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| A biblicist avoids biblical questions! |
On Apr 23, 2008, at 10:37 AM, sing wrote:
Hello, Pastor We,
I am looking for a good church for my son who may be going to NUS soon, hopefully... I check the web for a conservative baptist church... and ended up with two choices of all that I checked and scrutinized.
I am glad X-BC uses KJV. Does your church has a fuller Doctrinal Statement? On the 'surface' I can agree with much of them. However, I do consider premillennialism as an error. The simple scheme of things from the Bible is that the second coming of Christ is accompanied by the general resurrection and the great judgment, and the eternal state of bliss and glory.
Could you please tell me a little more about X-BC?
I am not looking for a big church, Faithful biblical church does not usually attract true sheep - so I avoid a big church. I desire to look for a church where the Bible is preached FAITHFULLY, for that's the CHIEF cure appointed by God for all the evils both in the church and in the world - "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine." 2Tim 3:16-4:2.
There are many teachers of falsehood around, and they have many followers, 2Pet 2:1ff.
I don't mind a small church where the Bible is faithfully preached. I hope you don't mind me asking some simple questions to get an idea in my own mind about the matter. These are honest questions, needing simple answers. I would appreciate plain honest answers.
1. Does a person believe in order to get eternal life, or a person believes because he has been given eternal life (i.e. regenerated by the Spirit of God)?
2. Are repentance and faith the effects of eternal salvation by God's free grace, or the means to obtain eternal salvation from God?
3. Is "the just shall live by faith" a statement of fact about the just, i.e. the justified ones shall act in a certain way; OR is it a statement of an offer, i.e. what the condemned must do in order to be justified?
4. Is "whoever believes has eternal life' a statement of fact about the believing one or is it a statement of an offer, i.e. what the spiritually dead must do in order to have eternal life?
I would really appreciate your answers to the above question. They will give me an idea of how faithfully the Bible is preached.
Thank you.
In Christ Jesus,
Lau
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On Apr 23, 2008, at 12:39 PM, Pastor We wrote:
Dear Lau,
Thanks for your interest in having your son coming by to our church. No problem with those questions. We live in a day where falsehood is prevalent and it is always better to err on the safe side.
## I am glad X-BC uses KJV. Does your church has a fuller Doctrinal Statement? On the surface, I can agree with much of them. I do consider premillennialism as an error. The simple scheme of things from the Bible is that with the second of Christ, is accompanied by general resurrection and the great judgment, and the eternal state of bliss and glory.##
We believe there is a Christ coming for His saints ( the rapture and then the tribulation ); and a Christ coming with His saints ( after the tribulation, just before the Millennium ).
## Could you please tell me a little more about X-BC?
We are an Independent Baptist Church, not associated with any Mission Board; we believe in the local church, no universal church; believing in believer's baptism, no infant baptism; non-ecumenical; non-charismatics; presently support some 60 baptist missionaries; having 3 of our own out in the fields; believing in the succession of Christ's churches throughout all ages; believing that baptist churches are from this lineage of churches or Baptist churches have existed from the time of Christ; et al.
##I don't mind a small church where the Bible is faithfully preached. I hope you don't mind me asking some simple questions to get an idea in my own mind about the matter. These are honest questions, needing simple answers. I would appreciate plain honest answers.
The answer to your questions is that we are not Calvinists; nor Arminians; but biblicists, people who believe in the bible. We believe that there is the election of God as well as the free will of man. It is not our duty to reconcile them, and most of the problems came about when people tried to reconcile them. Only God knows of what criteria in which He 'elects'... perhaps, on the basis of the possibility or potential of the saved - like someone choosing football players to represent a school; he chooses the best. But the 'best' in the eyes of God may not be the 'best' in our eyes. God has His own 'criteria' and God sees the hearts.
## I would really appreciate your answers to the above question. They will give me an idea of how faithfully the Bible is preached.
We do our best to faithfully preach the Word of God.
God bless
Pastor We
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On Apr 23, 2008, at 3:48 PM, sing wrote:
Pastor We,
Thank you for your prompt reply.
## We are an Independent Baptist Church, not associated with any Mission Board; we believe in the local church, no universal church; believing in believer's baptism, no infant baptism; non-ecumenical; non-charismatics; presently support some 60 baptist missionaries; having 3 of our own out in the fields; believing in the succession of Christ's churches throughout all ages; believing that baptist churches are from this lineage of churches or Baptist churches have existed from the time of Christ; et al.
