I do believe!

I do preach, "whosoever believe HAVE eternal life."

I DO NOT preach, "whosoever will believe shall have eternal life."

Disagreement is permitted.

Misrepresentation is not!

Marrow
My dear brother. You are right. I have characterized your message as a non-message because i have read your posts for above ten years now, in one forum or another and I have never seen you encourage missions. I have seen you dismiss those who have hazarded their lives to take the gospel to the lost. I have seen you call godly men bastards. I have seen you mock and disparage people who were busy preaching the Gospel to the lost.

It seems that you live to debate these things. i have noticed many of the PB brethren love to debate doctrine. I really don't know you personally. You may be out beating the bushes everyday giving the gospel to men and women...but somehow i doubt it. You may have the street corners covered with gospel tracts...but somehow I doubt it. If what you believe...the way you believe it, is true then there is no urgency about the gospel message getting out at all. It certainly doesn't matter in relation to the eternal destiny of anyone.

But it has been proven over and again.... If the Gospel is not given to the lost they will never cease to be children of wrath EVEN AS OTHERS. I am through... This is the most I have said in weeks...I simply have lost my zest for the debating..it is a grand waste of time. I know that I have offended you. So be it. i believe your view is hard line hyper Calvinism and is heresy of the first order. Believe what you will...we will meet one day at the Judgment seat of Christ and the Lord will decide between us. I imagine both of us will weep on that day. Good night.

Sing F Lau
Marrow@ " It is foolish to think God would not require of a man to do that which he cannot do...that was error of Pelagius."
=======
Who is Pelagius and what does he believe? and who is Mighty Marrow? Of the former I am ignorant... I am acquainted with the latter, an adjunct prof of theology!

It is INDEED foolish, and immoral and lawlessness too, to condition responsibility and duty upon ability. The whole human race, under the covenant of CREATION is under full and strict obligation to obey the laws under the covenant of creation. The moral creatures made in the image of God are under strict and exact responsibility to repent from their sin and obey God.

However it is far more foolish, more immoral and even blasphemous and calling God a liar to insist that God obligates every man to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ when He Himself has categorically and specifically stated that He sent Jesus Christ to redeem NOT every man, but a specific and particular people in the covenant of redemption. It is ONLY those embraced in the covenant of redemption that are under obligation to believe the truth of the gospel.

To insist otherwise is to insist that the God of truth requires some men to believe a big fat lie! Let God be true but every man a LIAR!

It would be foolishness and immoral and lawless to say that Sing is released of this obligation to pay Mr Marrow what he lawfully owes him just because he is a bankrupt.

It would be greater foolishness, and blasphemous too, to say that Sing is obligated to believe that Mr Marrow is his father.

Yamou
No where in the Word of God we are asked to save people, we are asked to preach and we are asked to teach, I do not know why we try to take the role of God and why we go around classifying people who are elects who are not. To know your brother there are fruits, look for the fruits. Look at the Conduct, Consecration, Cross of that person and you will know if he is your brother or not. We are to preach Christ: "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." We preach Christ either unto Salvation or unto Condemnation, and in both cases God gets the Glory and that is what is important. So let us not waste time, but get busy and see how we can preach or teach for the night is coming, and the Day of the Lord is at hand when He will bring every man's work into the test: "Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God."
May God bless you Brothers.

Yamou
Dear Brother Sing, You seem to be not happy, and yet you are one of the elect. Rejoice in the Lord always, be gentle and forgive. And do not worry about God's children God will take care of them, remember He is their Father.
We love you.

Sing F Lau
Marrow@ "But it has been proven over and again.... If the Gospel is not given to the lost they will never cease to be children of wrath EVEN AS OTHERS. "
=========

What a lie - 'proven over again and again'?????????

An elect by nature is in a state of sin and death, EVEN AS OTHERS.

God's elect CEASED to be children of wrath EVEN AS OTHERS when God, by His free and sovereign grace, effectually calls them out of their NATIVE state of sin and death to that STATE of grace and salvation... ALL this divine and sovereign work is WITHOUT the instrumentality of the gospel or the cooperation of man.

By God's free and sovereign grace, he is effectually called OUT OF that native state of sin and death, INTO that state of grace and salvation. Once that happen, the same grace will keep him that that same state of grace and salvation until his is glorified.

The gospel is the means ordained to INFORM, INSTRUCT, and EDUCATE such concerning what God has ALREADY DONE FOR, and IN them.

Nothing whatsoever can remove a man from the state of grace and salvation into which divine grace has brought him. It is not possible for a child of God to fall away from the STATE of grace into which God has brought him.

Whoever disagrees with this, let him kind present his case.

A child of God needs to be brought into the state of faith in Christ THROUGH the gospel ministry. A child of God can be deceived and become unbelieving through a false gospel ministry. He can fall away from the state of faith into a state of unbelief, but he can never fall away from the STATE of grace.

Once begotten always begotten. Nothing can undo it.
Once begotten, CAN BE converted, and OUGHT TO BE converted.

'OUGHT TO BE converted' OBLIGATES the pastors and preachers that Christ has given to the church to do the work of the evangelist, to gather His sheep into His churches here on earth.

Sing F Lau
Brother Marrow, it is a great PITY that you are so slow to perceive what I actually believe.

My opposition to gospel regeneration as a hideous lie, and my advocating gospel conversion as the truth are perceived by you as anti-mission. Yes, I do call those preachers who believe that without them there will be no regeneration as BASTARDS and not descendants of the old school baptists.

No, I don't live to debate. I do live to preach the gospel truth. I am a man under authority, obligated to the charge given to me.

My advocating gospel CONVERSION fill me with zeal to make the gospel truth known whenever there is God-given opportunity so that God's children may be delivered from lies, and be established in the truth... that they may be set free from being lies and false gospel, free from preachers of false gospels.

My ministry is IRRELEVANT to all except the children of God.
Like Peter, I am commanded to 'FEED... FEED... FEED' Christ's sheep and lambs. I have no role in producing the sheep and the lambs. Christ's did that himself. I am commanded to feed sheep and lambs that are already out there! That's what the whole great commission is about... and that's what the who gospel ministry is about! Somehow so many cannot differentiate begetting and parenting!

So many preachers see their ministry as instrumental to PRODUCING sheep and lambs. That is a hideous and abominable lie - usurping and supplanting divine work.

Brother Marrow, you are completely wrong to think that I have been offended by you or your thoughts. Completely wrong. You are my OLDEST friend on the internet... Brainy Brian aside.

Sing F Lau
Yam-out, I am not happy when people make God to be a liar, while they themselves are liars.

No one have wronged me, and there is no need of forgiveness. Brother Morrow is my good friend... and we have been talking about the things of the Lord for a loooooong time. It is hard for him to understand me because of his belief system.

If I have been rough or harsh, then I thank you for the reminder to be gentle. The woolly headed need not gentleness but firm words.

Marrow
‎:) Woolly headedness I readily admit to. To announce the Gospel to all men is Christ's commandment. To do the work that God alone can do I have no desire. Regeneration is God's work. Taking the Gospel to every creature is what God has comm...anded His church to do.
I hate easy believism. I hate cheap grace...but I also hate the idea that the church is not to call a wicked world to repentance. I am repulsed by the idea that we should not call on every knee to bow in faith before Christ. He is worthy. Will God command an unregenerate man to do what he cannot do? Sure. God told Peter to walk on water thus telling a man to do something that it was physically impossible for him to do. Soooo...there are other instances of that same thing. I cannot discount Whitefield, Spurgeon, and even Wesley...were these men lost? Did they damn souls? I know they did not save them but I do believe God used the message they proclaimed to save the lost. I protest against you and your comrades falsely suggesting that men of my persuasion believe that we in someway save people. Not at all...it is All of God's grace. He doesn't need me or you...He could write the message in the stars...but he has chosen to use men to spread the message. He could have healed every afflicted person in the world but he chose 12 and sent them out to heal (among other things). God has given us pattern in the NT. I hear Paul praying over unregenerate Israel...I see him telling a king...I wish you were a Christian...was Paul out of God's will in giving his testimony to that lost man that day? Shouldn't we all be doing the same thing? Was Paul preaching the gospel to lost people on Mars hill or feeding sheep?