I am very pleased to read this paragraph.
## "The answer to your questions is that we are not Calvinists; nor Arminians; but biblicists, people who believe in the bible. We believe that there is the election of God as well as the free will of man. It is not our duty to reconcile them, and most of the problems came about when people tried to reconcile them. Only God knows of what criteria in which He 'elects'... perhaps, on the basis of the possibility or potential of the saved - like someone choosing football players to represent a school; he chooses the best. But the 'best' in the eyes of God may not be the 'best' in our eyes. God has His own 'criteria' and God sees the hearts."
I am not at all interested in whether X-BC is Calvinistic or Arminian. I am neither. I am very wary of Calvinists! Actually, labels are not helpful. Calvinists are such a mixed breed too. So also Arminians.
I believe the will of a man is determined by his nature.
I don't believe there is any contradiction in all that God has revealed. There is absolutely no need for reconciliation. To raise reconciliation presupposes contradiction, and that's a tacit admission that there are contradictions in God's inspired Scriptures. I know you don't mean that at all. I am indicating that words have implications.
I believe God has told us the basis of His electing sinner:
- "For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."
- It is most certainly not "on the basis of the possibility or potential of the saved. There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one....."
I would really appreciate it because the question deals with fundamental issues of salvation.
As a biblicist, a man who believes in the Bible, could you please tell me the Bible's answer to my simple questions? If you think the Bible has no answer to my questions, then also indicate so. I would be very grateful. If my questions are not clear, please indicate and I will elaborate. I just wish to know what is a biblicist's answers to these questions would be.
1. Does a person believe in order to get eternal life, or a person believes because he has been given eternal life (i.e. regenerated by the Spirit of God)?
2. Are repentance and faith the effects of eternal salvation by God's free grace, or the means to obtain eternal salvation from God?
3. Is "the just shall live by faith" a statement of fact about the just, i.e. the justified ones shall act in a certain way; OR is it a statement of an offer, i.e. what the condemned must do in order to be justified?
4. Is "whoever believes has eternal life' a statement of fact about the believing one or is it a statement of an offer, i.e. what the spiritually dead must do in order to have eternal life?
5. When Christ says, "Except a man be born again, he cannot see... he cannot enter..." - is He saying that regeneration must precede the activities of 'seeing' and 'entering', OR is He saying that 'seeing' and 'entering' is in order to be born again?
Just indicate what you believe, so that I may know what you believe what the Bible teaches on these basic matters.
Thank you very much.
Lau
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On Apr 23, 2008, at 3:05 PM, Pastor We wrote:
Dear Lau,
## I believe God has told us the basis of His electing sinner:
- "For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."
- It is most certainly not "on the basis of the possibility or potential of the saved" - "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth... There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one....."
The election is not based on God's 'whims and fancies':
1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
There are some criteria of God only known to Him in His electing process.
## As a biblicist, a man who believes in the Bible, could you please tell me the Bible's answer to my simple questions. If you think the Bible has no answer to my questions, then also indicate so. I would be very grateful. If my questions are not clear, please indicate and I will elaborate. I just wish to know what is a biblicist's answers to these questions would be.
## 1. Does a person believe in order to get eternal life, or a person believe because he has been given eternal life (i.e. regenerated by the Spirit of God)?
What you are asking is a Calvinistic question: does regeneration precede salvation or salvation precedes regeneration. I believe in the latter.
## 2. Are repentance and faith the effects of eternal salvation by God's free grace, or the means to obtain eternal salvation from God?
Same as above.
## 3. Is "the just shall live by faith" a statement of fact about the just, i.e. the justified ones shall act in a certain way; OR is it a statement of an offer, i.e. what the condemned must do in order to be justified?
Same as above
## 4. Is "whoever believes has eternal life' a statement of fact about the believing one or is it a statement of an offer, i.e. what the spiritually dead must do in order to have eternal life?
Same as above... I hold on to all the second statement.
## 5. When Christ says, "Except a man be born again, he cannot see... he cannot enter..." - is He saying that regeneration must precede the activities of 'seeing' and 'entering', OR is He saying that 'seeing' and 'entering' is in order to be born again?
Same as above.
## Just indicate what you believe, so that I may know what you believe what the Bible teaches on these basic matters.
We are not Reformed Baptists.
pastor we
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On Apr 23, 2008, at 7:07 PM, sing wrote:
Pastor Wee,
Thank you. I want to be sure. Please affirm if I understand you correctly.