Oh well...I still feel like we aren't getting anywhere..and I have already spent more time on this than I wanted to. But it is really hard to let some things go. To mis-represent the theology and poured our blood of so many who have paid an awful price to take this message to the masses is just terribly wrong to me.

Sing F Lau
Marrow, you will continue to believe what you want to believe despite what the Bible plainly says. You just don't care what the Scriptures say.

You insist 'no preaching, no regeneration.'
You insist that God needs you to help him give life to... the dead.
I insist that God alone must give life to the dead, without the help of anyone, not even Mighty Morrow.

I insist 'no preaching, no conversion.'
I insist that God has graciously ordained and appointed the gospel ministry for the instruction and edification of His children, and He commanded the gospel to be preached to them scattered all over the world.

Do you see the big difference?

3 ¶ Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

The faith (a body of truth) was delivered to the saints, to feed them. Saints exist first by God's regenerating work. The gospel preacher brought the good news to them.

Sing F Lau
Mighty Marrow, see what Apostle Paul wrote in Romans. Please deal with the Scriptures below. Otherwise hold thy peace. Thanks.

Roman 15:
20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon an...other man’s foundation.

### Apostle Paul was writing to people who have never heard the gospel.

Romans 1:
13 Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.
14 I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise.
15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.

### Apostle Paul was earnestly desirous and under great sense of urgency to preach the gospel to them.

Romans 1:
5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among ALL NATIONS, for his name:
6 Among whom are ye also THE CALLED of Jesus Christ:
7 To all that be in Rome, BELOVED of God, CALLED to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

### Please note very carefully that Apostle Paul is writing to those in Rome who are ALREADY the ‘called of Jesus Christ’, ‘beloved of God,’ and ‘called saints’. Such are found among ALL nations (ethnesin- from which we get ‘ethnic’), i.e. among all people groups. Apostle Paul is writing to such in Rome.

His apostleship/apostolic ministry is intended for those whom he describes as ‘the called of Jesus Christ,’ ‘beloved of God,’ and ‘called saints.’ God is their loving Father, and Jesus Christ called them is Lord over them.

Therefore Apostle Paul’s writing to these people must never be understood as teaching them HOW they can become the ‘called of Jesus Christ’, ‘beloved of God,’ ‘saints,’ and children of God. They ALREADY are such, and are such without and before the hearing of the gospel.

The popular lie of ‘gospel regeneration’, i.e. gospel preaching is the necessary prerequisite for regeneration is repudiated by the plain testimony of Scriptures.

Q1. When and how are they the called of Christ?
Q2. When and how are they the beloved of God?
Q3. When and how were they called saints?
Q4. Why is God already their Father, and they God’s children?
Q5. Why is Jesus Christ already their Lord?
Q6. How did Paul come to know of these Romans whom he has not met or preached to?

Marrow
Q1. We don't know when they were called.
If you read the last of the book you will find that there were several groups of believers in Rome before Paul wrote to them.
Q2 They were beloved of God from all eternity in Christ.
To answer the rest of your questions I simply say read the last chapters of the book and you find the connections Paul had with them.

Again i protest...I do Not believe God "needs my help" to regenerate anyone any more than Christ "needed" the disciples to heal anyone in Judea. That is what makes your teaching false. You say I believe something ...then shoot what YOU say i believe down. I deny that God needs me or anyone else to do anything. But I do affirm that He has chosen the message preached to save those who will believe.

Sing F Lau
Brother Morrow, I have to say that you are speaking different things from different sides of your mouth.

From one side, you INSISTED that gospel ministry is INDISPENSABLE in God's work of regenerating dead sinners.