After this, I won't ask any more questions.
Then I will forward the mail to Josiah Lau.
1. Does a person believe in order to get eternal life, or a person believes because he has been given eternal life (i.e. regenerated by the Spirit of God)?
We: What you are asking is a Calvinistic question: does regeneration precedes salvation or salvation precedes regeneration. I believe in the latter.
- I asked whether regeneration precedes BELIEVING or believing precedes REGENERATION. I didn't mention a word about salvation. I think you misunderstand my question unless you equate believing as 'salvation.'
- There are two parts to the question. I wonder which part is Calvinistic, and which part is not? I am asking a very simple question based on John 3:3-6. I am not interested in Calvinism. I oppose some of its heretical tenets.
- You might have a preconceived idea of where I am coming from.
The latter of the above question is: a person believes because he has been given eternal life (i.e. regenerated by the Spirit of God). You believe this part? Is this part Calvinistic?
2. Are repentance and faith the effects of eternal salvation by God's free grace, or the means to obtain eternal salvation from God?
We: Same as above.
- The latter of the above question is: repentance and faith are means to obtain eternal salvation from God. You believe this latter part?
3. Is "the just shall live by faith" a statement of fact about the just, i.e. the justified ones shall act in a certain way; OR is it a statement of an offer, i.e. what the condemned must do in order to be justified?
We: Same as above
- The latter of the above question is: "the just shall live by faith" is a statement of an offer, i.e. what the condemned must do in order to be justified.
- How would you understand a statement like, "the condemned who will believe shall be justified"? Do you believe this as the truth taught by the Bible?
4. Is "whoever believes has eternal life' a statement of fact about the believing one or is it a statement of an offer, i.e. what the spiritually dead must do in order to have eternal life?
We: Same as above... I hold on to all the second statement.
- The latter of the above question is: 'whoever believes has eternal life' means what the spiritually dead must do in order to have eternal life.
- How would you understand a statement like, "the dead who will believe shall have eternal life"? Do you believe this as the truth taught by the Bible?
5. When Christ says, "Except a man be born again, he cannot see... he cannot enter..." - is He saying that regeneration must precede the activities of 'seeing' and 'entering', OR is He saying that 'seeing' and 'entering' is in order to be born again?
We: Same as above.
- The latter of the above question is: "Except a man be born again, he cannot see... he cannot enter..." means He saying that 'seeing' and 'entering' is in order to be born again.
- How would you understand a statement like: "Except a man sees and enters, he cannot be born again"? Do you believe this as the truth taught by the Bible?
We: We are not Reformed Baptists.
Hello, I am not looking for an RB church. The RB believes much like you do!
I am looking for a church that teaches the Bible faithfully.
I know what the RBs believe. The RB believes much like you do!
Thanks for your patience.
If you are irritated by my simple and genuine inquiry, I apologize.
In Christ,
Lau
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On Apr 24, 2008, at 1:09 PM, Pastor We wrote:
Dear Lau,
Sorry, if I sound impatient. I didn't mean it that way. But the questions you asked are the usual questions that the Calvinists will ask and the verses you quoted are the same as the Calvinists will quote to support the belief that God elects without merits and based on His whims and fancies. The problem with writing is that we often ended up reading too much into it. Please accept my apologies if I sound impatient with your questioning. I believe you asked in all sincerity. It might be better if you call me to talk; it will surely leave out a lot of 'reading too much, both ways, for you and for me.
[Biblicist We believes in election, but he believes in a conditional election, an election based on human's MERITS. He sees God's sovereign election according to His grace and mercy as an election based on His whims and fancies!]
- I asked whether regeneration precedes BELIEVING or believing precedes REGENERATION. I didn't mention a word about salvation. I think you misunderstand my question unless you equate believing as 'salvation.'
- There are two parts in the question. I wonder which part is Calvinistic, and which part is not? I am asking a very simple question based on John 3:3-6. I am not interested in Calvinism. I oppose some of its heretical tenets.
- You might have a preconceived idea of where I am coming from.
The latter of the above question is: a person believes because he has been given eternal life (i.e. regenerated by the Spirit of God). You believe this part? Is this part Calvinistic?
This part is Calvinistic - because the logic is that he has to be 'regenerated first' or 'saved first' or 'elected before the foundation of the world' before he can believe. If he is not regenerated or saved first, he can't possibly believe because he is 'dead in sins'. And 'believing' has to logically lead one to salvation.