And now, you are denying that same thing by saying that God DOES NOT need your preaching to regenerate anyone.

Please make up your mind!

Sing F Lau
Q1. We don't know when they were called. If you read the last of the book you will find that there were several groups of believers in Rome before Paul wrote to them.
========

ONE THING we can MOST DEFINITELY and CERTAINLY KNOW.
They were called BEFORE Apostle Paul brought the gospel to them.

You will insist that they have heard the gospel from someone else. Then you need to explain Apostle Paul's SOLEMN words in Roman 15:20 "Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man’s foundation."

Many choose their own ideas, and would rather slander Apostle Paul as a liar.

If they have heard the gospel from another source, then Apostle Paul appears to be the most presumptuous and arrogant of men... his sense of urgency and earnest desire to bring the gospel to them are entirely misplaced and deluded!

You can't have the cake and eat it too.

Sing F Lau
Marrow@ " But I do affirm that He has chosen the message preached to save those who will believe."

To save those who believe - Amen!
Save in what sense? Save from WHAT?
Whatever, it is a salvation conditioned on believing, isn't it.
...
One who is able to believe is ALREADY REGENERATED and SAVED from sin and death, completely fitted for eternal glory.

Yes, the gospel ministry is ordained to save God's CHILDREN, in what sense does the gospel ministry save God's children? Do you ever ask and think on this?

A salvation that is conditioned on believing CANNOT include regeneration, don't you agree? An UN-regenerated man SIMPLY can't believe, isn't that plain and clear?
"Except a man be born again, he CANNOT..." have you forgotten that declaration.

A salvation conditioned on believing is DISTINCT and DIFFERENT from the salvation that is by the free grace of God alone!

Why can't an adjunct prof in theology distinguished that salvation that is by the free grace of God (THE CAUSE), and the salvation that is conditioned upon the responses of God's children (THE EFFECT/FRUIT) ?????????????????????????????????????

Sing F Lau
Yam-out, yam out please!
If you want to remain ignorant, please do so.

Do not say the Scriptures does not speak LOUD and CLEAR enough whether God needs the aid of preachers in His activity of begetting His children.

...If you want some generalities, this is the not the place. So, if you can't stay strictly to the doctrine being discussed... hold your peace. I am being very polite to you.

Did the mid-wife from the maternity ward assist you to father your children? If she did, then God needed your help in fathering His children too.

What good work am I doing? You are really interested? Come and see. I live in a militantly jihadist-land.

Marrow
Yamou...thank you. Do you see the reaction you get when you talk about actually DOING something ? Let me straighten you out..they say. You need to be selling cars they say...Yam out...they say...Not a breath of encouragement in the work... of God.

Sing..If I am wrong and you are completely right...do I do harm by believing that God uses the preached word to effect his purpose of salvation? Do I hinder God's election? Do I keep God's name from being known across the world? I do not believe I am wrong...but in the grand scheme of things how does it change anything if I am? But if you are wrong...and you discourage someone from preaching Christ to the lost, (perishing), unsaved, and from commanding them to come to Christ and from making the Name of Christ great throughout the world...what harm you have done. So, tell me the difference please.

Richard...good analogy...mid-wife. The mid-wife does not produce the life. The mid-wife does not determine the time of the birth. The mid-wife does not affect the conception. All the mid-wife does is encourage and instruct the person who is in the throes of birth. The Spirit of God does the actual birthing in the spirit of the individual creating a new, resurrected spirit, indwelt by the Holy Spirit. All of that is invisible and mysterious but the evidences that a life has been formed within are unmistakable. So...thank you That is what I want to be a good mid-wife.

Sing F Lau
Morrow, the subject of discussion is between begetting and parenting.

You insist that you play are crucial and essential part in God's work begetting His children, i.e. without your work of preaching the gospel, there would be no regeneration. Then of course you turn around and deny it... that God does not need your help in regenerating the elect who are dead in trespasses and sins.

You say you want to be a good mid-wife... but you also insist that you have a role to play in the begetting of life! Mid-wives deliver the lives that are already conceived without her playing any role.

That is the particular point of truth under consideration. So, stick to it.

And if you are preaching in order to convert God's children (elect regenerated by the Spirit without the preachers' ministry whatsoever) then you are doing your work. But if your claim that you are helping God regenerate the elect dead in trespasses and sins, then I say your are an IMPOSTOR, usurping the sole prerogative of Christ's Spirit.

Your error cannot diminish any of God's work... but you have make false and lying claim... like the silly midwife who claimed that she HAD assisted you in begetting the life she also helped delivered. That's presumptuous at best, and a blasphemous usurpation at worst. But there are preachers like that.

Why should the truth of gospel conversion discourage or hinder anyone from preaching the gospel? Why? Isn't converting God's children to the truth so great a work?

Why must it be the lie of 'gospel regeneration' be the basis of your ministry? Do your feel more important or useful or worth because you have a role in BEGETTING God's children?

Why are you not content with PARENTING God's children - in FEEDING and OVERSEEING God's children? Didn't Christ command you to FEED, FEED, FEED?????????? Why do you insist a role in BEGETTING?

Why brother Marrow?

Sing F Lau
Marrow@ Yamou...thank you. Do you see the reaction you get when you talk about actually DOING something ? Let me straighten you out..they say. You need to be selling cars they say...Yam out...they say...Not a breath of encouragement in t...he work... of God.
========
Actually doing something is not the issue here. If that's the topic discussed, then we can share what we are doing, and how we can improve what we are doing, and how we should be doing that things sanctioned by Scriptures...

I am busy enough with the few things the Lord has entrusted me to do... There are a thousand and one thing that needed to be said... and have their proper place and time.

Marrow
Dear brother Sing, God takes the word that is spoken by my voice, or whispered on a south sea wind or croaked from a bird in the air. or delivered personally (IMHO He uses mostly humans to communicate the Gospel...but I make exceptions beca...use of cases like Abraham) and plants that living word into a dead human spirit. And God does that sovereignly. But you deny that God uses means in regeneration...and to bolster your argument you claim that I believe"I" am essential to the process which I deny. I do not believe that "I" am essential for God to do anything. I do maintain that God uses means..particularly the means of communicating the Good News that Christ put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself and is the way into the presence of the Father.

If this is not true, then you and I are reduced to helping people "find out" that they are already children of God. I was not a child of God until i heard the gospel, was convicted and convinced by the Spirit and the word, that I needed a Savior and bowed before Him in repentance and faith. I was a wicked sinner with no sense at all of God's reality until the night God saved me. He spoke to me Sing! He said to me in my heart "you are lost," He told me I needed to be saved. I believe all of that came as a result of the gospel being preached to me. Until I got under preaching that told me I was lost...God never spoke in my heart.

Now, as I understand the word, my experience lines up with the Bible. That is where i am...that is my experience. Like or lump it...it is what it is. To deny what God did in my life would be to deny Him. He planted His word in me by using a faithful preacher. I have watched it work for over 40 years over and over again. Here I stand, I can do no other.

Yamou
Mr. Sing I guess you need to learn English because I have never said that God needs my help, in fact I am a firm believer in the total depravity of man: his poverty, his nakedness, his helplessness and hopelessness without Christ. I said Go...d must get the Glory but I guess such a great theologian like you who has everything figured out and who has not left any secrets but revealed everything to us about God would not pass any glory to Him. As for my ignorance I love it because it keeps me humble and I am surely not seeking to be arrogant like you.
As for where you are living, I hope you are doing more then that!!! Because even devils live in churches.
As for being polite that is your duty as a believer if you are one.
And finally I will leave you with the word of God:
"For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones. "
God have Mercy on you and Help you.

Sing F Lau
If you folks cannot keep to the subject, hold your peace.