If one is 'regenerated first', he is already saved; so why the need to 'believe and be saved'? Regeneration is the same as 'salvation', that is the usual definition.
Our position is that believing precedes regeneration or believing leads to regeneration and not the other way around - 'And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." ( Acts 16:30-31 )
2. Are repentance and faith the effects of eternal salvation by God's free grace, or the means to obtain eternal salvation from God?
Same as above.
- The latter of the above question is: repentance and faith are means to obtain eternal salvation from God. You believe this latter part?
Yes, repentance and faith are the means to obtain eternal salvation from God.
Acts 3:19 Repent ye, therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
3. Is "the just shall live by faith" a statement of fact about the just, i.e. the justified ones shall act in a certain way; OR is it a statement of an offer, i.e. what the condemned must do in order to be justified?
Same as above
- The latter of the above question is: "the just shall live by faith" is a statement of an offer, i.e. what the condemned must do in order to be justified.
- How would you understand a statement like, "the condemned who will believe shall be justified"? Do you believe this as the truth taught by the Bible?
Yes, we believe the condemned who believe shall be justified.
Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. - Rom 4:2-7
Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
The verse you quoted in context has to do with the way a sinner is to be saved, that is, by faith:
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. - Rom 1:16-17
4. Is "whoever believes has eternal life' a statement of fact about the believing one or is it a statement of offer, i.e. what the spiritually dead must do in order to have eternal life?
- The latter of the above question is: "Except a man be born again, he cannot see... he cannot enter..." means He saying that 'seeing' and 'entering' is in order to be born again.
- How would you understand a statement like: "Except a man sees and enters, he cannot be born again"? Do you believe this as the truth taught by the Bible?
5. When Christ says, "Except a man be born again, he cannot see... he cannot enter..." - is He saying that regeneration must precede the activities of 'seeing' and 'entering', OR is He saying that 'seeing' and 'entering' is in order to be born again?
Same as above... I hold on to all the second statement.
- The latter of the above question is: 'whoever believes has eternal life' means what the spiritually dead must do in order to have eternal life.
- How would you understand a statement like, "the dead who will believe shall have eternal life"? Do you believe this as the truth taught by the Bible?
Your rephrasing means the same thing, if you look at it carefully. But your previous question indicates 2 different thoughts: The 'saved ones' will believe or will by believing it will lead one to salvation. We believe in the latter.
5. When Christ says, "Except a man be born again, he cannot see... he cannot enter..." - is He saying that regeneration must precede the activities of 'seeing' and 'entering', OR is He saying that 'seeing' and 'entering' is in order to be born again?
Same as above.
- The latter of the above question is: "Except a man be born again, he cannot see... he cannot enter..." means He saying that 'seeing' and 'entering' is in order to be born again.
- How would you understand a statement like: "Except a man sees and enters, he cannot be born again"? Do you believe this as the truth taught by the Bible?
We believe that it is through being 'born again', that is by repenting and believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, that one can then 'see' and one can then 'enter into the kingdom of God.'
Objectively, all the questions you have asked me revolves around this one prevailing thought: The predestinated 'saved ones' will eventually believe, or one needs to believe in order to be saved.
This will eventually lead to the issue of 'total inablility' or 'total depravity'. One, where the sinner is so dead he is unable to repent and be saved; and the other, he is so depraved that no matter how much good he does, he cannot saved himself, or salvation by works won't work.
Once again, my brief reply was because I see the whole thing is constantly revolving around the one same thought and to allay your apprehension, I thought it good to let you know that we are not Reformed Baptists; no intention to sound offensive.
God bless
pastor we
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On Apr 24, 2008, at 3:02 PM, sing wrote:
Pastor We,
Thank you for your kind reply. I do appreciate it.
I read from the Bible that God elected to save justly condemned sinners without merits in the condemned sinners whatsoever. There is no merit in the justly condemned whatsoever. That is why I believe that eternal salvation is by the free grace of God.
He who would attribute whims and fancies to God in any of His actions is much worse than a fool.
I am in Penang, so I don't think I will call you.
Should the Lord bring me to Singapore, I might just drop by your church.
I am too logical to accept any contradiction, real or apparent or imagined, in the Holy Scriptures. My basic premise is that God's inspired Scripture is absolutely harmonious and free from inconsistencies and contradictions. Inconsistencies, real or apparent, are to be attributed to wrongly dividing the word of truth.
Lau.
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p/s I didn't make any further comments to your reply. Thanks again for entertaining my inquiries.