Yam-ou @"Mr. Sing I guess you need to learn English because I have never said that God needs my help, in fact I am a firm believer in the total depravity of man:"

Yamou, I DID NOT say that you said That God needs your help in regenerating His elect dead in trespasses and sins. I DID INQUIRE, whether you, like Marrow, believe that your ministry is indispensable to God's work of regenerating His elect dead in trespasses and sins. May be you to need to read better.

I INQUIRE again: Do preachers play any role in God's work of begetting his elect dead in trespasses and sin? Do preachers assist God in any way in His work of regeneration?

Or like you insisted, the Scriptures does not address this subject... that it is a mystery?

There are many who believe in total depravity, but also believe in total gospel regeneration - that the gospel ministry is absolutely indispensable to God's work of regenerating elect dead in trespasses and sin.

Just because one believes in total depravity does not immune him from the HERESY of gospel regeneration!

Yamou
Mr. Sing I do still insist that Salvation is a mystery and in fact not I but Gods Word.As for me assisting, helping or having any role in anything that God does: I tell you, God does not need anybody and nobody is indispensable before God; ...He who is able to make the stones lift praise and change them to bread does not need a pound of dirt like me.

I do believe that the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation, by His choice and who am I to tell God what to do, mine is to obey and not to try to be a Smart Alec. Some how you remind me of the followers of Mohammad, they say they believe in a sovereign God but they do not believe He can be in Human Design if He wants to.

You see the Gospel is not man made it is Gods plan, He came up with the idea of saving man whom He made, not I, not you.

Shall we sinful humans tell God what to do?

Sing F Lau
God's Word declares that the salvation is NO LONGER a mystery. Would you believe it, or would you go on insisting in your you want to believe anyway.

Here it is:
25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is ...given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

Do you read the words: "BUT NOW IS MADE KNOWN TO HIS SAINTS"?

It is a BIG mistake to say that God does not need a pound of dirt like you.

A pound of dirt has its rightful place... God is pleased to use a pound of dirt to do some good to His children... in parenting, in feeding and nurturing His children.

God most certainly does not need a pound of dirt in His work of begetting His children.

You are ranting and raving in so many direction because you can't making the distinction of what I am saying.

Yamou
Mr Sing do not take Gods Word out of context to suit your ideas of what God is and does. The passage you are quoting has to to do with mystery of the salvation of the Gentiles, it was not revealed clearly to the Jews that God is going to open the door to the Gentiles to be saved except after the coming of the Messiah.As for personal Salvation why do not you read what my Master and yours said:" The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."

So, now what smart answer you are going to give me.
You are beating around the bush, it is time you bear your responsibility and realize that to Obey is better then to Sacrifice.

Sing F Lau
Yam-out, you are so OBTUSE.
"The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."

This is EXACTLY what I have been saying: BEGETTING is entirely the sole work of the Spirit of God, WITHOUT any aid from man. Morrow and many others insist otherwise. Don't know about you... since you are arguing with me.

And that truth applies to ABSOLUTELY every one, "so is every one that is born of the Spirit."

Make sure you have your target chosen properly... otherwise you are just wasting your bullets... and wasting my time too.

Yamou
Good Mr. Sing we are getting somewhere, so you believe that it is a mystery and that we have nothing to do with it. Since it is a mystery and the word of God says:"The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law." So you and I should not worry about it and let us worry about the revealed things and how we can do them, would not that be better?

Sing F Lau
What do you mean that I believe it is a mystery? I am very puzzled! Are we actually communicating?

You are the one who insisted that salvation IS a mystery! Here are your words, "Mr. Sing I do still insist that Salvation is a mystery and in... fact not I but Gods Word."

O yes, let us mind about the revealed things.

And one of the reveal things is that God does not anyone in His free and sovereign work of begetting.

Another one of the revealed things is that God sent Jesus to save a particular people... and Jesus lay down His life for the same people, and the Holy Spirit begets individuals of the same people sovereignly, without a preacher's help. And these revealed TRUTH have implications in your gospel ministry.

As I said, a preacher who claims that his ministry is essential to God's work of regenerating His elect dead in trespasses and sins is an IMPOSTOR.

Yamou
Mr Sing did not you agree to the Words of our Master:"canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth" When God saves a person, He saves him and we do not know how and why and sometimes not even when. He has Mercy on whom He has Mercy, and is Gracious to whom He is Gracious; is that too difficult to understand, it is a mystery.
Particular, yes I agree but the problem he did not tell me who they are so I have to go to All the World to reach the particular.
Holy Spirit, definitely I can do nothing of or by myself, I need God in every second of living and thereafter.
God has the final implications on any ministry, even when we are foolish; God uses everything to Glorify Himself because He does not share His Glory with any, when God is Glorified I am most satisfied.
Our whole existence is about Gods Glory, I hope you know that by now.
Nothing is essential to God, He is the essence of all things.

Sing F Lau
Having said all you wanted, do you assist God in begetting His children?

So do those words, "canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth" rule OUT preachers' participation in helping God beget his children?

Didn't ALL them gospel regenerationists INSIST that as they preach their gospel or make hawk and peddle their offer of salvation, God bless their effort to regenerate?

I believe those words tells us that the begetting EXCLUDES any human effort or aid or assistance.

There is no need to bring a thousand and one things to the table... one matter at a time. When this issue is done, we can move on to the next topic you like discussed.

Yamou
Mr. Sing, God uses me and uses everything in his creation, we are vessels; do you doubt that God uses His creation to Glorify Himself. Do you have a problem with God using His creation? Do you want to limit God and tell Him what He can do a...nd what He can not do? Did God use Abraham? Did God use Moses? Did God use David? Did God use John the Baptist? Did God use Paul?
Are you trying to be Royal more then the King of Kings?
When God uses us, it does not mean that God needs us or for that matter we are assisting Him.
Mr. Sing Gods Word is simple why are you trying to complicate the issues?
Salvation is unto the Lord and we are too.

Sing F Lau
So does God use you in begetting His children?
That's not a complicated question, I guess.

If you DON'T want to rightly divide the word of truth, why ask so many question?

So, did God use Abraham, Moses, David, John the Baptist, and Paul to beget His children?

When God use you to feed His children, you must not presumptuously claim that God uses you to beget His children. Learn to speak the truth accurately.

Marrow
Sing, I do wish you would just quit one thing. Quit putting in your posts that I believe "I" am essential to anything God does. Your constant repetition of that when I have openly and often said that it is not so is bordering on slander. Yo...u are either lying about what i believe by saying things like :

"I DID INQUIRE, whether you, like Marrow, believe that your ministry is indispensable to God's work of regenerating His elect dead in trespasses and sins."......Or you have some mystical insight into my intents, motives and beliefs that I don't have myself.

I think that this kind of thing is what makes your arguments so obviously untrue. You can't seem to stick to simply putting forth your position. You have to mis-characterize your opponent's position and then debunk what YOU say he believes. It is called creating a straw man and then pulling it down. If you have the truth, simple scriptural proof will be enough to establish what you believe and the rest of us will have to deal with it. I don't think you realize that the "way" you discuss things (with ridicule and mis-characterizations) destroys the effects of any good thing you might say.

Sing F Lau
Marrow... you wrote these words... and they insist that without your preached word... blah, blah, blah. I do abhor misrepresentation as much as your do... but that's what your words tell me what you do believe. Please own up your own words. ...That's honorable. Otherwise just recant or admit the slip of tongue!

Your wrote these words:
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" I do ...maintain that God uses means..particularly the means of communicating the Good News that Christ put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself and is the way into the presence of the Father.

If this is not true, then you and I are reduced to helping people "find out" that they are already children of God. I was not a child of God until i heard the gospel, was convicted and convinced by the Spirit and the word, that I needed a Savior and bowed before Him in repentance and faith."
=====

You INSIST you were not begotten UNTIL the preached word played it INDISPENSABLE role. The preached word came, and through its instrumentality, you were regenerated by the Spirit. Isn't that what you words tell me? No? Am I wrong?

Marrow, I say, if you have not been born again PRIORLY... the gospel would be foolishness to you... and in your state of deadness , there would be no conviction... DEAD man cannot be convicted... nor convinced... God's children can... dead man hates the idea that he needs a Saviour... dead man is unable of repentance nor faith... All these acts presupposes PRIOR regeneration, apart from the preached word.

Just stick to the subject, please. No raving or ranting!

Marrow
Again...anything that disagrees with you is "raving or ranting." This is a mis-characterization. I do believe God uses the means of his word to regenerate men. But that is not what you charged me with. You said that I said "I" was necessary and "I" am not. I even went so far as to the say the word of God could come anyway God pleases for it to come, the south sea wind or by a bird. I also said that I believe God usually uses the preaching of the gospel. Sonow I have spent this valuable time correcting what you said I said. And that is the way you proceed. You state something and then respond to the people who espouse another view by saying they believe something they never said and then you tear down what they never said and gloat as if you have won some great point. Silly. Dishonest. Misleading. Un-Christian. Not worthy of response.

Sing F Lau
Marrow, you are a preacher, and God uses the means of the preached word to regenerate His elect. Then aren't you and other preachers made necessary instrument for the regeneration of God's elect? (God does not use south sea wind or bird to bring the gospel. See Rom 10:14 ' How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent?"

Why do you want to avoid such plain conclusi...on. Have I concluded wrongly?

OK, you deny that 'YOU' are necessary in God's work of regenerating the dead elect. Would you deny also that your preached word or that of any of any being is necessary in God's work of regeneration?

Are you a gospel regenerationist or are you a gospel conversionist? Is the preached word necessary for regeneration, or is it necessary for conversion?

You don't need to reply. Just be very clear what you do believe and state it clearly next time.

Marrow
God uses His word to produce life in the unregenerate so that they become regenerated by the Spirit and by the word. How that word is delivered is none of my business...except that God has called me to preach His word. I intend, by His grace, to do that. And I pray to see him work the miracle of regeneration by His Spirit and his word in the people I preach to.

Yamou
Mr. Sing I am going to give you a simple answer: I do not know, but if God used Mary to beget his Son, to be in Human Design; then I surely would not be surprised if He used me to beget His children.
Your insistence on imposing your convict...ions on others is not rightly dividing the Truth and is not speaking the Truth accurately.Convictions vary from one person to another but the Truth is absolute.
One more thing, do not presume and put words in our mouths and thoughts in our heads for the sake of arguing, take what we say literally and challenge it, not what you presume we meant or what you want us to say!!!

Sing F Lau
Marrow, thank you. You have stated clearly.
The preached word is necessary for regeneration.

Sing F Lau
Yam-out, thank you. You have stated clearly - that your preached word is necessary for regeneration.
I don't put words in any body's mouth.
If you think so, show it, and I will show that they have come of the horse's mouth first.

Yamou
Mr. Sing, Happy New Year.
What is important is regeneration, How God does it; is His business not mine!
Admitting you are wrong is a virtue, do not ever think it is a vice at least in our East.
I am still interested in knowing more about your... ministry, and how you and I can cooperate to lift up the Name of Jesus and to Glorify God.( Lift up and Glorify not Regenerate, see I am not worried about it because He is the Lord of the Harvest)
May God bless you.

Sing F Lau
Mr Ya-mout, how God does it has been plainly stated... so that man like you be careful not to stake any claim in it... like your preaching is a needful instrumental means to accomplish that. Get the point.

It is indeed His business... but it is a GREAT SHAME that so many stake a claim in that work, insisting that they play an indispensable role in the work which is EXCLUSIVELY God's alone.

I have publicly acknowledge my various errors many times. So I believe I do have that grace. I hope you have some measure too.

You want to cooperate to lift up the Name of Jesus and to Glorify God. You are most welcome... take a flight here, and there are plenty of work for you. There is a church plant that needs a pastor teacher - will you qualify? Come and find out. We are looking for someone who can FEED the flock... not someone who help God to regenerate dead sinners.